30-06 vs the .223

Big Sky Redneck · April 2002

I took these pics off of a video I made today. Now, the pics don't show the true effect but they show what I was trying to accomplish. This first pic is a milk jug full of water shot at 103 yds with a 30-06 using 125 grain Ballistic tip, kinda impressive This pic is another milk jug at the same distance shot with the .223 using 55 grain Ballistic tips, even more impressive If you wish to see the video you will need to install Kazaa media desktop which can be downloaded for free and installed. It is a sharing program that will allow you to download the entire video off of my hardrive. I need to edit the video for size and will have it posted on Kazaa shortly, I will post when the video is ready. BTW you need ot download the video, it says it all and is pretty funny, I had fun making it and I hope y'all download it and watch it. And Bullzeye, you will be famous since your name is mentioned in it and all who view it will know you!

groundhog devastation · April 2002

7mmnut, EXCELLENT!!!! GHD

Big Sky Redneck · April 2002

LOL GHD! Need I say more?! I'm trying to learn how to use this new video editor I have by Adaptec, it wasnt made for dummies like me, I'll let y'all know when I get it doen but it will be up this evening.

Bullzeye · April 2002

The clips are good, but you seem to be trying to say a .30-06 ballistic tip is somehow inferior to a .223You've lost it, man.That's so ridiculous I dont even know what to say.....If you're that attached to the round then by all means, buy it by the truckful!

Konet · April 2002

&mm nut Im with you MAn .223 RULES!!!!

groundhog devastation · April 2002

Bullzeye, Where are you going with this? You are not going to change the gov't's use of this round with your ranting and raving about the superiority of the 06 or 308!!! You can't even change the guys on this sight to your point of veiw!! If the 223 is not good enough then maybe you'd like to shoot my 222MAG. It is superior to the 223 by about 50 fps. Maybe that would be what it takes to trip your trigger. But alas, it wasn't chosen because the longer neck wouldn't function in the automatic rifles as well as the 223. Maybe if DuPont hadn't been tied so heavily to the gov't we'd have had a different propellant during Vietnam but we can't change that now!!! Anyway let's let this discussion drop, please!!! God help us (Scott would drop out now after seeing God mentioned) if you ever start a thread on the merits of 6mmRem vs. 243 Win!!!! GHD

Big Sky Redneck · April 2002

No Bullzeye, that was not the intention. I did not want to say the .223 was better than the '06. I was impressed big time, I thought the results would be comparable to the same. But when the .223 exploded the jug like it did I bout crapped myself. I was trying to show that the .223 was not wimpy and was capable of inflicting damage but did not expect it to show the '06 up like that! The '06 is still a superior cartridge, I don't argue that at all, it will do things the .223 will never do but I thought the .223 did a good job. When I get the video done you download it and watch, I am willing to bet you will lke it. Hell I even missed the jug the first shot with the .223 and I will not edit that out, its kinda funny, you should enjoy it. But right now the video is 128 megs in mpeg-1 format, I need to get some of the fumbling out of it and my boring narrations cleared out, I may even add some good tunes to it! Be patient with me on this one, I'm new to video editting in this fashion and I want to use y'all as judges for my work. I'm real good at audio but I'm learning video.

robsguns · April 2002

No, Bullzeye, thats not what he is saying, you did. The picture of the jugs blowing up is just one way that some people like to show the effect of rounds on a target of similar consistency. It is sort of like takeing a gun out and shooting a tree in half with 2 rounds, I think you could probably video that for us next time, if you have the equipment, cause I'd really like to see that done. I have a 458 Win Mag, and it wont even do that. I guess I'll have to start shooting my 7.62x54 more often when I go to Africa hunting.Now to be serious. The energy transfer of a bullet on a jug of water can be different from one caliber to another, and the effect it has on the jug is not always the same, even with the same exact bullet and gun, due to various variables, like the jugs material, the placement of the shot, etc. It does however look really cool, and I liked the pics. I did not slam you for your previous posts of the tree, until now, you earned it, for slamming 7mm. Dont get use to it, I'm not a complete butt head, I just have my moods.Darn spelling!

SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC[This message has been edited by robsguns (edited 04-06-2002).]

idsman75 · April 2002

I think that the only thing that could revive this debate between .223 and .308 would be a smart-aleck comment from scott. It's a dead horse but let's keep on kicking it in hopes that we can turn it into a God-slamming session.P.S. Cool pics 7mm.

scott5792 · April 2002

Not busting any chops at all here.It looks to me that when the 30-06 hit. It passed through and the gallon jug stayed close to where it was placed.The 223 however. threw the jug accross the pic to the left..Is it because that 30 cal impact was that much harder and more devisstating?from the(I'm guessing here) weight and speeds ?Wouldn't it not move as far away after it was hit?seems a 223 would never get through concrete . but that 30-06 would tear it down around you.Scott

robsguns · April 2002

God Bless You, God Help Me, God Be With You, God Bless The Children and my personal favorite, God #@$% **. Boy, I bet my favorite is used more than any of the rest, I couldnt help it. But none of that was God Bashing, what did I do wrong? I guess its just not in me. Hey, how about this one, 'God, if you will just make these dry heaves go away, I swear, I'll never drink another beer, or anything, not for the rest of my life', yeah right! He falls for that one everytime. THANK GOD!!OH yeah, ya know why I know God is a man and not a woman? Cause I think he has a sense of humor, well then again, maybe he is a she, there was that flood thing, and destroying those two cities of evil does kind of sound like my wife.

SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC[This message has been edited by robsguns (edited 04-06-2002).]

scott5792 · April 2002

see how wrong you were idsmen? you make me laugh.Scott

scott5792 · April 2002

robs. your god is no longer an issue. we covered it. I backed off. Want to play some more?I'll light it up in here.with some facts you fail to see.Miracles if you will.I posted a question about these 2 rounds. Not a thing more.Now back off. I did what I was asked! Scott

idsman75 · April 2002

Scott--I was hoping I'd be able to get a response out of you. Honestly though, it's all in good fun. My comments were directed at the laughable direction that so many of these threads have taken lately.The direction that GB has taken in the last few months has caused me to take it far less seriously than I did before. There are lots of good people here but I'm already reminiscing about the good old days. Where's "Gone Postal" when you need him?

scott5792 · April 2002

Like I said. i was asked to stop. I did. I can't believe they are still squabbling over me in here.Scott

sodbuster · April 2002

Hey, Idsman,,sshhhh,,, (typing real quietly),,please don't say the "S" word,,he might still be out there!!,,,,I don't know about anybody else but I have really enjoyed this evening reading the different posts where real gun guys are going round and round about GUN STUFF,,,, kinda like hangin' out at the gun shop with the boys,,'cept my coffee is better,,Too late,,,,,Oh well I got ammo to reload,,[This message has been edited by sodbuster (edited 04-06-2002).]

oldfriends · April 2002

Not sure this is relevent to this discussion but when I was a "wee little soldier" (Like Radar O'Reilly would often say) I was a medic. While working in the emergency room I was able to see some strange stuff that soldiers do to themselves. (Damn, I really wnat to get off the subject here and relate some stories but I will not.) While working the emergency room one day, a soldier was brought in. He had what appeared to be two wounds. One in the arch of the fot and one in the hip. As it turns out, while he was in basic training and on the M16 range, he decided he would shoot himself in the foot. He did. The bullet did an abrupt about face and upon hitting the hard stand exited the soldier's hip. Once the docs were finished with him, he looked like he had a zipper on the outside of his leg from his ankle to his hip. Never had the opportunity to see a like wound with an '06. Just saying here that the velosity of the .223 attributed to the very unusual wound.

