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I think there's a place for all kinds of cars, it depends on your dreams. I used to be a master of the shoehorn; put 327's in Falcons, even put one in a VW! (the VW would jump off the road when you hit 2nd!) Nowadays, I'm an antagonized purist --- I'm restoring my '57 TBird with every bolt and nut as original. That's pretty tough for an old hot rodder, it sure would be a lot easier to drop a 427 side oiler with a T-10 in it! If I did that, the value of the car would drop in half. It drives me crazy having to buy all that expensive original stuff, but someday I'll be finished with it and it'll look like it just came out of the Wixom, Michigan factory. (I did cheat a little, added the F Bird (supercharged) cam and lifters, opened the bore a bit, had the heads ported - but those are internal mods and no one can see them!) They'll be able to hear it, but not see it!
The answer is obvious -- most people are not front yard mechanics. Most people do not tinker with their cars. So they buy what they can afford, and choose from what they like. The thing about the GTO is not that DeLorean pushed it on anybody, in fact he did not. What happened was a custom car he built for himself wound up in a limited edition, followed by 35000 back-orders, and transformed the Pontiac nameplate from an old people's sedan to a youngster's sport model in terms of marketing. DeLorean didn't do much selling. In fact, he got sucked up into an unsuspected marketing vaccuum. Kids didn't buy Polaras and Chryslers no matter how big the block was.
It isn't about what a muscle car should or shouldn't be defined as, it's about the historical fact that a trend was set when GTOs with big engines and Hurst shifters started to sell, and this trend which started as a Pontiac experiment with 5000 cars controlled the marketplace for the next few years and was responsible for a lot of big 3 decisions about how to sell to young people.
There seemed to be two parallel tracks for these cars -- the boxy ones, like the RoadRunners, Chargers, Darts, and Chevelles, and the Mustang-shaped cars with long front ends and odd-looking dumpy short trunks -- the Mustangs, Camaros, Firebirds, Javelins, and AMXs -- and Shelbys. Some people laughed at the little trunks, but the cars handled well.
You can wish the phenomenon had included the big sedans all you want, but it was the smaller cars that seemed to appeal to the youth market at the time -- the big ones looked too much like the old man's sedan -- in fact, they WERE often the old man's sedan. But the old man did not buy the canary yellow Camaro or the green RoadRunner with the Warner Brothers cartoon on the side. The true muscle cars were not the 289s or the 327s. They were the 396s and above. They had 395 horsepower and higher. They had 6-pack carbs, or hemis, or ram air, maybe straight pipes, and they were overt and exhibitionist about it all.
They were the 60s equivalent of the chopped and channeled hot rods of the 50s. You can maintain that there were unchopped and unchanneled full sized cars of similar power available to adults, but you just can't call them hot rods.
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
quote:
Kids didn't buy Polaras and Chryslers no matter how big the block was.
It isn't about what a muscle car should or shouldn't be defined as, it's about the historical fact that a trend was set when GTOs with big engines and Hurst shifters started to sell, and this trend which started as a Pontiac experiment with 5000 cars controlled the marketplace for the next few years and was responsible for a lot of big 3 decisions about how to sell to young people.
There seemed to be two parallel tracks for these cars -- the boxy ones, like the RoadRunners, Chargers, Darts, and Chevelles, and the Mustang-shaped cars with long front ends and odd-looking dumpy short trunks -- the Mustangs, Camaros, Firebirds, Javelins, and AMXs -- and Shelbys. Some people laughed at the little trunks, but the cars handled well.
RE: First paragraph, if not kids, who was buying all the Chevy 409s, Ford 406s and Hemi Dodges in the three years preceding the GTO?
RE: Second paragraph, Chevy and Dodge figured out how to sell to young people in 1961; see immediately above.
RE: Third paragraph, by definition that a muscle car is a mid-size sedan, only three of the cars you list fit the category (Roadrunner, Charger and Chevelle).
RE: "The true muscle cars...had 395 horsepower and higher", I think you've just about eliminated everything from the category except the big Dodges.
It would be interesting to consult the literature to see when the term "muscle car" first appeared and to what it referred. My guess is the late 70's - early 80's. Post-period retrospectives crediting Delorean and the GTO for starting the phenomenon is creative history.
Often the mind believes it is thinking, when it is only passing from one metaphor to the next.
Edited by - DancesWithSheep on 09/24/2002 23:51:04
OK, anybody want to hear about my 12 second car. Well 12.30's to be closer. It's a 78 Camaro, 373 posi rear sub-frame connectors and ladder bar. Fiberglass hood full comp turbo 400 with a manual reverse valve body. Now for the motor 750 holloy with a victor jr intake. MSD ignition, heads I forget the casting number however they are angle plug heads with manly pro-flow valves 2.05-1.6 and harland sharp roller rockers. A full comp. cams valve train 507/292(cam). A four bolt main block 350 bored .30 over 10.5 forged pistons polished and shot peened pink rods and a forged crank. A set of hooker super comp headers and flow master mufflers. I have a nitrous system but never used it. Now the bad part the cars been in storage for several years. I always think I will get it out, but I don't. I just hate to sell my last piece of youth.
