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Did I Make You Violate A Federal Firearm Law?
tr fox
Member Posts: 13,856
This is all hypothetical of course, because I am not the type to knowing violate the law nor to try and get a brother/sister gun owner in trouble. But what "if"?
Say I decided I had a grudge against you and I knew where you lived. Say I got my hands on one of those scary, deadly, gun magazines marked law enforcement/military only magazines that hold more than the magic number of 10 rounds. And say I packaged it up with your name and address and dropped it in the mail box (no fingerprints of course). And say I phoned the ATFE and told them you had ordered the mag from me and that I had just dropped it in the mail box at the corner of 2nd & Main. (anonymously of course). And say the ATFE was having a slow day and decided to have the Post Office help the ATFE track that package with the magazine. And when the postman delivers it to your door and you or your wife, child, etc. takes it inside shortly thereafter the ATFE raids your house and finds the mag. It is easy to prove that you DID order something, (copy of check, etc) but how do you prove you DIDN'T order something? And so then what happens? Opinions if you please.
When guns were invented everything changed. For the first time in the history of the world a frail woman had a chance to sucessfully defend herself and home. My dream is that one of the anti-gun nuts will need a gun for defense and be unable to have one because of their own actions.
Say I decided I had a grudge against you and I knew where you lived. Say I got my hands on one of those scary, deadly, gun magazines marked law enforcement/military only magazines that hold more than the magic number of 10 rounds. And say I packaged it up with your name and address and dropped it in the mail box (no fingerprints of course). And say I phoned the ATFE and told them you had ordered the mag from me and that I had just dropped it in the mail box at the corner of 2nd & Main. (anonymously of course). And say the ATFE was having a slow day and decided to have the Post Office help the ATFE track that package with the magazine. And when the postman delivers it to your door and you or your wife, child, etc. takes it inside shortly thereafter the ATFE raids your house and finds the mag. It is easy to prove that you DID order something, (copy of check, etc) but how do you prove you DIDN'T order something? And so then what happens? Opinions if you please.
When guns were invented everything changed. For the first time in the history of the world a frail woman had a chance to sucessfully defend herself and home. My dream is that one of the anti-gun nuts will need a gun for defense and be unable to have one because of their own actions.
Comments
I could give a rat's butt what the law states about it, I use mags. that hold more than 10 rounds when I target shoot with my M1A, whos going to even care? No one, not enough to do anything about it anyway.
SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC
If that was the way it was, then you could buy them at gun shows.
I can buy hi-cap mags at the gun shows here in FL, but not the ones marked LEO only.
The gun shows here have both, especially for Glocks, but you can buy the same mag not marked from the guy at the next table.
NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
When guns were invented everything changed. For the first time in the history of the world a frail woman had a chance to sucessfully defend herself and home. My dream is that one of the anti-gun nuts will need a gun for defense and be unable to have one because of their own actions.
I had to tell ya this a friend of mine bought me a 30 or 40 round clip for my M1a years ago as a joke, never used it, but I filled it up and stuck that baby in there talk about looking funny and weighing a ton! [:D]
"I know Everything because
my Wife is a Hair Stylist"
Mark T. Christian
Yeah I bet that would tend to weigh the gun down real nice wouldnt it? Nothing like having a box and a half or more of 308 rounds hanging from the gun though.[;)]
SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC
If you want to get someone else in trouble with the authorities there are virtually infinite ways to do it.
An example would be to put a glass coke bottle full of gas with salt in it and a rag in the top behind something in their garage and call the BATFE.. I saw a "Molotov Cocktail" in his garage!!
