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.223 post (sans flaming)

.250Savage.250Savage Member Posts: 812 ✭✭✭✭
edited June 2002 in General Discussion
OK, folks, let's do some honest thinking here. I piled on and had some fun with Bullzeye, but basically, I agree with him. In the hunting field, you would never (humanely) use the .223 for anything larger than rabbits. If I were going into combat, I wouldn't want anything smaller than the .308. The justly diefied Jeff Cooper says that people who have actually "Seen the Elephant" come back to home base and turn in thier M-16s and ask for the Real Man's Gun, the M-14.The Insecure Hath Spake and said, "Harrumph, Harrumph, what part of your body would you like shot with the supposedly ineffectual .223?" This begs the question. I would not want to be shot with ANYTHING! Not even with the .177 air rifle!But it comes back to ultimate reality, and military service. If I have to (have no choice) go up against an enemy, what would I rather they use: a round I know is designed to wound, or a round I know is designed to kill? Oh, yeah, wound me! Once I am wounded, I am no longer of any use to my unit, so I am tailor-made to hold the line at the mountain pass, or in the alley in the urban environment, or on the hillside over the city with a sniper rifle. What else do I have to lose? I am wounded, but still able to kill. Oh, yeah, I am POSITIVE the enemies of the once-great U. S. of A. were cheering when we went from the M1 Garand to the M16...
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  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have the same concern. My previous post on this was lost in the winds so here goes again: I recently noticed that every time a new rifle with a wood stock is introduced in .223 caliber, the gun magazine reviewers tend to trumpet it as "a great new varmint rifle!" Now, if .223 is a "varmint" round, how the heck can it be a reliable battle round? Isn't that double-think? If it doesn't "explode" rabbits and gophers, I'm not sure it's enough bullet for deer sized animals -- like, say, human perpetrators. Anyway, I'm still glad I opted for the ever-reliable AK-47(S) pre-ban and a case of 7.62x39.
    "The 2nd Amendment is about security, not hunting. Long live the gun shows, and reasonable access to FFLs. Join the NRA -- I'm a Life Member."
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  • Big Sky RedneckBig Sky Redneck Member Posts: 19,752 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    This reminds of all sorts of crap I hear everyday, like the guy in the Freightliner Century Class telling somebody a Peterbuilt is junk, the guy in the Freightliner probably never drove that Pete. Or how about the guy that says a Suzuki Hyabusa wont do the advertised speed of 190+ mph. Or the fella that says nobody ever made a 160 gig hard drive, they sell them everyday. How about the guy who claims that a Holley 4150 HP won't work on a 350. What these people have in common is they never tried what they claim won't work. The guy in the Freightliner never drove a Pete therefore is making an assumption, they guy who says a Hyabusa won't go that fast never rode one, they guy that claims there is no such thing as a 160 gig hard drive never looked for one, and the guy that claims you cant put big CFM on a small motor has no idea how to make it work by porting, valving and camming. Dude, it's like this, you can get a group of people to say the .223 is worthless. If you read enough books you can believe anything you want. Have you ever used a .223, I doubt it. Your ideas are fed like bullzeyes, he thinks bigger is the only way, he needs a bazooka to shoot a squirrel, he claims it won't kill and you seem to claim the same thing. I don't care what the glory books say or the retired artillary man says about small arms because he is used to guns that take 2-3 people to shoot. I have shot a .223 quite a few times. I have killed plenty of deer with it that DIED IN A HURRY. Do you want to know how many deer I've seen run from bigger guns? I've shot deer in the lungs with an '06 and they ran. You cannot say what will happen, deer and I suppose humans all act differently when shot. I killed many many deer with a .22 long rifle, think that is a wimpy gun? 100 yard shots with stingers pal, works like a charm. .22 mags using CCI Maxi mags do wonders out to 150-175 yds, call me a liar. I have hit deer in the head at 200 yards with a ballistic tip in .223 and blew the heads apart. I have totally ruined shoulders with a well placed hit using that .223. Go ahead and climb up on the box and preach to the world that the .223 is worthless, do what you want. I'm convinced. I have never been in combat, never been in the service. I do have a family member that served in Vietnam and placed his life behind that worthless piece of junk and survived. He has seen dead gooks shot dead by what? Somebody musta snuck over there with a .308 and shot all them gooks 'cause