JudgeColt, you're completely right about the "'68" Mustang, I typo'd very, very badly and deserve to be spanked. As for my Mustang vs. a C5, I'm sure that my '66 could keep up with the C5 in a slalom. This is based on my firsthand experience with my Mustang and my friend's Trans Am, and my analysis of that Trans Am's statistical performance compared to the C5. Note: I'm NOT saying my Mustang could kick a C5's butt, but it could run with it around the turns just fine.
You are correct to point out that the suspension geometry of the old Mustangs could be improved (hence the aftermarket parts available), but you have to remember that the early Mustangs made great road-racing cars. Shelby didn't really do much of anything to their suspension when he made the GT-350 other than changing the shocks, springs and roll bars. The light curb weight is their biggest advantage over most modern cars - my Mustang weighs about 500lbs less than a C5! Also, the Falcon (as far back as '62) was a champion hill climb and rally car over in Europe - you can't compete in those events without "well sorted" (as the English would say) handling.
FYI: The company that made my exhaust crossover (I forget their name at the moment but can look them up if you really want to know) also makes upper-A-arm relocation kits for old Mustangs. They advertise their '68/351CJ pulls 1.10 (not 1.01) on the skidpad with 17" BFG rubber. This doesn't address balance, but with the right combo of springs and shocks I'm sure understeer can be tamed.
More FYI: One of my car mags (I forget which one, as this was more than 5 years ago) ran a head-to-head contest between a bone-stock Viper GTS coupe and a concourse-specific Ford Cobra Daytona Coupe replica. Note: The Ford was PERFECTLY original from the 70-series tires to the stickers in the engine bay - not modified in any way. The Viper edged it out in acceleration; 0-60 was 4.2 vs. the Ford's 4.4, the Viper also beat it slightly in the 1/4 mile. If memory serves, they pretty much tied in braking (neither was great), but the Cobra BEAT the Viper on the skidpad (1.01 vs. 0.99)! Better than that, the Cobra actually posted a faster average lap time on their test track than the Viper! What amazes me even more than a 30 year old car beating a modern one who was its indirect decendant is that the Cobra won while riding on comparatively horrible '60s-era tires!
7mm nut, To each his own. I personally can't stand "mass produced hot rods" like the Prowler, Howler and PT Cruiser (BLECH!). There is something inherently evil about mass producing a product and calling it "custom". But I have a lot of respect for the men and women who can come up with a produceable, affordable product that honestly portrays its qualities without resorting to marketing gimics. Off-the-showroom muscle cars do that great! I would feel pride owning such a product out of respect for the designers and love for the machine itself. The only thing I'd like better would be to modify it to suit my personal style and needs. Luckily I CAN do this, but many people don't have the mechanical skill to do so on their own. I may feel sad for them, but I don't begrudge them for paying someone else to rod their car out. What I DO hate are those people who spend $100k on a hot rod without caring about the final product, without putting any of themselves into the car. They are tasteless whores (can I say that word here?).
Re. the argument between offeror and DancesWithSheep, you are both right. I believe the term "muscle car" was coined a few years after the introduction of the GTO, and was in reference to the '64 GTO tripower. Obviously there were many fast cars, of several size classes, that existed and sold well before the GTO. Equally obvious is the social impact the GTO made on the public which in turn spawned a whole automotive movement. I think it would be fair to say that while the GTO was the catalist for what historians refer to as the "muscle car era", the older 409s, 300s, Thunderbolts and Hawks were the spiritual forefathers of the GTO concept.
www.ebsart.com
"Live by the three 'R's: Respect, Responsibility and Residuals."
I have always been a Ford fanatic, and I have owned my share of Mustangs over the years, but I really like to see any older Muscle Car driving on the road today. Just reading through the listed cars on this post made me feel good, and kind of sick at the same time. As a young wet behind the ear, snot noised teenager I was very privileged to have owned quite a few of the cars on these list. A really good friend of mine had a father who worked for an insurance company back then. He had a side job of driving a tow truck to recover wrecked & stolen vehicles for the insurance company. His father would bid on, and buy a lot of the muscle cars that would turn up from time to time. My 68 GT 500 KR Shelby was one of these cars. It had been reported stolen, and by the time it was located the original owner had it replaced. So the insurance company put it up for sale. The only thing wrong with it was, no seat, no upper intake & hood, and no tires. Guess how long it took me to find replacement parts, and get a new paint job? Here are a few of the others I acquired the same way, and didn't really know what I had when I had it, and I didn't appreciate it at the time.
1. 1967 or 68 GTO, First car at 16 years of age, didn't have it two days, and I wrecked it. What is a "GOAT"?
2. 1964 Ford Fairlane, 390, with lot's of extras. Black with Crager SS mags. Sold it to by the next one.
3. 1970 Mustang Mach 1, nothing-special 302. Couldn't steer to save it's *. Roommate wrecked it.
4. 1970 Cougar Eliminator. SCJ 428, leather. This car had it all, muscle car attitude with luxury. The girls really liked this one! It was chocolate brown, and the power train came from a wrecked red one. Both were Eliminators, and all equipment was swapped to replace original missing items. Two cars in one. It is still on the road today, but I do not own it.
5. 1973 "puke green" Mustang Mach 1, 351 CJ. Nice ride, nothing great. Sold it to by the next one. Car is wrecked and long gone, but the motor is still running in a 1956 Ford truck my brother owns.