Life is Tough!It's Tougher if You're Stupid

robsguns · April 2002

Hey scotty, I wasnt even talking to you, I was addressing Idsman75, so go back in your hole. You sure turn up a lot for someone who keeps saying hes through here. I dont think I'd ever make it to work if I kept telling my wife I was leaving for work and got the same results you do. You know, I havent had any actual contact with you, and havent made any personal attacks against you, except to ask for Admin. to prevent your posts here. Now that you have been rude to me however, lets play, until I tire of you and go bury you in the yard like a dog will a bone. Isnt it funny how your dog will usually forget where that bone is? Also, did you know that 50% of a squirrels stored nuts are lost due to the squirrel forgetting where it burried them? Interesting huh? Oh, and dont worry about telling me to do anything homosexual for you, I think I've already seen that comment, try harder, no pun intended. No, dont get upset, just sit back, roll one of your homegrown buds, and think about what you say first, maybe you'll come up with something witty and amuzing for us all, is it possible? And just think about this, I actually agreed with some of your ideas, but alas, I guess it wasnt meant to be.....

SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC

Big Sky Redneck · April 2002

Sodbuster, it is fun!! Ok for those who are interested I learned something about Adobe Premier and after watching the video I realize there is a couple of flaws. 1st problem is and this was pointed out by Rob, we don't know if I hit the jugs in the same identical area, I can fix that tomorrow. Also after watching it it will be easy to accuse me of camera tricks, like shooting a different gun than what I say I am because you cannot see me shooting, I'm out of the camera view with it zoomed in tho the targets. Also it was not fair to Bullzeye and others because I used hopped up groundhog busters in the .223. I just got off the phone with my pops and he will let me use his camera tomorrow. This is what I learned in the program I'm using. What I will do is setup his camera off to the side of the jugs to get a good image of the hit, I will set mine up to see both me and the jugs at lower zoom. I can superimpose those two videos together and have a dual frame at the same time so you will see me shooting and a closeup of the jugs together in real time. I will also use a couple different types of ammo. I have some FMJ's for both calibers, I will use them and the ballistic tips again. I will also place target dots on the jugs so as to have an aiming point and it will only count if I hit the dot,(no problem!) This will be a fair and unbiased test( and I want to do this for the fun of it. Since I have the time to do this I really want to do it. Also if you have suggestions for other targets let me know. And no I'm not going out to shoot a deer right now eother so don't ask, maybe in july we can pop a few corn theives and video that for ya. Also, I can make video cd's and mail them to ya, this will be entertaining and fun for me, so play along and let me have some fun! Let me know before late tomorrow because I am anxious to redo this. Hey, I'm on unemployment right now and I need a good excuse to play!

scott5792 · April 2002

ROBS. I was finished with that argument. I said it and didn't send another to those posts. You refer to someone that can see it. I'll reply if it's my name.I asked a simple question of ballistics. and that was all.I asked.Why did the 30-06 jug not seem to move out of the pic as far. It seems to stay pretty close to the spot.The 223 flew accross the whole frame.What caused the push of the 223? to make that jug fly so far away. yet the 30-06 didn't?Any ideas?Scott

scott5792 · April 2002

BTW. thanks idsmen for accepting the apologies. Ladr was just as cool about it.Scott

groundhog devastation · April 2002

7mmnut, I really enjoyed the pics and will just add a little GHD wisdom here. The Ballistic Tips are not more explosive the smaller they are! It was a fair test. I switched from 120BT in the 7BR to 120V-Max. I got too many pass thrus with the Bt's. If I can't pick him up then I can't count him as a kill!! The V-Max's didn't leave much question!! In the 222Mag I saw a significant difference in insant death vs. get in the hole and can't be counted when comparing BT to V-Max. Again the V-max seem to expend a lot of energy on impact!! So I think since you used BT in both guns that it was a fair show. Bet I'll get some replies on this one!! But then again, this is from someone who has experience with all ingredients and not just reading from books or magazines and has the ability to get on-line. GHD

robsguns · April 2002

scott, You surprised me, I'll stop digging the hole for now, just leave it there. My 'supposed' determination of the jugs would be a simple one, for a simple man, that man being me, not anyone else, easy. The .223 bullet fragmented on impact, or mushroomed swiftly, causing the violent eruption of water and energy transfer. The 30-06 did not fragment, almost guaranteed, but began to mushroom, and with the heavier weight and stable bullet, it continued to just plow on through, without causing as much energy transfer and upset of the water and jug. Thats just me though, I could be wrong.

SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC

scott5792 · April 2002

That's what I missed. the 223 breaking up more . thanks for the reply.Makes sence to me. Scott

scott5792 · April 2002

Ends in the same result doesn't it?DEAD Scott

Konet · April 2002

30-06 gos faster and dosnt slow down if you hit somthing with a spin really fast gos right throw. but if you hit it really slow it drags it till it gos throw.

Big Sky Redneck · April 2002

Actualy Konet, the loads I used, the .223 chrono'ed faster than the '06 did. I do believe Rob has it right, the .223 detonated and the '06 stayed together. That is the point I've been trying to prove, when the .223 hits, there is a violent expansion and fragmentation that causes buku damage when they hit something solid. When shooting a deer, I go for shoulder shots if I can't make a head shot, so when it hit's the shoulder blade it has something to make it work. The water jugs at the speed of the bullets is like hitting a wall. Compare it to doing a belly flop off of a diving board, when you hit, the water aint so soft is it? GHD, I cant get the V-Maxes to shoot out of my .223 for some reason, I tried 4 diff powders and several charge weights and the best I could get from them was a 2" group at 100, now shooting at a ground hog 3-400 yds away, what does that mean for the goundhogs future? He may live a little longer! The 55 grain Bal tip for me shoots GREAT, at 100 yds under near perfect conditions(no wind) I can make a dime sized hole with 5 shots, and that's using that cheap old single shot! I honestly believe that the .223 fragmented big time where the Bal tip in the '06 retained most of it's weight and stayed together. You see, that is why I love the .223, explosive little thing it is. Now I do have a 22-250, it has been at the gunsmiths getting accurized and trigger work done to it so I can't play with it now, but I would live to see it hit a water jug!! I want to try V-Max's out of it, 40 grain bullet at 4000+ fps, WOW! Hitting a deer in the head or a groundhog with that would be messy!

Konet · April 2002

YOu hunt Deer With .223 they armor pericing?

Big Sky Redneck · April 2002

Under controlled conditions I have popped a couple in the head with FMJ's but I don't have any AP's for the .223. I do have some black tipped rounds for the '06 but I doubt the will fire, they don't look to good.

robsguns · April 2002

Since we are talking about bullets....I also make it no secret that I just about have no use for anything other than Barnes bullets. Why? Because I dont hunt varmints as a rule, there just arent any for me here. For anything I want to eat that isnt hunted with a .22, I use Barnes. This is relavant to the conversation, because as we sit here and talk about bullet performance of the .223, and its ability to kill, no one has mentioned bullet selection, but Konet did bring up the use of FMJ. Well, if I were going to shoot a deer with a .223 I can guarantee you that the deer would be dead, for one really good reason. Bullet selection. I have shot my .222 Remington, very close in ballistics to a .223, with Barnes bullets, and let me tell you, that Barnes bullet out of a .222 Remington can be driven straight into a rock wall, as I have done, and it will not come apart. If you use the proper bullet, you will have no problem killing a deer with your .223, probably wont have a problem killing it with the wrong one either, but... I use Barnes. I wont get into the cast bullet discussion, cause that is a whole different ball of wax, and quite lengthy, if not very interesting.

SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC

Big Sky Redneck · April 2002

One of the reasons I use the Balistic Tip is the fact that they come unglued. I sacrafice some shoulder meat to make sure he drops in his track. I always wondered about the Barnes X, they really work good? Hows the expansion and wounds look after hitting bone? In my 7mm and '06 when I use them for buck season I use Sierra Game Kings and have had excellent results with those. The price of the Barnes has kept me from buying them. I hate dumping the $ for a box of bullets to find they won't work in my guns.

Druupy · April 2002

7MMDo you have enough jugs to put a second jug behind each taget jug?. Does the 06 expand after 8" of penetration?More water to splash just adds to the fun.

smokinggun · April 2002

I have used the Barnes solid copper X bullets in my muzzleloader and also my rifled shotgun. They were awesome, I know thats not exactly the same as the higher velocity bullets but I have heard that those have similar results. The bullet doesn't separate, however it expands rapidly, cuts like razors, and dumps it's energy in the animal where you need it to. [This message has been edited by smokinggun (edited 04-07-2002).]

aglore · April 2002

These pictures are comparing apples to oranges. the 223 55 grain BT is a varmint bullet designed for violent expansion. The 125 grain 308 BT is a hunting bullet designed for a more controlled expansion. All BT bullets of 26 caliber and up are hunting bullets and under 26 caliber are varmint bullets. Now compare a varmint bullet of each caliber to each other and see what the results will be. Also drive the 308 with the lighter weight of a varmint bullet to it full potential, not downloaded as a squib load.

