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If it were just a nit, I'd agree. But here (once again) we have a disingenuous thread title, a poorly written article from a dubious source, and then a raft of replies which do nothing but reinforce the whole "fake news" aspect of the thing.
Pointing out that trifecta of tergiversation is not nit-picking.
Well, to ensure clarity, I put on my reading comprehension glasses before I responded to this thread.
Thinking back on my encounters with the Cougar that frequents our woods here in the Piney Woods of East Texas; I'm now of the opinion that Chain Migration is the reason for the extinct status of the subspecies designated as the Eastern Cougar since I'm sure I detected a distinct Eastern accent when the Cougar snarled at me! I guess, for them, the Mississippi River is the new Rio Grande and they are alive and well West of the Mississippi! [:D]
If you can't feel the music; it's only pink noise!
quote:In fact, the Center for Biological Diversity, seeing a bright spot in the depressing headline, praised the delisting of the eastern cougar as a way for states to introduce western cougars, like the one pictured above, into new habitats.
What sort of nonsensicalness is this? They deserve much opprobrium. Classic broken window fallacy.
Some will die in hot pursuit
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
Rack Ops, yes, I must fall into that category too (i.e. replying with an 'anecdote proving it is all liberal propaganda'). However, I must ask you the same question as Rocky Raab; what is the point of an article talking about "extinction" if not to evoke some emotional reaction from the reader?
"Extinct" is a definitive word regarding the definitive status of a species. Whether it invokes emotion or not is immaterial. It is what it is. The facts are that Eastern Cougar has been on the Endangered Species list for several decades and now scientists have reached the conclusion that there are no more Eastern Cougars left. Again, your particular emotional response is immaterial. It's a simple statement of fact.
quote:
Lastly (not directed at anyone in particular), I must add, this article appears in an "Earth Matters" section of the publication. If the intent of the article is to spotlight the importance of the "eastern" cougar over other cougars, then why are the characteristics unique to the eastern cougar not presented in the article??? That is, unless the article isn't some "liberal propaganda" piece bent on shaming all the non-wildlife biologist types (people) into feeling guilty for yet another wrong against the animal kingdom?
If you can find something in the article that says the Eastern Cougar was somehow "more important" than other sub-species of Cougar, please highlight it. I saw nothing but a couple of plain statements: 1) The Eastern Cougar used to be present in all states east of the Mississippi and 2) Now, the subspecies is extinct.
I saw nothing stated that there is some unique characteristic of Eastern Cougar that makes them biologically superior to other Cougar varieties, and nothing in the way of an impending ecological apocalypse due to their loss. Personally, I'll go on record as being a little saddened at the loss of a little bit of the Animal Kingdom (or God's creation, for those believers out there) that we'll never get back....but that is strictly my own opinion, and not one that the author goes out of the way to make.
quote:
So yeah, my 'knee jerk' response was intended to point out the article is BS 'liberal propaganda'. And, until someone can point out the reasons why I should know the difference between the two breeds, and why I should feel bad about it, then...I stand by my response.
Facts are stubborn things, and your choice to dismiss them as "liberal propaganda" is, of course, your right....but it doesn't make them incorrect in anyone's mind other than your own. Neither the original author nor anyone in this thread has said there are important differences you should know, nor even that you need to need to feel bad about it. Only that they did exist...and now they don't.
quote:Originally posted by Flying Clay Disk]
"IF" YOU...can find anything in the subject article which supports your somewhat numbing point...then please DO!!
Until then, I remain...fast.
The point of the article was twofold:
1) There used to be a sub-species of Cougar in the Eastern US.
2) That sub species no longer exists.
I'm not sure what it is about the two points you believe is incorrect, as you've offered no evidence, anecdotally or otherwise...just rather bland statements that you consider them to be "propaganda".
quote:Originally posted by Flying Clay Disk
quote:Originally posted by Rocky Raab
If it were just a nit, I'd agree. But here (once again) we have a disingenuous thread title, a poorly written article from a dubious source, and then a raft of replies which do nothing but reinforce the whole "fake news" aspect of the thing.
Pointing out that trifecta of tergiversation is not nit-picking.
Then perhaps your admonishment of that "tergiversation" should have been directed at the OP for the thread title, and not the broader membership base based on the content of the article (which I DID read, hence my response). So yeah...nit picking.