6. 1968 Shelby GT 500 KR. Originally red, painted blue, then black. This car could really rip. Is still on the road to day, and has been restored to original. This car is listed in the top five of the most valuable Classic/muscle cars today. Average cost $65K
7. 1988 Mustang GT, bought new for wife. Sold in 1989, after moving to Northern NY, and could drive it in the snow.
Jungle Jim,
Besides the 1967 427 AC Cobra, the 1957 T-bird is one of my most all time favorite cars. You need to post a picture here, I would love to see it, and I'm sure others would too. I respect you for sticking stock.
Trinity +++
"Train up a child in the way he should go, even when he is old he will not depart from it."(Proverbs 22:6)
Ask and you shall recieve. These photos aren't the best in the world, and please overlook my dirty garage! Unfortunately, I am in the process of stripping the undercoat & paint off the bottom of the car and it's the dirtiest job imaginable.
Having reached driving age in 1961, I can remember then and in the immediate years following when a friend or someone would get a new 409 Biscayne or Ford 406 tri-power or Hemi Dodge. These were THE bad boy cars of the time, and in each case the concept was pretty much the same: Base-level sedan, biggest/most powerful engine offered, few frills (most had radio and heater delete options).
These were marketed as "street-race" cars, which was certainly less vague than the term "muscle car" coined years later by automotive writers when referring to a class of cars which by then were no lnger produced ("muscle car" was not a word used contemporarily to the cars themselves; you didn't walk into a dealership in 1965 or 1966 and say, "Yes, I'd like to see a red muscle car, please.")
There is no doubt that the popularity of the "muscle car" increased when more were around from which to choose, such as after the introduction of the GTO and big-block Chevelles. But popularizing a concept and originating a concept are not the same thing. In fact, the "muscle car" as a concept has its roots in the 1930's.
Often the mind believes it is thinking, when it is only passing from one metaphor to the next.
As a kid, I saw a '57 TBird that was beautiful --- Black with red interior, and swore someday I'd have one. It took more than 20 years to do it. I've bought and sold 5 TBirds; the keeper that's pictured above was originally black with red interior and a red non-porthole top which is pretty rare. The car was built in October 1957, the 1958's were already out, and the factory was still building '57's to fill orders and use up the parts in stock.
The Delorean is a 1981 model, built in July 1981, with 10,000 original miles. It has the rare grooved hood, and hidden gas door flap. The first Deloreans built were of pretty poor build quality, and had to be repaired in the US before they were sold. This car was built far enough along in the buld cycle that the fit & finish was pretty good, and most of the bugs were worked out.(The 1982's were released in August 1981).
Dances -- I think you need an ER visit to have that bee removed.
This topic seems to get your goat. I'm not sure this is creative history, it's just one way of looking at the phenomenon. My opinion that the true muscle cars were 396 and up stems from the fact that the other kid's bigger, hotter muscle car always made the kids with "only" a 327 or a 389 drool. I wasn't being absolute about it. But there were a lot more cars then with horsepower ratings in the 395 to 400+ range at that time. Today, if we have 320-340 horses, we're talking a Z1 or a Supra Twin Turbo or a Stealth, and those are considered full fledged sports car horsepower ratings. Back then, 320 horses was almost wimpy, if you see my point.
Did kids buy big cars because that's all there was? Sure they did. But did they move to the "muscle cars" like the GTO and SS and RoadRunner in droves when they came out? HEll, yes. Muscle cars were a marketing phenom. Nobody's denying there was a 409. That's just another topic.
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
By the way, just to prove I don't have blinders on, and am not trying to give DeLorean too much credit, this whole discussion largely ignores the Vette AND the Thunderbird, which were youth cars outside the so-called muscle car phenomenon.
The Avanti is another very good case in point. Even that sporty VW model qualifies for discussion as a youth sport model -- its name escapes me at the moment. And we haven't even touched on the whole pre-muscle car phenomenon of the MG, Spitfire, XKE, TR6 and 7, Sprite, Cobra 427, Pantera, and all those other lovely roadsters and experiments that the kids bought in the early 60s. In fact, my buddy who had the 350 Shelby? His previous car had been a robin's egg blue British MG convertible. With which we had scads of fun too.
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
I thought that was a picture of a very rare 1957 Red roof DeLorean with that paint job, or should I say lack of it? You have got to send some updated photos when you get it on the road. What is your projected drive date?
Offeror,
Dude, scratch the Vette, T-bird, and Cobra, and a lot of those cars you spoke of are what we used to call "Chick rides". Fun to ride in, but you wouldn't want to be caught working on, driving or owning one. I would have changed a flat on my then girlfriends Pinto before I fixed the breaks on her sisters MG.
Trinity +++
"Train up a child in the way he should go, even when he is old he will not depart from it."(Proverbs 22:6)
Offeror: It isn't the topic that gets my goat; it's statements like this:
quote:
My opinion that the true muscle cars were 396 and up stems from the fact that the other kid's bigger, hotter muscle car always made the kids with "only" a 327 or a 389 drool.
On the one hand, you attribute the "muscle car" phenomenon to a car which only came with a 389, and on the other you say that "true muscle cars" were 396 and up. So are we to now understand that all these kids with GTOs were in fact drooling for a real muscle car all along?
Often the mind believes it is thinking, when it is only passing from one metaphor to the next.
quote:Back then, 320 horses was almost wimpy, if you see my point.
