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THE CONFEDERATE FLAG (the Myth)

n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
edited July 2002 in General Discussion
What was the reason for the Civil War? There was only one main issue:
choose one:

A. Land
B. Slavery
C. Money
D. Power

What Flag Flew over this Nation that had 240 yrs of Slavery?
Choose one:

A. The Stars and Bars (Union)
B. The Confederate Flag (Southern

Did you Know that we were one nation, under one Flag until the south was forced to ceceed from the union, and that the Stars and Bars was the national Flag.

The Confederate Flag was Flown for only 4 yrs in the 240 yr history of slavery.

The reason the confederate flag was adopted by the south was not for a National flag, but as a Battle Flag, It was during a battle at Manasses, when the leaders of the south, with all the smoke from cannon and gunfire, could not distinguish the current flag that the south was flying from the stars and bars,it was because of the confusion in the two flags that the Confederate battle flag was born.

So, I ask why so much Hatred for this flag, History is notoriously written by the Winners, and the truth is sometimes left out.

The Confederate flag was not a Flag of Slavery. It is a Battle Flag, Used in Tribute to the gallant men that Fought for their principles.

I could give you some very disturbing facts, backed up by the archives in washington, on the Civil War, slavery, and the intentions of the North

The Civil War could have been overted if the South had met the demands of the north and paid the 40% tarrif on all goods produced in the south, insted of the 10% they were already paying.

The Civil war in answer to the first question was Fought over

MONEY

In answer to the second question:

The Stars and Bars was the Flag that Flew over a Nation of Slavery for 236 of 240 yrs of Slavery.

So why do people Hate the Confederat Flag.








"A wise man is a man that realizes just how little he knows"
«1

Comments

  • trooperchintrooperchin Member Posts: 2,632 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    BRAVO. Im glad to see that someone knows the truth about The flag the my great great great etc grandfather fought under. About 2 months ago i tried to get a thread about the south/war of northern aggresion going but it was "shot down". ......Thank the KKK for misusing the flag as a racist symbol. You by chance a member of the Sons Of Confederate Veterans?

    Go Army Beat Navy
    IF you wanna have fun jine the cavalry
  • thesoundguy1thesoundguy1 Member Posts: 680
    edited November -1
    The Confederate battle flag has been adopted by a lot of hate groups,
    who peddle a doctrine of hate,under the moniker of national,and/or
    racial identity.These people use the spirit of the Confederacy,which
    was a rebellion against an ever increasingly powerful Federal government,to push racial seperation,because they are ignorant of the real reasons for the Civil War.
    Basically,poor P.R.on behalf of supporters of the flag,and it's
    true ideals.

    www.waveformwear.com
    fighting censorship...with an attitude
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    NO Im am not a member of the sons of the confederacy,

    I had relatives that fought on both sides. I have done extensive research on the subject, and have found that historians (mostly Northern) have distorted the truth about the south.

    Did you know that in the 240 yrs of slavery in this country, the north was the first to have slaves.

    Not one slave was brought to our shores on a Southern boat.

    I could go on and on with the facts, but the simple fact is, The confederate flag had nothing to do with slavery.



    "A wise man is a man that realizes just how little he knows"
  • trooperchintrooperchin Member Posts: 2,632 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    LTS are you in the Sons Of Confederate Veterans?
    www.scv.org
    We are dedicated in preserving the Memories of our grandfathers who fought during the war for what was right.

    Go Army Beat Navy
    IF you wanna have fun jine the cavalry
  • rg666rg666 Member Posts: 395 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Classic95 I beleive you are mistaken. Maryland is south of the Mason Dixon line & therefore is considered a southern state. Many slaves were brought to Maryland prior to the Civil war into Baltimore & the Chesapeake Bay area. I agree with you about the Confederate flag though. It has been wrongly used as negative symbol for hate groups etc. My family has been here since 1737. We have fought as proud Americans in every war since then. RG
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    The war was waged by the government of the United states not in the spirit off conquest or subjugation, nor for the purpose of overthrowing or interfering with the rights or institutions of the states, but to defend and protect the Union "Congress said the war is not about slavery. Lincils said the war was not about slavery.

