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There are SEVERAL problems that you need to keep in mind. Even if this all passes and you get to keep the gun....if it is reported stolen....and it ever ends up being ran you can loose it. You need to find out if it is stolen.
This is NOT a high dollar item....or irreplaceable. Its really not worth the headache or drama of going through all the mess. I would let it go.....IF they are giving you every penny you have invested and you are not going to have to go to any trouble to give it back. Let the officer know he will be required to take posession of the gun...in writing....and be done with it.
I paid $245 for the gun.
We are talking principal here, not money.
I contacted his police department today and he actually is a detective there. They put me through to his voice mail and I left him a message that I wanted the stolen gun report and court date for the person who sold the gun to the gun store.
The detective doesn't know I know that he is not being charged with anything, hence no court date. He just has to give the money to the detective to buy the gun back from for the exact same price I paid for the gun.
The detective got my information from the gun store I bought it from via form 4473.
If this wasn't done properly I could have a case against the gun store owner for voluntarily giving my information out to someone that didn't have a right to it.
Keep your Powder dry and your Musket well oiled.
NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
quote:Originally posted by RugerNiner
I paid $245 for the gun.
We are talking principal here, not money.
I contacted his police department today and he actually is a detective there. They put me through to his voice mail and I left him a message that I wanted the stolen gun report and court date for the person who sold the gun to the gun store.
The detective doesn't know I know that he is not being charged with anything, hence no court date. He just has to give the money to the detective to buy the gun back from for the exact same price I paid for the gun.
The detective got my information from the gun store I bought it from via form 4473.
If this wasn't done properly I could have a case against the gun store owner for voluntarily giving my information out to someone that didn't have a right to it.
The dealer violated your privacy by showing the 4473 to the police without a court order. You have a pretty major civil case against the dealer.
Why would you want to mess with the dealer? He may or may not have made a mistake but he is the one who told you what the real deal is and he is taking it in the shorts same as you.
Do what you think is right, but I wouldn't mess with him.
quote:Originally posted by Rebel_James
quote:Originally posted by whiteclouder
You're dealing with a cop, niner; assume he's crooked, cut your losses, and get on with your life. Reporting this to ANOTHER cop simply compounds your exposure to more of the same.
Clouder..
Glad to see you think all cops are crooked!
I had a case once where a new car dealer reported two cars stolen. When I went to take the cars from the people who had them they had some paperwork showing they'd bought the cars. I took the cars, but put them in the county lot to keep storage from building up, and directed them to talk to a lawyer. The case went to court and they got to keep the cars.
I looked on GB and there are several you could replace it with...they paid the gun store back for the repairs to make it right with them so they might pay you for your dyes.. wash your hands of it get the money and go on ...the principal thats important here is the one where you would like to get a gun back that was sold out from under you especially if its an heirloom and you should treat someone else the way you would hope to be treated [:)]
quote:Originally posted by JamesRK
Why would you want to mess with the dealer? He may or may not have made a mistake but he is the one who told you what the real deal is and he is taking it in the shorts same as you.
Do what you think is right, but I wouldn't mess with him.
I would. Would you be comfortable with your bank telling the locals about YOUR personal information, your sprnding habits, ect, without warrents?
4473 are SUPPOSED to be non public records. No warrent, no need to know info.
I am not a sue happy guy, but I would nail this dealers scrotun to the wall with three 8 penny nails, if it were me.
quote:Originally posted by scottm21166
I looked on GB and there are several you could replace it with...they paid the gun store back for the repairs to make it right with them so they might pay you for your dyes.. wash your hands of it get the money and go on ...the principal thats important here is the one where you would like to get a gun back that was sold out from under you especially if its an heirloom and you should treat someone else the way you would hope to be treated [:)]
Problem IS Scott, it WASN'T stolen. No reports exist for the weapon as "stolen".
About 25 years ago a good friend of mine was owed some money from a guy he had only known for several months.
The guy ended up paying his debt to my friend with several guns. My friend didn't "need" anything he was given but, it was the only way to get his money back from this guy.
My buddy started selling off the guns to recoup the cash. I bought a Rem 700. A week later my friend calls ands asks if I still have the Rem, well sure.