according to some the .223 sure as hell did't do it. If you tell him he should use an AK since it is a supperior weapon and round he will politley ask you for one, then he will place it in such a place that you will never retrieve it. I have several different guns and calibers, do you know which one I prefer when going out for deer? I pass right by that custom built 7mm Ultra Mag, right past that 30-06 pump, right past those .243's, RIGHT PAST THAT .308! I pass all of them and grab that cute little NEF single shot .223 and go hunting. That little worthless gun has killed many a deer bud and done it well. BTW do you know what we use to kill pigs and steer? A tiny little .22 caliber revolver. Works like a charm. And also for a gun based on the worthless M-16, sure is an awfull lot of shops building custom match guns outa them. How many shops build custom AK's? I'm glad you guys don't like them and think they are junk. Pretty soon the prices for them will come down and that will leave more for me since it seems I'm the only one who likes them. Anywho, finished with the rantWho's next.
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  • OtomanOtoman Member Posts: 554 ✭
    edited November -1
    Good Post 7mm sounds like you have a lot of experience with the .223. I like mine and the 7.62 x 39 also...OTO
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  • varmit huntervarmit hunter Member Posts: 1,674 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    7MM,No matter were you shine a bright light, Some folks, Just never see it.
    A unarmed man is a subject.A armed man is a citizen.
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  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Dream Gun: Para-SAW version of the M249 machine gun. Caliber: 5.56mmWill I ever own one? No. Would I ever care to be shot by one? hell no.
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  • agloreaglore Member Posts: 6,012
    edited November -1
    7mmNut, if you killed so many deer with the 22 rimfire, either in standard length or magnum length, why did you switch to a larger case capacity 22?
    AlleninAlaska
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  • gjgj Member Posts: 69 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    You guys are so full of it! The fastest way to kill with a non vital hit, is severe internal hemoraging which the .223 is very capable of doing.That same damage inflicted to a bunny exploding occures inside the human body.FMJs suck just as bad or worse in 30-06,.308,.762x39 as they do in .223
    www.moaammo.com moa@reloader.net [This message has been edited by gj (edited 04-06-2002).]
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  • whiteclouderwhiteclouder Member Posts: 10,574 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I've posted responses in the past to several of the subjects broached here. No one, other than a soldier who has used one under duress can have an opinion on its viability as a combat weapon. The rest is speculation on the part of people who either need to go there or, thank God, never have, in our defense. Jeff Cooper is an opinionated blowhard who has an agenda, Jeff Cooper Inc. He's like any other celebrity (pseudo or otherwise), they have to be controversial to stay in the light, else the shrivel up and fade away. So, I don't begrudge him his space, I mean it's worked for over 80 years but them that can, do, them that can't, talk about it.Only an expert hunter should attempt to kill a deer with a .223. And most of us, even use old farts who have chased the hairy backsides over hill and dale for decades, are NOT expert hunters. Some of us are damn good shots at stationary targets, in the clear, on nice days. BIG difference. We even the odds a little by increasing the energy of the bullet delivered. Note the word energy. My father killed rabbits, deer, bear, one elk, even ducks with a .22RF during the depression. He told me he would have much sooner used his '06 but the shells were just too expensive. And dad was an expert hunter. Sounds like 7mm nut is too.Makes for a lively debate though, and that's worth something.Clouder..
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  • agloreaglore Member Posts: 6,012
    edited November -1
    White Clouder, if Jeff Cooper is a Blowhard and is only spouting off for Jeff Cooper Inc, why is it that 7mmNut may not just be a Blowhard also. I have not seen any proof that he is an expert hunter, only what you read here would make you believe that. Isn't that like reading the pages of a magazine and taking what you read as gospel. Now if 7mmNut could tell me exactly how many deer he took with such and such 22 on such and such day of the week, maybe then he could be considered a expert hunter. Until then it is only an opinion. I don't keep track of most of the dates that I have killed big game on, but I can tell you exactly how many big game animals I have killed with which caliber and firearm.