Mark T. Christian
Mark T. Christian
Plus I can't believe your naivete about the person setting up the victim. Do you think just for one minute the phone call to the ATFE could be made from A PAY PHONE and then quickly leave? No trace there Mr. Mark. If you care to remember the Unibomber and the person mailing Anthrax did quite well doing their dirty deeds and remaining anonymous. And in regards to the ATFE knowing someone was being set up, are you totally and completely postive each and every ATFE agent and office cares about that? Do you think there just might, just might be one or two agents out there that are ANXIOUS to bust any of us nasty gun owners they can? And in regards to your apparent overly enthusiastic agreement that the demonic post ban law enforcement/military magizines should only be in the hands of those allowed to have them, I will have a separate post for that subject. But once again Mark, if you don't like what I post then DON'T CLICK ON TR FOX!
When guns were invented everything changed. For the first time in the history of the world a frail woman had a chance to sucessfully defend herself and home. My dream is that one of the anti-gun nuts will need a gun for defense and be unable to have one because of their own actions.
"A wise man is a man that realizes just how little he knows"
BIG DOG
To Ride, shoot straight,and speak the truth
This was the Ancient law of Youth
Old times are past, old times are done:
But the Law runs true, O little son!
What If games are pointless. If you'd like I'll spend all next week posting up 20 or 30 what if's a day to show just how pointless they are..
Mark T. Christian
Pa B**ger: you can only buy the preban 10+ round mags and when they are all sold out you will not be able to buy them. If you accidently get your hands on a mag marked "LEO/military only" get rid of it or risk prison time. And the way things are looking I am afraid that the anti-gun people are much, much more aware of the sitation than we pro-gun people are and are probably going to not only make the ban permanent but more strict. In regards to us pro-gun people, no offense intended, but even someone very close to you even recently posted the statement "why do we need assualt weapons anyway?" And of course the answer to that is once you accept that position then the questions become why do you need semiautomatics anyway, or why do you need a gun that holds more than 4 rounds anyway, or why do you need a gun anyway? Or why do you need pepper spray anway? You get the point.
When guns were invented everything changed. For the first time in the history of the world a frail woman had a chance to sucessfully defend herself and home. My dream is that one of the anti-gun nuts will need a gun for defense and be unable to have one because of their own actions.
When guns were invented everything changed. For the first time in the history of the world a frail woman had a chance to sucessfully defend herself and home. My dream is that one of the anti-gun nuts will need a gun for defense and be unable to have one because of their own actions.
A judge would look at how this scenario originated:
An anonymous telephone call.
As MC noted, this call involves one
person commiting a crime attempting to implicate
another.
The credibility at this point is very tenuous.
The illegal item is then "traced" to its point of
origin.
If there is no return address, the already strained
credibility becomes even more so.
If a return address is provided, investigators
will inquire about order taking procedures, records,
purchase orders, invoices, payment methodology, bank
deposits...basic business practices.
It is at this point where the "purchase" will
be confirmed or exposed as a "set up."
Who placed the order?
How did they find out about the item?
How was order made...phone? (subpoena phone records)
mail? (copy of PO)
How was it paid for?
Indeed, it could have been a pay phone order with
a cash payment.
Now we're back to the credibility issue.
Coupled with the initial anonymous tip, like MC suggested
it would probably be a matter of "Have a nice day, sir."
When guns were invented everything changed. For the first time in the history of the world a frail woman had a chance to sucessfully defend herself and home. My dream is that one of the anti-gun nuts will need a gun for defense and be unable to have one because of their own actions.
Buddy you sure go around Robinson's barn to get where you want to go. Try this one.
Follow the target around until you get a good opportunity to strike, like when they go into a bar. Now plant the contraband in the vehicle, such as hi-cap LE only mag, auto sear, etc. Put it under the car seat. Hell, put a baggy of dope there too. Wait for them to leave. Now call the cops, from the first pay phone at hand, and tell them you just saw the target brandish the weapon in the parking lot, and the person is now driving, apparently drunk. Describe the vehicle.
redcedars
When guns were invented everything changed. For the first time in the history of the world a frail woman had a chance to sucessfully defend herself and home. My dream is that one of the anti-gun nuts will need a gun for defense and be unable to have one because of their own actions.
quote:it would probably be a matter of "Have a nice day, sir."