Back then, 320 horses WAS comparatively wimpy, because horsepower was measured using different techniques. That 320hp, if measured today, would be around 250-270 - sweet for a light sedan, but nothing for a Vette to brag about. In fact, that's about what my F-150 makes. Or, if you prefer, we could measure at the rear wheels (the most honest measurement) and that number would drop to 192hp (in my truck's case).
www.ebsart.com
"Live by the three 'R's: Respect, Responsibility and Residuals."
Had a kid ask me one day if the TBird was made of stainless too because it was shiny! Well, the projected drive date is hard to pin down, I work on the car when I feel like it, and am not in any real hurry. (I am retired). I have budgeted $2,000.00 a year for parts, etc. and this year went way over budget. There's a lot that remains to be done; I have to finish stripping the underside, paint underneath, rebuild and paint the entire front suspension, strip and paint the engine bay, doors, and door jambs, then take it to my painter and have him do a little body work and paint the body and top. Then it comes back to me to be completely reassembled. We're probably talking another year or two.
Dances -- Don't get caught up too much in my numbers. The spirit of my point is that the trend was bigger was better. I recall those having "only" a 289 or a 327 envying the bigger ones. And The Judge exceeded earlier GTOs in available powerplants for the same reason, the trend was ever upward for a while. Horsepower envy. That doesn't make the early muscle cars non-muscle cars. I'm not trying to draw a line below which a car was not a muscle car. In fact, I'M not doing anything at the moment but navigating through the topic. I'm just saying that my 68 Camaro with the Hydramatic was not considered as cool as a car with similar engine but a Hurst shifter. It's not really a numbers game so much as a consumer phenomenon -- what was hot, and what was not. I don't have to make you wrong. I was there too, though.
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
There are three rules to hotrodding and muscle cars.
1. Stock sucks.
2. There is no replacement for cubic displacement.
3. No such thing as "Too Much Power".
Factory cars are nothing more than a starting point, buy a big block Camaro, yep it will run good, but now instead of having a copy of the next guys car, make it faster.
Like guns, are you more proud of that factory Browning or that custom built bench gun?
Real men use little bullets.
I don't know your age, but your correct, any kid whose parents would fork out around $4500 could have a car back
The Almighty Himself Entrusted the Future of All Living Creatures to a Wooden Boat.- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -"Audemus jura nostra defendere"
Oops, wrong button. Point was, 4500 bucks then was like 30000 today.
The Almighty Himself Entrusted the Future of All Living Creatures to a Wooden Boat.- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -"Audemus jura nostra defendere"
I paid $3900.00 for my L-78 Nova in 1969, and was making $600.00 a month, which was good money for the time. The TBird sold for $3600.00 in 1957; and the Delorean sold for $26,000.00 in 1981.
The TBird restored is worth 10 - 12 times the selling price, the Delorean is worth about 70 - 75% of the selling price. A 100 point restored authentic '69 L-78 Nova is worth 4 to 5 times the selling price. Unfortunately, (if you're buying) the losers in the stock market are moving over to the collector car market and paying outrageous prices which is in turn inflating the collector car prices. It doesn't affect me as I'm not buying or selling, only buying parts.
What I didn't like about street machines or street rods is that you eventually get tired of them, or find something you like better and want to sell, and that's when you take the hard hit. You can't even come close to getting your money back usually, and all your years of labor end up being free. With collector cars your investment will appreciate. It takes about the same amount of time to completely restore a collector car as it does to build a street rod, and I'd rather gain than lose.
If I'm building a street rod it is not to "make" money, it is for personal enjoyment and I CANNOT enjoy someone elses work or design. It is my only opinion and an opinion of a TRUE hotrodder that factory cars are for...............well I better shut up now.
Real men use little bullets.
You're entitled to your opinion, no problem there. When I was younger cost was no object to get something I wanted. As I am now retired and am on a good but fixed income, I watch every dollar. I gave away a lot of cars in the past; would spend years and big bucks building something no one else had. Guess I've become more conservative.
"My goal is to build a '66 Volkswagon replica using an original Type 35 Bugatti or Mercedes SSK chassis".
Hey DWS:
There's a 350 powered VW on Ebay in the Custom cars section!
(You have a very dry - but funny - sense of humor!
The 2003 Mustang Cobra has 390 horsepower (and
about a 3400 curb weight) and is selling for
under $35,000. I have a feeling that in 20
years I will look back and wonder why the hell
I didn't buy one and stash it in a barn somewhere.
390 horses for under $35,000. That's something.
BTW, my '89 SHO had only 220 horses but would
do 0-60 in about six and a half seconds.
Considering I got it for under $4,000, that's
quite a bargain.
Jim: Car Horror Story #2: I bought a wrecked AC 428 roadster (no, not a Shelby) in 1986. I shipped the car, original brass brake and clutch pedals and original set of Halibrands to England for a company to build me a Cobra replica (they had the jigs and panel beaters to make new aluminum Cobra bodies). I sent incremental payments as work was performed, getting pictures of the car "in progress" with each invoice. About four months into this deal, I get a call from Boyd Coddington (the gun writer), saying he had just returned from the same company in England (they stupidly used me as a reference) and that he thought he had gotten the aluminum body I was supposed to get. Turns out, the company (Gravett Engineering) was taking money for orders they couldn't possibly fill. Coddington had gotten suspicious and went over there, and demanded the goods he had paid for. I was too late. I flew to England on Coddington's advice, only to find that the 428 engine and chassis had been sold to a guy in Belgium, and that the aluminum body meant for my car was in fact given to Coddington. I lost everything, even ended up paying court costs over the next two years for a case I eventually lost.