AlleninAlaska

Big Sky Redneck · April 2002

Hey, it's another Bullzeye follower! You want me to do that using a FMJ? No problem. Are you refering to the other gun as a .308 or just the bullet diameter? It was an '06 firing that .308 diameter bullet, want me to go to down to a 110 grain bullet that can't be pushed over 2900 fps? Load it over that it and it will not perform. The load I used was a 125 grain Nosler Balistic Tip loaded with IMR 3031 at 55.5 grains, velocity on that load according to my Pro Chrony is 3250 fps, hardly a squib. The .223 load is a 55 grain Nosler Balistic tip loaded with Imr 3031 at 26.5 grains ( this is a major compressed load, please do not copy this as it is over max recomended charge) with a velocity of 3325 fps, not a squib but a little hot! The comparason was not to belittle the '06, it was to show that the .223 can keep up with the bigger gun with inflicting damage. I wanted to show how much damage the '06 does then show the .223 doing the same. Like I stated before, I was impressed with the performance of the .223, I didnt think it would do what it did. Now, as far as that varmit load, I bet you think it won't do a thing to a deer, probably bounce off it's skin huh? I use that particular load on groundhogs and deer, I have not had a deer get away from that gun, most of the time when they get hit in the shoulder they drop where they stand. I shot one between the eyeball and ear, no joke, it opened that deers head up! When the deer get hit in the shoulder it ruins the shoulder, depending on the angle you can kiss some of the loin bye bye. The hole in the hide is incredible. This is not a bragging session by no means but Clouder and a couple others made comments about me shooting so many deer. Here is the deal. PA game law allows farmers and their employees to shoot deer for crop damage. I work part time on a few farms and one of the benifits of doing this is I get to shoot alot of deer. During the summer months PA also has what is called Red Tag hunting, this is a special season that is not advertised but is well know by some. What it is, is farmers open their land up to public hunting for 2 years, then they can apply for red tag hunting to recieve benifits from the Game Comission for crop damage. The red tag hunting allows anybody with a valid PA hunting license to shoot deer in the summer on these farms. Last year there was in the neighborhood of 50 farms within 100 miles of here, open season. This is an effort to help keep farmers from shooting deer and wasting them, but they have to allow public hunting, some do it some don't. The farms that shoot deer themseves are not allowed to have the dead deer leave the property, therefore I get to see alot of deer tossed in a pit on the farms I work on. What this is for me is a way to play with different guns and loads. I take advantage of the chance to shoot deer like this. Not to brag but I can probably shoot more deer in one summer than most of you will legaly shoot in 20 years. When we go out in the summer either for red tag or shooting deer in the freshly planted fields I use the .223 or a .22lr, redtagging I have to use a legal deer rifle so I use the .223. On the other farms there is no rules as to what guns we can use because it is not hunting, it is mearly shooting ducks in a barrel and game laws do not pertain except the deer have to stay on the property. I have used the Bushmaster from time to time, at night when using a spot light the farm owners prefer we use a .22lr or a .22 mag to keep the noise down, no problem. Like I said, I'm not bragging about shooting a lot of deer, the ones shot for crop damage are wasted, tossed in a pit to rot so it doesnt matter how many you shoot, shoot them all as far as the farmers are concerned. But I will say this, I have killed plenty of deer with a .223 to know full well that it is a capable round, it is underestimated, you laugh just because it's small, if you seen it do what I have you would feel the same way as I do, amazed that someone would say it won't kill a deer. Dude I've seen it work, even with FMJ's, shoulder or head shots work wonders. It takes no special skill to shoot deer like we do, the deer stand and watch you shoot at them, at night they are stupid, their buddy can fall dead right beside them and they will just look, time to shoot another one. And by the way, even with them buggers standing still you would be surprised how much I miss! You may call this cruel, you may damn us for shooting deer like that but dairy farmers have it rough, and when the deer come in and clean up a couple fields it hits the wallet, they can never stop the deer, too dang many of them but you can get some payback and scare them off, you dust enough of them the others start getting the hint, they hear a pickup or see a light they scoot. I'm sorry if this offends any of you but it is necassary. Somebody who has never been around farming will always come up with alternative answers but this is the most effective way. Say what you want, I'm a believer. If you want proof what a .223 can do to a deer I can arrange that. There are times I carry a bigger gun, sure I like that '06 and my 7mm. They both have killed their share of deer, during regular hunting season and off season. This is also a reason why I archery hunt in the fall, to be honest with you I get bored shooting them with a gun and I love the challenge of bow hunting. Anybody can go out and shoot deer while they stand there and look at you, get one with a bow, that puts the H in hunting. Anyhow, I'm done, rant over. And I apologize for the long post, I get rambling on and on like that and lose my train of thought and don't pay attention to how much I typed. Next! [This message has been edited by 7mm nut (edited 04-07-2002).]

