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quote:Originally posted by armilite
There was a similar situation here where after some lengthly time the city found some zoning ordinances that clashed with ATF directives. After 20 years of being an FFL the ATF denied all renewals thus eliminating all FFL's in the city whether they had a store or sold out of their homes.
There would be no problem for me to get an 01 FFL if I had property which was zoned commercial, but I don't have the extra time and money to dedicate for a venture like that, right now. For a government agency to so blatently license some and prohibit others is what I object to. They should either eliminate all residential licensees in my county or allow me, as a residential licensee, to engage in business operations.
http://www.kwikrnu.com/
I got to admit, I am impressed, the FU in cartridges, and the quote:and where the pigs always pay more, because they should
You are the MAN....
Don
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools.
Ya, like planning and zoning are the experts on what BATF requires.
I asked the question because the ATF investigator who came to my house called zoning and told zoning that an 01 FFL must be open to the public for walk-in business during stated business hours.
quote:Originally posted by kwikrnu
quote:Originally posted by buckstar
My favorite part was when the head zoning lady came out and told him (repeatedly) that the zoning laws forbid a retail store and that he could do it by appointment only but he kept stating that the ATF required open hours (as if that would change their rules). The lady kept trying to explain to him that the ATF does not make their zoning rules for them and he wouldn't listen.
There seems to be some confusion as to varying terms. What is a retail store? According to zoning I may sell retail items by appointment only, but may not operate a retail store.
The zoning lady knew that you were confused and attempted to explain it to you. You did not stop and ponder and then ask relevant questions, but decided to try and win an argument on her ballground instead. She said that your confusion is based on the fact that the zoning law hasn't been updated since internet business has come onto the scene. I'll go a step further so that it can be more clear. Wallmart is a retail store and is disallowed. A daycare business may retail-sell pacifiers but is by appointment only and is allowed. An internet store, in your case, is like a daycare center. You may ship out AR-15 uppers or sign over complete rifles to people who come in for an appointment. Your zoning board will not let you have a 'come in and browse our stock of items' kind of business in your house but you can have an internet (or whatever) 'make an appointment to enter my business' kind of store.
quote:Originally posted by buckstar
Apparently your conspiring neighbors followed the process correctly and fulfilled their wildest FFL fantasies. You should be asking THEM for tips instead of asking the internet what the ATF can or can't do.
My neighbors, from what I can tell by the zoning certificate, did not receive any approval.
The PDF you link here shows an application for an "office only" business. The enclosed tax assessment may indicate that he is working those tax breaks. With the price of his house in 2002 money there's a good chance he has an accountant and a lawyer to help him. It shows that it is from 2002 and stuff could have been different back then, heck, maybe he's a friend of a friend and it's a big conspiracy. This is not the subject at hand and won't help you get an FFL. Stay on target, Luke. Now look at the PDF involving Mr. Berryman. It has a similar application from 2002 to the one you linked and then 2 more on the same day in 2009. The ones in 2009 are very thorough, had a letter of intent, and looks as if one of them had to be re-done. Has zoning gotten stricter since 2002? Mr. Berryman knows if it has. Go call these guys. They have done what you are trying to do successfully and since you have similar interests you may find one that is willing to help you... Just put some pants on first.
quote:Originally posted by kwikrnu
quote:Originally posted by DarkStar11
Are you actually a gungrabber trying to get denied so that you have your "justification" to attempt getting the "at least ten 01 FFL's that run businesses out of their homes in Williamson County" shut down? You certainly don't seem to be doing a thing to help yourself succeed in the endeavor of getting an 01 FFL!
It is an issue of fairness. If I may be prohibited from obtaining an 01 FFL because the ATF does not approve the zoning then everyone with residential 01 FFLs should also be disapproved. This is why I satellite mapped all of the residential 01 FFLs in the county and am in the process of obtaining zoning records for each of them. If/when I must appeal the denial of my application I'll have evidence which shows the ATF was arbitrary or capricious in their decision making.
hey *, just because you are not in a zoning, doesn't mean the house next door isn't either. The boundries have to fall somewhere and hopefully it will be on your property.
You have no business with an ffl, and honestly I would bet you are nto capable of getting a 03 at this point.
You have shown no respect to the agent, you didn't bother to dres, clean up. You are recording everything like people are out to get you as if they think you are up to something, in which I side with them, you are up to somehting.
After all, how and why would zoning be an issue unless you ahve already been denied? If you have been denied, then you have your answer. If not, and you have done everythig by the rules, then shut up and wait.
Personally I am going to call the atf and specifically ask you be declined simply for being a root on the internet.
"I asked the question because the ATF investigator who came to my house called zoning and told zoning that an 01 FFL must be open to the public for walk-in business during stated business hours."
That's funny right there. All the wholesale dealers I get stuff from are 01 dealers and they don't sell to the public, nor are they open to the public.
quote:Originally posted by hunter86004
"I asked the question because the ATF investigator who came to my house called zoning and told zoning that an 01 FFL must be open to the public for walk-in business during stated business hours."