    AlleninAlaska[This message has been edited by aglore (edited 04-06-2002).]
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  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I guess I should have anticipated that a question about .223 would get some folks excited. I like Jeff Cooper, but he has nothing to do with my above posted question. I'm simply asking why gun magazines keep referring to .223 as a varmint round. It surprises me every time I see the headline. Makes it sound like a prairie dog load. That's not an attack, that's just pointing out what looks like a discrepancy. It sounds like your answer is that .223 should not be described as a varmint load because it's mistaken or misleading. If so, fine. I was always taught not to use too much load because you'll tear up the meat of small animals. I find it strange that the same load can work on varmints and on people. Of course, a small hole will bleed a person out without medical aid, it just takes longer. But a high-velocity bullet that creates a huge permanent wound cavity would, one would think, tear up a varmint more than necessary. That's all.
    "The 2nd Amendment is about security, not hunting. Long live the gun shows, and reasonable access to FFLs. Join the NRA -- I'm a Life Member."
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  • whiteclouderwhiteclouder Member Posts: 10,574 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    allen:You must read what I write, not what you want to see. There were only a couple of writers of gun lore that I placed much credence in, J O'C being one, maybe John Amber the other. The rest started to believe their own propaganda. If 7mm says he killed an elephant with a slingshot, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. I probably wouldn't pass that little gem on and I might call him on it, but, hey, it's his story. And I KNOW deer by the millions have been taken with a 22RF.Offeror:The 223 is fine for varmint shooting, as long as the range is at 300 yards or less. That's from experience. The object of shooting varmints is to vaporize them with one shot, unless of course, you shoot them for pelts. I shoot a .22 at varmints but it is a very fast .22, flat and straight. The .223 is straight, just not fast enough.Clouder..
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  • LightningLightning Member Posts: 945 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Dont know about the 223. Never owned one and probably never will. As it has been discussed before shot placement is the key with any gun. If they are 2 deer standing side by side at less that 75 yds. and I shoot one behind the ear with a 22 LR and you shoot the other in the lungs with a '06 , 300 Win.Mag.,7mm Mag. ect. 5 bucks says mine will be dead first.
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  • whiteclouderwhiteclouder Member Posts: 10,574 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    lightning:You are probably right. But if your survival depended on it, eat or don't eat, which would you rather have?Clouder..
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  • agloreaglore Member Posts: 6,012
    edited November -1
    I see somebody poofed my last post. Must be a no-no to challenge the great Clouder.I'll just repeat part of what I had said in that post.I know for a fact Clouder that you do not know of millions of white tail being killed with a 22 RF. You have no personal knowledge of that many being killed with one. So to say that you know of millions being killed with such is an outright lie.
    AlleninAlaska
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  • whiteclouderwhiteclouder Member Posts: 10,574 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    allen:You know what I don't know? Interesting. And just how do you accomplish the amazing feat of legerdemain. I'll wait while you look that up.Clouder..
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  • agloreaglore Member Posts: 6,012
    edited November -1
    Clouder you mostly all mouth and no facts to back up what you spew. Prove you know of millions of white tail being killed with a 22 RF. Or am I right, your all mouth.
    AlleninAlaska
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  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    It is interesting how we banter back and forth about the military applications of the .223. I see that there is a non-military voice or two that are very adamant about the fact that it has no place in our arsenals. I also know for a fact that there are those that post here occasionally that have taken lives with that caliber and have inspected the bodies afterwards. They won't post because they walked the walk and don't need to talk about it. I guarantee they are laughing at us all right now.