Seems the guy that gave him the guns instead of money, had stolen the guns. Detectives had called my friend and gave him TWO choices, retrieve all the guns or be charged with recieving stolen property; NO offer of ANY cash back to him for the guns, fair enough.
Point is, I'd be gald I was going to get my money back...[;)]
[:D]...idiot who stole the guns CALLED my friend he given the guns to....asking him to BAIL him out of jail!...idiots everywhere...[^]
Very bad timing for this to happen.
The detective wanted to pick up the gun this Wednesday.
Deer season starts this Monday and I had plans on hunting with this gun.
I am going away to the mountains the following Monday.
Keep your Powder dry and your Musket well oiled.
NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
quote:Originally posted by nunn
I believe I would want to see an official police report and a NCIC entry that PRE-DATED my acquisition of said firearm.
Otherwise, bring a court order and a constable to enforce it.
Otherwise, pound sand.
David's given you the best advice. If that 'detective' has anything, he'll be able to do that. If not, POUND SAND sounds good!
quote:You're dealing with a cop, niner; assume he's crooked, cut your losses, and get on with your life. Reporting this to ANOTHER cop simply compounds your exposure to more of the same.
Clouder..
How about if I just ASSUME that all "military, retired" people are crooked too? That would be just as stupid a position as the one you just posited.
quote:Originally posted by nunn
quote:You're dealing with a cop, niner; assume he's crooked, cut your losses, and get on with your life. Reporting this to ANOTHER cop simply compounds your exposure to more of the same.
Clouder..
How about if I just ASSUME that all "military, retired" people are crooked too? That would be just as stupid a position as the one you just posited.
I'd have no problem with that, David, that's your right, and I hope it's based on something more substantial than a bit of spite.
I think the detective is just trying to do a friend a favor by getting his guns back without going through channels.
The original owner probably doesn't want his ex-partner to go to jail.
I believe any theft warrants reprisals. When I worked at a bike shop I made a poster that said "If nobody would buy stolen parts, there would be no reason to steal them".
I can honestly say I have never stole anything in my life. Must be my upbringing.
Keep your Powder dry and your Musket well oiled.
NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
quote:Originally posted by nunn
quote:I'd have no problem with that, David, that's your right, and I hope it's based on something more substantial than a bit of spite.
Clouder..
Only thing is, I am not ignorant and bigoted, so I could never state such a thing.
I've never thought of you as ignorant but I KNOW you're bigoted. Remember, old son, we go back a long long way.
Offer some proof. You KNOW nothing of the kind. You are in Idaho, for cryin' out loud, and I am in Texas. We have never met, and I would just as soon keep it that way.
I have bought three stolen guns that I know of. Two came from a police supply FFL who traded for guns from a police property room. When he received the guns, they had been awarded to the PD and cleared for transfer. After the fact, the agencies involved realized they had made boo-boos.
One gun was a cheap .410 shotgun, and by the time I was notified of the problem, I had already sold it. I suggested to my seller, and he then suggested to the PD, that the PD simply write the original owner a check for the gun. Everyone involved decided that would be more cost effective than paying to ship it back.
The second was a S&W 9mm, and apparently the original owner really wanted it back, because the PD agreed to pay for overnight FedEx shipping. I sent it back and my seller reimbursed me the purchase price.
The third was a Beretta 96 I bought in a bulk purchase from a pawn shop. I sold it to a local man who used the gun for security on loans from pawn shops a few times. The last time he pawned the gun, someone finally checked the numbers and it proved to have been stolen a few months before I bought it. I refunded my customer his money, and collected my money back from the pawnbroker. He was reluctant at first, but after I made a complaint to the Consumer Credit Commission, he paid up.
I have a standing "no stolen gun" guarantee. If you buy a gun from me, and it ends up being seized from you as stolen, and if there is a police report and NCIC entry that pre-dates my acquisition date, I will reimburse you the full purchase price. So far, I have only had to make such a refund once.
quote:Originally posted by RugerNiner
Very bad timing for this to happen.
The detective wanted to pick up the gun this Wednesday.
Deer season starts this Monday and I had plans on hunting with this gun.
