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Hans, its illegal in Arizona but not in some other states. A lot of deer shooting with .22 rimfire is done by poachers. The sound of a .22 doesn't carry far in the woods and breaking the law doesn't concern them.
Ah, now we've gotten to the old twist ratio debate! I might have known....Actually, I'm posting to say that I no longer own a 9mm because I kept reading that it was a marginal stopper unless certain loads were used. I shot some Nyclad, and a variety of other loads -- seems to me the cops were having the best luck with the 115 grain +P+ loads. So then I bought CorBon 115 for a while. Since I went back to .40, .44 and .45 I seem to have a larger choice of ammo. Whether this correlates in a general way with the idea that the "correct" round be used with the .223, I won't venture an opinion. But I do know that in the smaller diameter rounds like .223 or .30 carbine, I'll buy softpoint, given the option. The benefits for the .30 carbine should be clear, at least.
"The 2nd Amendment is about security, not hunting. Long live the gun shows, and reasonable access to FFLs. Join the NRA -- I'm a Life Member."
O.K.I will fess up I killed 784356 of those deer with a .22 rimfire.Call game thief and get the reward,And lets move on.I wont to make one thing clear.NO trees were killed are wounded while killing the above mentioned deer.There are some things not even the old varmit will do.
A unarmed man is a subject.A armed man is a citizen.
steve45:If you're depending on the movies for your information you have slipped beyond redemption. You need something much more reliable----, like bullzeye.Seriously, read a few posts here, and you will soon pick out those with real experience and those that need some. And then, take what you learn and use it as a guide to lead you to your own experience. That's best. Clouder..
idsman75, I dont know about all the schools of the other serivices, but we have to take a PFT before and after completion of nearly every professional school we attend. I cant speak for the other services. I dont see the point in it, really, we take one twice a year, what do they figure they are going to accomplish? As for the felony convictions, I dont see why everyone shouldnt have the same standards. I personally dont see a problem with hiring someone with a felony conviction, if I said I had a problem with it, then I would be admitting that our criminal rehabilitation program is a joke and a waste of money, and thats another thread.Also, what is the point of someone getting a GED if they cant have the darn thing recognized as a valid test of their educational level? That makes no sense whatsoever.I'm just a worker bee, not a queen bee, or, what...? Did someone say soemthing about bees?
SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC
Whiteclouder, the movies gave me the question, its now my job to hunt down the answer. Like I said I use soft-points and have no doubt that a .223 in a defense situation, with a soft point hit anywhere in a mans chest would be devastating. It would be interesting to me to know if .223 FMJ's with the 1/7 twist have lost some of their punch.
Clouder:Me,in your will..let`s not speak of wills. Besides that could take a long time. Another paragraph from the journey would be a pleasant treat...for now.
robsguns--One thing that is required to be a successful member of any branch of the armed forces (yes, even the Air Force) is motivation. There is a generalization that led to certain regulations pertaining to applicants who have GED's. That generalization is the assumption that someone with a GED dropped out due to a lack of motivation or the inability to function in a classroom environment--both of which are critical in the military. With that being said, I have put 2 people in the Army with GED's in the last 9 months. They have to take some kind of psychological test that measures motivation and they have to score above a 50 on the ASVAB where someone with a high school diploma can pass with a 31. The first gentleman that I put in with a GED dropped out due to a tragic accident that killed both of his parents and he needed some "down time". He finished his GED and was looking at the Air Force who wouldn't take him without some college credit hours in addition to his GED. I tested him and he scored WELL above a 50. He was injured right at the end of Basic Training and was sent home with a 2-year waiting period before he could try again. I talk to him regularly because he works right across the street from my office now. He's dead set on going back in when his 2 years are up. That is what I call motivation!I am shipping a second person with a GED this week. He also scored WAY above a 50 on the ASVAB and is going to be an Aircraft Powertrain mechanic. He dropped out of high school to get his GED specifically so that he could realize his dream of being a soldier sooner. His class graduates in 2003. He's getting a 1-year head start by leaving this Wednesday. That's what I call motivation!
Saxon.....insercure.Well you can get both words on the same page. But they sure don't belong there.