    Lincoln said "I will give you the thirteenth amendment that will allow you to make slavery permanent"

    Lincoln said "We will let you keep your slaves if that is what you want,You just let us have the 40% tarrif on your goods."

    In other words the North was willing to sell the slaves out for money, in the for of higher taxes.

    Lincoln also said " If I could save the Union without freeing any slaves I would do it"

    So the Civil War was not fought about slavery, it was fought over MONEY

    These Quotes are taken from the Congressional Archives

    LR

    "A wise man is a man that realizes just how little he knows"
  • Gordian BladeGordian Blade Member Posts: 1,202 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I go with Saxon as to the root causes. Read the declarations of secession of the states, I'll have a link at the end. Here is a quote from the Mississippi declaration:

    Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.

    http://americancivilwar.com/documents/
  • NighthawkNighthawk Member Posts: 12,022 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Actually the flag is our heritage here in the South.They done made them move the canons because they said it represented Racism thats Bull.I want say no more,but we all have a right to celebrate our heritage.Thats why its called heritage its the past.As long as we live under one flag now thats what matters now!!

    Happy 4th!!

    Rugster
  • RockinURockinU Member Posts: 248
    edited November -1
    Slaves were also brought into Lousiana
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation, not to free the slaves but as a war measure.

    It was designed to cause insurrection among the slaves in the south.
    Thinking he could overt war in doing so. But not one slave lifted a hand.

    Lincoln thought such an insurrection would force men to go home and defend their homes an families, therefor no war with the south.

    Did you know that there were over 300,000 slave owners in the northern armies.

    Did you know that General Robert E. Lee, inherited slaves, and then freed them.

    Did you know that General Grant, who later became President, even after the war refused to give up his slaves, His statement was "Good help is hard to find"

    Slavery was not the issue, not until political revisionists and the politically correct people wanted to make it the issue.

    "A wise man is a man that realizes just how little he knows"
  • RockinURockinU Member Posts: 248
    edited November -1
    me thinks he doth protest too much.
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    I am not protesting.

    Just tired of all the POLITICALLY CORRECT trying to take our heritage from us.

    Everything I posted on this subject is fact and can be verified in the Archives.

    The Few always want to impose their views on the many.

    "A wise man is a man that realizes just how little he knows"
  • RockinURockinU Member Posts: 248
    edited November -1
    I don't think they are trying to take our heritage, the liberals don't want us to forget what horrible people we come from. Not withstanding my distaste for the liberals, it's not their fault that the confederate battle flag is on the way out, it's not the fault of the NAACP either. You can only blame that on groups of stupid (and much to my embarrasment mainly southern) white people who use it as a sign to promote hate. I would never, ever display southern pride using a confederate battle flag, just because I would be mortified to be mistaken for these uneducated souless trash.

    As to the rest of it, random facts from a whole never tell the whole story. To say that the entire civil war was just about money, and had nothing to do with slavery is a bit naive. There were many little things that caused it...money, slavery, opposing political views, and very probably personal egos.

    Anyone that tries to tell me that one side was completely to blame, and holds complete responsibility, well I can't take that seriously. I guess my point is to not let your pride of heritage blind you from the truth that in any war no side is ever without a share of the blame, and accept the shortcomings of your heritage just as you accept the accolades
  • MercuryMercury Member Posts: 7,842 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I agree with RockinU.

    The flag represents to most of the world redneck trailer trash who are racists and uneducated.

    A shame, because that isn't really what it is about.

    It is very similar to the "gun owner image" in my opinion.

    Most of our problem isn't GUNS, it is OUR IMAGE.

    Every time someone is on the news in camos talking about "the revolution" it does that much more damage. :(

    Merc (who is in favor of a revolution!!!!!)



    NO! You may not have my guns! Now go crawl back into your hole!

