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Letting slide go foward on an empty chamber?

PupPup Member Posts: 217 ✭✭✭
edited April 2002 in General Discussion
Last week was our last pistol league shoot, and a member of the opposing team had a beautiful Les Baer 1911 with all the goodies. I asked if I could hold/look at it and he said sure. He locked the slide back and handed me the gun. He said I could dry fire it once if I wanted to, so I hit the slide release and let it go. You would have thought I'd dropped it by the look on his face. He said in rather pleasant terms that you should NEVER let a slide return on it's own on an empty chamber, no matter what kind of firearm. I've been around guns for 30 years and never felt like such an idiot. Is the thinking behind this have to do with tolerances being loosened by allowing the slide excessive vibration when it hits home? I've never heard of this being a problem, and until now nobody has mentioned this to me. After a while I realised that on a hand fitted piece like a LB there'd probably be more concern with the tightness of the fit than with say a Ruger where the tolerences aren't as exact. Any thoughts? Did I commit a severe blunder here?
Politicians, like diapers, should be changed often and for the same reason.
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  • njretcopnjretcop Member Posts: 7,975
    edited November -1
    Good reason why I don't handle anybody else's guns. Guy sounds like jerk to me. Wonder if he's ever been to a gun factory where the slide is allowed to open and close hundreds of times on a test machine.-Charlie
    It's the stuff dreams are made of AngelNRA Certified Firearms InstructorMember: GOA, RKBA, NJSPBA, NJ area rep for the 2ndAMPD. njretcop@copmail.com
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  • BoltactionManBoltactionMan Member Posts: 2,048 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    No mechanical or engineering wizard, but it seems to me the act of the explosive effect of burning powder pops that slide a little harder than the spring can bring it forward. With or without chambering a round.KC
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  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I did that to a guy's shiney (nickel or stainless?) old Browning Hi-Power one time and he looked uncomfortable as heck, but said nothing. I took the hint and try to remember not to do it to other people's hardware, but I agree that it's likely more of an etiquette thing than a real concern.
    "The 2nd Amendment is about security, not hunting. Long live the gun shows, and reasonable access to FFLs. Join the NRA -- I'm a Life Member."
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  • JudgeColtJudgeColt Member Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    This action is equivalent to snapping the cylinder shut on a revolver like you see done in the movies. It is bad form to do anything forceful with someone else's gun. It is NOT the same as firing because the chambering of the round cushions (to a small degree that I doubt is measurable) the stop of the slide. I do not think there is any significant additional wear on the pistol from doing this, but it is just like slamming car and house doors. It is usually unnecessary and upsets most people. I have done it with my guns, but I do not do it with the guns of someone else. I treat them like they are made of egg shells. Common courtesy dictates that way of handling someone else's property.
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  • RugerNinerRugerNiner Member Posts: 12,636 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I don't believe the slide shooting forward in the manner you described is any different than firing the gun. When fired the slide has to come all the way back, even as far as to slam into the back of the pistol. There of course is no resistance when the slide shoots forward after ejecting the fired round. Stop beating yourself up over this and sleep well. ........................... I just checked my Ruger P-85 with the slide open and the difference between that and the travel to the the back of the pistol is another 3/4" of an inch. So if anything it slams forward with less force than firing the gun.
    Remember...Terrorist are attacking Civilians; Not the Government. Protect Yourself![This message has been edited by RugerNiner (edited 04-04-2002).]
    Keep your Powder dry and your Musket well oiled.
    NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
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  • Gordian BladeGordian Blade Member Posts: 1,202 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    If I ever get a Les Baer, nobody touches it except me or my wife, and she'd better ask real nice!