That's funny right there. All the wholesale dealers I get stuff from are 01 dealers and they don't sell to the public, nor are they open to the public.
And they are in commercial buildings with proper zoning [;)]
Don
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools.
quote:Originally posted by buckstar
The zoning lady knew that you were confused and attempted to explain it to you. You did not stop and ponder and then ask relevant questions, but decided to try and win an argument on her ball ground instead. She said that your confusion is based on the fact that the zoning law hasn't been updated since internet business has come onto the scene. I'll go a step further so that it can be more clear. Wallmart is a retail store and is disallowed. A daycare business may retail-sell pacifiers but is by appointment only and is allowed. An internet store, in your case, is like a daycare center. You may ship out AR-15 uppers or sign over complete rifles to people who come in for an appointment. Your zoning board will not let you have a 'come in and browse our stock of items' kind of business in your house but you can have an internet (or whatever) 'make an appointment to enter my business' kind of store.
Walmart may sell because they are zoned commercial. There is no requirement that they sell by appointment only. My residence would be set up as a home occupation which only allows the sale of items by appointment only. Zoning has been approved for my home based residential business by appointment only. It is the ATF that is saying an 01 FFL must be open to the general public to just walk-in during business hours.
quote:Originally posted by buckstar
The PDF you link here shows an application for an "office only" business. The enclosed tax assessment may indicate that he is working those tax breaks. With the price of his house in 2002 money there's a good chance he has an accountant and a lawyer to help him. It shows that it is from 2002 and stuff could have been different back then, heck, maybe he's a friend of a friend and it's a big conspiracy. This is not the subject at hand and won't help you get an FFL. Stay on target, Luke. Now look at the PDF involving Mr. Berryman. It has a similar application from 2002 to the one you linked and then 2 more on the same day in 2009. The ones in 2009 are very thorough, had a letter of intent, and looks as if one of them had to be re-done. Has zoning gotten stricter since 2002? Mr. Berryman knows if it has. Go call these guys. They have done what you are trying to do successfully and since you have similar interests you may find one that is willing to help you... Just put some pants on first.
My next door neighbor's address is his premises. He claimed on the zoning it was his office and apparently the ATF approved his home occupation. The language from my zoning is close to gosford's and berryman's. The problem is not the zoning department, they allow sales by appointment only. The problem is the ATF and the investigator's requirement that an 01 FFL must be open to the general public during business hours for walk-in business.
quote:Originally posted by hunter86004
"I asked the question because the ATF investigator who came to my house called zoning and told zoning that an 01 FFL must be open to the public for walk-in business during stated business hours."
That's funny right there. All the wholesale dealers I get stuff from are 01 dealers and they don't sell to the public, nor are they open to the public.
Yet, they have regular business hours. This is why I audio record people.
hey *, just because you are not in a zoning, doesn't mean the house next door isn't either. The boundries have to fall somewhere and hopefully it will be on your property.
You have no business with an ffl, and honestly I would bet you are nto capable of getting a 03 at this point.
You have shown no respect to the agent, you didn't bother to dres, clean up. You are recording everything like people are out to get you as if they think you are up to something, in which I side with them, you are up to somehting.
After all, how and why would zoning be an issue unless you ahve already been denied? If you have been denied, then you have your answer. If not, and you have done everythig by the rules, then shut up and wait.
Personally I am going to call the atf and specifically ask you be declined simply for being a root on the internet.
The County where I am located treats all unincorporated property the same as far as I can tell. This means that all residential property which lies outside of city limits and within the boundaries of the county is subject to the same zoning regulations. Zoning will approve all home occupation businesses that want to sell firearms for appointment only.
I do own NFA weapons and all I need to do to apply for a SOT is get an EIN along with the 01FFL, or maybe an 07FFL.
If you need the investigators name it is william gallivan at the nashville field office. william.gallivan@atf.gov
quote:Originally posted by hunter86004
"called zoning and told zoning that an 01 FFL must be open to the public for walk-in business during stated business hours."
This is ATF telling zoning 01 dealers must be open to the public for walk in business, not zoning telling ATF.
Correct. This is the original question. Does the ATF license an 01 FFL to have regular hours, but limit customers to show up by appointmnet only? It would appear that this investigator requires an 01 FFL to be open to walk-in customers during business hours.
I think this has been explained to you at least once, but the reason BATFE wants the hours you are open is so they can visit you when you are open. What hours you keep for your customers is up to you.
Put down the hours you will be available to them and you should be good to go, unless you've come off to the inspector as a total idiot and he's going to make life difficult for you.
are you the moron that thought he figured out the kennedy assassination and went nuts on here?
you seem to share the same mental ability
you came here for an answer.
you didnt like it.
screw off
It is better you dont sell, sounds like you need to get your personal life in order!
quote:Originally posted by hunter86004
I think this has been explained to you at least once, but the reason BATFE wants the hours you are open is so they can visit you when you are open. What hours you keep for your customers is up to you.
Put down the hours you will be available to them and you should be good to go, unless you've come off to the inspector as a total idiot and he's going to make life difficult for you.
