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Dealers refusing to sell to C&R FFLs
bbard
Member Posts: 17 ✭✭
Dealers who won't accept C&R licenses often say that they're being extra cautious. That brings two thoughts to mind,
First, if you're that worried then why sell guns in the first place? Selling a qualified firearm to a qualified C&R holder is just as legal as anything else you sell, barring any strange local laws (which you should mention if they exist).
Second, do you enjoy ever increasing gun laws and restrictions? If not, why would you add more unnecessary restrictions on legal purchases?
There's a third thing, are licensed dealers trying to protect a source of income (transfer fees) for all dealers? Does it come down to money? Things often do. [:0]
First, if you're that worried then why sell guns in the first place? Selling a qualified firearm to a qualified C&R holder is just as legal as anything else you sell, barring any strange local laws (which you should mention if they exist).
Second, do you enjoy ever increasing gun laws and restrictions? If not, why would you add more unnecessary restrictions on legal purchases?
There's a third thing, are licensed dealers trying to protect a source of income (transfer fees) for all dealers? Does it come down to money? Things often do. [:0]
Comments
IBTL
yawn...
Are you a dealer KEVD18?
Wrong place to complain. They can do business how they want and you can choose not to do business with them.
IBTL
General Discussion: Exchange messages with other users about virtually any other topic of interest.
Right place to complain/discuss.
quote:Originally posted by calrugerfan
Wrong place to complain. They can do business how they want and you can choose not to do business with them.
IBTL
General Discussion: Exchange messages with other users about virtually any other topic of interest.
Right place to complain/discuss.
Read the posting guidelines. Complaints about auctions or sellers is not allowed. Trust me. Wrong place to complain. You are just wasting your breath here.
Do a search, this topic has been hashed and rehashed many times. It is the dealers choice, if you don't like his rules, don't bid, you are not going to change anyones mind.
I think it's worth discussing as much as possible, saturation is the key, and I don't bid. If more folks avoid these auctions then dealers may start to think about it.
"Other stuff we automatically delete:
Complaints or criticism about GunBroker.com, its staff, its policies, or any buyer or seller on that site. If you have a problem with an auction transaction use the auction feedback system and/or contact tech support."
Color added.
You are off to a good start here.
quote:Originally posted by bbard
quote:Originally posted by calrugerfan
Wrong place to complain. They can do business how they want and you can choose not to do business with them.
IBTL
General Discussion: Exchange messages with other users about virtually any other topic of interest.
Right place to complain/discuss.
Read the posting guidelines. Complaints about auctions or sellers is not allowed. Trust me. Wrong place to complain. You are just wasting your breath here.
I'm not singling out AN auction or A seller. This is just a topic for discussion.
quote:Originally posted by KEVD18
yawn...
Are you a dealer KEVD18?
i am not.
what i am is tired of new posters who come here and within 5 posts of being a member(frequently their first post) * and moan about something that not only can we do nothing about, but has been beaten to death and driven into the ground so many times we long time members can recite this argument in our sleep.
try the search feature. this has been done.
and why dont you try introducing yourself before you come into our house and start whining like a kid who dropped his ice cream cone.
The C&R issue has been done to death, and there is nothing that any of us can do to fix it universally. As FFL holders individually, we can support our "Cruffler" brethren as best we can. I do, and so state in any of my C&R eligible auctions.
come here and complain/discus or whatever your spin is, you may as well put on a sandwich board and go down to you nearest corner and do the same
quote:Originally posted by bbard
quote:Originally posted by KEVD18
yawn...
Are you a dealer KEVD18?
i am not.
what i am is tired of new posters who come here and within 5 posts of being a member(frequently their first post) * and moan about something that not only can we do nothing about, but has been beaten to death and driven into the ground so many times we long time members can recite this argument in our sleep.
try the search feature. this has been done.
and why dont you try introducing yourself before you come into our house and start whining like a kid who dropped his ice cream cone.
hell kevin I kind of like him, must be that whiny nasal voice he has when he complains............... don't think I could get used to it though.
FFL & C&R copies can be altered or forged easily. A dealer can check the validity of an FFL through EZCheck on the ATF site. C&Rs can not be verified.
Sure they can. It just takes a toll-free phone call: 1-866-662-2750
quote:Originally posted by capgun
FFL & C&R copies can be altered or forged easily. A dealer can check the validity of an FFL through EZCheck on the ATF site. C&Rs can not be verified.
Sure they can. It just takes a toll-free phone call: 1-866-662-2750
I will try that again. When I contacted ATF I was told that because C&Rs were not dealers but private parties the information was confidential because of privacy matters and that is why C&Rs are not on EZCheck.