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  • S&W ManS&W Man Member Posts: 208 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Judge - There IS a difference between the flipping of a revolver to close the cylinder and letting the slide go forward on an empty chamber. The slide is made to do that action. It will take it as the gun manfacturer know as that is a test they perfor when they are made. Also how do you normally let the action close when done shooting them and putting them up empty? Very few let the slide close slowly with their hand most just let is close by the spring. With a revolver, flipping the cylinder closed instead or pushing it closed can actualluy twist the mechanism that the cylinder is mounted on and rotates on. It can cause misalingment problems. A revolver cylinder shound NEVER be fliped shut. It is even more intelligent to shoot your autoloader held sideways than flip a relover shut, and frankly shooting an autoloader on its side, unless an absloute necessity due to some emergency, is a REAL stupid thing to do.
    The second admendment GUARANTEES the other nine and the Constitution!
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  • Big Sky RedneckBig Sky Redneck Member Posts: 19,752 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    S&W, don't tell the Homies thats bad, hopefully the guns blow up in their faces!
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  • Evil ATFEvil ATF Member Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'm no gunsmith, but I will add that in the owner's manual for my SA 1911 it specifically says not to drop the slide on an empty chamber or you could damage the action.Hope this helps.
    Stand And Be Counted
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  • Jody CommanderJody Commander Member Posts: 855 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Beats the hell out of the top of the sear if the trigger is not "Death gripped" If I pay what L.Baer charges for A pistol and some jerk drops the slide on it, I'm going to be pissed too.
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  • davem3davem3 Member Posts: 75 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Instructions that came with my "Big Deuce" read: "NEVER drop the slide on an empty chamber unless there is a loaded magazine in place. Dropping or slamming the slide on an empty pistol may seem cool,but it will damage your pistol." I guess stripping and chambering a round slows it down and reduces the metal to metal impact.
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  • LowriderLowrider Member Posts: 6,587
    edited November -1
    You learn something new every day.What? Read the owner's manual? You've got to be kidding.
    Lord Lowrider the LoquaciousMember:Secret Select Society of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets She was only a fisherman's daughter,But when she saw my rod she reeled.
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  • JudgeColtJudgeColt Member Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    S&W man, I never meant to imply that snapping a cylinder shut and dropping the slide on an autoloader were mechanically equivalent. I agree that the potential damage is a lot greater on the revolver than on the autoloader. What I was trying to say, and did not state clearly, was that it is equally impolite with someone else's gun. Slamming bolts closed, snapping cylinders shut or open, snapping triggers, spinning cylinders, etc. are all impolite things to do to someone else's gun, and some of these actions can cause damage or undue wear. As I said, I treat the guns of others like they are made out of egg shell and I do nothing violent with them. I expect the same when someone handles my guns.
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  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Wow. After reading this thread I feel like a complete idiot. I have never read in any owner's manual that you should not let a snap foward on an empty chamber. Now I am beginning to wonder at how many people I've ticked off over the years. Would this apply to semi-auto rifles as well?
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  • S&W ManS&W Man Member Posts: 208 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Judge - I see where you are. I developed a policy of when I handle someone else's gun, I make sure to give it back to them open and let THEM close it, If I close it to look at it I treat it gingerly, like a baby and no one has ANY doubt or question of how I handled it.
    The second admendment GUARANTEES the other nine and the Constitution!
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  • BoomerangBoomerang Member Posts: 4,513
    edited November -1
    I have not allowed a slide to slam forward on an empty chamber on any of my autos for at least 8 years now. I too used to do it until I was told by people more in the know, not to. I now have solved the problem by telling others not to do that before handing them any of my guns. I then proceed to explain the reasoning behind it. Most all of my fellow shooters have been appreciative as they were unaware of the potential to damage their own guns as well by allowing the slide to slam forward.BTW, this fact is noted in all Kimber manuals as well. Lastly, I do not know why it is that some shooters think they know everything there is to know about firearms. When they find out they don't, it is like you just slapped their "moma". I for one am always willing to learn.Boomer, always open to new info
    Protect our Constitutional Rights.