I understand that is the reason for business hours on the FFL application, that is not in question as far as I am concerned.
The question is does the ATF require 01 FFLs be open for business to the general public during the business hours listed on the application? If so, is there a requirement that customers may "walk-in" at any time or may access be limited to "by appointment only"?
The overwhelming response, in this thread, is that 01 FFLs may limit access to their business by appointment only. However, the senior industry operations investigator who interviewed me told me and the zoning department that access to the business must be open to walk-in person during business hours. Hence the question of the original post.
This should not difficult. There is one question and one answer. It is either yes, "by appointment only" is okay and ATF will issue an 01 FFL based upon "by appointment only". Or, no, the ATF will not issue a 01 FFL based upon "by appointment only".
quote:Originally posted by tsavo303
are you the moron that thought he figured out the kennedy assassination and went nuts on here?
you seem to share the same mental ability
you came here for an answer.
you didnt like it.
screw off
It is better you dont sell, sounds like you need to get your personal life in order!
What was your answer? The ATF investigator said that hours "by appointment only" are unacceptable. He told zoning that customers must be allowed to "walk-in" during stated business hours. Do you agree with the IOI?
How is it that some people can fill out forms, get things done, show up on time, and generally move through life successfully and yet others could f up making a peanut butter sandwich?
"How is it that some people can fill out forms, get things done, show up on time, and generally move through life successfully and yet others could f up making a peanut butter sandwich?"
For some people just breathing is made complicated.
You need to go listen to your own recordings again and quit being a derp. I doubt you'll receive any serious help from anybody here, this is a fiasco. Good luck on your quest...... or not.[:)]
Ok, so curiosity got the better of me and I'm listening to a 3 hour tape of this dude talking to the ATF agent. I'm actually quite surprised at how informative it is as the agent is explaining everything and maybe I will want a license some day. I plan to listen to the whole thing but paused it because I think the answer has already been described within the first 8 minutes of the tape.
The applicant does seem knowledgeable and sounds polite, as well as the agent.
When the agent is talking about the hours of operation, he was trying to make 2 points. One was that you have to have hours and be open to receive firearms face-to-face with the courier. Two was that the ATF will make its visits during business hours. The agent then went to describe that the entire building is subject to search and was explaining why. The applicant was ignoring everything and waiting for an opening to ask for case law on the subject (dick move) which the agent had already stated that he was giving the section and page number for reference. The explanation the agent was giving was reasonable and doesn't need case law for a reasonable person to accept it. Because of this sidetracking, the applicant missed his opportunity to ask for clarification about being open to the public. Moments later the agent stated that the applicant has the right to reject anyone he doesn't want to do business with and cited examples of how the people can't do anything about it. This may have been dropping a hint and should have been followed up on.
So far I'm thinking that the applicant needs to get clarification on the original thread topic straight from the ATF and if that clarification meets zoning regulations it needs to get from the ATF to the zoning board and everything is good.
quote:Originally posted by buckstar
So far I'm thinking that the applicant needs to get clarification on the original thread topic straight from the ATF and if that clarification meets zoning regulations it needs to get from the ATF to the zoning board and everything is good.
The ATF will not clarify because if they leave it as is they may deny or approve based upon their own interpretation of what the regulation states. The law states that a dealer must be engaged in the business and obey all local and state laws. Since zoning ordinances are laws if the ATF believes by their interpretation that a zoning ordinance is violated they will not issue a FFL.
In this case the ATF investigator, the who makes the recommendation to approve or deny, has told the zoning department that an 01 FFL must be open to the public for walk-ins during business hours. My zoning approval does not allow for walk-ins as that is considered a retail store. I am only approved by zoning for sales by appointment only during business hours.
Ok, so I have listened to the entire tape with the ATF guy and I think he spells it out pretty clearly that you need to get the wording in your zoning certificate changed or the ATF will not accept it. He says their lawyers looked at it and won't accept it as it is and I agree with that. It is a total piece of crap and worded to undermine your chances of approval. Now it may have been copied from one that supposedly worked but I guess that one didn't get the scrutiny like yours did so you're stuck.
This is the wording they used on your form:
"APPLICANT WOULD LIKE TO DO GUN SALES AND RETAIL INTERNET SALES BY APPT ONLY. OTHER THAN WHAT IS REQUIRED BY THE ATF, NO CUSTOMERS ARE ALLOWED ON SITE. NO AMMUNITION SHALL BE STORED ON SITE. NO FIREARMS, OTHER THAN WHAT IS REQUIRED BY THE ATF, CAN BE STORED ON SITE FOR MORE THAN 1 YEAR, AND MUST BE STORED IN A SAFE. NO DISPLAY OF FIREARMS IS PERMITTED. ALL SALES MUST BE DONE BY APPOINTMENT. NO EMPLOYEES PROPOSED, NO SIGNS ALLOWED WITHIN PLATTED SUBDIVISION."
