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I bought a gun in a group of guns from a pawn shop. I sold one of the guns to a friend. He pawned the gun three times when he needed money. The third time, the gun was found to have been stolen, and the police confiscated it. (NOT the BATF, the local police)
At a property hearing, the original owner was awarded the gun back. I gave my customer his money back. I went after the pawnbroker for my money. He didn't want to give it up, at least not until the Consumer Credit Commission contacted him and suggested that he do so. Presumably, he has a record of where he got the gun, and he can go after that guy.
The last person to have possession when the item is confiscated is not necessarily the loser. That's why we keep records.
This story smells. I never heard of the ATF confiscating stolen guns. That is what the local guys do.
All good info.I spoke with the ATF agent while at my FFL's place and he indicated that this gun was part of a collection that was stolen and that the gun would be picked up at my FFL's by the ATF.The ATF was tracking this gun and was on the phone with my FFL when I arrived to pick up the gun.So I never got the gun and am out 2800 bucks.
The ATF told me to contact the seller for a refund.That is when the seller told me to eat the loss.
All good info.I spoke with the ATF agent while at my FFL's place and he indicated that this gun was part of a collection that was stolen and that the gun would be picked up at my FFL's by the ATF.The ATF was tracking this gun and was on the phone with my FFL when I arrived to pick up the gun.So I never got the gun and am out 2800 bucks.
The ATF told me to contact the seller for a refund.That is when the seller told me to eat the loss.
Did the receiving FFL log the gun into his black book? If he called it in or did some kind of checking fine... the locals probably came and got it. Did you fill out the 44?? form to run the background check to receive it?
The ATF was on the phone to him just about 15 minutes after the postal carrier delivered the package.No log in occurred after that because he was told to hold the gun for ATF pick up.
I did not get to the point of any transfer paperwork or anything.
quote:Originally posted by jim50
The ATF was on the phone to him just about 15 minutes after the postal carrier delivered the package.No log in occurred after that because he was told to hold the gun for ATF pick up.
I did not get to the point of any transfer paperwork or anything.
Then you nor your FFL ever owned that gun.
Keep your Powder dry and your Musket well oiled.
NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
GunBroker support just responded to this issue and they said they would remind the seller that they are responsible for refunding my full payment.
We shall see where it goes from here.
This is a good example of the seller communicating in a clear as mud manner. Reading between the lines I think he KNEW the group was stolen and was doing whatever it took to cut his losses. I also believe he knows the guy that sold them to him in more than a casual business transaction sort of way.
Nothing else makes sense.
Seems pretty gutsy to ask a guy that never received an item to eat it. His business insurance should have fraud protection but maybe he does not have coverage.
quote:Originally posted by jim50
GunBroker support just responded to this issue and they said they would remind the seller that they are responsible for refunding my full payment.
We shall see where it goes from here.
But, don't blame the seller for "not checking". There is no way for a dealer to check whether a gun is stolen or not; the "stolen gun data base" can only be accessed by a Law Enforcement Agency. And, many LEA's prohibit accessing any files without an active case.
This why it's important for anyone buying a gun to get the seller's drivers license information. Better yet, photocopy the DL & take a picture of the seller if possible.
It doesn't matter whether or not the seller knew the gun was stolen; torte law has consistently held that the person from whom a stolen item was recovered is out the money unless he can trace it back to a previous possessor. In this case, the gun never transferred to Jim, so the seller should bear the loss; I suspect ATF will help him see that is his responsibility. Otherwise, you will need to contact the Attorney General in the seller's state.
But.... If the ATF was chasing this gun, why didn't they go to the FFL who sold it, or contact him about the serial numbers? They already had the other 4 that were stolen from this same FFL. They just let the sale happen. Maybe they want to bust this FFL for doing the sale?
quote:Originally posted by nmyers
Well, it helps when we have the complete story.
But, don't blame the seller for "not checking". There is no way for a dealer to check whether a gun is stolen or not; the "stolen gun data base" can only be accessed by a Law Enforcement Agency. And, many LEA's prohibit accessing any files without an active case.