    ****************************************

    "Tolerating things you may not necessarily like is part of being free" - Larry Flynt
  • jokor3jokor3 Member Posts: 75 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    IS GOVERNMENT REGULATED AND IMPOSED INTERGRATION A MAIN CAUSE IN PROMOTING REVERSE DISCRIMINATION?? AND IS THIS A SO CALLED PRESENT DAY FORM OS SLAVERY????////
  • RockinURockinU Member Posts: 248
    edited November -1
    There is no such thing as "reverse" discrimination...discrimination is dicrimination, is discrimination, period.
  • E.WilliamsE.Williams Member Posts: 1,101 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have always viewed the confederate battle flag as a symbol of the unity of the south to stand and fight together for something they beleived i.I think it had less to do with wanting to keep slaves and more to do with not wanting to be told how to live.Alot of the ones who were looked on as slaves by outside eyes were just hired hands working for room and board and food.Which occurs everyday even now.People get on southerners for flying that flag.But it is part of my history just about the same as black history month or being referred to as african american.Im not referred to as Irish/Indian/American so let me keep atleast that small piece as a symbol of my forefathers.I know I will catch some flack for that opinion but thats what it is.MY OPINION.Just a southeners take on the matter

    Eric S. Williams
  • jokor3jokor3 Member Posts: 75 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    REVERSE DISCRIMINATION DOES EXIST BUT I GUESS TO NORTHERNERS THEY HAVE NOT ESPERIENCED IT YET.
  • 223believer223believer Member Posts: 128 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I agree, Classic! And in 1939 Germany was just trying
    to get a tiny bit of elbow room! Oh, and the Japanese
    HAD to attack Pearl Harbor because the American imperialists
    were ruining their economy and way of life! Thank God
    we're finally getting to the TRUTH!
  • sig-mansig-man Member Posts: 591 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    My great grandfather was in the klan in the 20's-30's, and all the pictures I've seen of all the ceremony's the only flag I see is the American flag...

    R.I.P 45, 28, 3
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    There is a common misperception that the Confederate battle flag (the "Southern Cross") was the national flag of the Confederacy. In reality, the flag we most associate with the Confederacy was strictly a battle flag-and not the only battle flag used. The Confederacy actually changed its national flag three times during the course of the war.

    Another misperception is that in a number of Southern states some version of the Confederate flag had been flown without interruption since the Civil War. For the most part, the Southern states that raised the Confederate battle flag or incorporated it into their state flag did so during the 1950s and 1960s, in a defiant stand against integration. Denmark Groover, the Georgia House floor leader who in 1956 sponsored the legislation to add the Southern Cross into the state flag, has freely admitted as much. He maintains that he and many of Georgia's legislators at the time were staunch segregationists who had urged that the Confederate symbol be added to the flag as a protest against federal integration orders. In 2001, 45 years later, Groover, now retired, again voiced his opinion on Georgia's flag, this time advocating that the divisive symbol be removed


    "A wise man is a man that realizes just how little he knows"
  • 96harley96harley Member Posts: 3,992 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    It's part of our history. It's a free country remember that. It's funny but the very people who cry tolerance are the most intolerant.
    Stars and Bars fly high for you represent a stand against oppression.
    A northerner who sides with my southern brothers. 33rd Virginia, HURRAH!
  • salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,396 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Lincoln was the first president who was elected without winning any southern states. Every other presidential election prior to lincoln, the winner won states in both the North and the South. It was the first truly divicive presidential election in our countries history.
    It should seem obvious, that the South felt that the Federal government was no longer a government which would be constrained by its limited powers, and a government that worked under the will of the governed-it was now a government where majority would rule-and since the North was the majority, Southern issues would not matter. Rather than succumb to the will of the Majority(the north), the South left the Union-which they had every right to do.
    As far as the North being these great abolitionists-what nonsense! It is beleived that less than one percent of the North were true abolitionists.
    The reason that the North did not want any more slave states, was because they had a real problem with the 3/5s majority rule, and knew that the new Slave states would have more representation in Congress-based on the fact that Slaves would be counted. Of course, the new slave states would align themselves with the South, and the North feared this because there majority over the Southern states would die, and they would no longer be able to exert their will on the South. All those tarrifs that the Federal government created(under northern domination)which the South paid because they were heavy importers, would be reduced or abolished all together if the states that paid the enormous tarrifs had enough representation in Congress to vote away the tariffs. Without the tarrifs, the North would not be able to pay for all of the "federal internal improvements" that happpend almost exclusively in the North. It was much better for the North to keep the South reduced to the Norths *. Collect money from the South, bring it on up North, and give those Northerners a nice bit of Federal improvements-while doing nothing for the SOuth.

