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01 FFL by appointment only residential premises
kwikrnu
Member Posts: 88
If a person obtains zoning approval for appointment only sales of guns from a residential business premises will the BATFE / ATF accept that and issue an 01 FFL? I have not been able to find a definitive answer to the question, but in my area it seems that the ATF has approved licenses based upon "appointment only" sales. Some, however, state that to be approved a residence must be open to the general public to "walk in" during stated business hours.
Yes, ATF will issue an 01 FFL to home based "by appointment only."
No, ATF will not issue an 01 FFL to home based "by appointment only."
Yes, ATF will issue an 01 FFL to home based "by appointment only."
No, ATF will not issue an 01 FFL to home based "by appointment only."
Comments
What I don't understand is WHY ask so many questions??? Why not just fill out the application paperwork. Jot down some "hours of operation" and get the ball rolling. In the end all the phone calls and long thoughtful conversations aren't going to do a thing....
I already filled out an application, got a business license, approved by zoning, and had an interview with an investigator...
http://www.kwikrnu.com/01_ffl_application.htm
quote:Originally posted by Locust Fork
What I don't understand is WHY ask so many questions??? Why not just fill out the application paperwork. Jot down some "hours of operation" and get the ball rolling. In the end all the phone calls and long thoughtful conversations aren't going to do a thing....
I already filled out an application, got a business license, approved by zoning, and had an interview with an investigator...
http://www.kwikrnu.com/01_ffl_application.htm
You take a business meeting in your pajamas and you expect results? they expect you to be in business, and be able to keep legible records, not getting dressed for a appointment is not a good impression to make. You can fight it, but you will have to hire and pay a lawyer to represent you, they have one you pay for on staff......
Don
"There are at least ten 01 FFL's that run businesses out of their homes in Williamson County. If the BATFE decides I cannot then I will attempt to shut the other FFL's down."
Wow. That's a mature and helpful attitude, certain to get you gangs of worthwhile advice here. Way to go.
From http://www.kwikrnu.com/01_ffl_application.htm
"There are at least ten 01 FFL's that run businesses out of their homes in Williamson County. If the BATFE decides I cannot then I will attempt to shut the other FFL's down."
Wow. That's a mature and helpful attitude, certain to get you gangs of worthwhile advice here. Way to go.
Want to bet they put their pants on for meetings?
Don
They require set hours.
May be 0700-0730 on Wed only though.
CP
His license was granted out of the Chicago ATF office.
Joe
No
They require set hours.
May be 0700-0730 on Wed only though.
CP
It is correct they require some set hours, but those are hours which may be dedicated to engaging in the business. Is there a requirement that during those hours the business must be open to the general public to just walk in? Or, may the business be open to accept appointment only customers during those hours?
...I don't know man. Pajamas, uncombed hair and an upside down flag, (a universal sign of distress). That's a crappy way to present yourself to those who can cause you untold grief. Did you offer them a cold beer too? I'm not being snotty, just picturing it in my mind and thinking that you didn't show yourself in a professional manner.
Razor blade on the mirror and the smell of bong water in the sink probably went over big too! [;)][:D]
...I don't know man. Pajamas, uncombed hair and an upside down flag, (a universal sign of distress). That's a crappy way to present yourself to those who can cause you untold grief. Did you offer them a cold beer too? I'm not being snotty, just picturing it in my mind and thinking that you didn't show yourself in a professional manner.
My question did not ask how one is to dress while interviewing. I set up and asked a simple question. During stated business hours does the ATF require a home FFL to receive walk-in customers or may the FFL choose to accept customers by appointment only?
5 of them were today.
That means it is discretionary on the part of the agency.
Yes, there is an appeals process. Their attorneys may not be good, but they don't have to be; they have unlimited time, & they are on salary.
Best of luck to you.
Neal
YES
now quit being a dick
Too old to live...too young to die...
quote:Originally posted by tapwater
...I don't know man. Pajamas, uncombed hair and an upside down flag, (a universal sign of distress). That's a crappy way to present yourself to those who can cause you untold grief. Did you offer them a cold beer too? I'm not being snotty, just picturing it in my mind and thinking that you didn't show yourself in a professional manner.
My question did not ask how one is to dress while interviewing. I set up and asked a simple question. During stated business hours does the ATF require a home FFL to receive walk-in customers or may the FFL choose to accept customers by appointment only?
With your zoning you don't have the option for "open hours"...
You can post what ever hours you want, it is your business, you come and go as you please...IIRC, my hours are M-F 5:45-7:30 PM & Sat 1:00-5:00, but I handle customers before and after on a regular basis.
I wonder why you want a FFL, you can bet by pissing off you local inspectors (I don't doubt you are a treat in your PJ's), at your first inspection you will be required to meet the discretionary "In Business" quota that they look for, if you don't meet it, they can and will pull your license.
But hey, what would I know, I have only had my "home based" 01 for a little over 20 years....
Don
...Seems to me that you should have asked your question during the interview, and got the answer in writing. Not having done that, call the Atlanta office and work your way up the chain of command, getting names and answers. Request a signed answer from who you speak with. Hard copy, by mail.