By the way, I've been on this planet for about 54 years, and consider myself to have a fairly good vocabulary. In those 54 years I have never seen the use of the word "tergiversation" used in spoken or written English. (Frankly, I had to look it up). This begs the question of why someone would choose such a word if for no other reason than to demonstrate their apparent superior intellect over others. Others, like say a someone who wrote a little more thought out response than "Uhhh Yeah, what he said".
quote:Originally posted by Flying Clay Disk
edit...case in point, name one sentence in the article which says the words "sub-species".
Stick with cilantro...you're better at it.
Game, set and match.
G'night.
How about the FIRST SENTENCE
"The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service has declared the eastern cougar subspecies (known as both Felis concolor couguar and Puma concolor couguar) officially extinct and removed it from the Federal List of Threatened and Endangered Wildlife. Cougars are also known as mountain lions, pumas and panthers."
quote:Originally posted by Flying Clay Disk
edit...even though you are of similar tenure, I'm not sure you ever saw the battles between me and the legendary DWS. A truly intelligent man who had/used words as a weapon, wicked and cutting...make a man step back from any fight. Few would blaze on. DWS and I did business many times, and he was one of the most kind, understanding people who have ever tread here on GB. Despite all my education, he could disarm most (myself included...sometimes), catch you off balance and turn his boot on the side of your face like an expended cigarette (in the dirt of life).I would consider myself 180 degrees opposite of DWS... there was one time some dude pissed us both off and he was getting hammered from both directions... he was like
quote:but unless one is a wildlife biologist (which I am not) a cougar is a cougar.
You just proved your own point. Clearly all cougars, unlike us, were not created equal. The Florida panther is not the same as all other cougars.
Some taxonomists considered the Eastern cougar a distinct subspecies. If that subspecies was allopatric, i.e. genetically isolated from other cougars, then I would consider it a separate species. If it were sympatric with other cougars, then there would have to be other genetic isolating mechanisms to consider it different. In the case of cougars, it appears geography is the only genetic isolating mechanism. If the Eastern cougar was previously isolated, it is no longer and has not been for a time, so either it is extinct or will very soon be genetically swamped by the pandemic cougar. Either way it is gone.
quote:Originally posted by 375H&H
This has been a topic for debate here in eastern Pa. for as long as I can remember [:0] Some folks say that mt. lions are here , some (mostly WCO's) say not . Personally , I have never seen one , but believe they could be around here & there . There are some really remote/Isolated areas up in the northern counties of Pa. Like Potter , Tioga , Bradford and such .
I lived most of my adult life in PA, spent more time in the woods than any notmal man should have. I lived and breathed hunting and in my younger years quit jobs so I could go hunting. From shooting groundhogs, runnin * dogs year round, archery deer hunting, gun huning, small game, you name it, I spent as much time out as I could.
Now every once in awhile someone would spin a tale about a black panther that lived in the woods behind Shirleysburg or some other place in the Huntingdon/Mifflin county areas. The old timers would tell these stories that reminded me of tales of Bigfoot and everyone of them would claim to have a persoanl experiance with it. I?ll admit, as a young man the old timers were to be respected and no doubts given to their stories, but it sounds far fetched. I looked all over the hills and mountains for any sign of a big cat and have never once seen anything except for bobcats.
As time went on the tales of the black oanther were replaced with tales of mountain lions/cougars that the PAGC secretly planted in the state. One old state trooper once claimed he stopped a tractor trailer on I-80 that was hauling a secret government load of these cats to be released into the eastern states. Any of these tales all had one thing in common, they all ended with the same story of the PAGC covering up sightings, taking cameras, removing dead cats and even jailing those who killed one amd forcing them to be silent.
Me, I?m a skeptical man, very skeptical, I have heard so many tall tales over the years that honestly I have lost a lot of trust in stories that have no proof. Most of these stores also come from the same people who claim to have been witness to UFOs, the low IQ hillbilly living in a trailer park who was abducted by aliens or even the bib overall wearing redneck who is always the first on camera after a tornado. Honestly, I laugh when these tales start up, from tall trucker tales to government conspiracies and these PA Mountain Man stories of the big cats secretly places in the woods by a sneaky PAGC.
So ask yourself this, what does the PAGC have to gain by secretly introducing big cats to the woods? Really what do they have to gain? Any state for that matter? If they do it in secret the truth will come out real quick, they can?t train these cats to wreak havic but yet stay hidden. They will breed, they will multiply and sooner or later they will appear. But these tales all claim that the PAGC agressively keeps them a secret, why would they do that and what is to gain? Gary Alt only took a couple years to destroy the deer population in parts of PA and made the PAGC a ton of money while doing it. Gary Alt proved that if you want to lower deer populations you simply prey on the greed of hunters and sell them unlimited doe tags, change the seasons around a bit and the deer will be gone.
