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3030 vs 12 guage

salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,396 ✭✭
edited February 2002 in General Discussion
Just curious about opinions on which gun hunters prefer in the thick stuff- a 3030 or a 12 guage slug gun. I hunt with both in two different places. One place I have to use a slug gun, the other place I am allowed to use a rifle, though the stuff is thicker than the place I HAVE to use a shotgun. I use the 3030, for the simple reason that I want to use a rifle when I am allowed to do so. In both places I am lucky to get a maximum shot of 50 yards, with most of my shots being under twenty.So which works better in those conditions- 12 Guage, or 3030.
Happiness is a warm gun
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  • instrumentofwarinstrumentofwar Member Posts: 1,545 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    whichever you shoot best and feel more comfortable with
    The world is full of sheep, run with the wolves and make 'em call ya daddy
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  • BullzeyeBullzeye Member Posts: 3,560
    edited November -1
    Most of the area around me is only slugs. I've got to go way up north to rifle hunt.I seriously question the point of it, though. I understand it has something to do with residential density, but since you already arent allowed to hunt within 300 ft. of a residence, and most hunting areas are well out of residential areas, how effective is it really?I dont think I've ever heard of someone being killed by a .30-06 going through a deer, 300 yards to their house, through aluminum siding, two layers of insulation, 2 pine boards and drywall and killing them.
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  • RembrandtRembrandt Member Posts: 4,486 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Shooting in the "thick stuff" sort of implies that one might be shooting through brush without a clear shot....guess that implication always troubles me a little. As a Hunter Education Instructor we have always taught students to identify your target clearly before squeezing one off. Brush or limbs can sometimes defect a shot and who knows where that might go...I don't mean to imply that you are hunting that way, it's just the perception I got when reading it. I would compare the 12 gauge to a Semi truck driving through the woods....and the 30-30 more like a pickup truck...if velocities are similar then mass wins...
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  • salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,396 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Rembrandt- I dig your analogy. And if it makes you feel better as a hunters safety teacher, Ill tell you that I wont even shoot at a deer through a blade of grass(well that might be a bit of a stretch).
    Happiness is a warm gun
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  • salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,396 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Rembrandt- Just wanted to give you a Clintonian vocabulary lesson. I said "in the thick stuff", which implies being physically in the thick stuff. Which implies having "few shots" because of all the thickness, and very short shots, because of the thickness.If I said "through the thick stuff", then I think your thoughts about me being of a "brush buster" mind set would apply.I guess I could reduce what I am saying to "At shots 50 yards or less, whats better a 12guage or a 3030".
    Happiness is a warm gun
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  • RembrandtRembrandt Member Posts: 4,486 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Salzo, no problem...sometimes what a guy reads gets translated into the wrong mental picture....12 gauge would be pretty hard to beat for the distances you're hunting...unless you're hunting those little midget deer like they have in Florida, then that would be cruel and unusual punishment.
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  • TxsTxs Member Posts: 17,809 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Not directly related to your topic, but this reminded me of the first time I saw 30-30 penetration demonstrated.A scorned good ol' boy had emptied his Winchester 94 into a house as he walked around it. Every one of his rounds completely penetrated the house, which had wooden exterior walls. Each of these had passed through at least two interior walls, with some going through furniture and/or a human. One round even took the head off an Elvis wine decanter sitting on a shelf. Just about every wall in this house had holes the size of golf balls. Nothing in there would have served as cover.I don't think this round would even notice a few twigs or blades of grass.
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  • nordnord Member Posts: 6,106 ✭
    edited November -1
    A 12 ga. at short range will stop any animal in North America... For that matter most of the world. A 30-30 isn't quite up to that job even at point blank range.So... If you happen to be a'fishin on some remote Alaskan stream... What do you carry as a last chance weapon (just in case Mr. Griz won't be reasonable)?Or if you're out hunting upland game?Or if you decide to bag Mr. Buck at just a few yards?Or if you need to have a handy weapon somewhere within reach in your home that's lethal to an intruder, but can leave your kids safe behind just 1/2 inch of sheetrock?Count the votes!
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  • UnclePatUnclePat Member Posts: 77 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    To use slugs, do you need a special gun or will most any 12ga. accept them? I shoot with a Beretta 390.