    One has to wonder why, if the war was fought over slavery, why were there Northern States where slavery was legal? Missouri, Kentucky, W. Virginia, and Maryland all had slavery-why didnt the Union clean there own house before going to another country to wipe away the evil of slavery.
    Why didnt Abraham Lincoln emancapate all of the Slaves in the United States-why did the emancipation stop short of freeing the slaves that were in the Slave states mentioned above? Again, if it was about ridding the country of slavery, then one would assume they would have cleaned their own house.
    Lincolns platform was hardly an abolitionist platform-there are countless speeches where Lincoln talks about how the white race is superior, how slavery was not an issue for him-and one of my favorites-where he actually say that even if he was president, he could not abolish slavery, because the constitution prevented him from doing so, because it was an issue for the states to decide(guess him and the North changed their mind about that-the constitution be damned).
    Lincolns platform was an extension of the Whig platform of a strong centralized government. He wanted to set up a Federal bank(unconstitutional), and he wanted to have the government subsidize industry for internal improvements(unconstitutional). In a nut shell-Lincolns platform was having all the power in this country reside in Washington.
    A strong centralized government was about the last thing the Southern states wanted-Philosophically, they beleived states had all of the rights to governing(Jefferson, Jackson, Henry, etc), and the constitution says they were right.

    "The powers delegated by the proposed constitution to the federal governmentare few and defined, and will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace negotiation, and foreign commerce"
    -James Madison
  • nunnnunn Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 36,085 ******
    edited November -1
    THANK YOU, CLASSIC!!!!!!!!!!!

    It is good to see the non-PC truth, when so many have been blinded by liberal propaganda. Sad fact is that history is usually written by the victors.

    My son has a Confederate battle flag on the wall of his room, and he sometimes wears a shirt with a renditon of that flag on it. I asked him what it meant to display that flag. He said it represents part of our history and heritage. I asked him if he thought it represents racism, slavery, or hatred. He looked at me as though I had just landed in a flying saucer. "NO!" was his reply.

    PS: There were a number of black free men who fought for the Confederacy as a matter of choice.

    No I am not a racist. I don't hate anyone. I think slavery was a bad thing, but practiced to a greater degree and for a longer period in the United States than in the Confederate States.

    I am not a member of any group. I think the KKK is a bunch of morons.

    All my family was poor. Most immigrated here well after the War Between the States was over. Many worked alongside former slaves as sharecroppers. (Sharecropping = A form of slavery)

    It amazes me that even among this fairly conservative audience, how many buy into the popular liberal version of history.

    SIG pistol armorer/FFL Dealer/Full time Peace Officer, Moderator of General Discussion Board on Gunbroker. Visit www.gunbroker.com, the best gun auction site on the Net! Email davidnunn@texoma.net
  • trooperchintrooperchin Member Posts: 2,632 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I would love to know the units that supposedly turned over to the north. When exactly did the fighting get bad during 1861? The south had a MANY MANY black troops fighting for their cause. My great great grandfater etc. owned a farm and didnt own ANY slaves. Less than 10% of the South owned slaves and of that 10% that owned them something like 5% of slave owners owned more than 5.
    Lincoln lovers- Lincoln broke the constitution many times in the state of Maryland. Maryland would of suceeded if Abe hadnt orderd Gen. Beast Butlter to bring cannons ontop of Federal hill in baltimore during the night. Butlter then arrested all people who were against the feds. ie: Took away the rigth to Habeus (sp?) Corpus the Right to own FIREARMS ... Ill type more stuff down when i get back.....

    Go Army Beat Navy
    IF you wanna have fun jine the cavalry
  • 223believer223believer Member Posts: 128 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I agree with everything about the confederate flag,
    how it stands for states' rights and a love of
    freedom and for the valiant bravery of so many
    pure-of-heart southern soldiers.