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  • whiteclouderwhiteclouder Member Posts: 10,574 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    And suddenly all deer are whitetails. What about the poor sitka and the muley. Facts. Ya wouldn't know one if you picked it out of your nose, well, on the other hand---oh, never mind.No, I can't prove multi-millions of deer were killed with a 22RF. You're right, I wasn't there to see them all. I tried, but hell man, I'm only one guy. From about 1850 until the late thirtys, a large percentage of the deer killed were killed with what people could afford to shoot. Extrapolation mechanics (Again, I'll wait a minute)
    would prove that that caliber, the 22RF has to account for many millions. Am I going to do the math for you? Nope. Is the data available. Yup. Go dig it out if it's important to you, doesn't mean that much to me.Clouder..
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  • agloreaglore Member Posts: 6,012
    edited November -1
    There you go again Clouder, dodging the fact that you can't prove what you spew. I know you don't like being dogged like this, and Bullzeye probably doesn't either. But I have sort of taken to liking Bullzeye because he is not afraid to face you down on your lies like others are.For your puny mind Clouder, I have taken 57 Sitka Blacktails, how many have you and how many were with a 22RF?
    AlleninAlaska[This message has been edited by aglore (edited 04-06-2002).]
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  • whiteclouderwhiteclouder Member Posts: 10,574 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Idsman:I don't know how many times I've tried to make that point. And the guys that know sure ain't gonna discuss it with a bunch of voyeur wannabes.Clouder..
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  • whiteclouderwhiteclouder Member Posts: 10,574 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Allen:I don't mind being dogged at all, but you stick you nose there again and I'll cut off you pig ear supply.I tried to explain how such a figure was arrived at. I should have been more specific when I first stated the number. It was actually 22,827,944. That was the actual count made by people hired to do nothing but track such things. That position in the Dept. of Interior was eliminated during the Hoover administration because it was determined that all the nuts with fixations on such things had died out. Guess they were wrong. So I'll send you fifty cents and you can call someone who might care, I don't.Clouder..
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  • Big Sky RedneckBig Sky Redneck Member Posts: 19,752 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    If you are refering to me IDS, no I'm not in the military, I've stated that MANY times. The comparasons I make with that caliber I make with the experiance I have culling deer with .22's and the .223. It has already been proven that an average sized deer has the body mass similar to a human and I know for a fact that the .223 is a deadly caliber, it is underestimated by many who just can't seem to grasp the idea that a small bullet can be effective. Bullzeye and a few others tell me that what I have seen doing what I do on the farms can't be. I made a video today and as soon as I edit the junk out of it and make it a size that can be downloaded easily I will post it up this evening for all the nonbelievers to see, it is impressive. I did however post a couple small pics taken from that video to arouse(sp?) curiosity. The comments I made about the military uses I have taken from somebody who is close to me and will share some stories with me that don't get talked about among the public. I will never sit here and quote him word for word as I do not think that is proper but I will take some of his comments and use them in such a way to try and get my point across. That is all I'm doing, I'm not doing like Bullzeye and posting everything he hears by people he don't know and passing it off as knowledge on my part. The person I'm talking about is my father, he served in an infantry unit in 'nam and if you could see his face when he is answering some of my questions you will know why I believe him. In short, in his OPINION the .223 is a very effective weapon, he has seen what it can do. For a bit of arrogance on his part, he will tell you that if you can't kill with an M-16, you need to learn how to toss grenades 'cause you sure as hell don't know how to shoot a rifle.
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  • robsgunsrobsguns Member Posts: 4,581 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Ok, I've never shot a man with a .223, shot it a hell of a lot though. I have never shot it and killed an animal either. I will tell you all right here, right now, though, just one thing. The most powerful military in the world is not using a weapon that shoots a bullet that will not kill a man.Think about that, and if you or anyone else still thinks that the .223/5.56 round is not an effective man killer, but just a good varmint round, you sir/ma'am, are a complete idiot, and will believe what ever someone else tells you. THIS IS IN NO WAY AIMED TO OFFEND ANYONE WHO HAS POSTED ON THIS THREAD. IT IS SIMPLY MY OPINION OF THE IDEA THAT THE ROUND IS INEFFECTIVE AGAINST A MAN. ALSO, IF IT WILL KILL A MAN, IT WILL SURE AS SHOOTIN' KILL A DEER!!! PERIOD!
    SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC
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  • BullzeyeBullzeye Member Posts: 3,560
    edited November -1
    Alright, I understand I'm late to this pow-wow, so let me just hang up my hat and we'll get started.Ids: You know that I utterly respect your opinion. I honestly want to hear what you have to say on this.Rob: You say that the .223/5.56 is definately designed to kill. But I thought the idea was not to kill, but to wound? Y'know, the whole "takes two to carry the one wounded guy away" thing.As even 7mm_nut will admit, you have to have very precise shot placement to take down a deer with a .223.In battle, when you've got people shooting back at you, grenades flying and people screaming and whatnot, I wouldnt imagine you'd always have the chance to carefully and calmly line up a perfect shot, especially with iron sights.
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  • robsgunsrobsguns Member Posts: 4,581 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bullzeye, What didnt you understand about my previous post? Its not a debate. It was simple and direct.Let me reiterate on the topic of 'wounds'. You have wounds that cause death, and you have wounds that may cause death, and for the lucky ones, wounds that just turn out to be wounds. I can ensure you that the .223 will cause these types of wounds, depending on where the person, deer, or varmint is hit.I can also assure you that although you are hit in the leg, that doesnt mean that the bullet wont exit via your left lung. Also, if I shoot you with the wimpy little cartridge, I can assure you that it will not be 'just a wound', as head shots and and heart shots tend not to be the 3rd category of wound I mentioned.If you join the Army, you will likely come around to the understanding that you will in no circumstance ever place yourself down range while there are shooters on the firing line. Can you determine why that may be? (large amount of sarcasm) Let me assure you this, it isnt going to be because you have decided that, after careful analysis of this round, it is completely safe, and only deadly in the hands of a calm and expert soldier. If you change your mind about the Army, try the Marine Corps, there you will find out how to ensure that the .223 causes the first category of wound. NOT SLAMMING THE ARMY!
    SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC
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  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I always wondered why the Corps sent its Marines to our schools. Anyhow, not bashing the Corps in any way. I've got nothing but love for those guys that work two offices down from me. I thank everyone that joins the Navy because each person that does so is one less opportunity that I will be forced onto a ship someday. God I can't stand water. Actually, the Navy and the Marine Corps have been playing "swap" games with me on potential recruits that may not be eligible to join their services but have a shot at the Army. I do the same because the Marine Corps can waive two felony convictions for purposes of enlistment eligibility and we can't. The Air Force just doesn't want to play ball. They still tell people that soldiers and Marines sleep on dirt floors every night during basic training. Anyhow, lest I digress. If I had my druthers I'd be taking an AR-10 carbine into combat. I say this because I would prefer the punch of the .308 round but I also know that extended periods without re-supply means that soldiers who carry more bullets can shoot more bad guys than the guys that carry the bigger stuff (I'm breaking it down into 8th-grade terms here). Take a look at our Rangers during Somalia. If they were carrying HK G-3's instead of M-16/M-4's they would have run out of ammo much earlier. They had planned for a quick "in-and-out" mission and things turned for the worse. The fact remains that the average soldier can't pick and choose the weapon for the environment (urban, jungle, desert). The desert is perfect for waging combat with those calibers that have a more extended range (i.e. .308). The enemy is in your range before you are in his. I'd prefer something like a 5.56mm round for urban combat which can turn hairy in a quickness (i.e. Somalia) and you don't know if you are going to be "in-and-out" as planned. I'd rather be carrying more ammo. The 5.56 will do a fine job in close and medium ranges. With all that being said, I still sound like an idiot because I have never seen combat. I have been stranded on a dirt road 8 hours from civilization in the middle of Honduras with AK-47's firing a few hundred meters away. That was enough to make me angry with the powers-that-were who decided I was only allowed to take my M9 with me on that trip. Even so, I can't say I've ever had rounds fired with the intent to harm me in my entire life and I have never fired a shot with the intent or possibility of killing a human being. Therefore, I'm sure I sound like a fool. My job is to do what I am told. Right now I have no weapon assigned to me due to the nature of my current position. I have a cabinet with several of them standing by (including 1,000 rounds of .223) I'm sure I'd be somewhat prepared in the case Red Dawn ever becomes a reality. If all hell would ever break lose on domestic soil, we would be more likely to encounter a scenario where we would have to get the hell out with a quickness. I'd rather have large amounts of a mediocre but capable round in my bug-out bag than a shorter supply of a larger caliber. How fast can you run with a pack containing 1,000 rounds of ANY caliber along with all of the other survival supplies that you would need to wait out a conflict on domestic soil? In that scenario, guerrilla warfar would almost be certain. Small cells of individuals acting without a centralized form of leadership. Do you think you'd risk running to the nearest sporting goods store to re-supply for the war effort if it ever came down to that?[This message has been edited by idsman75 (edited 04-07-2002).]