Often the mind believes it is thinking, when it is only passing from one metaphor to the next.
I read somewhere that an aluminum Cobra body is being made in Poland by a former aircraft manufacturing comapny and sold in the US for about $20K. That's too rich for me.....
I have a friend that has a fiberglass Cobra replica with a 2-4bbl. side oiler 427 that keeps eyeing the Delorean; his car has the round tube frame and 10 bolt rear end -- who knows, someday we might make a deal.
(He thinks the Cobra's worth more than I think it's worth!)
Jim: I've heard the glass cobras are stronger (less tweak) than the originals. But I figured (like the Mark IV Cobras) if you can get an aluminum body, it would make it more authentic. I've seen some Contemporary Cobra replicas going for $60K+. That to me is insane.
Often the mind believes it is thinking, when it is only passing from one metaphor to the next.
My friend's Cobra replica has a Kevlar fiberglass body, and still has a few stress cracks in it after 10K miles. Of course, he drives the hell out of it! 60K is a lot of money for a repro, but I learned a long time ago that people will buy and pay for anything, unless it's something I have for sale!
I saw a 1985 Autocraft MarkIV Cobra in Dallas with the 5.0 MPFI last week, car has less than 5K miles on it, and is absolutely pristine. They're asking $50K, and I'll bet someone will buy it. The stock market hoppers are running up the prices on just about all collector cars. I saw the same thing happen in 1988, after black Monday, and it appears like it's happening again. I sold a '57 "E" bird (factory 2-4's, 285HP) in 1989 for the unheard price of $33,500.00 - the buyer kept it 2 weeks and sold it for $40K!
how about muscle pickups? i had a 1983 f 250 ford 4x4 with a 6.9l diesel engine that i souped up i turboed it and changed somethings on the engine and inj pump, man that baby would haul *... it would run with some of the muscle cars and beat some of them. it was all black and had crome bumpers push bar, chrome rims,4" chrome stacks that came out of the front corners inside the box right behind the cab. and yes they where functional stacks they would throw coal black smoke a long ways into the air plus the turbo whine could be heard perfectly :-)
one thing HP in the old days meant something......it meant that there was some torque being made:-)not like now a days when an engine is rated high HP just because of very high rpm. old engines.. big blocks didnt have to be wraped up to 6000 rpm to make HP like theses little engine nowadays do! i used to drive a car that had a 455 cid engine in it ...you could powerbrake it untill the tires burned down to the rims, like to see one of theses little teeny weeny engines do that:-)ITS all about torque in my book.
doc
Comments
"De Oppresso Liber"
It isn't about what a muscle car should or shouldn't be defined as, it's about the historical fact that a trend was set when GTOs with big engines and Hurst shifters started to sell, and this trend which started as a Pontiac experiment with 5000 cars controlled the marketplace for the next few years and was responsible for a lot of big 3 decisions about how to sell to young people.
There seemed to be two parallel tracks for these cars -- the boxy ones, like the RoadRunners, Chargers, Darts, and Chevelles, and the Mustang-shaped cars with long front ends and odd-looking dumpy short trunks -- the Mustangs, Camaros, Firebirds, Javelins, and AMXs -- and Shelbys. Some people laughed at the little trunks, but the cars handled well.
You can wish the phenomenon had included the big sedans all you want, but it was the smaller cars that seemed to appeal to the youth market at the time -- the big ones looked too much like the old man's sedan -- in fact, they WERE often the old man's sedan. But the old man did not buy the canary yellow Camaro or the green RoadRunner with the Warner Brothers cartoon on the side. The true muscle cars were not the 289s or the 327s. They were the 396s and above. They had 395 horsepower and higher. They had 6-pack carbs, or hemis, or ram air, maybe straight pipes, and they were overt and exhibitionist about it all.
They were the 60s equivalent of the chopped and channeled hot rods of the 50s. You can maintain that there were unchopped and unchanneled full sized cars of similar power available to adults, but you just can't call them hot rods.
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
Kids didn't buy Polaras and Chryslers no matter how big the block was.
It isn't about what a muscle car should or shouldn't be defined as, it's about the historical fact that a trend was set when GTOs with big engines and Hurst shifters started to sell, and this trend which started as a Pontiac experiment with 5000 cars controlled the marketplace for the next few years and was responsible for a lot of big 3 decisions about how to sell to young people.
There seemed to be two parallel tracks for these cars -- the boxy ones, like the RoadRunners, Chargers, Darts, and Chevelles, and the Mustang-shaped cars with long front ends and odd-looking dumpy short trunks -- the Mustangs, Camaros, Firebirds, Javelins, and AMXs -- and Shelbys. Some people laughed at the little trunks, but the cars handled well.
RE: First paragraph, if not kids, who was buying all the Chevy 409s, Ford 406s and Hemi Dodges in the three years preceding the GTO?
RE: Second paragraph, Chevy and Dodge figured out how to sell to young people in 1961; see immediately above.