To introduce big cats secretly will not have the same effect and will cost tons, paying GC officers to keep this secret and destroy evidence is about a far fetched as one can get. Today, with the advances in imaging, cameras, thermals, drones, digital trail cams and then add in the instant sharing of these images from smart phones and social media one had to ask why the hell there isn?t proof? The PA woods is not Area 51 and there is no way, no way in hell that images of these cats cannot be posted for all to see. So why do we not see pics or videos of these cats? Everytime one is sighted a convientant lack of a camera is always told of or a game warden suddenly appeared and deleted the pics/video, now aint that a convienant way to spin a tale?
I have never seen sign of a big cat, only bobcats and while they sport some pretty large paws they are not cougar tracks. A bobcats scream is often mistook for a big cat by those who have never heard a bobcat scream, it is a sound you will never forget but is easily confused. So much like bigfoot, people claim to have seen them but there is never any proof and today there is no excuse for proof.
And again, I?m skeptical, untrusting of unbacked stories and will say with 100% confidence that the PAGC has not secretly places big cats in PA, they are not there. I don?t believe stories without proof, want me to change my mind then show me undeniable proof that I?m wrong.
quote:Originally posted by He Dog
quote:but unless one is a wildlife biologist (which I am not) a cougar is a cougar.
You just proved your own point. Clearly all cougars, unlike us, were not created equal. The Florida panther is not the same as all other cougars.
Some taxonomists considered the Eastern cougar a distinct subspecies. If that subspecies was allopatric, i.e. genetically isolated from other cougars, then I would consider it a separate species. If it were sympatric with other cougars, then there would have to be other genetic isolating mechanisms to consider it different. In the case of cougars, it appears geography is the only genetic isolating mechanism. If the Eastern cougar was previously isolated, it is no longer and has not been for a time, so either it is extinct or will very soon be genetically swamped by the pandemic cougar. Either way it is gone.
Gentlemen - Mr. HeDog has the answer you seek. Signed - a Certified Wildlife Biologist ?
Of course, if you put 5 biologists in a room, you will get 8 different opinions....
Comments
Pointing out that trifecta of tergiversation is not nit-picking.
I give up. It is blatantly obvious that the thing that's extinct is reading comprehension.
Photographic proof extinct is not extinct until the subjects are totally extinct and even then a doubt remains.
There's also reading comprehension.[:D]
I'm a sesquipedalian.
heres hopen it don't hurt ya to bad............
Thinking back on my encounters with the Cougar that frequents our woods here in the Piney Woods of East Texas; I'm now of the opinion that Chain Migration is the reason for the extinct status of the subspecies designated as the Eastern Cougar since I'm sure I detected a distinct Eastern accent when the Cougar snarled at me! I guess, for them, the Mississippi River is the new Rio Grande and they are alive and well West of the Mississippi! [:D]
If you can't feel the music; it's only pink noise!
What sort of nonsensicalness is this? They deserve much opprobrium. Classic broken window fallacy.
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
Rack Ops, yes, I must fall into that category too (i.e. replying with an 'anecdote proving it is all liberal propaganda'). However, I must ask you the same question as Rocky Raab; what is the point of an article talking about "extinction" if not to evoke some emotional reaction from the reader?
"Extinct" is a definitive word regarding the definitive status of a species. Whether it invokes emotion or not is immaterial. It is what it is. The facts are that Eastern Cougar has been on the Endangered Species list for several decades and now scientists have reached the conclusion that there are no more Eastern Cougars left. Again, your particular emotional response is immaterial. It's a simple statement of fact.
quote:
Lastly (not directed at anyone in particular), I must add, this article appears in an "Earth Matters" section of the publication. If the intent of the article is to spotlight the importance of the "eastern" cougar over other cougars, then why are the characteristics unique to the eastern cougar not presented in the article??? That is, unless the article isn't some "liberal propaganda" piece bent on shaming all the non-wildlife biologist types (people) into feeling guilty for yet another wrong against the animal kingdom?
If you can find something in the article that says the Eastern Cougar was somehow "more important" than other sub-species of Cougar, please highlight it. I saw nothing but a couple of plain statements: 1) The Eastern Cougar used to be present in all states east of the Mississippi and 2) Now, the subspecies is extinct.