I am going away to the mountains the following Monday.
It will be kind of hard for him to come "get" the gun if you are off on a huntin trip.[;)]
Three Points: First, when I was working in small gun shops, similar things happened quite often. In fact, they happened so often that in one instance I quit the shop because it was obvious the owner had become known as the fellow who bought all guns "no questions asked." In another case, the shop owner was burned a couple of times so he hooked with the local police to run all the used guns he took in. Another place got the small town to pass an ordinance that required all used guns taken in by a gun shop to be kept for 30 days and run through the police before payment was made.
Second, in all of the stolen gun cases I've been involved with, the last guy in line took the loss. I've never seen someone compensated for a stolen gun. In fact, when the FBI shows up, they just take it and most of the time don't give you a receipt unless you ask for one. Just try explaining that to the ATF examiner when they audit the books next time. "Oh, that missing gun--the FBI took it! Yea, right!"
Third, yea, it's a matter of principal; the principal is that a guy with a badge is explaining your options to you. All these folks telling you that he's crooked, it smells bad, etc., have probably never been there. I've been there. Just last week a guy with a badge shows up and tells me that he's going to arrest me for attempted murder because I sold a gun to a guy all legal like with the 4473 and everything. Smell bad? Sure. Crooked? Maybe. Could he arrest me and make my life difficult? You bet your sweet .....!! We got it worked out in the within a few hours, but it cost me $400 to my lawyer, the loss of untold sales in the shop and untold stress on me!!!! The moral is, don't be a jerk and make a molehill into a mountain. Do the right thing--give up the gun and take the money.
If he is not a cop and you turn over a firearm to him and he dumps the records, receipts ect you think will be official records then he has the firearm but as far as everyone else is concerned you are still the owner in possesion.
I would tell the "detective" that you will transfer it back to the FFL. The FFL can then transfer it to the original owner via a 4473 and background check.
That way there is a paper trail for all the movements of the firearm.
Payment, would also need to go through the dealer, to you, like a consignment.
Just giving it to this "detective" leaves a gun out there with your name on it, out of your control. Also how do you know this original owner is legally qualified to own a firearm?
The dead giveaway is that no law enforcement agency can directly compensate people when they recover stolen property from them, even if it was purchased unknowingly. They simply seize the item(s), leave you with a receipt and advice on either recouping your money through civil courts or possibly a state victim's compensation fund. They definitely don't hand you what you paid for it when they take it from you.
You have two choices here...
1. Next time the guy calls tell him to cease any contact with you regarding this matter. Over and done with.
2. Contact your local law enforcement agency and set him up for impersonating a peace officer when he shows up to pick the item up. If he turns out to actually be a peace officer of some sort, he can be nailed for what my state refers to as 'Official Oppression'. In this case that basically means forcing action from a person under color of law without offical reason.
This deal more than just smells funny. It's clearly bogus.
quote:Originally posted by drsck
Second, in all of the stolen gun cases I've been involved with, the last guy in line took the loss. I've never seen someone compensated for a stolen gun. In fact, when the FBI shows up, they just take it and most of the time don't give you a receipt unless you ask for one. Just try explaining that to the ATF examiner when they audit the books next time. "Oh, that missing gun--the FBI took it! Yea, right!"
I bought a Luger at a gun show before they had the Kalifornia laws about such things. A few years later I sold it on consignment.
Shortly afterward two cops showed up on my doorstep to inform me the gun was not only stolen but had been used in a shooting.
I remembered I had bought the gun with a check & after a little looking I found it. In the left hand corner the check had a space for a notation & I had written Luger & the serial number.
They took the check & to my surprise I got the money for the gun from the store owner.
That was the last of the good part. The owner died soon after that & I had one heck of a problem getting the rest of my guns back since everything was tied up until his estate was settled.
I agree with the person that said to have the number checked on NCIC. If it comes back stolen, you know what to do, and if it doesn't, then it probably isn't stolen.
Where does this LEO work, and if he isn't in your jurisdiction something is a miss.
He can't even get involved unless the gun was reported stolen, and is recorded in NCIC as such. This would be easy to prove.
To have a stolen property report there must be someone on the line for the theft.