    As we free the flag from PC shackles, we need to
    realize that other important symbols need to be
    freed as well. The swastika was an ancient
    Indian symbol according to some, a mark created
    by northern Europeans according to others.
    Regardless, it's nothing more than a symbol and
    all Americans should be proud to display it.

    Along with the swastika, we need to revive the
    straight-arm salute. Years and years ago that
    was the proper way to salute the flag, and we
    should bring it back.

    Once we've revived the confederate flag, the
    swastika, and the straight-arm salute, we will
    truly have moved forward as a nation. I know
    all of you will join me in this cause.
  • gruntledgruntled Member Posts: 8,218 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    The purpose of the tarrif was to force people to buy from northern factories instead of cheaper inports. This was much the same as the practice the British used before the First War for Independence & was one of the major causes of that war.
  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I also love the myth that Lincoln was some kind of GREAT emancipator. Let's take a look at the opening sentence of the Emancipation Proclomation:

    "That on the 1st day of January, A.D. 1863, all persons held as slaves within any State or designated part of a State the people whereof shall then be in rebellion against the United States shall be then, thenceforward, and forever free...."

    HELLO! He only emancipated the slaves within the sates that were in rebellion!!!
  • Jody CommanderJody Commander Member Posts: 855 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I am a member of the SCV and proud of My heritage,the flag is a symbol of that heritage, and as such, has as much value as any other banner or symbol including the National Flag now in use. I do not support it's prescence in any Federal,state or local government installation except in a historical context, it is history, and should be respected and treated the same as any other object of this great nations past.Those who attach any onus to the banner of the Southern cause do so out of ignorance or malice.
  • charlie15charlie15 Member Posts: 937 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    To those that say the civil war was fought over slavery. Question: when lincoln signed the emancipation proclamation, why did the war not stop? The slaves were free, but the war went on.


    Home Owner, Truck Owner, Gun Owner's why nobody owns me!!
  • RockinURockinU Member Posts: 248
    edited November -1
    quote:
    REVERSE DISCRIMINATION DOES EXIST BUT I GUESS TO NORTHERNERS THEY HAVE NOT ESPERIENCED IT YET.




    I say again...discrimination is discrimination is discrimination, no matter who it is pointed at, it needs no qualifiers. And I'm pretty far south bud.
  • RockinURockinU Member Posts: 248
    edited November -1
    I agree with everyone that says the battle flag should represent our heritage, and nothing more, but sadly there are groups who purposefully use it as a tool of hate, and I don't know how to counteract that...as I said earlier, it's not the liberal's fault (I can't believe I can say that) it's the ignorant pigs that use it as a hate symbol, and the sad fact it that they do, and I'm not talking about the KKK of the early half of the last century, I"m talking about the hate groups you see today waving the battle flag and spewing hate...makes me sick.
  • The LawThe Law Member Posts: 2,287 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    ........RockinU......I've made you famous...though you'll have to worry ............about what to do with the gay guy.........and how to explain him to your kin!... Law out...........

    "What we have here... is Failure to Communicate"
    "The Board Law"
  • RugerNinerRugerNiner Member Posts: 12,636 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I got this from the encylopedia and I'm not saying another thing on the subject:

    But most historians agree that the war had a number of causes. They note especially the sectional division between North and South-that is, the differences in economies, ideals, and ways of life. They also point to the disputes between the federal government and the states over what rights and powers the states possessed. Historians further mention the blunderings of politicians and the disorder in the American political party system during the 1850's.



    Remember...Terrorist are attacking Civilians; Not the Government. Protect Yourself!
    Keep your Powder dry and your Musket well oiled.
    NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
  • bhayes420bhayes420 Member Posts: 1,314 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hey Saxon...I want one of those books when they are ready. I am a huge Civil War buff. Used to live down the street from Shelby Foote in Memphis. Had some great times talking to him. And not because of the book, but I agree with what you have said. Let me ask everyone this. Tennessee was a Confederate state. In which army did more TN citizens fight in? Union or Confederate? Might surprise you, but more fought in the Union Army than the Confederate Army. Not that it adds anything to the discussion, but I thought it was interesting.
  • trooperchintrooperchin Member Posts: 2,632 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    JodyCommander, what camp are you in? Im in Pvt.Wallace Bowling camp 1400. Also If the Emancipation Proclomation (sp?) freed all the slaves then why werent any slaves freed? Im not exactly sure how a President of another country can tell the people of another country what they could do??