My translation of that gibberish is that they recognize that you intend to run an internet business that involves products and firearms. They seem to understand that the ATF requires you to have customers on site for the purpose of performing the 4473 and telephone check. They intend for you to do this part of the transaction by appointment only and customers are not allowed on site for any other reason.
The part about not being allowed to have firearms on the site, other than for the transaction, and no ammo allowed, is horrifying.
You need a lawyer that does zoning issues. I've lived in a town where zoning laws were selectively enforced too. I was the new resident and a company bought up 50 of the houses for sale to rent out. My house was one that they wanted but I paid more than they would give the previous owner. The result was that I had zoning crap thrown at me for stuff that matched his properties, I got fines, threats, court dates, and I moved to a better town. I ended up taking a 50% loss on that house. Their town hall was corrupt and now I pay my taxes to a town that doesn't crap on me.
quote:Originally posted by buckstar
This is the wording they used on your form:
"APPLICANT WOULD LIKE TO DO GUN SALES AND RETAIL INTERNET SALES BY APPT ONLY. OTHER THAN WHAT IS REQUIRED BY THE ATF, NO CUSTOMERS ARE ALLOWED ON SITE. NO AMMUNITION SHALL BE STORED ON SITE. NO FIREARMS, OTHER THAN WHAT IS REQUIRED BY THE ATF, CAN BE STORED ON SITE FOR MORE THAN 1 YEAR, AND MUST BE STORED IN A SAFE. NO DISPLAY OF FIREARMS IS PERMITTED. ALL SALES MUST BE DONE BY APPOINTMENT. NO EMPLOYEES PROPOSED, NO SIGNS ALLOWED WITHIN PLATTED SUBDIVISION."
The first sentence is what I am approved to do, gun sales and retail internet sales by appointment only. What follows are a list of requirements which I am fine with. Zoning is allowing me to perform the functions of a gun sales business. It is the ATF that is stating I may not have a license unless I allow people to "walk-in" to the business during stated hours.
quote:Originally posted by dongizmo
So your fishing for a lawsuit, trying to trip up any LEO or government official, be it your local zoning or BATFE... And you want help? LOL
Don
I won't have to sue anyone if they follow the law and issue the license as required by law.
quote:Originally posted by kwikrnu
quote:Originally posted by dongizmo
So your fishing for a lawsuit, trying to trip up any LEO or government official, be it your local zoning or BATFE... And you want help? LOL
Don
I won't have to sue anyone if they follow the law and issue the license as required by law.
Get the proper zoning and list hours of operation on you app and you will.... You think taking a meeting with a inspector in you pajamas is going to lend his approval to your application? keep in mind every news media in the country has been trying this for years to make a story, "look at who the BATFE is giving licenses to". (I have personal friends who were targeted by undercover cameras for this)
You make the industry look bad, being a poster boy for who should not be licensed..
Don
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools.
quote:Originally posted by dongizmo
Get the proper zoning and list hours of operation on you app and you will.... You think taking a meeting with a inspector in you pajamas is going to lend his approval to your application? keep in mind every news media in the country has been trying this for years to make a story, "look at who the BATFE is giving licenses to". (I have personal friends who were targeted by undercover cameras for this)
You make the industry look bad, being a poster boy for who should not be licensed..
Don
I do have proper zoning. I listed hours on my FFL application.
I don't have anything to hide so film away. I'm going to try and specialize in AR and AK pistols that will give them something to talk about.
quote:Originally posted by kwikrnu
quote:Originally posted by dongizmo
Get the proper zoning and list hours of operation on you app and you will.... You think taking a meeting with a inspector in you pajamas is going to lend his approval to your application? keep in mind every news media in the country has been trying this for years to make a story, "look at who the BATFE is giving licenses to". (I have personal friends who were targeted by undercover cameras for this)
You make the industry look bad, being a poster boy for who should not be licensed..
Don
I do have proper zoning. I listed hours on my FFL application.
I don't have anything to hide so film away. I'm going to try and specialize in AR and AK pistols that will give them something to talk about.
No, you don't, you must have hours of operation, and by your zoning, you can't have hours of operation.[;)]
You sure you don't want to specialize in orange tipped Drakos?..
Don
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools.
quote:Originally posted by dongizmo
No, you don't, you must have hours of operation, and by your zoning, you can't have hours of operation.[;)]
You sure you don't want to specialize in orange tipped Drakos?..
Don
All businesses have hours of operation, if they did not how would they operate? My zoning allows me to operate an business by appointment only.
I'm not interested in getting an 07 FFL to work on guns, just an 01.
That is funny coming from someone who joined my thread and added nothing of worth. You haven't even tried to answer the valid question I asked in the original post.
Just continue to follow the footsteps of dongizmo and you'll have 14K posts with no substance.