A unarmed man is a subject.A armed man is a citizen.
I gots a question: Why is it that people are saying that unless you've been in combat and had somebody shooting at you, you can't offer anything to this discussion? What is up with that? It would seem to me that a thoughtful and analytical discussion of the .223 would require a great amount of knowledge of ballistics, human anatomy, physics, metalurgy (SP?), psychology, tactics, logistics, and maybe chemistry. I find it hard to believe that you would disqualify the opinion of a person with doctorates in several of these disciplines, simply because he had never been in combat. Of course the opinions and experiences of those men who were/are in combat would be a vital part of the discussion, but should they be given the sole voice?This whole idea reminds me of the "It's a black thing. You wouldn't understand." line. I would never be allowed to discuss affirmative action, racism, etc. simply because I'm white. Well, phooey on that.I say that if you've got something intelligent to contribute, you should be allowed to have your voice heard.
223:Who do you think come up with the 5.56 M-16. They were known back then as Kennedy's whiz-kids, PHDs not worthy of carrying a combat GI's jockstrap.I think what I said was that only men or women who have depended on the M-16 in combat can attest to its worthiness. I still believe that.Discuss it all you want, it's encouraged, but if one of the above say you're full of it on the subject, I'd look around for the john.Clouder..
Of all the boom sticks at my disposal, (and the number of options are considerable), my CAR M-4 sits closest to the bed. It truly is a tack driving SOB. It's accuracy is way beyond that of my other rifles, including the Rem 7mm mag. Guys, I bad mouthed the .223 for years until I got the M-4. My foot is still in my mouth and for the record, it does a fine job on KY whitetail too.
It ain't bragging, if you can do it.Will Rogers
A short time after WWII, the U.S. army established a program to evaluate weapons systems in the modern (atomic) battle field. Based on battle field statistics from WWI, WWII and Korea, showing most kills from small arms occuring at less than 300 yards, it was determined that the military should seriously consider lighter weight, higher capacity weapons. Since there was no suitable cartridge for a smaller caliber assault rifle at the time, Eugene Stoner while working for Armalite Corporation approached Winchester corporation and the small but powerful .223 Rifle Cartrdige was born. The cartridge was fast, light weight, low recoil, yet could penetrate a helmet per army specifications. Since the design of the rifle caused hot gases from the barrel to get into the bolt area of the gun, Stoner specificed the ammo to use new cleaner burning powders to minimize fouling of the weapon. Colt bought the rights to make the AR15 rifle from Armalite corporation. Vietnam Era Soldier With M16 The AR15/M16 was introduced during the Vietnam War with a total lack of serious evaluation and testing. Although Stoner specified what kind of powder to use in the ammunition, the army instead purchased ammo using older "ball" powders causing serious reliability issues resulting in the deaths of American boys in combat when their weapons failed. The current version of the AR15/M16 has a heavier barrel and match grade accuracy. In use all over the world, it is a testament to the talent of Eugene Stoner, that the AR15/M16 remains in use to this day, the longest service life of any rifle in U.S. History.
7.62 NATO - (30 Caliber) The 7.62 NATO (.308 Winchester) was adopted as the standard cartridge for small arms (rifles) for the American Military in the late 1950's. Even after the M16 became popular during the Vietnam War the 7.62 cartridge still continued in specialized service by snipers, Navy nuclear weapons guards, Navy Seals, and light machine guns. The 7.62 bullet is similar in ballistics to the 30-06 (pronounced "thirty ought six") caliber bullet used in the 1903 Springfield Bolt Action Rifle early in this century, and M-1 Garand Semi-Automatic Rifle of WWII and Korea. The American M-14 Rifle in 7.62 is still in use in our armed forces and saw a resurgence of use by Marines in the deserts of Iraq during the Gulf War due to it's long range, flat trajectory and ability to penetrate steel. 7.62 NATO (.308 Winchester) Adopted In 1957Used in M14 Rifle, And Light Machine Guns 30-06 (Thirty "Ought" Six) WWI, WWII, and KoreaSpringfield Bolt Rifle, M1 Garand, Light Machine Guns Upon entering a fleshy target, the 7.62 bullet travels strait nearly six inches before the massive shock wave ahead of the bullet transfers incredible energy into the target as the bullet begins to tumble. Thus the bullet can exit before the maximum shock wave expansion can occur. 30 Caliber rifle bullets of this type are known to knock men down, and throw them off their feet back some distance. The cartridge is powerful, accurate, and humane in it's ability to kill quickly. The permanent cavity produced remains after the bullet exits the body. The temporary cavity causes tearing of tissues and muscle damage. The temporary cavitation (shock wave) causes death when it impacts the heart or liver but not necessarily in other areas of the torso.