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  • salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,396 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    If you have a 12 guage, you can use slugs. If you do not have a rifled slug barrel for your 12 guage, use foster style slugs. DO NOT USE SABOTS! The most open choke is best.TXS- SHOT AN ELVIS WINE DECANTER??!! That is messed up. You shouldnt be shooting at "E"
    Happiness is a warm gun
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  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    If you are using slugs in a smooth-bore, you will want to go with a slug that is specially designed for smooth-bore shotguns to provide maximum accuracy. I would go with a Brenneke slug. Also, you don't want to use a tight choke. I would stick with a Cylinder Bore choke. I have a rifled shotgun barrel designed for slugs that I can throw on my Mossberg 835 Ulti-Mag so I don't know much more about smooth-bores and slugs. Someone please correct me if I have erred or have left something out.
    SSG idsman75, U.S. ARMY
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  • 7mm_ultra_mag_is_king7mm_ultra_mag_is_king Member Posts: 676 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I would stick with the 12 guage, I'm not a good enough hunter to use a 30-30.Can't get close enough to the deer to hit 'em over the head with it.
    when all else fails........................
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  • salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,396 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Adams Quail Hunter-Thanks for the info-Now please delete it before any other lefties see it!ps. I hope you made out alright with those locks
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  • BullzeyeBullzeye Member Posts: 3,560
    edited November -1
    Just make sure the barrel your shooting the slugs out of isnt a pre-choked shot-barrel (with the barrel slowly sloping inward towards the end) or you'll fudge the barrel but good.
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  • will270winwill270win Member Posts: 4,845
    edited November -1
    Brenneke, now that's a serious piece of lead. Where can I find me a Remington with a smooth slug barrel? Now look what ya did!
    If you can't fix it with a hammer, take it to a mechanic. will270win@aol.com ~Secret Select Society Of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets~
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  • AdamsQuailHunterAdamsQuailHunter Member Posts: 2,022 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Sorry to butt-in again --- but there is a .50 caliber flintlock rifle on Gunbroker auction that will be ending soon. It is a left hander. It is item 3008138. You may have already see it, but I thought I should let you know about it just in case.Now I will butt-out again and shut-up again.
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  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I've got both Brennekes and BRI Sabots in my slug box, and my current shotgun is a cylinder bore 870. I was under the impression that the BRI stays in the case until it exits the bore and therefore may be shot through a cylinder bore, but of course that doesn't address accuracy. Any thoughts on BRI sabots? (Are they still made, or did somebody buy them out?)
    "The 2nd Amendment is about defense, not hunting. Long live the gun shows, and reasonable access to FFLs. Join the NRA -- I'm a Life Member."
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  • robsgunsrobsguns Member Posts: 4,581 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bullzeye, I'm going to do what I dont normally do, only because I think I can do it constructively. A question was posed, your answer was given, in two instances. Neither instance that you gave an answer in, had anything to do with the question. Did you realize this, but didnt have anything relevant to say, or did you misunderstand the question? I brought this up only for one reason. I have noticed this on more than one occasion. You MAY, not for sure, but MAY want to stick to the questions that you have relevant input on, so as to not make yourself such an easy target, aka BULLZEYE.
    SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC
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  • robsgunsrobsguns Member Posts: 4,581 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    In close cover, I'd go with a 12 guage with slugs, they're awesome. I like to shoot the Remington Copper Solids. Close up or at distances they're awesome. If you sight in for distance, however, the 12ga. tends to shoot high at close quarters. So then I'd opt for the 30/30 if I need to have the versatility of brush gun, close up, but with the possibility of a distant 150 yd. shot. My .02 cents. Can you use buckshot where you're at? Just wondering, that makes the answer a little different.Did you know that the diam. of 00 buck is the same as your 30/30, .308? Interesting, eh? Nice tight choke, no slugs now, just buck shot, and you have 8, count 'em, 8 .308 diameter pellets coming out of the muzzle, with enough energy to kill a deer at close range, in thick cover, giving you the advantage in brush. UM, at least 8, maybe more, I reload with 8.
    SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC[This message has been edited by robsguns (edited 02-03-2002).]
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  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    robsguns--Bullzeye made a comment in his second post that was directed towards a previous comment made in this thread. You absolutely SHOULD follow his advice if you are unfamiliar with slugs and smooth-bores. His initial post in this thread addressed an opinion of his about restricting certain areas to "shotgun only". It was a comment in response to a comment made by salzo. It was pertinent although it did not address the question directly. This is the stinking General Discussion forum! Let's not get so anally retentive that we have to analyze absolutely every single word to determine if it was suitable and pertinant to the initial post. Take a look at the Smoking Jacket Club post. It's probably the longest post here on the GD board. How many of those 467 posts on that thread had absolutely anything to do with the initial post or the price of tea in China? Not many. Lighten up man.