I can't stop laughing. Let's see.. subdivision in residential neighborhood. Probably a 1/4-1/2 acre lot with a home on it. You can stand in the drive and throw a rock .. not to the house next door but to the one next to it and take out a window. Parking would be minimal. Zoning says NO business's in residential neighborhoods. Well only thing I see happening is.. maybe a garage sale once a year or pending zoning . Rent a building somewhere if you feel the need.
quote:Originally posted by select-fire
I can't stop laughing. Let's see.. subdivision in residential neighborhood. Probably a 1/4-1/2 acre lot with a home on it. You can stand in the drive and throw a rock .. not to the house next door but to the one next to it and take out a window. Parking would be minimal. Zoning says NO business's in residential neighborhoods. Well only thing I see happening is.. maybe a garage sale once a year or pending zoning . Rent a building somewhere if you feel the need.
2 1/2 acre lot and zoning has already approved my home business. The ATF has already approved my neighbor for an 01 FFL based upon the same zoning ordinances.
Comments
Ya, like planning and zoning are the experts on what BATF requires.
There was a similar situation here where after some lengthly time the city found some zoning ordinances that clashed with ATF directives. After 20 years of being an FFL the ATF denied all renewals thus eliminating all FFL's in the city whether they had a store or sold out of their homes.
There would be no problem for me to get an 01 FFL if I had property which was zoned commercial, but I don't have the extra time and money to dedicate for a venture like that, right now. For a government agency to so blatently license some and prohibit others is what I object to. They should either eliminate all residential licensees in my county or allow me, as a residential licensee, to engage in business operations.
I got to admit, I am impressed, the FU in cartridges, and the quote:and where the pigs always pay more, because they should
You are the MAN....
Don
Ya, like planning and zoning are the experts on what BATF requires.
I asked the question because the ATF investigator who came to my house called zoning and told zoning that an 01 FFL must be open to the public for walk-in business during stated business hours.
It is right there on audio tape @ 00:09:25 to 00:17:00.
http://www.kwikrnu.com/FFL documents/williamson county zoning atf batfe edited 1-17-2012.wmv
quote:Originally posted by buckstar
My favorite part was when the head zoning lady came out and told him (repeatedly) that the zoning laws forbid a retail store and that he could do it by appointment only but he kept stating that the ATF required open hours (as if that would change their rules). The lady kept trying to explain to him that the ATF does not make their zoning rules for them and he wouldn't listen.
There seems to be some confusion as to varying terms. What is a retail store? According to zoning I may sell retail items by appointment only, but may not operate a retail store.
The zoning lady knew that you were confused and attempted to explain it to you. You did not stop and ponder and then ask relevant questions, but decided to try and win an argument on her ballground instead. She said that your confusion is based on the fact that the zoning law hasn't been updated since internet business has come onto the scene. I'll go a step further so that it can be more clear. Wallmart is a retail store and is disallowed. A daycare business may retail-sell pacifiers but is by appointment only and is allowed. An internet store, in your case, is like a daycare center. You may ship out AR-15 uppers or sign over complete rifles to people who come in for an appointment. Your zoning board will not let you have a 'come in and browse our stock of items' kind of business in your house but you can have an internet (or whatever) 'make an appointment to enter my business' kind of store.
quote:Originally posted by buckstar
Apparently your conspiring neighbors followed the process correctly and fulfilled their wildest FFL fantasies. You should be asking THEM for tips instead of asking the internet what the ATF can or can't do.
My neighbors, from what I can tell by the zoning certificate, did not receive any approval.
http://www.kwikrnu.com/FFL documents/zoning certificates/bill william price 2029 valley ct sunnyside zoning.pdf
The PDF you link here shows an application for an "office only" business. The enclosed tax assessment may indicate that he is working those tax breaks. With the price of his house in 2002 money there's a good chance he has an accountant and a lawyer to help him. It shows that it is from 2002 and stuff could have been different back then, heck, maybe he's a friend of a friend and it's a big conspiracy. This is not the subject at hand and won't help you get an FFL. Stay on target, Luke. Now look at the PDF involving Mr. Berryman. It has a similar application from 2002 to the one you linked and then 2 more on the same day in 2009. The ones in 2009 are very thorough, had a letter of intent, and looks as if one of them had to be re-done. Has zoning gotten stricter since 2002? Mr. Berryman knows if it has. Go call these guys. They have done what you are trying to do successfully and since you have similar interests you may find one that is willing to help you... Just put some pants on first.
quote:Originally posted by DarkStar11
Are you actually a gungrabber trying to get denied so that you have your "justification" to attempt getting the "at least ten 01 FFL's that run businesses out of their homes in Williamson County" shut down? You certainly don't seem to be doing a thing to help yourself succeed in the endeavor of getting an 01 FFL!
It is an issue of fairness. If I may be prohibited from obtaining an 01 FFL because the ATF does not approve the zoning then everyone with residential 01 FFLs should also be disapproved. This is why I satellite mapped all of the residential 01 FFLs in the county and am in the process of obtaining zoning records for each of them. If/when I must appeal the denial of my application I'll have evidence which shows the ATF was arbitrary or capricious in their decision making.
hey *, just because you are not in a zoning, doesn't mean the house next door isn't either. The boundries have to fall somewhere and hopefully it will be on your property.
You have no business with an ffl, and honestly I would bet you are nto capable of getting a 03 at this point.