I thought I knew the answer, but the atf investigator stated in the interview and to the zoning department after the interview that in order to be licensed a home based FFL must be open for the general public to walk-in during scheduled business hours.
My conversation with zoning is on audio as is the "interview" with the ATF investigator.
Interview with ATF
http://www.kwikrnu.com/FFL documents/atf batfe bill william gallivan 1-11-12 interview ffl audio.WMA
@00:05:00 to 00:10:00(business hours)
@00:12:45 to 00:14:22(licensed to be a retail store/location, everything under the roof is searchable)
@00:28:50 to 00:29:00 (licensed to be a retail business)
@00:45:45 to 00:46:45 (gunbroker/driver license)
@00:57:00 to 00:58:00(internet sales/need to do retail sales)
@01:13:00 to @01:21:20 (williamson county zoning/retail sales I state I need letter)
@01:21:20 to (entire residence searchable argument/everything under the roof is licensed premises)
@01:23:30 to 01:25:40 (shipping address no UPS shipping store or PO box)
@02:23:00 to 2:28:30 (zoning)
Conversation with zoning
http://www.kwikrnu.com/FFL documents/williamson county zoning atf batfe edited 1-17-2012.wmv
But hey, what would I know, I have only had my "home based" 01 for a little over 20 years....
Don
You've had three chances to answer the question, Mr. I've been in the business 20 years, yet you have not answered the question. The manner in which I operate my business is mine. The question stands, does the ATF issue FFL's to people with stated hours by appointment only?
I know an FFL that had, listed on his license, as hours of operation, "4PM-8PM by appointment only".
His license was granted out of the Chicago ATF office.
Joe
quote:Originally posted by kwikrnu
quote:Originally posted by dongizmo
But hey, what would I know, I have only had my "home based" 01 for a little over 20 years....
Don
You've had three chances to answer the question, Mr. I've been in the business 20 years, yet you have not answered the question. The manner in which I operate my business is mine. The question stands, does the ATF issue FFL's to people with stated hours by appointment only?
I had my FFL for 15 years. I got it so that I could purchase guns from out of state gun shows. When Clinton got in, they demanded a separate store front from me. Later, I appealed under the "appointment only" exception, but was told that the neighborhood was such that they "knew" my neighbors would not wish to be disturbed. I asked them to walk with me to these neighbors which I have known since 1970. Of coarse they refused.
I knew the real reason, but absolutely refused to remove my flags. Outside, I fly a Marine Corps and Confederate Battle Flags. Inside, I have quite a collection: Bonnie Blue;Stars and Bars;Alamo Flag; Dallas Cowboy; and Texas Flags. I'm only missing one Flag...The "Stars and Stripes" which was taken down, and the space remains open, until Obama leaves office. The BATF agent was a White guy getting ready to retire. He said that he was born in Mississippi, understands, but shuts up because he is so close to retirement.
They screwed another "Rebel"![:(!]
Sorry, for what they did to you. My situation is somewhat different in that a neighbor in my subdivision is already an 01 FFL and pays the SOT to be a class III dealer in title II firearms.
quote:Originally posted by eboydell
I had my FFL for 15 years. I got it so that I could purchase guns from out of state gun shows. When Clinton got in, they demanded a separate store front from me. Later, I appealed under the "appointment only" exception, but was told that the neighborhood was such that they "knew" my neighbors would not wish to be disturbed. I asked them to walk with me to these neighbors which I have known since 1970. Of coarse they refused.
I knew the real reason, but absolutely refused to remove my flags. Outside, I fly a Marine Corps and Confederate Battle Flags. Inside, I have quite a collection: Bonnie Blue;Stars and Bars;Alamo Flag; Dallas Cowboy; and Texas Flags. I'm only missing one Flag...The "Stars and Stripes" which was taken down, and the space remains open, until Obama leaves office. The BATF agent was a White guy getting ready to retire. He said that he was born in Mississippi, understands, but shuts up because he is so close to retirement.
They screwed another "Rebel"![:(!]
Sorry, for what they did to you. My situation is somewhat different in that a neighbor in my subdivision is already an 01 FFL and pays the SOT to be a class III dealer in title II firearms.
I bet he takes meetings after he put his pants on....
Don
But it seems you set out from the start to pick a fight with the batfe rather than seek their help.
You won't shut anyone down. Noone cares what you think is right. Or wrong. In fact, the point of 10 of them being in a close proxmity to you very well could stop you form getting yours.
best of luck, but I betting the come on this roll
probably not even.
classic troll mentality, post a situation and continue to ignore the answer.
here's the answer:
you have to list operating hours.
as mentioned multiple times before, you can be open "by appointment" within those set hours.
you can't have "appointment only" and no set hours.
even with set hours, basement gun shops, mainly for the applicants convenience is harder to get now days.
just commenting on my own experiences.
tom
Why do I have an unshakable feeling this clown is like 22 years old?