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  • BullzeyeBullzeye Member Posts: 3,560
    edited November -1
    You da man, Sarge.
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  • old single shotsold single shots Member Posts: 3,594
    edited November -1
    Let,s see if i can get myself in trouble on this post as others have.Bullseye stated that shooting a slug through a choked barrel will damage it.I have to disagree.A slug can be fired through a full choked barrel with no damage.It may not be accurate, but it will do NO damage.
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  • RugerNinerRugerNiner Member Posts: 12,636 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I would say shotgun on flat terrain, rifle in hilly or mountainous. This is a safty issue in some states like New Jersey.
    Remember...Terrorist are attacking Civilians; Not the Government. Protect Yourself!
    Keep your Powder dry and your Musket well oiled.
    NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
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  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Now that we have that cleared up, my honest question still hangs out there in the wind. What is the opinion on BRI sabots through a cylinder bore? If we are going to compare .3030 to 12 ga. we might as well get the mechanics right, and when it comes to slugs I'm not a frequent user.But I do have a supply of BRIs and Brennekes and have wondered whether I needed a rifle-bored slug gun in addition to my 870 SP cylinder bore to shoot slugs properly. I guess the bottom line question is, do slugs vary in terms of best delivery system or what?
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  • salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,396 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Offeror- I am not certain about the slugs you specifically mentioned, but you did say they were SABOTS. It is my understanding, that you DO NOT shoot Sabots through a smooth barrel. They must be shot through a rifled barrel.
    Happiness is a warm gun
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  • old single shotsold single shots Member Posts: 3,594
    edited November -1
    It is my understanding that sabot slugs are designed to be used in a rifled slug barrel.The brenneke slugs are designed for a smooth bore.Usually cyl. bore gives the best results.I do know that with 2 identical shotguns, one may group well,the other poorly. Why?? i don't know. I would say try several brands on target and see what results you get.Don't get me wrong,i am not trying to be a (know it all) just my thoughts.
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  • BullzeyeBullzeye Member Posts: 3,560
    edited November -1
    What I meant to say was, there are certain barrels (the name of which I cant remember), that gradually telescope in towards the end of the barrel until it gets to the end. The end ends up being much smaller than the 12-16 ga. size of the barrel at the beginning.I understand they're designed for skeet and birds only, because a bird-shot column can obviously still fit out the end, while a slug would just rip the barrel open when it got too small.
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  • robsgunsrobsguns Member Posts: 4,581 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    idsman75, Now see, there you go. I was ribbing Bullzeye, and now I've been called analy retentive, why the insult? Did I offend you? I dont call you or anyone else here things I'd rather not be called, how about a little courtesy? I can take all the criticism you would like to deliver, but how about keeping it off a personal level, so as to keep the environment professional. Bullzeye wasnt offended, and I think he even understood my tongue in cheek fun pokeing.
    SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC
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  • 218Beekeep218Beekeep Member Posts: 3,033
    edited November -1
    Rembrandt,I`m back...and I saw what you said. .218 = Flarda brush buster.
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  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    robsguns--Didn't catch the tounge-in-cheek and wasn't trying to be personal. I was just calling it as I saw it. That's one of the downsides of reading typed text. You don't get the non-verbal communication along with the verbal. My apologies if I was out of line. I guess it was a knee-jerk reaction after all the ribbing that Bullzeye has been taking. So he had an indescretion. It's water under the bridge. I know that I was far less knowledgable than Bullzeye when I was his age until I met an absolute gun nut (compliment) from California. No harm and no foul intended. Just trying to keep things on an even playing field. If it was mere pot-stirring and general good-natured ribbing then I laugh with the rest of us.Also, I understand that you can fire a slug through a choked barrel without causing damage. However, due to the loss of accuracy, it wouldn't be smart or ethical if you were trying to make a clean kill. Side Note: I'm professional all day long. I call it as I see it here without regards for the toes on which I step. I'm sorry if that makes me bad.
    SSG idsman75, U.S. ARMY[This message has been edited by idsman75 (edited 02-05-2002).]
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  • BullzeyeBullzeye Member Posts: 3,560
    edited November -1
    Thanks again, Sergeant.Robsguns: My skin has gotten rather prickly lately due to recent events. So if you say something that rides the fine line between "just joshing" and "giving the guy a hard time", chances are I might come up on the wrong side.Sorry. I'll work on it.