Did you tell the Detective that you do still have the gun? A warrant usually has a golden window sunset on it's being issued in a timely manner. Usually in most conditions the information that an LEO is obtaining a warrant on can't be over 72 hours old.
You bought the gun under good faith, and now someone is trying to claim the gun was theirs, and shouldn't have never been sold. Sounds like a Civil Matter where the burden of proof is on the person claiming your property should be theirs.
You have a police statement that it is NOT reported as stolen?
Ok!
I'd sue the 'detective' for harassment, sue the store owner for allowing him access to priveliged information, and if I could find whoever was behind this, sue him too.
I'd be big about it though. I'd give the detective one chance to get off my back before starting this.
if it's not stolen it just confirms what I and others have been saying...this cop is trying to do someone a favor without all the red tape...then again maybe the gun was used in a crime? did you ever confirm that he is in fact who he says he is? and does he have any police powers where you live or where the gun was sold?
Comments
This is NOT a high dollar item....or irreplaceable. Its really not worth the headache or drama of going through all the mess. I would let it go.....IF they are giving you every penny you have invested and you are not going to have to go to any trouble to give it back. Let the officer know he will be required to take posession of the gun...in writing....and be done with it.
We are talking principal here, not money.
I contacted his police department today and he actually is a detective there. They put me through to his voice mail and I left him a message that I wanted the stolen gun report and court date for the person who sold the gun to the gun store.
The detective doesn't know I know that he is not being charged with anything, hence no court date. He just has to give the money to the detective to buy the gun back from for the exact same price I paid for the gun.
The detective got my information from the gun store I bought it from via form 4473.
If this wasn't done properly I could have a case against the gun store owner for voluntarily giving my information out to someone that didn't have a right to it.
NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
I paid $245 for the gun.
We are talking principal here, not money.
I contacted his police department today and he actually is a detective there. They put me through to his voice mail and I left him a message that I wanted the stolen gun report and court date for the person who sold the gun to the gun store.
The detective doesn't know I know that he is not being charged with anything, hence no court date. He just has to give the money to the detective to buy the gun back from for the exact same price I paid for the gun.
The detective got my information from the gun store I bought it from via form 4473.
If this wasn't done properly I could have a case against the gun store owner for voluntarily giving my information out to someone that didn't have a right to it.
The dealer violated your privacy by showing the 4473 to the police without a court order. You have a pretty major civil case against the dealer.
Do what you think is right, but I wouldn't mess with him.
quote:Originally posted by whiteclouder
You're dealing with a cop, niner; assume he's crooked, cut your losses, and get on with your life. Reporting this to ANOTHER cop simply compounds your exposure to more of the same.
Clouder..
Glad to see you think all cops are crooked!
I had a case once where a new car dealer reported two cars stolen. When I went to take the cars from the people who had them they had some paperwork showing they'd bought the cars. I took the cars, but put them in the county lot to keep storage from building up, and directed them to talk to a lawyer. The case went to court and they got to keep the cars.
All cops are cops. Nuff said.
Clouder..
Why would you want to mess with the dealer? He may or may not have made a mistake but he is the one who told you what the real deal is and he is taking it in the shorts same as you.
Do what you think is right, but I wouldn't mess with him.
I would. Would you be comfortable with your bank telling the locals about YOUR personal information, your sprnding habits, ect, without warrents?
4473 are SUPPOSED to be non public records. No warrent, no need to know info.
I am not a sue happy guy, but I would nail this dealers scrotun to the wall with three 8 penny nails, if it were me.
I looked on GB and there are several you could replace it with...they paid the gun store back for the repairs to make it right with them so they might pay you for your dyes.. wash your hands of it get the money and go on ...the principal thats important here is the one where you would like to get a gun back that was sold out from under you especially if its an heirloom and you should treat someone else the way you would hope to be treated [:)]
Problem IS Scott, it WASN'T stolen. No reports exist for the weapon as "stolen".
Sellers remorse, is all it is.
About 25 years ago a good friend of mine was owed some money from a guy he had only known for several months.
The guy ended up paying his debt to my friend with several guns. My friend didn't "need" anything he was given but, it was the only way to get his money back from this guy.