No.
A conviction using your scenario is possible.
Where I live, wrongful convictions for Capitol offenses
occur with alarming regularity.
http://www.soci.niu.edu/~critcrim/wrong/ford4-suit.html
(for your consideration)
A friend (David Protess) and a group of graduate students
were involved with the above.
Today, the police and DA's who witheld critical information
from the defense were absolved of any wrong doing.
Perhaps Mr. Dooley had the right attitude:
"Trust everybody. But cut the cards."
Not unless they confiscate my bench grinder first.[:o)]
Reserving my Right to Arm Bears!!!!
People
Eating
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Animals
Handgun Control, Inc. says they want to "Keep guns out of the wrong hands."
Guess what?
You have the wrong hands.
I'll go further. No "nooses", no more unconstitutional gun laws. What part of "shall not be infringed" is hard to understand.
"Or do you like such laws and think perhaps we need more such laws..."
Nope. Didn't say that, didn't even imply that. Just thought your example was unecessarily convoluted. Fact is, if you want to set someone up, there are plenty of ways to frame it. You are right that dumba** gun laws provide a good way for folks so inclined.
redcedars
When guns were invented everything changed. For the first time in the history of the world a frail woman had a chance to sucessfully defend herself and home. My dream is that one of the anti-gun nuts will need a gun for defense and be unable to have one because of their own actions.
[;)][;)]barto
Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names.-JFK
If I were to print out this thread, I would have to admit it would be a waste of ink.
This is just hypothetical of course, but what "IF"?
Someone decided to print out this thread and drop it in the mail to the ATF--there is the possiblility that "tr fox" is actually in possesion of a "law enforment only" magazine and is actually planning on trying to "frame" someone with it.
Do you think the ATF would start hunting down the members here and raiding our homes in a search for "tr fox" and his possible illegal magazine??
[;)][}:)][:D]
You could own any gun you wanted. WHOO-HOO
They decided it was to much and passed laws. THAT-SUCKS
A few years later they decided it was still too much. More laws. SUCKS
A few more years they decided STILL too much. More laws Really sucks.
Ok folks do we see a pattern yet??? A two year old could see where this is going. So, what to do. I know, lets make fun of folks who are concerned about it. Yeah, that sounds like fun, lets do that. Lets create gray areas to make ourselves feel better. Lets sit on our high horse and laugh at the little ones. Lets put all our trust in those who are passing all these laws (From the top, all the way down to the local level) to guard our freedom! There can not be a gray area because, once you have gray, they saddle up and ride all over your GOD GIVEN rights. I am so sick of people giving up a little of their rights. It is not a give and take thing folks. It is a take, take, take thing!! Name one area where we have more freedom then we use to! Just one!! Well if there was any doubt before about where I stand, I guess it is gone now! Yes, we must follow the laws, but we also must try to change those that are just dumb as hell!! Sorry, but all the gray area talk just really ticks me off!
(shl)
aux.v. past tense should
(shd)
1. Used before a verb in the infinitive to show:
Something that will take place or exist in the future: We shall arrive tomorrow.
Something, such as an order, promise, requirement, or obligation: You shall leave now. He shall answer for his misdeeds. The penalty shall not exceed two years in prison.
The will to do something or have something take place: I shall go out if I feel like it.
Something that is inevitable: That day shall come.
2. Archaic
To be able to.
To have to; must.
not
(nt)
adv.
1. In no way; to no degree. Used to express negation, denial, refusal, or prohibition: I will not go. You may not have any.
be
(b)
v. First and third person singular past indicative was
(wz, wz; wz when unstressed), second person singular and plural and first and third person plural past indicative were
(w?r), past subjunctive were, past participle been
(bn), present participle be?ing
(bng), first person singular present indicative am
(m), second person singular and plural and first and third person plural present indicative are
(?r), third person singular present indicative is
(z), present subjunctive be
v. intr.