This why it's important for anyone buying a gun to get the seller's drivers license information. Better yet, photocopy the DL & take a picture of the seller if possible.
It doesn't matter whether or not the seller knew the gun was stolen; torte law has consistently held that the person from whom a stolen item was recovered is out the money unless he can trace it back to a previous possessor. In this case, the gun never transferred to Jim, so the seller should bear the loss; I suspect ATF will help him see that is his responsibility. Otherwise, you will need to contact the Attorney General in the seller's state.
Neal
Pawn shops/ FFL dealer cant check BS....pawn shop checked one i bought 4 years ago and traded to a friend... friend traded to a pawn shop and it was stolen 25 years ago in washington st...dealer cant check BS....yea yhey CAN
That rifle is an antique, should have never gone through an FFL.
That seller should just piss on the fire and call in the dogs, I do believe the hunt is over.
W.D.
I can't help but feel there is something fishy about this. The guy has a A+ Excellent feedback on every other sales. I'm thinking that this might be some disgruntled employee that started this mess and the owner has no idea what is about to happen.
quote:Originally posted by select-fire
But.... If the ATF was chasing this gun, why didn't they go to the FFL who sold it, or contact him about the serial numbers? They already had the other 4 that were stolen from this same FFL. They just let the sale happen. Maybe they want to bust this FFL for doing the sale?
You are making assumptions to the time line that were not stated. It looks to me like the FFL sold and shipped this rifle prior to knowing it was stolen. Had he sold it after knowing it was stolen, he would be being prosecuted and his troubles with GB would be insignificant.
He purchased 5 rifles. He sold and shipped one. While it was in transit, the remaining four were confiscated from his shop, and he notified BATFU to where the fifth one was being shipped. BATFU notified receiving FFL to hold the rifle because it was stolen.
It is very possible this rifle was not discovered as being stolen for quite some time after the theft. Therefore the fact that it was stolen was information unavailable at the time the rifle was auctioned.
Proper thing to do, IMO, is return the money and it is probably a legal requirement because the buyer never did have possession of the rifle.
Nice trapdoor, by the way.
Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.
quote:Originally posted by select-fire
Response: (left on 3/4/2015) we are a lisenced gun shop we purchased 5 used guns batf said 3 monthgs later they were stolen and confiscated them he bought one they confiscated that we didnt take it the law took it we all lost
What is this "WE"? He purchased the firearms to resell. His big problem if he is receiving stolen goods. GB should suspend this moron immediately. I would go to the Post office and ask if the money orders can be stop payment. IF that dealer cashed them after BATFE notified him the guns were hot.. See if the Post office can tell you when they were cashed.
So the dealer Knew.. that some he purchased were stolen yet went ahead and listed and sold this one anyway. I would call that conversion.. taking and reselling property with knowledge it was stolen.
quote:Originally posted by nunn
I removed references to the actual auction, and since CaptFun has weighed in on the topic, I presume it is OK.
Ah Ha!!
I thought I was the only one who couldn't find out what in the wide wide world of sports you fella's were talking about!![;)]
I hope everything works out and the buyer gets his money back, the victim gets his gun back and the thief meets Bubba.
My FFL just called me and said the ATF had him ship the gun in question to them FEDEX overnite.He said they even arranged for a prepaid label.ATF also sent a transfer receipt to the dealer.
So the gun is gone and now I would like to see my 2800 bucks.
My FFL just called me and said the ATF had him ship the gun in question to them FEDEX overnite.He said they even arranged for a prepaid label.ATF also sent a transfer receipt to the dealer.
So the gun is gone and now I would like to see my 2800 bucks.
quote:Originally posted by jim50
My FFL just called me and said the ATF had him ship the gun in question to them FEDEX overnite.He said they even arranged for a prepaid label.ATF also sent a transfer receipt to the dealer.
So the gun is gone and now I would like to see my 2800 bucks.