You have shown no respect to the agent, you didn't bother to dres, clean up. You are recording everything like people are out to get you as if they think you are up to something, in which I side with them, you are up to somehting.
After all, how and why would zoning be an issue unless you ahve already been denied? If you have been denied, then you have your answer. If not, and you have done everythig by the rules, then shut up and wait.
Personally I am going to call the atf and specifically ask you be declined simply for being a root on the internet.
That's funny right there. All the wholesale dealers I get stuff from are 01 dealers and they don't sell to the public, nor are they open to the public.
"I asked the question because the ATF investigator who came to my house called zoning and told zoning that an 01 FFL must be open to the public for walk-in business during stated business hours."
That's funny right there. All the wholesale dealers I get stuff from are 01 dealers and they don't sell to the public, nor are they open to the public.
And they are in commercial buildings with proper zoning [;)]
Don
The zoning lady knew that you were confused and attempted to explain it to you. You did not stop and ponder and then ask relevant questions, but decided to try and win an argument on her ball ground instead. She said that your confusion is based on the fact that the zoning law hasn't been updated since internet business has come onto the scene. I'll go a step further so that it can be more clear. Wallmart is a retail store and is disallowed. A daycare business may retail-sell pacifiers but is by appointment only and is allowed. An internet store, in your case, is like a daycare center. You may ship out AR-15 uppers or sign over complete rifles to people who come in for an appointment. Your zoning board will not let you have a 'come in and browse our stock of items' kind of business in your house but you can have an internet (or whatever) 'make an appointment to enter my business' kind of store.
Walmart may sell because they are zoned commercial. There is no requirement that they sell by appointment only. My residence would be set up as a home occupation which only allows the sale of items by appointment only. Zoning has been approved for my home based residential business by appointment only. It is the ATF that is saying an 01 FFL must be open to the general public to just walk-in during business hours.
quote:Originally posted by buckstar
The PDF you link here shows an application for an "office only" business. The enclosed tax assessment may indicate that he is working those tax breaks. With the price of his house in 2002 money there's a good chance he has an accountant and a lawyer to help him. It shows that it is from 2002 and stuff could have been different back then, heck, maybe he's a friend of a friend and it's a big conspiracy. This is not the subject at hand and won't help you get an FFL. Stay on target, Luke. Now look at the PDF involving Mr. Berryman. It has a similar application from 2002 to the one you linked and then 2 more on the same day in 2009. The ones in 2009 are very thorough, had a letter of intent, and looks as if one of them had to be re-done. Has zoning gotten stricter since 2002? Mr. Berryman knows if it has. Go call these guys. They have done what you are trying to do successfully and since you have similar interests you may find one that is willing to help you... Just put some pants on first.
My next door neighbor's address is his premises. He claimed on the zoning it was his office and apparently the ATF approved his home occupation. The language from my zoning is close to gosford's and berryman's. The problem is not the zoning department, they allow sales by appointment only. The problem is the ATF and the investigator's requirement that an 01 FFL must be open to the general public during business hours for walk-in business.
"I asked the question because the ATF investigator who came to my house called zoning and told zoning that an 01 FFL must be open to the public for walk-in business during stated business hours."
That's funny right there. All the wholesale dealers I get stuff from are 01 dealers and they don't sell to the public, nor are they open to the public.
Yet, they have regular business hours. This is why I audio record people.
hey *, just because you are not in a zoning, doesn't mean the house next door isn't either. The boundries have to fall somewhere and hopefully it will be on your property.
You have no business with an ffl, and honestly I would bet you are nto capable of getting a 03 at this point.
You have shown no respect to the agent, you didn't bother to dres, clean up. You are recording everything like people are out to get you as if they think you are up to something, in which I side with them, you are up to somehting.
After all, how and why would zoning be an issue unless you ahve already been denied? If you have been denied, then you have your answer. If not, and you have done everythig by the rules, then shut up and wait.
Personally I am going to call the atf and specifically ask you be declined simply for being a root on the internet.
The County where I am located treats all unincorporated property the same as far as I can tell. This means that all residential property which lies outside of city limits and within the boundaries of the county is subject to the same zoning regulations. Zoning will approve all home occupation businesses that want to sell firearms for appointment only.
I do own NFA weapons and all I need to do to apply for a SOT is get an EIN along with the 01FFL, or maybe an 07FFL.
If you need the investigators name it is william gallivan at the nashville field office. william.gallivan@atf.gov
kurrekt!
This is ATF telling zoning 01 dealers must be open to the public for walk in business, not zoning telling ATF.
"called zoning and told zoning that an 01 FFL must be open to the public for walk-in business during stated business hours."
This is ATF telling zoning 01 dealers must be open to the public for walk in business, not zoning telling ATF.
Correct. This is the original question. Does the ATF license an 01 FFL to have regular hours, but limit customers to show up by appointmnet only? It would appear that this investigator requires an 01 FFL to be open to walk-in customers during business hours.