My buddy started selling off the guns to recoup the cash. I bought a Rem 700. A week later my friend calls ands asks if I still have the Rem, well sure.
Seems the guy that gave him the guns instead of money, had stolen the guns. Detectives had called my friend and gave him TWO choices, retrieve all the guns or be charged with recieving stolen property; NO offer of ANY cash back to him for the guns, fair enough.
Point is, I'd be gald I was going to get my money back...[;)]
[:D]...idiot who stole the guns CALLED my friend he given the guns to....asking him to BAIL him out of jail!...idiots everywhere...[^]
Otherwise, bring a court order and a constable to enforce it.
Otherwise, pound sand.
The detective wanted to pick up the gun this Wednesday.
Deer season starts this Monday and I had plans on hunting with this gun.
I am going away to the mountains the following Monday.
NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
I believe I would want to see an official police report and a NCIC entry that PRE-DATED my acquisition of said firearm.
Otherwise, bring a court order and a constable to enforce it.
Otherwise, pound sand.
David's given you the best advice. If that 'detective' has anything, he'll be able to do that. If not, POUND SAND sounds good!
Clouder..
How about if I just ASSUME that all "military, retired" people are crooked too? That would be just as stupid a position as the one you just posited.
quote:You're dealing with a cop, niner; assume he's crooked, cut your losses, and get on with your life. Reporting this to ANOTHER cop simply compounds your exposure to more of the same.
Clouder..
How about if I just ASSUME that all "military, retired" people are crooked too? That would be just as stupid a position as the one you just posited.
I'd have no problem with that, David, that's your right, and I hope it's based on something more substantial than a bit of spite.
Clouder..
The original owner probably doesn't want his ex-partner to go to jail.
I believe any theft warrants reprisals. When I worked at a bike shop I made a poster that said "If nobody would buy stolen parts, there would be no reason to steal them".
I can honestly say I have never stole anything in my life. Must be my upbringing.
NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
Clouder..
Only thing is, I am not ignorant and bigoted, so I could never state such a thing.
quote:I'd have no problem with that, David, that's your right, and I hope it's based on something more substantial than a bit of spite.
Clouder..
Only thing is, I am not ignorant and bigoted, so I could never state such a thing.
I've never thought of you as ignorant but I KNOW you're bigoted. Remember, old son, we go back a long long way.
Clouder..
One gun was a cheap .410 shotgun, and by the time I was notified of the problem, I had already sold it. I suggested to my seller, and he then suggested to the PD, that the PD simply write the original owner a check for the gun. Everyone involved decided that would be more cost effective than paying to ship it back.
The second was a S&W 9mm, and apparently the original owner really wanted it back, because the PD agreed to pay for overnight FedEx shipping. I sent it back and my seller reimbursed me the purchase price.
The third was a Beretta 96 I bought in a bulk purchase from a pawn shop. I sold it to a local man who used the gun for security on loans from pawn shops a few times. The last time he pawned the gun, someone finally checked the numbers and it proved to have been stolen a few months before I bought it. I refunded my customer his money, and collected my money back from the pawnbroker. He was reluctant at first, but after I made a complaint to the Consumer Credit Commission, he paid up.
I have a standing "no stolen gun" guarantee. If you buy a gun from me, and it ends up being seized from you as stolen, and if there is a police report and NCIC entry that pre-dates my acquisition date, I will reimburse you the full purchase price. So far, I have only had to make such a refund once.
Very bad timing for this to happen.
The detective wanted to pick up the gun this Wednesday.
Deer season starts this Monday and I had plans on hunting with this gun.
I am going away to the mountains the following Monday.
It will be kind of hard for him to come "get" the gun if you are off on a huntin trip.[;)]
'Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.' -- Mark Twain
Only an idiot with nothing to say would quote Mark Twain---or anyone else for that matter. Zip it, reb.
Clouder..
Second, in all of the stolen gun cases I've been involved with, the last guy in line took the loss. I've never seen someone compensated for a stolen gun. In fact, when the FBI shows up, they just take it and most of the time don't give you a receipt unless you ask for one. Just try explaining that to the ATF examiner when they audit the books next time. "Oh, that missing gun--the FBI took it! Yea, right!"