Get the documentation from your dealer. Do the link I posted on the money order refund with the USPS.
quote:Originally posted by select-fire
Get the documentation from your dealer. Do the link I posted on the money order refund with the USPS.
I don't see how the buyer can prove that the MO was wrongly cashed or forged. The MO was properly cashed, and money properly changed hands. The problem occurred after the fact, and there is no reason to expect the Post Office to go after the seller for a refund of the money.
This is between the buyer and the seller, and which side of possession the law come down upon. My guess is that the seller is on the hook, but this occurred after the Money Order was properly and legally cashed.
3
Fill out Form 306 if the money order has already been cashed. If you have filled out Form 6401, and the money order has been cashed, you will receive a copy of the cashed money order, which you will need to confirm as being wrongly cashed or forged by filling out Form 306. Once you submit Form 306, the postal service will investigate the problem and, if necessary, reimburse you for the money order.
Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.
Comments
I agree with Nunn..
I would ask my FFL to see the gun, if he says picked up by the ATF I would call them and find out if they did pick up.
At a property hearing, the original owner was awarded the gun back. I gave my customer his money back. I went after the pawnbroker for my money. He didn't want to give it up, at least not until the Consumer Credit Commission contacted him and suggested that he do so. Presumably, he has a record of where he got the gun, and he can go after that guy.
The last person to have possession when the item is confiscated is not necessarily the loser. That's why we keep records.
This story smells. I never heard of the ATF confiscating stolen guns. That is what the local guys do.
The ATF told me to contact the seller for a refund.That is when the seller told me to eat the loss.
The ATF told me to contact the seller for a refund.That is when the seller told me to eat the loss.
I did not get to the point of any transfer paperwork or anything.
The ATF was on the phone to him just about 15 minutes after the postal carrier delivered the package.No log in occurred after that because he was told to hold the gun for ATF pick up.
I did not get to the point of any transfer paperwork or anything.
Then you nor your FFL ever owned that gun.
NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
We shall see where it goes from here.
http://www.ehow.com/how_7314164_stop-payment-postal-money-order.html
Nothing else makes sense.
Seems pretty gutsy to ask a guy that never received an item to eat it. His business insurance should have fraud protection but maybe he does not have coverage.
GunBroker support just responded to this issue and they said they would remind the seller that they are responsible for refunding my full payment.
We shall see where it goes from here.
[:D][:D][:D]
Get your money from them.
Brad Steele
But, don't blame the seller for "not checking". There is no way for a dealer to check whether a gun is stolen or not; the "stolen gun data base" can only be accessed by a Law Enforcement Agency. And, many LEA's prohibit accessing any files without an active case.
This why it's important for anyone buying a gun to get the seller's drivers license information. Better yet, photocopy the DL & take a picture of the seller if possible.
It doesn't matter whether or not the seller knew the gun was stolen; torte law has consistently held that the person from whom a stolen item was recovered is out the money unless he can trace it back to a previous possessor. In this case, the gun never transferred to Jim, so the seller should bear the loss; I suspect ATF will help him see that is his responsibility. Otherwise, you will need to contact the Attorney General in the seller's state.
Neal
Well, it helps when we have the complete story.
But, don't blame the seller for "not checking". There is no way for a dealer to check whether a gun is stolen or not; the "stolen gun data base" can only be accessed by a Law Enforcement Agency. And, many LEA's prohibit accessing any files without an active case.
This why it's important for anyone buying a gun to get the seller's drivers license information. Better yet, photocopy the DL & take a picture of the seller if possible.
It doesn't matter whether or not the seller knew the gun was stolen; torte law has consistently held that the person from whom a stolen item was recovered is out the money unless he can trace it back to a previous possessor. In this case, the gun never transferred to Jim, so the seller should bear the loss; I suspect ATF will help him see that is his responsibility. Otherwise, you will need to contact the Attorney General in the seller's state.
Neal
Pawn shops/ FFL dealer cant check BS....pawn shop checked one i bought 4 years ago and traded to a friend... friend traded to a pawn shop and it was stolen 25 years ago in washington st...dealer cant check BS....yea yhey CAN
Too old to live...too young to die...