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  • sandman2234sandman2234 Member Posts: 894 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Never have been one to hunt deer with a bird-gun. Father-n-law (rest His soul) always hunted with a 30/30 lever action,open sights. Just about time one evening as I was getting down out of my stand, I heard a shot coming from his direction.Then another,followed by a total of five shots, equally spaced.I waited.Up he drives in the p/u and I get in. He doesn't say anything, so i asked if he heard the shots.It was him. Seems a rather nice buck had been skirting his stand trying to make a circle around him. Paced it off from the bottom of the tree that he was 15 foot up in. 120 paces to the closest place where he shot the deer.(followed the tracks)There were five holes in that deer, most of them in the stomach area, with the last hitting him in the heart area.Fading light, open sights,round nose bullets,60 year old eyes, I was impressed, to say the least.Rack didn't measure up to the one he had over the fireplace, but we did skin and cure the hide and kept it as a rug for the fireplace hearth. All five holes are still in it.
    Have Gun, will travel
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  • thebutcherthebutcher Member Posts: 374 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    It is not recommended to shoot a sabot through the remington 870 express deer gun which has a non-rifled short barrel. It has a fixed improved cylinder choke. I'm not sure if that is due to the smooth bore or the short barrel...
    The definition of an "expert":An "X" is an unknown quantity and a "spurt" is a drip under pressure.
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  • 218Beekeep218Beekeep Member Posts: 3,033
    edited November -1
    I know what kind of slug to shoot out of what kind of bore....but here`s a twist....I have come into a rifle sighted,smooth bore 870 slug barrel,that takes choke tubes ..So I was contemplating on whether to use a cylinder bore choke tube,with rifled slugs...os maybe screw in a rifled ckoke tube,and try sabots..218P.S.As to 30/30 VS 12 Guage,Salzo,you know the answer is DEERSLAYER!
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  • CAndres35CAndres35 Member Posts: 453 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    well guys i read all the posts and guess i will have to put my 2cents worth in. i have taken 57 deer with a 12ga mdle 12 with a full choke and it still has a full choke . i will grant that this is a 12ga mag designed for 3inch shells but i have known several other people who use full choke gun without any apparent damage. this ofcourse is what i would use for deer up to 75yrds. i have shot them out to 110yrds but only when i had time to take careful aim from a rested shooting stance. i am not knocking the 30/30 as it has taken a lot of deer but i have become partial to that 12ga, carl
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  • anderskandersk Member Posts: 3,627 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    If the law allows you to use a rifle, I'd go with the 30-30 (Winchester Model 94 of course!) ... more reach and more knockdown power.Bonne chasse!
    Ken
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  • He DogHe Dog Member Posts: 51,593 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I would use the .30-30 as well, but mainly because it gives you a bit more deer hunting use outside the heavy cover. If, however, you also hunt birds then the shotgun is the way to go.I was going to try to insult someone, but couldn't think of anything to say. Sorry.
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  • RembrandtRembrandt Member Posts: 4,486 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Lord Beekeeper....now don't get your beeeees in a swarm....I should have known better than to try to slip one by while you were out of town....out of guilt I would like to invite you to Iowa for a social get together at the Rembrandt's Country Estate....I'll even provide the ammo...
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  • Tailgunner1954Tailgunner1954 Member Posts: 7,734 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Sorry, but I have to jump in on this. Sabots are designed to be spun by the rifled barrel. They will do no harm in a smooth tube, but there accurcy potential won't be as high.On another point made (one style of choke)as the lady at Browning said about my ported GTI "we will warrenty it when used with any FACTORY ammo of the correct chamber length, UNLESS there is a warning on the gun"Bob[This message has been edited by Tailgunner1954 (edited 02-05-2002).]
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  • whiteclouderwhiteclouder Member Posts: 10,574 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Take what bullzeye said about a telescoping barrel with a dose of salt. I'm going to presume he means tapering, the gist is the same. A constriction on a choked shotgun is apparent only near the muzzle, as far as I know. A wad of shot, collared, cupped or just free like they used to be loaded, will compress as it enters and traverses a choke. That's the reason for the choke. A slug will do the same thing. You will not shoot the end of your barrel off. You stand to damage a shotgun more shooting steel shot.I'm not picking on ya bullzeye. I think you are mistaken and I need to let others know I think your information is wrong. I would be very interested in knowing more about this continually tapered barrel.Clouder..
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