RE: Third paragraph, by definition that a muscle car is a mid-size sedan, only three of the cars you list fit the category (Roadrunner, Charger and Chevelle).
RE: "The true muscle cars...had 395 horsepower and higher", I think you've just about eliminated everything from the category except the big Dodges.
It would be interesting to consult the literature to see when the term "muscle car" first appeared and to what it referred. My guess is the late 70's - early 80's. Post-period retrospectives crediting Delorean and the GTO for starting the phenomenon is creative history.
Often the mind believes it is thinking, when it is only passing from one metaphor to the next.
Edited by - DancesWithSheep on 09/24/2002 23:51:04
JudgeColt, you're completely right about the "'68" Mustang, I typo'd very, very badly and deserve to be spanked. As for my Mustang vs. a C5, I'm sure that my '66 could keep up with the C5 in a slalom. This is based on my firsthand experience with my Mustang and my friend's Trans Am, and my analysis of that Trans Am's statistical performance compared to the C5. Note: I'm NOT saying my Mustang could kick a C5's butt, but it could run with it around the turns just fine.
You are correct to point out that the suspension geometry of the old Mustangs could be improved (hence the aftermarket parts available), but you have to remember that the early Mustangs made great road-racing cars. Shelby didn't really do much of anything to their suspension when he made the GT-350 other than changing the shocks, springs and roll bars. The light curb weight is their biggest advantage over most modern cars - my Mustang weighs about 500lbs less than a C5! Also, the Falcon (as far back as '62) was a champion hill climb and rally car over in Europe - you can't compete in those events without "well sorted" (as the English would say) handling.
FYI: The company that made my exhaust crossover (I forget their name at the moment but can look them up if you really want to know) also makes upper-A-arm relocation kits for old Mustangs. They advertise their '68/351CJ pulls 1.10 (not 1.01) on the skidpad with 17" BFG rubber. This doesn't address balance, but with the right combo of springs and shocks I'm sure understeer can be tamed.
More FYI: One of my car mags (I forget which one, as this was more than 5 years ago) ran a head-to-head contest between a bone-stock Viper GTS coupe and a concourse-specific Ford Cobra Daytona Coupe replica. Note: The Ford was PERFECTLY original from the 70-series tires to the stickers in the engine bay - not modified in any way. The Viper edged it out in acceleration; 0-60 was 4.2 vs. the Ford's 4.4, the Viper also beat it slightly in the 1/4 mile. If memory serves, they pretty much tied in braking (neither was great), but the Cobra BEAT the Viper on the skidpad (1.01 vs. 0.99)! Better than that, the Cobra actually posted a faster average lap time on their test track than the Viper! What amazes me even more than a 30 year old car beating a modern one who was its indirect decendant is that the Cobra won while riding on comparatively horrible '60s-era tires!
7mm nut, To each his own. I personally can't stand "mass produced hot rods" like the Prowler, Howler and PT Cruiser (BLECH!). There is something inherently evil about mass producing a product and calling it "custom". But I have a lot of respect for the men and women who can come up with a produceable, affordable product that honestly portrays its qualities without resorting to marketing gimics. Off-the-showroom muscle cars do that great! I would feel pride owning such a product out of respect for the designers and love for the machine itself. The only thing I'd like better would be to modify it to suit my personal style and needs. Luckily I CAN do this, but many people don't have the mechanical skill to do so on their own. I may feel sad for them, but I don't begrudge them for paying someone else to rod their car out. What I DO hate are those people who spend $100k on a hot rod without caring about the final product, without putting any of themselves into the car. They are tasteless whores (can I say that word here?).
Re. the argument between offeror and DancesWithSheep, you are both right. I believe the term "muscle car" was coined a few years after the introduction of the GTO, and was in reference to the '64 GTO tripower. Obviously there were many fast cars, of several size classes, that existed and sold well before the GTO. Equally obvious is the social impact the GTO made on the public which in turn spawned a whole automotive movement. I think it would be fair to say that while the GTO was the catalist for what historians refer to as the "muscle car era", the older 409s, 300s, Thunderbolts and Hawks were the spiritual forefathers of the GTO concept.
www.ebsart.com
"Live by the three 'R's: Respect, Responsibility and Residuals."
I have always been a Ford fanatic, and I have owned my share of Mustangs over the years, but I really like to see any older Muscle Car driving on the road today. Just reading through the listed cars on this post made me feel good, and kind of sick at the same time. As a young wet behind the ear, snot noised teenager I was very privileged to have owned quite a few of the cars on these list. A really good friend of mine had a father who worked for an insurance company back then. He had a side job of driving a tow truck to recover wrecked & stolen vehicles for the insurance company. His father would bid on, and buy a lot of the muscle cars that would turn up from time to time. My 68 GT 500 KR Shelby was one of these cars. It had been reported stolen, and by the time it was located the original owner had it replaced. So the insurance company put it up for sale. The only thing wrong with it was, no seat, no upper intake & hood, and no tires. Guess how long it took me to find replacement parts, and get a new paint job? Here are a few of the others I acquired the same way, and didn't really know what I had when I had it, and I didn't appreciate it at the time.
1. 1967 or 68 GTO, First car at 16 years of age, didn't have it two days, and I wrecked it. What is a "GOAT"?
2. 1964 Ford Fairlane, 390, with lot's of extras. Black with Crager SS mags. Sold it to by the next one.