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  • JudgeColtJudgeColt Member Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Dr. Pig, the difference between a slide dropping on an empty chamber and when in a firing mode is that the handling of the cartridge has an effect (perhaps small, but there) on the dynamics of the slide movement. I can tell the difference in the feel when dropping the slide on an empty chamber and dropping the slide on a loaded magazine. The shock is a LOT greater with the empty chamber. The Government Model is not fragile, but, like slamming a car door, I see no reason to add that extra stress when it is not necessary.I am curious, how do you "break in" a slide on a Government Model?
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  • BoomerangBoomerang Member Posts: 4,513
    edited November -1
    Agree with JC. Why put added stress on the frame when it can be avoided. Also, it has more to do with the repetition of this act than just an occassional slamming on an empty chamber. I have seen some fellows slamming the slides over and over, just because it looks cool. Go figure!It is my understanding that this applies more to Match tuned guns than it does to non-Match guns. Second it has a more detrimental impact on polymer and alloy frame guns than it does to steel frame guns.Boomer
    Protect our Constitutional Rights.
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  • JudgeColtJudgeColt Member Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have been focusing on the increased stress on the slide and frame, but have been ignoring the effect on the sear and hammer. The extra shock of the slide falling on an empty chamber will probably cause the hammer to bounce and that may eventually cause damage to the sear and hammer notch. That is probably why the target gun manuals mentioned recommend that the practice not be done.
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  • badboybobbadboybob Member Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Well ya'll made me a believer. I promise to sin no more. (well, not very much).
    PC=BS
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  • BullzeyeBullzeye Member Posts: 3,560
    edited November -1
    Sounds like this guy's got sharing problems.Sounds like a little kid who just got a shiney new toy for Christmas. "Dont touch it!!! You'll brrrreak it!"I like guns that'll take the roughest treatment myself or nature can think up and still keep truckin'.Like Saxon said, if a firearm's gonna be severely damaged by some very slightly rough handling, I sure as hell dont want it.And when you squeal and wring your hands when someone dares to test the action on your brand new super-duper worth-more-than-your-firstborn gun, you ought to just dig a hole and bury it.After all, what the hell good is it if you cant really use it?
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  • PupPup Member Posts: 217 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Well I reckon I can count myself as more informed now than before, even with the "jerk" reference thrown in for comic relief I guess you can teach a middle aged dog new tricks. And I promise from now on to abstain from mindlessly abusing any auto pistol or rifle.
    Politicians, like diapers, should be changed often and for the same reason.
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  • k.stanonikk.stanonik Member Posts: 2,109 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    i just looked in the owners manual for my Hi-Powers and they say to let the slide go forward on the spring tension. Guess they have faith in their product
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  • instrumentofwarinstrumentofwar Member Posts: 1,545 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'm guessing not too many here have ever cleared their weapon on return to your base camp, or entering certain buildings in a forward deployed area?Not sure how many people have handled my M-4 before me but the combination of dry fire drills and releasing the bolt on an empty chamber hasn't seemed to affect her. Don't get me wrong I don't dry fire my pow's but she's taken this and the everyday abuse like a champ.
    Some people just shouldn't be allowed to breed
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  • JudgeColtJudgeColt Member Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Certainly the M1911 is not fragile. The issue is whether this is action is preferable to another way of closing the slide on an empty chamber. I do not believe it is, but each may do as he or she desires with his or her own gun. I do not think you shoud do as you please with someone else's gun. When the target gun makers mentioned above say in their instructions not to drop the slide on a empty chamber, I am willing to accept that there is a valid reason. I think it probably has to do with the more delicate (Almost like the petals of a flower? Well, maybe not that delicate.) engagement surfaces on a finely tuned target trigger. There is also the possibility (which I have seen) that the sear bounce from the closing slide will cause the hammer to follow, and be caught by the half cock notch, which can possibly damage the finely honed target sear from the impact when suddenly stopped. That is why many target shooters with minimum sear engagement triggers hold the triggers back on their M1911 target pistols when chambering a round. The disconnector will hold the sear in positive engagement and prevent hammer follow. I am curious about the High Power factory instruction on this issue. Does the instruction perhaps refer to chambering the first round, rather than closing the slide on an empty chamber? It is good practice to let the slide go forcefully when chambering a round, and releasing the slide from full rear position give the most secure chambering action. As far as the M4, the design is so much different that I do not believe the same issues arise. While one could use the charging handle to ease the bolt carrier forward, I know that is not common practice. I believe using the bolt release on the M16 and successors is the accepted way of closing the bolt on a empty chamber.As far as the owner of the pistol who objected to dropping the slide, I think that is his or her right to object, and it does not indicate a childish selfishness to me. When handling other people's property, one should be very careful and gentle, no matter what kind of property is involved.The average pistol is not so delicate as to be damaged by dropping the slide on an empty chamber. No need to bury any pistols for being too fragile. The issue is whether there is a better way to do it. I think there is, and common courtesy dictates that we handle someone else's property in the most careful way possible. [This message has been edited by JudgeColt (edited 04-06-2002).]