Agreed, capgun, but if the copy looks good, and it is in my files, and referenced in my bound book, my butt is covered. I made a good faith effort; it's not my fault that I can't check a Type 03 on the FFL EZ Check. BATF needs to fix that.
Some dealers do not want to just "cover their butt", they want to make certain their firearm goes to a legitimate dealer not a criminal enterprise.
There is no accounting for boneheadedness.
I don't agree with the "privacy" issue, reportedly referenced by the BATF. A C&R holder has applied for, and received, a Federal Firearms License. A license to collect, to be sure, but still a government issued license. The license holder must keep records and is subject to inspection. IMNSHO, that license is a matter of public record, and should be searchable on the EZ Check.
I guess I'm with bbard on this one. I generally try to avoid folks that make things more difficult for me.
When ATF EZ-Check was initially released to production, you could verify a C&R. A few weeks later, ATF said that, due to complaints, they were disabling that feature. (When did they ever make a change in response to complaints?)
Yes, theoretically, someone could alter a C&R & use it to buy a gun. And, theoretically, a black hole in space could swallow an airliner. In both cases, it's never happened. If the fellas with the bulges in the cheap suits aren't worried about it, why should we?
In any case, it's better to light a candle than to curse the darkness. I submitted an issue to GB Support, & my suggestion was accepted:
3/27/2014 10:37:16 AM
GBSupport1015 Thank you for contacting us, that is on the list for a future upgrade.
3/26/2014 10:52:40 AM
Just a suggestion: Please change the FFL REQUIRED field. Currently the only choices are YES or NO; could you change the choices to YES or NO or FFL/C&R? This would remind sellers of C&R's to indicate whether or not they are willing to accept a C&R for an item.
You're welcome.
Neal
Then, I would like to review that list and see how many of those firearms are guns commonly sought by criminals for "criminal enterprise." I figure the number would be close to zero.
No one is going to spend $1,000 or more for a Garand or a collectible Winchester or Mauser and use it for a drive-by shooting.
I know. Some dealers believe they must have a FFL copy signed in blue ink. Not red, not black, but blue, and they believe that this is a law.
There is no accounting for boneheadedness.
I don't agree with the "privacy" issue, reportedly referenced by the BATF. A C&R holder has applied for, and received, a Federal Firearms License. A license to collect, to be sure, but still a government issued license. The license holder must keep records and is subject to inspection. IMNSHO, that license is a matter of public record, and should be searchable on the EZ Check.
Not to complain, but two points:
I have bought from dealers who insist on a signed copy of an FFL. 01 or 03. They refuse to accept an emailed or faxed copy. As a buyer, most sellers state up front of any special requirements such as FFL must be verified first or signed copy. Yet some do not and the buyer finds out after the sale.
Second, SPIDER is correct. C&Rs can be checked and verified by contacting the ATF thru toll free number and other sources.
I would like to see some statistics demonstrating the 10 firearms most likely to be transferred to a Type 03 license. Maybe even the top 100.
Then, I would like to review that list and see how many of those firearms are guns commonly sought by criminals for "criminal enterprise." I figure the number would be close to zero.
No one is going to spend $1,000 or more for a Garand or a collectible Winchester or Mauser and use it for a drive-by shooting.
Very naive of you. There are a great many semi auto rifles like SKSs and M1 Carbines, very efficient semi auto pistols, and excellent high power military rifles that are C&Rs and very affordable and deadly in the hands of criminals. The Glocks, Sigs, Brownings, etc. that criminals use are not cheap.
I would like to see some statistics demonstrating the 10 firearms most likely to be transferred to a Type 03 license. Maybe even the top 100.
Then, I would like to review that list and see how many of those firearms are guns commonly sought by criminals for "criminal enterprise." I figure the number would be close to zero.
No one is going to spend $1,000 or more for a Garand or a collectible Winchester or Mauser and use it for a drive-by shooting.
David - How many times must you be told not to interject common sense into a discussion? [:0][:o)]
quote:Right place to complain/discuss.
...FYI...No, no its not. Complaints about sellers will get the topic locked or it will just go "poof".
The forums is NOT the place to debate ANY auction side problems...two DIFFERENT/SEPERATE venues.
This is kinda a middle of the fence topic, which as others have said has been beat to death.
IF an FFL doesnt accept a C&R for a C&R gun, move along to one who will, easy...[;)]
"Yes, theoretically, someone could alter a C&R & use it to buy a gun. And, theoretically, a black hole in space could swallow an airliner. In both cases, it's never happened" There are so many false statements being made in this thread it is difficult to address them all. I know of cases of altered C&Rs, and AFT agents have told me of others.