    Go Army Beat Navy
    IF you wanna have fun jine the cavalry
  • trooperchintrooperchin Member Posts: 2,632 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Ahhhhh the western part of the war... IM a bit shady on that side. All i know was the NATHEN BEDFORD FOREST kicked the crap out of the federal cav!

    Go Army Beat Navy
    IF you wanna have fun jine the cavalry
  • Gordian BladeGordian Blade Member Posts: 1,202 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I think a lot of gun enthusiasts are also Civil War enthusiasts. I'm happy the discussion has stayed at high level, there are some interesting points.

    Lincoln is a President people tend either to love or hate. Preserving the Union was his primary goal, everything else revolved around that. He felt that if the Union failed, the great political experiment of a democratic republic would fail. You can agree or disagree. You might also say that by subverting the Constitution at several points, the ideal of a democratic republic based on a constitution limiting governmental powers did in fact fail. You might say that the concept of a big and powerful federal government started with Lincoln. Despite my admiration of Lincoln, those are good points.

    Lincoln had no legal ability to free the slaves in general. The Emancipation Proclamation was meant as a way to stick it to the states in rebellion, I think everyone agrees on that. And of course it only worked where Union force of arms could make it work. It took a Constitutional Amendment to abolish slavery everywhere. But in practical terms, the Emancipation Proclamation and subsequent military events freed more slaves (as a percentage of the population) in one act than anything else since Moses vs. Pharaoh. That's why Lincoln is called the Great Emancipator.

    There is no way I can see of getting from the United States of 1800 to the United States of 1900 without major social disruption over the issue of slavery somewhere in that time period. It was a time bomb that was ticking from the beginning. There was so much at stake, I don't see how armed conflict could have been avoided, either of the Bloody Kansas type or outright war.
  • will270winwill270win Member Posts: 4,845
    edited November -1
    To be as honest as I can, I don't give a flying whoop what that war was over. I am a southern born American and I will fly the Confederate flag as it is part of our history. Just like God in the Pledge, if you don't like it, leave it alone.


    ~Secret Select Society Of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets~
  • robsgunsrobsguns Member Posts: 4,581 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I am sitting here watching the History Channel, and a bit of interesting info. has come across important to this discussion. Thomas Jefferson, the writer of the Declaration of Independence, originally wrote into the document that the abolishing of slavery should occur, however it was taken out of the document due to the insistence of nearly every member of the 2nd Continental Congress, those members responsible for reviewing the Declaration of Independence, and adding and subtracting from the document what was deemed important. Slavery could not be abolished then, due to economic reasons for the south, and it still held true later when the Civil War began. This being said, never let it be said that this country was ever founded without the full intention of slavery of blacks by every founding father of this country, thus, makeing the north no better than the south. This doesnt say a lot for the moral/ethical backbone of our nation, from the very word go. Our founding fathers knew damn well they were setting their grand children up for a hell of a future, due to their lack of moral courage. They chose to do so for the economic gains, as well as the immediate need for the labor the blacks would provide for the imminent war and the supplies needed to fight such a war. This decision may have been a wise one to win the immediate battle for freedom, but it was a damning decision for the future of the country, still felt today. It sounds to me as if the self proclaimed righteous biggots from the northern states need to review their history and shut their mouths if any of them think that the south is entirely responsible for slavery and the civil war, because it wasnt the south, it was our founding fathers, period. When discussing the slavery issue further, which was not the original intent of this thread I believe, you really need to go further back to the founding of the country, that is all I intended to convey in my post. I dont believe the south is responsible for slavery at all, nor do I belive that the southern flag stands for slavery, quite the opposite in fact. The flag of the original 13 colonies, used during the Revolutionary War, and after the war, that is the flag that should be tied to slavery here in the U.S. today, not the flag of the South. My .02 cents worth, wow, what you can learn from the History Channel.

    SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC
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