If you listen to the audio file he linked you will know for sure that he is in the low-mid 20's range. My favorite part was when the head zoning lady came out and told him (repeatedly) that the zoning laws forbid a retail store and that he could do it by appointment only but he kept stating that the ATF required open hours (as if that would change their rules). The lady kept trying to explain to him that the ATF does not make their zoning rules for them and he wouldn't listen.
Apparently your conspiring neighbors followed the process correctly and fulfilled their wildest FFL fantasies. You should be asking THEM for tips instead of asking the internet what the ATF can or can't do.
My take on the subject is this. When you are seeking permission from a government agency above what the average citizen gets you are not playing your game, you are playing theirs. If you get a person who likes to play god with their power, or simply decides to follow the letter of the written law/ordinance, you would have had a better chance if you appear legit and worthy of the power you seek them to bestow upon you. "Give me this because it's my legal right" does not work in all situations.
PS: Put your damn pants on and 'sanitize' the meeting area of stuff that will scrap your hopes and dreams before they get off the ground. The decision is yours but you have to weigh what is more important. Short term 'upside down flag' message to someone who will forget you the moment they walk out the door, or get your FFL and live happily ever after.
i wonder if its legal to record peoples voices without their knowledge and consent where he lives.....
HERE is the guy you need to tell to use the search function!!!
I know the answer, but I'm not going to tell you kwikrnu, not unless you ask pretty please.
My favorite part was when the head zoning lady came out and told him (repeatedly) that the zoning laws forbid a retail store and that he could do it by appointment only but he kept stating that the ATF required open hours (as if that would change their rules). The lady kept trying to explain to him that the ATF does not make their zoning rules for them and he wouldn't listen.
There seems to be some confusion as to varying terms. What is a retail store? According to zoning I may sell retail items by appointment only, but may not operate a retail store.
quote:Originally posted by buckstar
Apparently your conspiring neighbors followed the process correctly and fulfilled their wildest FFL fantasies. You should be asking THEM for tips instead of asking the internet what the ATF can or can't do.
My neighbors, from what I can tell by the zoning certificate, did not receive any approval.
http://www.kwikrnu.com/FFL documents/zoning certificates/bill william price 2029 valley ct sunnyside zoning.pdf
As long as one person knows or it is a public place. I am the one person, but both my business area and the zoning office are held open to the public during business hours and by appointment only.
I had a home based FFL for twenty years. I had to let ATF know my business hours as that's when THEY come by to make compliance checks. That is why they want you to list business hours. Not one time in 20 years did one person come in uninvited. There's no law that says you have to have posted hours on your premises. The only way that some one could walk in is if you had business hours posted on your door and You chose to let them in. Their are many businesses that have a locked door policy Sons of Guns is a prime example of a locked door policy. There is no law that says your doors have to be unlocked or WHO you have to let in. Your worrying about a problem that doesn't exist.
Are you actually a gungrabber trying to get denied so that you have your "justification" to attempt getting the "at least ten 01 FFL's that run businesses out of their homes in Williamson County" shut down? You certainly don't seem to be doing a thing to help yourself succeed in the endeavor of getting an 01 FFL!
It is an issue of fairness. If I may be prohibited from obtaining an 01 FFL because the ATF does not approve the zoning then everyone with residential 01 FFLs should also be disapproved. This is why I satellite mapped all of the residential 01 FFLs in the county and am in the process of obtaining zoning records for each of them. If/when I must appeal the denial of my application I'll have evidence which shows the ATF was arbitrary or capricious in their decision making.
I had a home based FFL for twenty years. I had to let ATF know my business hours as that's when THEY come by to make compliance checks. That is why they want you to list business hours. Not one time in 20 years did one person come in uninvited. There's no law that says you have to have posted hours on your premises. The only way that some one could walk in is if you had business hours posted on your door and You chose to let them in. Their are many businesses that have a locked door policy Sons of Guns is a prime example of a locked door policy. There is no law that says your doors have to be unlocked or WHO you have to let in. Your worrying about a problem that doesn't exist.
It does exist because the ATF investigator said their attorney would not approve my residential 01 FFL, and when I spoke with zoning they said the ATF required the business to be open for customers to come and go as they please. It is all on the audio I posted.
quote:Originally posted by DarkStar11
Are you actually a gungrabber trying to get denied so that you have your "justification" to attempt getting the "at least ten 01 FFL's that run businesses out of their homes in Williamson County" shut down? You certainly don't seem to be doing a thing to help yourself succeed in the endeavor of getting an 01 FFL!
It is an issue of fairness. If I may be prohibited from obtaining an 01 FFL because the ATF does not approve the zoning then everyone with residential 01 FFLs should also be disapproved. This is why I satellite mapped all of the residential 01 FFLs in the county and am in the process of obtaining zoning records for each of them. If/when I must appeal the denial of my application I'll have evidence which shows the ATF was arbitrary or capricious in their decision making.
There was a similar situation here where after some lengthly time the city found some zoning ordinances that clashed with ATF directives. After 20 years of being an FFL the ATF denied all renewals thus eliminating all FFL's in the city whether they had a store or sold out of their homes.