3. 1970 Mustang Mach 1, nothing-special 302. Couldn't steer to save it's *. Roommate wrecked it.
4. 1970 Cougar Eliminator. SCJ 428, leather. This car had it all, muscle car attitude with luxury. The girls really liked this one! It was chocolate brown, and the power train came from a wrecked red one. Both were Eliminators, and all equipment was swapped to replace original missing items. Two cars in one. It is still on the road today, but I do not own it.
5. 1973 "puke green" Mustang Mach 1, 351 CJ. Nice ride, nothing great. Sold it to by the next one. Car is wrecked and long gone, but the motor is still running in a 1956 Ford truck my brother owns.
6. 1968 Shelby GT 500 KR. Originally red, painted blue, then black. This car could really rip. Is still on the road to day, and has been restored to original. This car is listed in the top five of the most valuable Classic/muscle cars today. Average cost $65K
7. 1988 Mustang GT, bought new for wife. Sold in 1989, after moving to Northern NY, and could drive it in the snow.
Jungle Jim,
Besides the 1967 427 AC Cobra, the 1957 T-bird is one of my most all time favorite cars. You need to post a picture here, I would love to see it, and I'm sure others would too. I respect you for sticking stock.
Trinity +++
"Train up a child in the way he should go, even when he is old he will not depart from it."(Proverbs 22:6)
Jim
"De Oppresso Liber"
"De Oppresso Liber"
These were marketed as "street-race" cars, which was certainly less vague than the term "muscle car" coined years later by automotive writers when referring to a class of cars which by then were no lnger produced ("muscle car" was not a word used contemporarily to the cars themselves; you didn't walk into a dealership in 1965 or 1966 and say, "Yes, I'd like to see a red muscle car, please.")
There is no doubt that the popularity of the "muscle car" increased when more were around from which to choose, such as after the introduction of the GTO and big-block Chevelles. But popularizing a concept and originating a concept are not the same thing. In fact, the "muscle car" as a concept has its roots in the 1930's.
Often the mind believes it is thinking, when it is only passing from one metaphor to the next.
The Delorean is a 1981 model, built in July 1981, with 10,000 original miles. It has the rare grooved hood, and hidden gas door flap. The first Deloreans built were of pretty poor build quality, and had to be repaired in the US before they were sold. This car was built far enough along in the buld cycle that the fit & finish was pretty good, and most of the bugs were worked out.(The 1982's were released in August 1981).
These 2 cars are my "driveable savings accounts".
"De Oppresso Liber"
This topic seems to get your goat. I'm not sure this is creative history, it's just one way of looking at the phenomenon. My opinion that the true muscle cars were 396 and up stems from the fact that the other kid's bigger, hotter muscle car always made the kids with "only" a 327 or a 389 drool. I wasn't being absolute about it. But there were a lot more cars then with horsepower ratings in the 395 to 400+ range at that time. Today, if we have 320-340 horses, we're talking a Z1 or a Supra Twin Turbo or a Stealth, and those are considered full fledged sports car horsepower ratings. Back then, 320 horses was almost wimpy, if you see my point.
Did kids buy big cars because that's all there was? Sure they did. But did they move to the "muscle cars" like the GTO and SS and RoadRunner in droves when they came out? HEll, yes. Muscle cars were a marketing phenom. Nobody's denying there was a 409. That's just another topic.
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
The Avanti is another very good case in point. Even that sporty VW model qualifies for discussion as a youth sport model -- its name escapes me at the moment. And we haven't even touched on the whole pre-muscle car phenomenon of the MG, Spitfire, XKE, TR6 and 7, Sprite, Cobra 427, Pantera, and all those other lovely roadsters and experiments that the kids bought in the early 60s. In fact, my buddy who had the 350 Shelby? His previous car had been a robin's egg blue British MG convertible. With which we had scads of fun too.
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
I thought that was a picture of a very rare 1957 Red roof DeLorean with that paint job, or should I say lack of it? You have got to send some updated photos when you get it on the road. What is your projected drive date?
Offeror,
Dude, scratch the Vette, T-bird, and Cobra, and a lot of those cars you spoke of are what we used to call "Chick rides". Fun to ride in, but you wouldn't want to be caught working on, driving or owning one. I would have changed a flat on my then girlfriends Pinto before I fixed the breaks on her sisters MG.
Trinity +++
"Train up a child in the way he should go, even when he is old he will not depart from it."(Proverbs 22:6)
quote:
My opinion that the true muscle cars were 396 and up stems from the fact that the other kid's bigger, hotter muscle car always made the kids with "only" a 327 or a 389 drool.
On the one hand, you attribute the "muscle car" phenomenon to a car which only came with a 389, and on the other you say that "true muscle cars" were 396 and up. So are we to now understand that all these kids with GTOs were in fact drooling for a real muscle car all along?
Often the mind believes it is thinking, when it is only passing from one metaphor to the next.
Back then, 320 horses WAS comparatively wimpy, because horsepower was measured using different techniques. That 320hp, if measured today, would be around 250-270 - sweet for a light sedan, but nothing for a Vette to brag about. In fact, that's about what my F-150 makes. Or, if you prefer, we could measure at the rear wheels (the most honest measurement) and that number would drop to 192hp (in my truck's case).
www.ebsart.com
"Live by the three 'R's: Respect, Responsibility and Residuals."