I saw nothing stated that there is some unique characteristic of Eastern Cougar that makes them biologically superior to other Cougar varieties, and nothing in the way of an impending ecological apocalypse due to their loss. Personally, I'll go on record as being a little saddened at the loss of a little bit of the Animal Kingdom (or God's creation, for those believers out there) that we'll never get back....but that is strictly my own opinion, and not one that the author goes out of the way to make.
quote:
So yeah, my 'knee jerk' response was intended to point out the article is BS 'liberal propaganda'. And, until someone can point out the reasons why I should know the difference between the two breeds, and why I should feel bad about it, then...I stand by my response.
Facts are stubborn things, and your choice to dismiss them as "liberal propaganda" is, of course, your right....but it doesn't make them incorrect in anyone's mind other than your own. Neither the original author nor anyone in this thread has said there are important differences you should know, nor even that you need to need to feel bad about it. Only that they did exist...and now they don't.
I stand by my response as well.
"IF" YOU...can find anything in the subject article which supports your somewhat numbing point...then please DO!!
Until then, I remain...fast.
The point of the article was twofold:
1) There used to be a sub-species of Cougar in the Eastern US.
2) That sub species no longer exists.
I'm not sure what it is about the two points you believe is incorrect, as you've offered no evidence, anecdotally or otherwise...just rather bland statements that you consider them to be "propaganda".
quote:Originally posted by Rocky Raab
If it were just a nit, I'd agree. But here (once again) we have a disingenuous thread title, a poorly written article from a dubious source, and then a raft of replies which do nothing but reinforce the whole "fake news" aspect of the thing.
Pointing out that trifecta of tergiversation is not nit-picking.
Then perhaps your admonishment of that "tergiversation" should have been directed at the OP for the thread title, and not the broader membership base based on the content of the article (which I DID read, hence my response). So yeah...nit picking.
By the way, I've been on this planet for about 54 years, and consider myself to have a fairly good vocabulary. In those 54 years I have never seen the use of the word "tergiversation" used in spoken or written English. (Frankly, I had to look it up). This begs the question of why someone would choose such a word if for no other reason than to demonstrate their apparent superior intellect over others. Others, like say a someone who wrote a little more thought out response than "Uhhh Yeah, what he said".
So there's that. [;)][:D]
I'm right there with you FCD.
edit...case in point, name one sentence in the article which says the words "sub-species".
Stick with cilantro...you're better at it.
Game, set and match.
G'night.
How about the FIRST SENTENCE
"The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service has declared the eastern cougar subspecies (known as both Felis concolor couguar and Puma concolor couguar) officially extinct and removed it from the Federal List of Threatened and Endangered Wildlife. Cougars are also known as mountain lions, pumas and panthers."
Game, set, match indeed.
edit...even though you are of similar tenure, I'm not sure you ever saw the battles between me and the legendary DWS. A truly intelligent man who had/used words as a weapon, wicked and cutting...make a man step back from any fight. Few would blaze on. DWS and I did business many times, and he was one of the most kind, understanding people who have ever tread here on GB. Despite all my education, he could disarm most (myself included...sometimes), catch you off balance and turn his boot on the side of your face like an expended cigarette (in the dirt of life).I would consider myself 180 degrees opposite of DWS... there was one time some dude pissed us both off and he was getting hammered from both directions... he was like
[:D][8D]
You just proved your own point. Clearly all cougars, unlike us, were not created equal. The Florida panther is not the same as all other cougars.
Some taxonomists considered the Eastern cougar a distinct subspecies. If that subspecies was allopatric, i.e. genetically isolated from other cougars, then I would consider it a separate species. If it were sympatric with other cougars, then there would have to be other genetic isolating mechanisms to consider it different. In the case of cougars, it appears geography is the only genetic isolating mechanism. If the Eastern cougar was previously isolated, it is no longer and has not been for a time, so either it is extinct or will very soon be genetically swamped by the pandemic cougar. Either way it is gone.
This has been a topic for debate here in eastern Pa. for as long as I can remember [:0] Some folks say that mt. lions are here , some (mostly WCO's) say not . Personally , I have never seen one , but believe they could be around here & there . There are some really remote/Isolated areas up in the northern counties of Pa. Like Potter , Tioga , Bradford and such .
I lived most of my adult life in PA, spent more time in the woods than any notmal man should have. I lived and breathed hunting and in my younger years quit jobs so I could go hunting. From shooting groundhogs, runnin * dogs year round, archery deer hunting, gun huning, small game, you name it, I spent as much time out as I could.
