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The truth about "Dirty Harry"

offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
edited May 2005 in General Discussion
In the first movie John Milius has Dirty Harry talking to the perp about how he's carrying the "most powerful handgun in the world," (at the time) and how it will "blow your head clean off." In the movie MAGNUM FORCE, he off-handedly tells one of the .357-carrying rogue cops that he loads his 629 with ".44 light Specials" because "it gives me better control" or words to that effect. Talk about popping my balloon.... Anybody else noticed that? Dirty Harry shoots .44 Specials! But of course, despite some writer's piece of dialogue, the gun always goes off like a Magnum and penetrates like one too.

- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
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Comments

  • E.WilliamsE.Williams Member Posts: 1,101 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Now that you mention it I do.Where they are at the range when he first meet the killer cops.

    Eric S. Williams
  • Gordian BladeGordian Blade Member Posts: 1,202 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Well, that's Hollywood for you. We had a fun topic the other day about Hollywood gun bloopers. I didn't post my favorite common blooper because someone else beat me to it, but since we're on the subject again: I love it when somebody shoots a handgun and there is no appreciable recoil that you can tell from watching, but when the bullet hits the bad guy (or maybe the good guy), the person who is hit flies backward like he just got hit by pickup truck. Good old Isaac Newton must spin in his grave every time they do that.
  • DancesWithSheepDancesWithSheep Member Posts: 12,938 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    There's a lot of inexcusable mistakes in those movies. My favorite is about a guy shot six times with a revolver, that "somebody emptied a whole clip into him."

    Why does man kill? He kills for food. But not only for food; frequently, he must have a beverage.
  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I guess a related question would be, what percentage of police deptartments would be willing to approve the .44 Magnum as a duty round for a detective -- let alone the San Francisco PD, Harry's department. Would they approve .44 Special?

    - Life NRA Member
    "If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
  • allen griggsallen griggs Member Posts: 35,690 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    That screenplay was written by John Milius. He is a conservative and very gun-knowledgable screenwriter. He wrote Red Dawn among many others. He still has a single action Colt that his grandfather carried on San Juan Hill with Teddy Roosevelt. I would be surprised if he were mistaken or phony on a gun subject. ps He says he has few friends among the Hollywood types.

    "Not as deep as a well, or as wide as a church door, but it is enough."
  • DancesWithSheepDancesWithSheep Member Posts: 12,938 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The whole premise of a police inspector being allowed to carry a 8 3/8" Smith 29 as a duty weapon is ludicrous. True, Milius inherited this gimmick from the first (Fink) screenplay, but the premises of both "Magnum Force" and "Red Dawn" are even more ridiculous. I think John Milius wee-wees sitting down.

    Why does man kill? He kills for food. But not only for food; frequently, he must have a beverage.
  • allen griggsallen griggs Member Posts: 35,690 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I liked the premise of Red Dawn. Commie parachute divisions invade the US. High school kids take to the mountains and engage in guerrilla warfare. Pilot parachutes down and joins the partizans. Partizan groups, including teenagers, fought the Nazi invaders all over Europe in WW2, including France and Norway. I thought it was a pretty realistic premise.

    "Not as deep as a well, or as wide as a church door, but it is enough."
  • DancesWithSheepDancesWithSheep Member Posts: 12,938 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Just another remake of "China's Little Devils". But rural, early WWII China (and even WWII Europe) is a far, far cry from post-NORAD, 1980's USA. The idea of teenage "wolverines" laying out ambushes for armored columns only a month after popping their last pimple before the high school dance is laughable, as is an "Eagle driver" (Booth's character) knowing so much about application of crew-served weapons in infantry tactics. And while all of this is truly entertaining, it by no means true (as it was for the partisans you mention).

    Why does man kill? He kills for food. But not only for food; frequently, he must have a beverage.
  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I liked RED DAWN but it has always seemed incomplete to me, as if there was more there in a longer version. But it's a good movie, and that's what movies are for.

    I met John Milius about the time CONAN came out, and he is the "Ted Nugent" of Hollywood, in a way. Certainly no commie liberal. If you want to believe Harry shoots a whole different load for range stress practice, okay, but I was a little put off by the remark. It sounded to me like he was explaining his choice of carry load to the new kid. In fact I was wondering if Milius even wrote the second movie, because it sounded like one of those "trying to be hip but missing the data" Hollywood lines. It's pretty clear that Harry's signature load is the .44 Magnum by all other indications, especially since they go to a Wildey semi-auto in the third one -- that to me was when they went a little over the top. I doubt Specials would even cycle the gun properly. Harry was too much a classic oldtimer to need the upgrade from the revolver, and besides, he looked odd carrying it. I forget what the plotline was that caused him to acquire the Wildey. Oh well.... They certainly didn't take off afterward like the 629 did in the gun shops.

    - Life NRA Member
    "If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
  • NighthawkNighthawk Member Posts: 12,022 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I had not thought of that until you just brought it up.

    Rugster


    Toujours Pret
  • DancesWithSheepDancesWithSheep Member Posts: 12,938 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Milius wrote the first Dirty Harry with the Finks, but was uncredited. He did most of the writing with Magnum Force (with Cimino, I think), and this is the one with the most improbable premise and most laughable gun inaccuracies. Sudden Impact was the fourth Dirty Harry, not the third (that was The Enforcer), and the sequel in which the Wildey appeared.