Put down the hours you will be available to them and you should be good to go, unless you've come off to the inspector as a total idiot and he's going to make life difficult for you.
you seem to share the same mental ability
you came here for an answer.
you didnt like it.
screw off
It is better you dont sell, sounds like you need to get your personal life in order!
I think this has been explained to you at least once, but the reason BATFE wants the hours you are open is so they can visit you when you are open. What hours you keep for your customers is up to you.
Put down the hours you will be available to them and you should be good to go, unless you've come off to the inspector as a total idiot and he's going to make life difficult for you.
I understand that is the reason for business hours on the FFL application, that is not in question as far as I am concerned.
The question is does the ATF require 01 FFLs be open for business to the general public during the business hours listed on the application? If so, is there a requirement that customers may "walk-in" at any time or may access be limited to "by appointment only"?
The overwhelming response, in this thread, is that 01 FFLs may limit access to their business by appointment only. However, the senior industry operations investigator who interviewed me told me and the zoning department that access to the business must be open to walk-in person during business hours. Hence the question of the original post.
This should not difficult. There is one question and one answer. It is either yes, "by appointment only" is okay and ATF will issue an 01 FFL based upon "by appointment only". Or, no, the ATF will not issue a 01 FFL based upon "by appointment only".
are you the moron that thought he figured out the kennedy assassination and went nuts on here?
you seem to share the same mental ability
you came here for an answer.
you didnt like it.
screw off
It is better you dont sell, sounds like you need to get your personal life in order!
What was your answer? The ATF investigator said that hours "by appointment only" are unacceptable. He told zoning that customers must be allowed to "walk-in" during stated business hours. Do you agree with the IOI?
No. You do not have to be open to the general public at all. I know of no wholesalers who are open to the general public and they are 01s.
For some people just breathing is made complicated.
scott
The applicant does seem knowledgeable and sounds polite, as well as the agent.
When the agent is talking about the hours of operation, he was trying to make 2 points. One was that you have to have hours and be open to receive firearms face-to-face with the courier. Two was that the ATF will make its visits during business hours. The agent then went to describe that the entire building is subject to search and was explaining why. The applicant was ignoring everything and waiting for an opening to ask for case law on the subject (dick move) which the agent had already stated that he was giving the section and page number for reference. The explanation the agent was giving was reasonable and doesn't need case law for a reasonable person to accept it. Because of this sidetracking, the applicant missed his opportunity to ask for clarification about being open to the public. Moments later the agent stated that the applicant has the right to reject anyone he doesn't want to do business with and cited examples of how the people can't do anything about it. This may have been dropping a hint and should have been followed up on.
So far I'm thinking that the applicant needs to get clarification on the original thread topic straight from the ATF and if that clarification meets zoning regulations it needs to get from the ATF to the zoning board and everything is good.
So far I'm thinking that the applicant needs to get clarification on the original thread topic straight from the ATF and if that clarification meets zoning regulations it needs to get from the ATF to the zoning board and everything is good.
The ATF will not clarify because if they leave it as is they may deny or approve based upon their own interpretation of what the regulation states. The law states that a dealer must be engaged in the business and obey all local and state laws. Since zoning ordinances are laws if the ATF believes by their interpretation that a zoning ordinance is violated they will not issue a FFL.
In this case the ATF investigator, the who makes the recommendation to approve or deny, has told the zoning department that an 01 FFL must be open to the public for walk-ins during business hours. My zoning approval does not allow for walk-ins as that is considered a retail store. I am only approved by zoning for sales by appointment only during business hours.
This is the wording they used on your form:
"APPLICANT WOULD LIKE TO DO GUN SALES AND RETAIL INTERNET SALES BY APPT ONLY. OTHER THAN WHAT IS REQUIRED BY THE ATF, NO CUSTOMERS ARE ALLOWED ON SITE. NO AMMUNITION SHALL BE STORED ON SITE. NO FIREARMS, OTHER THAN WHAT IS REQUIRED BY THE ATF, CAN BE STORED ON SITE FOR MORE THAN 1 YEAR, AND MUST BE STORED IN A SAFE. NO DISPLAY OF FIREARMS IS PERMITTED. ALL SALES MUST BE DONE BY APPOINTMENT. NO EMPLOYEES PROPOSED, NO SIGNS ALLOWED WITHIN PLATTED SUBDIVISION."
My translation of that gibberish is that they recognize that you intend to run an internet business that involves products and firearms. They seem to understand that the ATF requires you to have customers on site for the purpose of performing the 4473 and telephone check. They intend for you to do this part of the transaction by appointment only and customers are not allowed on site for any other reason.
The part about not being allowed to have firearms on the site, other than for the transaction, and no ammo allowed, is horrifying.
You need a lawyer that does zoning issues. I've lived in a town where zoning laws were selectively enforced too. I was the new resident and a company bought up 50 of the houses for sale to rent out. My house was one that they wanted but I paid more than they would give the previous owner. The result was that I had zoning crap thrown at me for stuff that matched his properties, I got fines, threats, court dates, and I moved to a better town. I ended up taking a 50% loss on that house. Their town hall was corrupt and now I pay my taxes to a town that doesn't crap on me.