If you can alter a 03, you can alter an 01. Forgery as well as counterfeiting is not uncommon in todays era of megapixel multicolor printing. If I were a dealer and uncertain, I could simply call and verify.
That's a change...
quote:Originally posted by KEVD18
quote:Originally posted by bbard
quote:Originally posted by KEVD18
yawn...
Are you a dealer KEVD18?
i am not.
what i am is tired of new posters who come here and within 5 posts of being a member(frequently their first post) * and moan about something that not only can we do nothing about, but has been beaten to death and driven into the ground so many times we long time members can recite this argument in our sleep.
try the search feature. this has been done.
and why dont you try introducing yourself before you come into our house and start whining like a kid who dropped his ice cream cone.
hell kevin I kind of like him, must be that whiny nasal voice he has when he complains............... don't think I could get used to it though.
Some dealers are too strict about selling to C&R holders. Some refuse to do so at all. many misunderstand C&R and what is qualified. Some states restrict C&R buying and this concerns some sellers who are nervous about drawing the attention of the ATF. I can appreciate that fear. If they are trying to protect their own interests, hey, who doesn't do that?
Bottom line. You have two options.
Only buy from sellers who deal to C&R holders.
Or...
Find a transfer dealer for those times when you want something and the seller won't deal with you.
Complaining won't help or change anything. Discussing it further also won't help or change anything. Bickering over forum posting never helps anything.
Too old to live...too young to die...
quote:Originally posted by hillbille
quote:Originally posted by KEVD18
quote:Originally posted by bbard
quote:Originally posted by KEVD18
yawn...
Are you a dealer KEVD18?
i am not.
what i am is tired of new posters who come here and within 5 posts of being a member(frequently their first post) * and moan about something that not only can we do nothing about, but has been beaten to death and driven into the ground so many times we long time members can recite this argument in our sleep.
try the search feature. this has been done.
and why dont you try introducing yourself before you come into our house and start whining like a kid who dropped his ice cream cone.
hell kevin I kind of like him, must be that whiny nasal voice he has when he complains............... don't think I could get used to it though.
No need for the personal attacks when you never met me or heard my voice. I've been an active member of this auction site for 20 years plus or minus. This is my house too.
bbard- The vast majority of members here agree with your complaint. But it has been discussed to death and there will never be a satisfactory resolution to the problem no matter how much we talk about it.
Some dealers are too strict about selling to C&R holders. Some refuse to do so at all. many misunderstand C&R and what is qualified. Some states restrict C&R buying and this concerns some sellers who are nervous about drawing the attention of the ATF. I can appreciate that fear. If they are trying to protect their own interests, hey, who doesn't do that?
Bottom line. You have two options.
Only buy from sellers who deal to C&R holders.
Or...
Find a transfer dealer for those times when you want something and the seller won't deal with you.
Complaining won't help or change anything. Discussing it further also won't help or change anything. Bickering over forum posting never helps anything.
I disagree. That's like saying it doesn't help to complain about politicians. If all CR holders boycott all dealers who don't sell to CR holders it might make a difference.
quote:Originally posted by capgun
"Yes, theoretically, someone could alter a C&R & use it to buy a gun. And, theoretically, a black hole in space could swallow an airliner. In both cases, it's never happened" There are so many false statements being made in this thread it is difficult to address them all. I know of cases of altered C&Rs, and AFT agents have told me of others.
If you can alter a 03, you can alter an 01. Forgery as well as counterfeiting is not uncommon in todays era of megapixel multicolor printing. If I were a dealer and uncertain, I could simply call and verify.
Both can and are forged and altered. I have not been able to confirm a C&R by phone, I do not see where ATF offers that option on their website. If possible by phone it still could not be done on a weekend at a gun show or by a dealer at his shop on the weekend. 01s can be checked anytime on the computer. I am just offering that as a reason some 01s will not accept a 03. One more reason. 01s can not mail a handgun to an 03, they have to use common carrier and ship next day air. That may not fit the shipping procedure they are set up for.
Like has already been mentioned, no crook is going to go to the trouble of buying a high-dollar collectible Mauser to use to rob a bank.
As a matter of fact, no crook is going to draw attention to himself by trying to use forged documents to obtain weapons at all. He'll simply steal what he wants or buy it from another crook who did so.
It makes about as much sense as the nonsensical "gun show loophole" argument. No "terrorist" is going to go to a gun show in the US and buy a semi-auto AK-47 for $1200 when he can walk down the street in his home town and swap a couple of chickens for a full-auto one.