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  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    7mm--I wasn't referring to you. I know exactly where you are coming from. Nothin' but love brother.There is one thing that has not yet been taken into consideration. That one thing is mindset. You can program your brain in such a manner and foster a warrior spirit within yourself that will increase your survivability in the case that you are shot. However, human beings have been brainwashed my movies and TV to the point that they automatically think that a human being goes flying through the air as soon as they are shot and die quick deaths--usually from the first shot delivered. The rare circumstance that this does NOT happen in film is when some dramatic spice is needed in order to jazz up the plot. There was a documented case years back in the state of Washington where a woman died very quickly from a .22LR bullet that entered her calf. Cases like this occur because many humans actually program themselves to die when they think they should die. When you shoot a deer it probably doesn't know that it has been shot. In all likelihood it senses grave danger after stumbling from the impact and adrenaline kicks in. Have you ever been punched in the face but did not feel it until you woke up the next morning because you were focused on the fight at hand? You were "in the zone" and didn't sense the true damage that was inflicted upon you. Fight or flight kicked in and you kicked butt. Bambi doesn't know he's been shot. Bambi may not have even felt the pice of metal you just sent hurtling through his boiler room. He staggered but he's running like hell. We now step into a very theoretical but very real realm of possibilities when we take this mental factor into consideration.Caliber choice can now go either way. A small caliber round may have just as much impact upon the mental state of the enemy that you just shot. If the enemy has conditioned himself mentally and is prepared for what you have to dish out then that initial shot may have little effect. In that case, CALIBER is very important. You now have to make it physically impossible for the enemy to take the next step forward. The only way to ensure instant death does not rely upon caliber. It relies upon shot placement. The T-zone is the only place on the human body that will cause near-instantaneous shut-down of a human being. Shoot someone in the T-zone with a .223 and shoot another there with a .308. It really won't matter because you just got one step closer to earning the Nobel Peace prize by giving one more enemy the opportunity to rest in peace. [This message has been edited by idsman75 (edited 04-07-2002).]
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  • agloreaglore Member Posts: 6,012
    edited November -1
    Clouder I can spout numbers also. 22,345,098 Dept of Interior. Now why not post a link too those figures of your.You said they exist, I didn't. You wouldn't make a good pimple on this ex-marines behind let alone cut off my supply of pig ears. Now be a man and post links with all the numbers you are blabbering on about. There must be a link somewhere if it comes from a public entity like the Department of Interior.