1. To exist in actuality; have life or reality: I think, therefore I am.
in?fringe
(n-frnj)
v. in?fringed, in?fring?ing, in?fring?es
v. tr.
1. To transgress or exceed the limits of; violate: infringe a contract; infringe a patent.
2. Obsolete To defeat; invalidate.
Seems very cut and dried to me, black and white if you will. No gray areas there!! Cool huh!
The fact is, BATFE has the fewest agents of any federal law enforcement agency, and they are totally committed to Homeland Security. They do not become involved in petty BS and minor statutory infractions; they just don't have the time. Preventing terrorists from doing more damage on US soil is the primary goal of this agency.
If you are going to be arrested for a firearms related offense, most likely it will be by local police officers. If they consult with BATFE, they will most likely be told to handle the case under local law.
Neal
Matt45: simply by using acid etching you can usually restore a ground off gun serial number or the ground off words "LEO/Military use only". Sure, what federal agent is going to go to the trouble to do it? But do you want to gamble 5 years of your life that the one holding your ground off mag just might have the time and motive to do just that? Not worth it to me, but then again I am not a gambling man.
Didja miss the clown?????
[:o)]
You missed the clown, didn't you?
[:o)][:o)]
Yep, you missed the clown.[V]
Reserving my Right to Arm Bears!!!!
People
Eating
Tasty
Animals
Handgun Control, Inc. says they want to "Keep guns out of the wrong hands."
Guess what?
You have the wrong hands.
But we are all 'Domestic Terrorists'.....We believe every American has the right to bear arms, what the Govt. fears.
"He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one."
- Jesus Christ in Luke 22:36
When guns were invented everything changed. For the first time in the history of the world a frail woman had a chance to sucessfully defend herself and home. My dream is that one of the anti-gun nuts will need a gun for defense and be unable to have one because of their own actions.
Michael
Paranoid keeps you alive, worry just gives you stomach problems.
sound
When guns were invented everything changed. For the first time in the history of the world a frail woman had a chance to sucessfully defend herself and home. My dream is that one of the anti-gun nuts will need a gun for defense and be unable to have one because of their own actions.
Year ago dealers would order folding stocks direct from Remington for "police sales" and then swap them over on their own 870's and sell them to the public...at a healthy profit I might add! Police agencies themselves proved to be the major source of these folding stocks. When large numbers of agencies replaced their older 870's with new autoloaders like the Benelli's, very few (read this as NONE) agencies would go to the trouble and expence of removing the factory folding stocks and replacing them with fixed stocks before trading their shotguns into to dealers for credit on new firearms purchases. The major part of my business is LE sales so I've handled plenty (too many!) of 870's and lots of them had factory folders. These folders were actually rather uncomfortable to use and proved highly unpopular with patrol officers who loved the racey looks and compact size of their 870's, but soon tired of the pounding they took when the guns were fired!. These stocks are unrestricted and may be purchased and installed on a Remington 870 by anyone not otherwise prohibited from owning a firearm. Next question?
Mark T. Christian
So now we definately have one case where a gun accesssory, the folding stock Mark explained about, is marked so as to indicate a civilian had better not use it. But in reality that warning is a lie.
Then with post-ban 10+ mags with a similar warning, that warning is a true statement.
The we also have folding stocks with NO WARNING on it, but the civilians better not use that stock on certain guns.
Folks, is it just me or have truly unfair and dangerous policys and laws, that do little or nothing to actually protect the public, been put in place? So unfair, it seems to me, that a rational and fair society would soon reverse the situation. And each and every gun owner (and dealer)would voice resentment at every oppurtunity.
When guns were invented everything changed. For the first time in the history of the world a frail woman had a chance to sucessfully defend herself and home. My dream is that one of the anti-gun nuts will need a gun for defense and be unable to have one because of their own actions.