gj · April 2002

7mmnut:Try this next time, use your same .223 and 30-06 loads only use 5 gallon plastic jugs.You will see the .223 (seems) to do nothing while the 06 becomes more impressive.Things can be deceptive. gj.

www.moaammo.com moa@reloader.net

aglore · April 2002

7mm, you missed the whole point of what I had said. For the simple minded, I said compare a 308 caliber Varmint bullet to a 224 caliber Varmint bullet at max velocities for both cartridges, I did not say to compare a 308 caliber hunting bullet with a 224 caliber Varmint bullet. Was that simple enough for you to follow. And do you have a problem with me defending Bullzeye? He has more courage to speak his mind than any 10 of your cronies here do. I always had a tendacy to defend the undergdog.

AlleninAlaska

Big Sky Redneck · April 2002

Hat do you think a 125 grain balistic tip is? It is a varmit bullet, and they are both loaded hot, why in the heck do you find that so hard to believe? Two varmit bullets loaded hot, one overmax and the other right at max, both over 3000fps. Tell me this, does it hurt your feelings to see the .223 do that. Like I said I was surprised to see that happen, but you know what, I think the .223 exploded alot harder and with more violence than that heavier larger diam bullet. I would not brag about siding with a snotty punk who is alays looking for ways to appear smarter than everyone else, most of what he writes about is not from his experiance but reading glory books, he brags about owning an obsolete cheap imported military weapon and claims it's far better than American made guns. I sometimes wonder if he shouldnt hop a plane and go to Russia or Isreal so he can use his combat expertize and fight in an army that has weapons more to his liking. GJ, I like using gallon jugs, shooting a 5 gallon bucket would be like shooting a small boulder. I wish I had a couple water mellons, they are fun to blow up.

Miss. Creant · April 2002

Don't mean nuthin.apples and oranges.You are going on an elk hunt and have a choice of a .223 or a .30-06 which do you choose?You are going to kill massive amounts of praire dogs and have a choice of .223 or .30-06 which do you choose.Two different tools for similiar purposes.

Big Sky Redneck · April 2002

If I'm going elk hunting I'm taking the 7mm um, we don't have prarie dogs here, we got tunnel rats, aka groundhogs.

aglore · April 2002

7mm, the 125 grain Ballistic Tip is a hunting bullet. It has a thicker jacket than the Ballistic Tip varmint bullets. All Ballistic Tip Bullets 26 caliber and up are the hunting versions, not varmint version. Go to the Nosler web page and check for yourself if you don't believe. Now find a varmint bullet in 30 caliber and 1 in 224 caliber and compare them to each other on your water jugs. I'm willing to wager you will find a dramatic difference in how much the 308 varmint bullet will do compared to the 224 caliber one. But first you have to compare varmint bullet against varmint bullet. Not a hunting bullet against a varmint bullet.

AlleninAlaska

30-06 vs the .223

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