    AlleninAlaska
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  • .250Savage.250Savage Member Posts: 812 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    DANG!!! 27 posts in 24 hours!!! I've NEVER done THAT well before!Thank you, all who have posted, tho I have noted a certain amount of "flaming". Ah, well, c'est la vie. We are all only human...7mm - Never sed the .223 COULDN'T kill, just said it might not be the best choice. Those who've "been there and done that" (which does NOT include me) have complained about the rounds' lack of horsepower. Remember, you are not always just shooting AT a person, you might have to shoot THRU something, such as a cinderblock wall. In that scenario, a .308 beats the hell out of the .223.Whiteclouder - glad you weighed in on this thread. You and I might "agree to disagree" on many issues, but know this: I will ALWAYS value your input. You are a thinker, man. As I believe Heinlein said, "90% of people never think at all. 8% think only when they absolutely must. 2% of people think all the time, regularly, easily, and happily." (I may not have the quote exactly right...)By-the-by, could you enlighten a lazy feller on "extrapolation mechanics"? Extrapolation, of course, is the practice of taking data points already collected and predicting future occurrances based upon already-observed data. No-brainer there, but I'm not familiar with this term. I could "surf" the web, but you have the data, and I don't feel like wasting a lot of my time feeding my ego when I know someone else has all the answers.Bullzeye: Glad ya showed yer face, son! Seems we might be on the same side against all these "heathens"! Again, the immortal Cooper sed "You should use as much gun as you can handle." Given a choice, between a marginally effective calibre and a proven and VERY effective calibre, which would you choose?I don't know you, but I'm beginning to like you. You have been reamed repeatedly, and you still won't back down. If you join the military, whichever branch, you won't have to apologize to anyone. You got a pair, boy.
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  • gjgj Member Posts: 69 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    WHITECLOUDERYour quote:The 223 is fine for varmint shooting, as Wlong as the range is at 300 yards or less. That's from experience. The object of shooting varmints is to vaporize them with one shot, unless of course, you shoot them for pelts. I shoot a .22 at varmints but it is a very fast .22, flat and straight. The .223 is straight, just not fast enough.I dont agree with you on the above! The .223 will and is effective on P-dogs at 500-1000 yrds.Or maybe your talking coyotes. But your still wrong.Which of these are not fast,straight and or flat enough?.223 40gr 3,900 fps..223 50gr 3,500 fps..223 60gr 3,250 fps..223 75gr 3,150 fps.What .22 are you shooting be specific? gj.
    www.moaammo.com moa@reloader.net [This message has been edited by gj (edited 04-07-2002).]
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  • Big Sky RedneckBig Sky Redneck Member Posts: 19,752 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    .250 you have a point about have to shoot thru a wall and the .223 not being good for that, and I will also be the first one to say the .223 sucks in heavy cover brush. Now here is where I will bash a round, I hat the .308, I have one and I hate that thing, nothing but a hotrodded 30-30 in my book and I have no time for a 30-30. My absolute favorite 30 cal is the '06. If I gotta carry a .308, just give me an '06. I made one bad shot on a deer about 10 years ago and that .308 hasnt been shot by me since, I hit one in the back of the ribs from the side, good solid hit and my buddy who was with me said he seen hair fly when I shot, he was watching thru his scope. Anyhow, never did find that deer, I shot, watched it run and never saw it again, dang blasted .308, I started hunting with an '06 after that and was much happier. Then came the 7mm and the mouse guns.
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  • robsgunsrobsguns Member Posts: 4,581 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    idsman75, To answer your question of the Corps sending Marines to Army schools. I think its pretty much a monetary thing these days, everyone is swapping students these day. Ft. Leonard Wood is a perfect example, if you know about it, but we have our own schools here, so its a little different, in that we just have all the services here, to save money. I really dont mind going to another service's school, but I do mind the conflicts that arise due to double standards, its kind of like the recruiting requirements you mentioned earlier. Nothing seems to be equal anymore, everyone plays their own game, but we are suppose to be able to work together. Well, this doesnt pertain to the thread, but I thought I'd put in a little here.
    SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC
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  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I hate to change the direction of this valuable thread but I agree. There are double standards. The Marine Corps can waive 2 felonies for enlistment but can't put in people with GED's right now. We can't waive 2 felonies but we can' put in people with GED's (provided they score high enough on the ASVAB). The Air Force won't work with anyone that might require more than the minimal amount of paperwork (no felonies, no misdemeanors, etc..) but the Air Force Academy has the highest rate of Cadets arrested for felony offenses (followed by the Naval Academy and then West Point). I agree with what you mentioned about the double standards. I have to pass a physical fitness test at every Army school I attend. Navy, Marines, and Air Force don't. That's like telling women they don't have to qualify at the range during basic training because they can't go into the Combat Arms anyways.