This is the wording they used on your form:
"APPLICANT WOULD LIKE TO DO GUN SALES AND RETAIL INTERNET SALES BY APPT ONLY. OTHER THAN WHAT IS REQUIRED BY THE ATF, NO CUSTOMERS ARE ALLOWED ON SITE. NO AMMUNITION SHALL BE STORED ON SITE. NO FIREARMS, OTHER THAN WHAT IS REQUIRED BY THE ATF, CAN BE STORED ON SITE FOR MORE THAN 1 YEAR, AND MUST BE STORED IN A SAFE. NO DISPLAY OF FIREARMS IS PERMITTED. ALL SALES MUST BE DONE BY APPOINTMENT. NO EMPLOYEES PROPOSED, NO SIGNS ALLOWED WITHIN PLATTED SUBDIVISION."
The first sentence is what I am approved to do, gun sales and retail internet sales by appointment only. What follows are a list of requirements which I am fine with. Zoning is allowing me to perform the functions of a gun sales business. It is the ATF that is stating I may not have a license unless I allow people to "walk-in" to the business during stated hours.
Don
So your fishing for a lawsuit, trying to trip up any LEO or government official, be it your local zoning or BATFE... And you want help? LOL
Don
I won't have to sue anyone if they follow the law and issue the license as required by law.
quote:Originally posted by dongizmo
So your fishing for a lawsuit, trying to trip up any LEO or government official, be it your local zoning or BATFE... And you want help? LOL
Don
I won't have to sue anyone if they follow the law and issue the license as required by law.
Get the proper zoning and list hours of operation on you app and you will.... You think taking a meeting with a inspector in you pajamas is going to lend his approval to your application? keep in mind every news media in the country has been trying this for years to make a story, "look at who the BATFE is giving licenses to". (I have personal friends who were targeted by undercover cameras for this)
You make the industry look bad, being a poster boy for who should not be licensed..
Don
Get the proper zoning and list hours of operation on you app and you will.... You think taking a meeting with a inspector in you pajamas is going to lend his approval to your application? keep in mind every news media in the country has been trying this for years to make a story, "look at who the BATFE is giving licenses to". (I have personal friends who were targeted by undercover cameras for this)
You make the industry look bad, being a poster boy for who should not be licensed..
Don
I do have proper zoning. I listed hours on my FFL application.
I don't have anything to hide so film away. I'm going to try and specialize in AR and AK pistols that will give them something to talk about.
quote:Originally posted by dongizmo
Get the proper zoning and list hours of operation on you app and you will.... You think taking a meeting with a inspector in you pajamas is going to lend his approval to your application? keep in mind every news media in the country has been trying this for years to make a story, "look at who the BATFE is giving licenses to". (I have personal friends who were targeted by undercover cameras for this)
You make the industry look bad, being a poster boy for who should not be licensed..
Don
I do have proper zoning. I listed hours on my FFL application.
I don't have anything to hide so film away. I'm going to try and specialize in AR and AK pistols that will give them something to talk about.
No, you don't, you must have hours of operation, and by your zoning, you can't have hours of operation.[;)]
You sure you don't want to specialize in orange tipped Drakos?..
Don
No, you don't, you must have hours of operation, and by your zoning, you can't have hours of operation.[;)]
You sure you don't want to specialize in orange tipped Drakos?..
Don
All businesses have hours of operation, if they did not how would they operate? My zoning allows me to operate an business by appointment only.
I'm not interested in getting an 07 FFL to work on guns, just an 01.
"Open 24 Hours, Just Not In A Row."
IBTL
IBTL
Maybe...
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=hts&oq=&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4ADRA_enUS445US446&q=kwikrnu
...we'll see.
t r o l l
IBTL
That is funny coming from someone who joined my thread and added nothing of worth. You haven't even tried to answer the valid question I asked in the original post.
Just continue to follow the footsteps of dongizmo and you'll have 14K posts with no substance.
How about this?
"Open 24 Hours, Just Not In A Row."
I can't stop laughing. Let's see.. subdivision in residential neighborhood. Probably a 1/4-1/2 acre lot with a home on it. You can stand in the drive and throw a rock .. not to the house next door but to the one next to it and take out a window. Parking would be minimal. Zoning says NO business's in residential neighborhoods. Well only thing I see happening is.. maybe a garage sale once a year or pending zoning . Rent a building somewhere if you feel the need.
I can't stop laughing. Let's see.. subdivision in residential neighborhood. Probably a 1/4-1/2 acre lot with a home on it. You can stand in the drive and throw a rock .. not to the house next door but to the one next to it and take out a window. Parking would be minimal. Zoning says NO business's in residential neighborhoods. Well only thing I see happening is.. maybe a garage sale once a year or pending zoning . Rent a building somewhere if you feel the need.
2 1/2 acre lot and zoning has already approved my home business. The ATF has already approved my neighbor for an 01 FFL based upon the same zoning ordinances.