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  • k.stanonikk.stanonik Member Posts: 2,109 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    On the brownings it was after cleaning on a empty chamber
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  • PupPup Member Posts: 217 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    JudgeColt....I agree with the common courtsey issue. I would hope we all do. When I dropped the slide I didn't do it out of disrespect for another's property. It's the way I've done it on every auto firearm I've ever handled and the gentleman was the first to point out why he preferred not to have that happen. I'd never intentionally do something to damage somebody's property, least of all a gun. Whether or not any and all guns can "take it" doesn't matter. What does matter is that now I can add one more piece of info on gun handling that I didn't know before.
    Politicians, like diapers, should be changed often and for the same reason.
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  • JudgeColtJudgeColt Member Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Not that I did not believe k.stanonik, but I wanted to see the context of the instruction mentioned. Since the only High Power I have is a Pre-War commercial FN for which I do not have the manual, I went to fnhipower.com and that site has a scan of a 1969 Browning HP manual posted. Sure enough, on Page 6 is the reassembly instruction stating that after replacing the slide stop (at this point the slide is being held rearward against spring tension by the safety lever projection going up into a notch in the slide), the handler should: "Lower thumb safety; this releases the slide which is forced forward by the recoil spring." (puncuation as in original)So 33 years ago, slide dropping on an empty chamber was "factory-authorized" for the HP. Those Browning people and their pistols are TOUGH! No flower petal pansies there! I am not so tough and still would not do it to my gun or anyone else's, but others may do so with the factory's blessing, if not every owner's blessing. I wonder if that instruction is still in current manuals? Anyone have one handy to check?Now I am going to search out a manual for a Government Model and see what it says about this issue. Anyone have one handy to check?
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  • RembrandtRembrandt Member Posts: 4,486 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Judge,I just looked in a High Power manual from one I bought last year....(Line 5, page 13 under Reassembly) "Release the slide--Grasp the slide and push rearward slightly. Lower the thumb safety and allow the slide to move forward under spring tension" Those High Powers sure are built tough![This message has been edited by Rembrandt (edited 04-07-2002).]
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  • Evil ATFEvil ATF Member Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    After all, what the hell good is it if you cant really use it?Bullz:You're a friggin' nut, dude. Just because a gun (My carry gun, by the way. Not some hyped-up match monster.) has had a trigger job, doesn't mean you can't use it. It means you can't abuse it. I have no problem with keeping the slide back until I've got a loaded mag in the well. It doesn't affect me, because my 1911 is never unloaded, unless it's being cleaned. In that case, I simply ease the slide forward instead of dropping the slide release. Which is good practice anyhow, since some firearms, Glocks in particular, can have their slide releases wear down pretty easily. Pull back, let go. Try not to use the slide release to drop the slide. One of these days it will get worn enough to where your slide won't lock back when the weapon is empty, probably at a real bad time.Long story short, just because a firearm has to be treated in a certain manner doesn't make it weak or fragile. Sheesh....kids.