That seller should just piss on the fire and call in the dogs, I do believe the hunt is over.
W.D.
How do you know? Link?
I can't help but feel there is something fishy about this. The guy has a A+ Excellent feedback on every other sales. I'm thinking that this might be some disgruntled employee that started this mess and the owner has no idea what is about to happen.
Link? please?
But.... If the ATF was chasing this gun, why didn't they go to the FFL who sold it, or contact him about the serial numbers? They already had the other 4 that were stolen from this same FFL. They just let the sale happen. Maybe they want to bust this FFL for doing the sale?
You are making assumptions to the time line that were not stated. It looks to me like the FFL sold and shipped this rifle prior to knowing it was stolen. Had he sold it after knowing it was stolen, he would be being prosecuted and his troubles with GB would be insignificant.
He purchased 5 rifles. He sold and shipped one. While it was in transit, the remaining four were confiscated from his shop, and he notified BATFU to where the fifth one was being shipped. BATFU notified receiving FFL to hold the rifle because it was stolen.
It is very possible this rifle was not discovered as being stolen for quite some time after the theft. Therefore the fact that it was stolen was information unavailable at the time the rifle was auctioned.
Proper thing to do, IMO, is return the money and it is probably a legal requirement because the buyer never did have possession of the rifle.
Nice trapdoor, by the way.
Brad Steele
Response: (left on 3/4/2015) we are a lisenced gun shop we purchased 5 used guns batf said 3 monthgs later they were stolen and confiscated them he bought one they confiscated that we didnt take it the law took it we all lost
What is this "WE"? He purchased the firearms to resell. His big problem if he is receiving stolen goods. GB should suspend this moron immediately. I would go to the Post office and ask if the money orders can be stop payment. IF that dealer cashed them after BATFE notified him the guns were hot.. See if the Post office can tell you when they were cashed.
So the dealer Knew.. that some he purchased were stolen yet went ahead and listed and sold this one anyway. I would call that conversion.. taking and reselling property with knowledge it was stolen.
Where did you get this? Link please....
I removed references to the actual auction, and since CaptFun has weighed in on the topic, I presume it is OK.
Ah Ha!!
I thought I was the only one who couldn't find out what in the wide wide world of sports you fella's were talking about!![;)]
I hope everything works out and the buyer gets his money back, the victim gets his gun back and the thief meets Bubba.
The seller has another auction that he has added a note to requesting no one to bid as it is a stolen gun
NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
I removed references to the actual auction, and since CaptFun has weighed in on the topic, I presume it is OK.
it is ...email him and bust his butt... he has more auctions
So the gun is gone and now I would like to see my 2800 bucks.
So the gun is gone and now I would like to see my 2800 bucks.
My FFL just called me and said the ATF had him ship the gun in question to them FEDEX overnite.He said they even arranged for a prepaid label.ATF also sent a transfer receipt to the dealer.
So the gun is gone and now I would like to see my 2800 bucks.
Get the documentation from your dealer. Do the link I posted on the money order refund with the USPS.
Get the documentation from your dealer. Do the link I posted on the money order refund with the USPS.
I don't see how the buyer can prove that the MO was wrongly cashed or forged. The MO was properly cashed, and money properly changed hands. The problem occurred after the fact, and there is no reason to expect the Post Office to go after the seller for a refund of the money.
This is between the buyer and the seller, and which side of possession the law come down upon. My guess is that the seller is on the hook, but this occurred after the Money Order was properly and legally cashed.
3
Fill out Form 306 if the money order has already been cashed. If you have filled out Form 6401, and the money order has been cashed, you will receive a copy of the cashed money order, which you will need to confirm as being wrongly cashed or forged by filling out Form 306. Once you submit Form 306, the postal service will investigate the problem and, if necessary, reimburse you for the money order.
Brad Steele
the seller......we buy guns...send him/them an email,..........................
Looks as though the question has been answered, and that Support is handling the problem.