Now every once in awhile someone would spin a tale about a black panther that lived in the woods behind Shirleysburg or some other place in the Huntingdon/Mifflin county areas. The old timers would tell these stories that reminded me of tales of Bigfoot and everyone of them would claim to have a persoanl experiance with it. I?ll admit, as a young man the old timers were to be respected and no doubts given to their stories, but it sounds far fetched. I looked all over the hills and mountains for any sign of a big cat and have never once seen anything except for bobcats.
As time went on the tales of the black oanther were replaced with tales of mountain lions/cougars that the PAGC secretly planted in the state. One old state trooper once claimed he stopped a tractor trailer on I-80 that was hauling a secret government load of these cats to be released into the eastern states. Any of these tales all had one thing in common, they all ended with the same story of the PAGC covering up sightings, taking cameras, removing dead cats and even jailing those who killed one amd forcing them to be silent.
Me, I?m a skeptical man, very skeptical, I have heard so many tall tales over the years that honestly I have lost a lot of trust in stories that have no proof. Most of these stores also come from the same people who claim to have been witness to UFOs, the low IQ hillbilly living in a trailer park who was abducted by aliens or even the bib overall wearing redneck who is always the first on camera after a tornado. Honestly, I laugh when these tales start up, from tall trucker tales to government conspiracies and these PA Mountain Man stories of the big cats secretly places in the woods by a sneaky PAGC.
So ask yourself this, what does the PAGC have to gain by secretly introducing big cats to the woods? Really what do they have to gain? Any state for that matter? If they do it in secret the truth will come out real quick, they can?t train these cats to wreak havic but yet stay hidden. They will breed, they will multiply and sooner or later they will appear. But these tales all claim that the PAGC agressively keeps them a secret, why would they do that and what is to gain? Gary Alt only took a couple years to destroy the deer population in parts of PA and made the PAGC a ton of money while doing it. Gary Alt proved that if you want to lower deer populations you simply prey on the greed of hunters and sell them unlimited doe tags, change the seasons around a bit and the deer will be gone.
To introduce big cats secretly will not have the same effect and will cost tons, paying GC officers to keep this secret and destroy evidence is about a far fetched as one can get. Today, with the advances in imaging, cameras, thermals, drones, digital trail cams and then add in the instant sharing of these images from smart phones and social media one had to ask why the hell there isn?t proof? The PA woods is not Area 51 and there is no way, no way in hell that images of these cats cannot be posted for all to see. So why do we not see pics or videos of these cats? Everytime one is sighted a convientant lack of a camera is always told of or a game warden suddenly appeared and deleted the pics/video, now aint that a convienant way to spin a tale?
I have never seen sign of a big cat, only bobcats and while they sport some pretty large paws they are not cougar tracks. A bobcats scream is often mistook for a big cat by those who have never heard a bobcat scream, it is a sound you will never forget but is easily confused. So much like bigfoot, people claim to have seen them but there is never any proof and today there is no excuse for proof.
And again, I?m skeptical, untrusting of unbacked stories and will say with 100% confidence that the PAGC has not secretly places big cats in PA, they are not there. I don?t believe stories without proof, want me to change my mind then show me undeniable proof that I?m wrong.
Eastern Mount'n Cougar
I would be willing to trade you two western mountain lions for one of them Eastern Mount'n cougars.[:)]
quote:Originally posted by droptop
Eastern Mount'n Cougar
I would be willing to trade you two western mountain lions for one of them Eastern Mount'n cougars.[:)]
That one may do damage that makes you wish a western mountain lion had eaten you!
Is thsi what you guys are talking about?
House Cat
Im fairly close to Armalite too, East of the Miss., and I know for a fact they are extinct in my chicken coop!
[:D][:D][:D]
Eastern Mount'n Cougar
Those are fake, damnit. Fake as could be.
Eastern Mount'n Cougar
quote:but unless one is a wildlife biologist (which I am not) a cougar is a cougar.
You just proved your own point. Clearly all cougars, unlike us, were not created equal. The Florida panther is not the same as all other cougars.
Some taxonomists considered the Eastern cougar a distinct subspecies. If that subspecies was allopatric, i.e. genetically isolated from other cougars, then I would consider it a separate species. If it were sympatric with other cougars, then there would have to be other genetic isolating mechanisms to consider it different. In the case of cougars, it appears geography is the only genetic isolating mechanism. If the Eastern cougar was previously isolated, it is no longer and has not been for a time, so either it is extinct or will very soon be genetically swamped by the pandemic cougar. Either way it is gone.
Gentlemen - Mr. HeDog has the answer you seek. Signed - a Certified Wildlife Biologist ?
Of course, if you put 5 biologists in a room, you will get 8 different opinions....