    Stand And Be Counted
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  • k.stanonikk.stanonik Member Posts: 2,109 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hey Judge Colt, want a current manual, i have a extra if you want it. contacted Browning and they sent me 2 , and all i needed was one for the 40 cal already had one for my 9 mm.
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  • Jody CommanderJody Commander Member Posts: 855 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    If You think the guy with the Les Baer was pissed, go to a high power rifle match sometime and pick up one of the competitors match M1 Garands by the front hand guard while it is still warm from shooting, but You better be ready to fight. I don't think anyone can claim the Garand is A "*"Gun, but He has had it glassed and fitted to the rifle and it cost Him big bucks, so when You pick it up and pop the epoxy bond, He ain't gonna be happy.
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  • JudgeColtJudgeColt Member Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thank you K.stanonik for the generous offer. I have no current HP and do not need the manual to help operate my Pre-War HP, so I would just be adding to my paper collection. I collect anything paper such as catalogs, manuals, parts lists, etc. and would never turn down another piece of any kind. If you want to get rid of it, please contact me at judgecolt45@hotmail.com to discuss arrangements. As I write, I am at my office where I have stored many gun boxes and the like. The box for the last Government Model I bought new (one of the first stainless GMs when they finally came out in 1984 - everytime I look at this beautiful ALL STEEL [no plastic parts] pistol, I get sad for what happened to Colt) is stored here, and the manual is still in the box. I have now checked it for instruction on "dropping the slide."Maybe we Colt owners are not the delicate flower petals I thought. (I am speaking only for myself here, those who wish to remain as delicate flower petals may do so.) The manual for my SS GM is copyrighted 1984 and, on Page 22, has the following slightly vague statement regarding clearing the pistol:5. Keep pistol pointing in a safe direction, allow slide to return forward on empty chamber and squeeze trigger to allow hammer to fall forward. (If slide is held to rear by the slide stop, pull slide back slightly, then release it.)Now "...allow slide to return..." could be argued to mean control it as it goes forward, but "...pull back slightly, then release it..." certainly implies LETTING THE SLIDE SLAM, CRASH, IMPACT, POUND FORWARD ON AN EMPTY CHAMBER! While that is probably not exactly the same dynamics as releasing the slide by depressing the slide stop, it is close enough for government work (pun intended)!I feel liberated. While I had to admit that the "delicate petals of a flower" description was appropriate for the way I treat my guns, I really did not want it to be my official designation, or that of my guns. Now I can act like I handle my guns roughly because the factory says they can take it. I now feel as tough as High Power owners. But I still would not drop the slide on my gun or someone else's. I also now know I should not pick up a hot M1 target rifle by the handguard either. Thanks for that tip. That warning does not seem as intuitive as dropping the slide to me, and I might have done it sometime and been in trouble.This has been an interesting topic to debate. It points out the vast (sometimes half-vast) differences in the viewpoints of members of the "gun culture" on many issues.[This message has been edited by JudgeColt (edited 04-07-2002).]
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  • v35v35 Member Posts: 12,710 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    What a super crock of SXXT these slide dropping precautions are.The proper way to check for proper sear/sear spring/disconnector function is to slam the slide repeatedly with the trigger depressed.If the hammer is jarred off and falls to half cock you have an unsafe gun. This should be done periodically especially on a defensiveweapon having a light trigger pull.
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  • jonkjonk Member Posts: 10,121
    edited November -1
    Somethin precision made like a 1911 I see how that is good advice. On the other hand, I doubt you could hurt an SKS by allowing it to slam foward.
    "...hit your enemy in the belly, and kick him when he is down, and boil his prisoners in oil- if you take any- and torture his women and children. Then people will keep clear of you..." -Admiral of the Fleet Lord Fisher, speaking at the Hague Peace Conference in 1899.