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  • steve45steve45 Member Posts: 2,940 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    It seems we have some military men here so I have a question. When the .223 FMJ round was first used in combat, it used a longer bullet than normal to bore diameter and a slow rifling twist to create an unstable bullet that would tumble when striking flesh creating wounds more like an expanding bullet would. Due to complaints about penetration this round has now been changed to a hard steel core penetrator bullet and fast rifling twist. Has the .223 now lost the knockdown power of the tumbling bullet? A friend at work who is reading the book Blackhawk Down says the soldiers in Somalia said they would shoot a enemy soldier 8 to 10 times before he would stay down. They also said that their squad sniper that was using an M-14 did not have this problem.(no doubt a better shot) Im getting the book info second hand but has anyone in the military heard of the new .223 round lacking effectiveness?
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  • whiteclouderwhiteclouder Member Posts: 10,574 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    gj:I shoot a 22-250 on calm days, a 25-06 if the wind picks up. I will not argue ballistics with anyone. All the information has been published regards retained energy, muzzle velocity and trajectory. A 40 grain bullet, from a .223, at 3900. Ooookay. Most of mine vaporize about twenty yards from the muzzle because of over-rotation. If that slug made it 1000 yards. oh, to hell with it.250:The statistical tools, functions, algorithms, or any other scientific device or system that is used to arrive at an unknown data point from, as you correctly noted, known data points. It's not necessarily a prediction tool. If 10 men broke (past tense) 150 tons of rock in 60 hours, how long did it take one man to reduce a standard boxcar full of granite. Lots of data points, some vague and historically dependent. In the case of the deer counting, function would probably have been a better word than mechanics, mechanics has a more physical connotation but it's what come to mind. Far better to use the Bureau of Deer Counting, U.S. Dept. of Interior values or maybe strike a correlation with the Bureau of Elk Counting, same era. But then everybody knows that.Clouder..
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  • 218Beekeep218Beekeep Member Posts: 3,033
    edited November -1
    I am losing touch with reality,I am no longer sure if anything really exists..especially whiteclouder,he has never proven his existance.Please help me get my grip..sombody say something about bees!.218
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  • Big Sky RedneckBig Sky Redneck Member Posts: 19,752 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Steve, let me ask one question, if a poor choice in ammo occurs, do we condemn the rifle and the chambering? That seems to be the entire debate here. All these arguments keeps falling back on a FMJ or the steel core ammo, it's like some of these guys get stuck on one thing and refuse to change. That would be like taking a high compression race engine made to run on CAM2 race gas, putting 87 octane economy gas in it, then claiming the engine was junk because it ran like crap. You need to feed the thing what it needs to function properly.
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  • 218Beekeep218Beekeep Member Posts: 3,033
    edited November -1
    I had a dream,in the sky was twelve dark clouds..they were angry dark clouds.I don`t know how I knew they were angry..but I knew..that is how dreams are.There came a white cloud,it was much larger,much more majestic than the dark angry ones..it made it`s way through the dark angry ones with such ease,as they seperated to make way for the great white one,they grew less threatening as there ranks were devided..some became much lighter than before,a few became yet darker,but less threatening,because there numbers were few... .218
    Did sombody say somethin` about bees?
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  • Big Sky RedneckBig Sky Redneck Member Posts: 19,752 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Uhh, .218. You need to lay off that Ganja.com.
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  • steve45steve45 Member Posts: 2,940 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    7MM Nut, I am not condeming anything. I like the AR-15 rifle and .223 I heard of this at work Friday (blackhawk down) and figured I would ask Idsman and Instrumentofwar as to what they knew. As for me I load plinking ammo with 55 gr. FMJ and hunting ammo with spitzer soft-points and I have no ammo concerns.
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