Third, yea, it's a matter of principal; the principal is that a guy with a badge is explaining your options to you. All these folks telling you that he's crooked, it smells bad, etc., have probably never been there. I've been there. Just last week a guy with a badge shows up and tells me that he's going to arrest me for attempted murder because I sold a gun to a guy all legal like with the 4473 and everything. Smell bad? Sure. Crooked? Maybe. Could he arrest me and make my life difficult? You bet your sweet .....!! We got it worked out in the within a few hours, but it cost me $400 to my lawyer, the loss of untold sales in the shop and untold stress on me!!!! The moral is, don't be a jerk and make a molehill into a mountain. Do the right thing--give up the gun and take the money.
Nunn pay no attention to Wally he's old, no one reads his books, and besides that he's always been a horses *!!!
Your wife read them, and liked them.[:D] But then anything would be better than listening to you.
Clouder..
That way there is a paper trail for all the movements of the firearm.
Payment, would also need to go through the dealer, to you, like a consignment.
Just giving it to this "detective" leaves a gun out there with your name on it, out of your control. Also how do you know this original owner is legally qualified to own a firearm?
Tell them to kiss your butt!!!
,,,sod
I'll update tomorrow.
NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
I posted this on two other forums and 2 lawyers and 3 cops feel something just ain't Kosher about this.
I'll update tomorrow.
Update?
The dead giveaway is that no law enforcement agency can directly compensate people when they recover stolen property from them, even if it was purchased unknowingly. They simply seize the item(s), leave you with a receipt and advice on either recouping your money through civil courts or possibly a state victim's compensation fund. They definitely don't hand you what you paid for it when they take it from you.
You have two choices here...
1. Next time the guy calls tell him to cease any contact with you regarding this matter. Over and done with.
2. Contact your local law enforcement agency and set him up for impersonating a peace officer when he shows up to pick the item up. If he turns out to actually be a peace officer of some sort, he can be nailed for what my state refers to as 'Official Oppression'. In this case that basically means forcing action from a person under color of law without offical reason.
This deal more than just smells funny. It's clearly bogus.
Second, in all of the stolen gun cases I've been involved with, the last guy in line took the loss. I've never seen someone compensated for a stolen gun. In fact, when the FBI shows up, they just take it and most of the time don't give you a receipt unless you ask for one. Just try explaining that to the ATF examiner when they audit the books next time. "Oh, that missing gun--the FBI took it! Yea, right!"
I bought a Luger at a gun show before they had the Kalifornia laws about such things. A few years later I sold it on consignment.
Shortly afterward two cops showed up on my doorstep to inform me the gun was not only stolen but had been used in a shooting.
I remembered I had bought the gun with a check & after a little looking I found it. In the left hand corner the check had a space for a notation & I had written Luger & the serial number.
They took the check & to my surprise I got the money for the gun from the store owner.
That was the last of the good part. The owner died soon after that & I had one heck of a problem getting the rest of my guns back since everything was tied up until his estate was settled.
I checked through a Police Department in Utah.
NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
It is not listed with NCIC.
I checked through a Police Department in Utah.
You need a copy of that report it is unstolen.
Where does this LEO work, and if he isn't in your jurisdiction something is a miss.
He can't even get involved unless the gun was reported stolen, and is recorded in NCIC as such. This would be easy to prove.
To have a stolen property report there must be someone on the line for the theft.
Did you tell the Detective that you do still have the gun? A warrant usually has a golden window sunset on it's being issued in a timely manner. Usually in most conditions the information that an LEO is obtaining a warrant on can't be over 72 hours old.
You bought the gun under good faith, and now someone is trying to claim the gun was theirs, and shouldn't have never been sold. Sounds like a Civil Matter where the burden of proof is on the person claiming your property should be theirs.
Oh, and clouder is a putz![:p]
Trinity +++
Ok!
I'd sue the 'detective' for harassment, sue the store owner for allowing him access to priveliged information, and if I could find whoever was behind this, sue him too.
I'd be big about it though. I'd give the detective one chance to get off my back before starting this.
What a shame.