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  • Big Sky RedneckBig Sky Redneck Member Posts: 19,752 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have a generic 1911 I carry, it's a Llama Mini Max .40. This poor this has been abused, dropped, kicked, flopped around on the floor of the pickup, dry fired, slammed shut on an empty chamber, never cleaned since I bought it new 7 or 8 years ago and even has some rust on it. It has never missfired, never AD'd, still hits what I'm shooting at(within reason). I have shot hot loads thru it, I have shot this thing as fast as I could untill it stovepiped, cleared it and did it again. In other words I have totally ABUSED this thing, I show it no special pampering and it is still dependable. I can hit pop cans all day with it at 10 yds and I would bet my life on it. No it isnt a target pistol, what I call it is my "utility gun", been thru hell and keeps on shooting. Now, if I can do that with a generic cheap Llama, what could I do with a REAL 1911? Run it over with the truck and see if it still works? BTW, I would love to see a Glock take the torture I put this cheap thing thru!
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  • JudgeColtJudgeColt Member Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Again, I wonder if some of us are not missing the point. While many guns can take all kinds of abuse, I see no reason to do it just because they will. I can put dents in my car and it still runs fine, but I do not do it just becasue it will take it. When driving and approaching a pothole, I try to miss it even though my vehicle can "take it" if I choose to hit the pothole. Why add stress by choice when there is so much stress to be added without choice? While dropping the slide will indeed test the fire control system as described, how often does one need to test it? Again, the fact that something will "take it" repeatedly does not mean it should have to.While many of my guns are indeed collector's items, I shoot most of them, but carefully. However, I am most careful of those on which I depend for protection. They are user guns and usually show the cosmetic effects of years of carry and use, but I see no reason to treat them differently (rougher) just because they look worn. Dr. Pig, apparently I have misunderstood your signature line. I assumed you are a collector when you mention a retirement home for old revolvers. Apparently they are not retired at all, but treated like slaves and are forced to perfrom their master's wishes with no regard for their feelings! Just kidding. To each his or her own. I must confess that all this slide-dropping discussion has caused me to try it. Early Sunday morning in the dark of night, at the exact time when the clocks jumped an hour for daylight savings time, in that instant lost hour, behind closed doors and out of sight and hearing of everyone, I took a Pre-War National Match .45 and dropped the slide on an empty chamber just to see what it felt like. Wow, what a rush! The sound! The fury! I can see that it could become addictive. After I calmed down and my hands quit shaking, I put the pistol away and vowed never to venture so close to the flame again. I envy you daredevils who can do it time after time and never be consumed by the flame. Just thinking about it, I have to take a break.
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  • Miss. CreantMiss. Creant Member Posts: 300 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    It only hurts a 1911 to drop the slide on an empty chamber if your finger is in the way.OUCH
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  • BoomerangBoomerang Member Posts: 4,513
    edited November -1
    I think I have this solved fellows. Let's just agree to disagree on this issue. Personally, I could care less what anyone does to their own weapon, that is unless I was thinking about buying it from them. I would have to say I side more with JudgeColt on this issue, specifically because I buy collectables and Match Tuned 1911's. Now having said that, I also agree with Saxon Pig on the handling of "service piece" quality weapons, they should be able to take that abuse/wear and more. Still, even with those weapons, I would not make a habit of doing it if it was not absolutely "necessary". As I said before, an occasional slamming on an empty chamber should not hurt one. My advice to anyone that wants to take it is to not make it a standard practice; especially, on collectables and match tuned 1911s like my Wilsons and Kimber Super Match 1911s. I don't know about you fellows but it takes me a while to save up for them.Boomer
    Protect our Constitutional Rights.[This message has been edited by Boomerang (edited 04-09-2002).]
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  • v35v35 Member Posts: 12,710 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have to moderate my statement a little. While you're not likely to duplicate the forces and impacts of shooting that are acting on any part of the 1911 by dropping the slide,if you use the slidestop,you can rub off the finish on the slidestop notch and slidestop. This can be important in preserving the NIB appearance for shopkeepers and collectors, otherwise you're just blowing smoke rings thinking any harm is being done to a shooting gun, target or otherwise.
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