7.62 x 39 (AK-47) The 7.62 x 39 Cartridge is an intermediate size cartridge used around the world in the AK-47 Automatic Rifle and SKS Semiautomatic rifles. While not considered as accurate as American and European weapons, these weapons are famous for their ease of manufacture and incredible reliability. While not quite as devastating as the 30 caliber rounds, the 7.62 x 39 is still quite deadly having an unusual tendency to remain intact even after taking unusual deviations upon contact with bone.
.56 NATO (.223)The 5.56 NATO (.233) is the work horse of the American Military, as well as the armies of many other countries, being the cartridge used in the M-16 Rifle, first adopted during the VietnamWar and now used in the weapons of many other countries For a little bullet, the 5.56 bullet produces quite dramatic wounds. While the traditional 30-06 caliber bullet of the M1 Garand and 7.62 bullet of the M14 rifle would immediately knock a man down, the 5.56 bullet instead enters the body, quickly turns sideways after passing through only 4" of flesh, then breaks in two major pieces, as well as many smaller fragments. During the Vietnam War, soldiers reported that shooting an enemy soldier with the M16 did not kill as quickly as the old 30 caliber weapons. Instead soldiers would follow a massive trail a blood a few feet away from where the enemy soldier had been hit to find him dead from massive blood loss. This light-weight cartridge permits soldiers to carry more ammo, but is not as effective at long distances as heavier cartridges and does not penetrate steel as well. The low recoil permits quick follow-up shots and minimal muzzle climb during automatic fire.
saxon:Stoner was not one of those I refer to. His design was his own.The whiz-kids I refer to were the ones that insisted their own preferences for everything from armament to logistics to MANOPs, all the things that make an Army run. And they did it based on personal agendas, politics, and liberal bias. They did a terrible injustice to the US military.I know, I was there.Clouder..
Well we are on page 2. Is the .223 The best caliber in the world, No.Is there a best caliber, No. I don't wont to be shot with anything,Much less a .223.I guess at this point, I have missed the point.It does seem like we are having fun. That is the whole point of us being here.This wont be settled till .218 Bee changes his name to .223 Gee Wiz.So lets just keep on keeping on.
A unarmed man is a subject.A armed man is a citizen.
Different guns/cal for diff occasions. Different strokes for different folks. Just because I would say I can kill a deer easy with a .223 doesnt mean the next guy can, on the other hand that guy can kill deer easy with a 300 H&H mag and I cannot. Mudge can back me up on this, I'm a tiny fella, 5'11" 180lbs, dem beeg guns hurt me shoulder, dem teeny guns I like! In all honesty I can shoot that .223 better than most of the other guns I use, why? Because I'm more comfortable with it, sure I can handle the bigger ones but I prefer to use something smaller. The only time I want something bigger than what I need is muzzle loader and archery shootin. I use a .54 cal MZ and shoot a 75lb draw Reflex bow. I like the .223 because for the hunting I do ti works perfectly, I can shoot GH's all day and not get sore and I can take that one gun for deer also. You fella's that claim it won't kill deer, you are entitled to your opinion. Those who lose deer with a .223 are probably likely to lose one with a larger gun because it sounds to me like alot of them just pull up and shoot, I don't take running shots, standing only head or shoulder when possible, I aint lost one yet since I calmed down and started shooting the right way. As far as killing men, nope I havent done that, pretty sure I never will and sure as hell don't want to. But if I had to, I would use the .223. I am curious about one thing, how many experianced combat vet's are here to share their beliefs? Not any of this "I read this and that", None of the " my buddy says this and that". Do we have anybody here that has actully fired one in combat and what are your feelings on this. And I don't mean service men shooting targets with the m-16 either, actuall combat vets. I'm not asking for combat stories just a simple answer to my question. Will it kill?[This message has been edited by 7mm nut (edited 04-08-2002).]