Had a kid ask me one day if the TBird was made of stainless too because it was shiny! Well, the projected drive date is hard to pin down, I work on the car when I feel like it, and am not in any real hurry. (I am retired). I have budgeted $2,000.00 a year for parts, etc. and this year went way over budget. There's a lot that remains to be done; I have to finish stripping the underside, paint underneath, rebuild and paint the entire front suspension, strip and paint the engine bay, doors, and door jambs, then take it to my painter and have him do a little body work and paint the body and top. Then it comes back to me to be completely reassembled. We're probably talking another year or two.
"De Oppresso Liber"
That makes me tired just just reading about all the work you still have to do.
Trinity +++
"Train up a child in the way he should go, even when he is old he will not depart from it."(Proverbs 22:6)
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
1. Stock sucks.
2. There is no replacement for cubic displacement.
3. No such thing as "Too Much Power".
Factory cars are nothing more than a starting point, buy a big block Camaro, yep it will run good, but now instead of having a copy of the next guys car, make it faster.
Like guns, are you more proud of that factory Browning or that custom built bench gun?
Real men use little bullets.
The Almighty Himself Entrusted the Future of All Living Creatures to a Wooden Boat.- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -"Audemus jura nostra defendere"
The Almighty Himself Entrusted the Future of All Living Creatures to a Wooden Boat.- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -"Audemus jura nostra defendere"
I paid $3900.00 for my L-78 Nova in 1969, and was making $600.00 a month, which was good money for the time. The TBird sold for $3600.00 in 1957; and the Delorean sold for $26,000.00 in 1981.
The TBird restored is worth 10 - 12 times the selling price, the Delorean is worth about 70 - 75% of the selling price. A 100 point restored authentic '69 L-78 Nova is worth 4 to 5 times the selling price. Unfortunately, (if you're buying) the losers in the stock market are moving over to the collector car market and paying outrageous prices which is in turn inflating the collector car prices. It doesn't affect me as I'm not buying or selling, only buying parts.
What I didn't like about street machines or street rods is that you eventually get tired of them, or find something you like better and want to sell, and that's when you take the hard hit. You can't even come close to getting your money back usually, and all your years of labor end up being free. With collector cars your investment will appreciate. It takes about the same amount of time to completely restore a collector car as it does to build a street rod, and I'd rather gain than lose.
"De Oppresso Liber"
Real men use little bullets.
Often the mind believes it is thinking, when it is only passing from one metaphor to the next.
You're entitled to your opinion, no problem there. When I was younger cost was no object to get something I wanted. As I am now retired and am on a good but fixed income, I watch every dollar. I gave away a lot of cars in the past; would spend years and big bucks building something no one else had. Guess I've become more conservative.
"My goal is to build a '66 Volkswagon replica using an original Type 35 Bugatti or Mercedes SSK chassis".
Hey DWS:
There's a 350 powered VW on Ebay in the Custom cars section!
(You have a very dry - but funny - sense of humor!
"De Oppresso Liber"
about a 3400 curb weight) and is selling for
under $35,000. I have a feeling that in 20
years I will look back and wonder why the hell
I didn't buy one and stash it in a barn somewhere.
390 horses for under $35,000. That's something.
BTW, my '89 SHO had only 220 horses but would
do 0-60 in about six and a half seconds.
Considering I got it for under $4,000, that's
quite a bargain.
Often the mind believes it is thinking, when it is only passing from one metaphor to the next.
That's terrible. You've had a bad run of luck ---
I read somewhere that an aluminum Cobra body is being made in Poland by a former aircraft manufacturing comapny and sold in the US for about $20K. That's too rich for me.....
I have a friend that has a fiberglass Cobra replica with a 2-4bbl. side oiler 427 that keeps eyeing the Delorean; his car has the round tube frame and 10 bolt rear end -- who knows, someday we might make a deal.
(He thinks the Cobra's worth more than I think it's worth!)
"De Oppresso Liber"
Often the mind believes it is thinking, when it is only passing from one metaphor to the next.
My friend's Cobra replica has a Kevlar fiberglass body, and still has a few stress cracks in it after 10K miles. Of course, he drives the hell out of it! 60K is a lot of money for a repro, but I learned a long time ago that people will buy and pay for anything, unless it's something I have for sale!
I saw a 1985 Autocraft MarkIV Cobra in Dallas with the 5.0 MPFI last week, car has less than 5K miles on it, and is absolutely pristine. They're asking $50K, and I'll bet someone will buy it. The stock market hoppers are running up the prices on just about all collector cars. I saw the same thing happen in 1988, after black Monday, and it appears like it's happening again. I sold a '57 "E" bird (factory 2-4's, 285HP) in 1989 for the unheard price of $33,500.00 - the buyer kept it 2 weeks and sold it for $40K!
"De Oppresso Liber"
one thing HP in the old days meant something......it meant that there was some torque being made:-)not like now a days when an engine is rated high HP just because of very high rpm. old engines.. big blocks didnt have to be wraped up to 6000 rpm to make HP like theses little engine nowadays do! i used to drive a car that had a 455 cid engine in it ...you could powerbrake it untill the tires burned down to the rims, like to see one of theses little teeny weeny engines do that:-)ITS all about torque in my book.
doc