I dont care what anyone says, this new Schwann's ice cream I'm eating is better than anything, and it will bring an army to its knees, if you feed 'em enough of it, and its sooo good!!!
SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC
Comments
"The 2nd Amendment is about security, not hunting. Long live the gun shows, and reasonable access to FFLs. Join the NRA -- I'm a Life Member."
A unarmed man is a subject.A armed man is a citizen.
SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC
A unarmed man is a subject.A armed man is a citizen.
It ain't bragging, if you can do it.Will Rogers
7.62 NATO - (30 Caliber) The 7.62 NATO (.308 Winchester) was adopted as the standard cartridge for small arms (rifles) for the American Military in the late 1950's. Even after the M16 became popular during the Vietnam War the 7.62 cartridge still continued in specialized service by snipers, Navy nuclear weapons guards, Navy Seals, and light machine guns. The 7.62 bullet is similar in ballistics to the 30-06 (pronounced "thirty ought six") caliber bullet used in the 1903 Springfield Bolt Action Rifle early in this century, and M-1 Garand Semi-Automatic Rifle of WWII and Korea. The American M-14 Rifle in 7.62 is still in use in our armed forces and saw a resurgence of use by Marines in the deserts of Iraq during the Gulf War due to it's long range, flat trajectory and ability to penetrate steel. 7.62 NATO (.308 Winchester) Adopted In 1957Used in M14 Rifle, And Light Machine Guns 30-06 (Thirty "Ought" Six) WWI, WWII, and KoreaSpringfield Bolt Rifle, M1 Garand, Light Machine Guns Upon entering a fleshy target, the 7.62 bullet travels strait nearly six inches before the massive shock wave ahead of the bullet transfers incredible energy into the target as the bullet begins to tumble. Thus the bullet can exit before the maximum shock wave expansion can occur. 30 Caliber rifle bullets of this type are known to knock men down, and throw them off their feet back some distance. The cartridge is powerful, accurate, and humane in it's ability to kill quickly. The permanent cavity produced remains after the bullet exits the body. The temporary cavity causes tearing of tissues and muscle damage. The temporary cavitation (shock wave) causes death when it impacts the heart or liver but not necessarily in other areas of the torso.
7.62 x 39 (AK-47) The 7.62 x 39 Cartridge is an intermediate size cartridge used around the world in the AK-47 Automatic Rifle and SKS Semiautomatic rifles. While not considered as accurate as American and European weapons, these weapons are famous for their ease of manufacture and incredible reliability. While not quite as devastating as the 30 caliber rounds, the 7.62 x 39 is still quite deadly having an unusual tendency to remain intact even after taking unusual deviations upon contact with bone.
.56 NATO (.223)The 5.56 NATO (.233) is the work horse of the American Military, as well as the armies of many other countries, being the cartridge used in the M-16 Rifle, first adopted during the VietnamWar and now used in the weapons of many other countries For a little bullet, the 5.56 bullet produces quite dramatic wounds. While the traditional 30-06 caliber bullet of the M1 Garand and 7.62 bullet of the M14 rifle would immediately knock a man down, the 5.56 bullet instead enters the body, quickly turns sideways after passing through only 4" of flesh, then breaks in two major pieces, as well as many smaller fragments. During the Vietnam War, soldiers reported that shooting an enemy soldier with the M16 did not kill as quickly as the old 30 caliber weapons. Instead soldiers would follow a massive trail a blood a few feet away from where the enemy soldier had been hit to find him dead from massive blood loss. This light-weight cartridge permits soldiers to carry more ammo, but is not as effective at long distances as heavier cartridges and does not penetrate steel as well. The low recoil permits quick follow-up shots and minimal muzzle climb during automatic fire.
AlleninAlaska
A unarmed man is a subject.A armed man is a citizen.
SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC
Now you need to find the melting bulet thread Rugerniner!