    Why does man kill? He kills for food. But not only for food; frequently, he must have a beverage.
  • allen griggsallen griggs Member Posts: 35,690 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Sheep, you are scoffing about teenagers fighting the Russkies. Get real. In the closing weeks of the Third Reich 15 and 16 year old Hitler Youth fought like tigers against the Russkies in Berlin. Soviet troops were amazed at the ferocity of these teenage warriors. My buddy from high school was a Marine in the 'Nam. He was a truck driver. One day, a 6 year old kid threw a satchel charge into the truck. My buddy was standing next to the truck and got some shrapnel in the arm. His fellow truck driver was killed.
    These movies are all fiction, anyway, and most people allow some poetic license to the screenwriters. Even a movie that is fact-based, the story of Sergeant York, had flaws. Will you condemn this show because the movie York used a Luger instead of the actual .45?

    "Not as deep as a well, or as wide as a church door, but it is enough."
  • DancesWithSheepDancesWithSheep Member Posts: 12,938 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I think you misread (I can't even say "misunderstood"). Again, there is a signficant difference between the kids in Red Dawn and the historical kids you mention, in that the latter lived with war from birth or early childhood, and had been first mentored by experienced partisans. That is a substantially different scenario than Red Dawn, where the kids neither saw nor lived through any of that, yet in less than a month's time, alone in the mountains, somehow intuited how to set ambushes, use RPGs and RPKs and generally out-fight a seasoned enemy. Gee, ya think?

    No matter. All of this is okay because it's entertainment. Milius does have license. But excuse me if I balk when in his dialog for Magnum Force he says that a revolver is clip-fed. I know most people probably don't notice, don't know or don't care. But I do. Hardly an excusable line from the "Ted Nugent of Hollywod".

    Why does man kill? He kills for food. But not only for food; frequently, he must have a beverage.
  • RembrandtRembrandt Member Posts: 4,486 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I enjoy the gun movies for what they are....a fantasy world of entertainment to escape to for a couple of hours. Sometimes it's fun to imagine yourself in a role of the actor and wonder what you'd do under the circumstances....but then the pop and popcorn run out and it's time to return to reality.
  • DancesWithSheepDancesWithSheep Member Posts: 12,938 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I know Smith made a 6" M29, but not a 6 1/2", and my recollection is that in all scenes Harry's gun was an 8 3/8" (hence the line in the cross scene by Andy Robinson's character, "My, that's a big one").

    While I agree some latitude is given to certain police officers re: carry weapon, I do not believe this extends to caliber selection (i.e., you can have .38 Specials in a Colt Detective or S&W Chief's Special, but not .357's in a Python; similarly, you can have 9mm in a Beretta 92 or Sig 226, but not .45acp in a Sig 220). I don't know of a single large-city PD in the country that has not had an established "allowable weapons and ammunition" standard since the 40's, San Francisco included. This standard even extends to selection within allowable cartridge type (e.g., for 9mm, you must use only 115gr ball).

    The Romantic poet John Keats wrote a poem in which he attributed discovery of the Pacific to Cortez rather than Balboa. Fact is, he did it because "Balboa" didn't rhyme. Does this historical inaccuracy ruin the poem? Probably not, and that is what we mean by "poetic license".

    Why does man kill? He kills for food. But not only for food; frequently, he must have a beverage.
  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Actually, I was more concerned about the Wildey itself than I was getting the sequel number right. I would have guessed the gun in the first film had a good 8" of barrel on it -- it looked like it in the bank robbery scene in the street (or should I say the Universal back lot).

    I doubt Milius would have made dumb mistakes about the guns in his dialog writing, so I imagine the misinformation was written or added by someone else.

    As for Sgt York, I think it is a BIG deal that they substituted the Luger for the American sidearm. It mars the movie for me because there was no good reason for the historical inaccuracy and the .45 deserved the credit. I consider that one a big, stupid mistake. There's something foul about York using a Nazi sidearm in that scene, if it wasn't so.

    - Life NRA Member
    "If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
  • bama55bama55 Member Posts: 6,389 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Sheep,

    S & W did make a 6 1/2" M-29.

    Don't send flowers when I die. Send money now, I can buy more ammo.
  • DancesWithSheepDancesWithSheep Member Posts: 12,938 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thanks, Bama.

    Why does man kill? He kills for food. But not only for food; frequently, he must have a beverage.
  • WWllVetWWllVet Member Posts: 1,493 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Sheep FYI the Huntington Beach,CA. PD Plain clothes officers carry P220's in .45 ACP and PPKs's in .380 for backup. This I know as I have been supplying them with their leather carry systems for years.

    Vet
  • gunpaqgunpaq Member Posts: 4,607 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    According to an AMC show about how movies are made, Cooper used a Luger in "Sgt. York" because the 1911 prop gun did not function properly with the blanks issued. One would think that in an era of Nazi aggression the studio would have gotten it right but they also used the Springfield instead of the Enfield in the protrayal of Sgt. York. Still, "Sgt. York" is an excellent movie and should be required to be viewed by college freshmen (and all young people as well) instead of the required reading of the Koran. On another note on the "COMBAT!" series: why was it that Cage was the only soldier who reloaded his Garand (the only character in the series that tried to be 100% authentic) and was Kirby trying out for the "A TEAM" as he never hit anything and rarely reloaded his BAR?

    Pack slow, fall stable, pull high, hit dead center.
  • E.WilliamsE.Williams Member Posts: 1,101 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Gunpaq got it I saw that same show.The .45 blanks wouldnt reliably cycle the 1911 but the 9mm blnks cycled the Luger perfectly.I think it could hve been worked out some way for such an important part of the movie/story.

    Eric S. Williams
  • DancesWithSheepDancesWithSheep Member Posts: 12,938 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    WWII VET:

    I am aware that many PD's carry the Sig 220 and other .45ACPs. I meant to say only that officers could not legally carry them unless they were authorized to do so.

    Why does man kill? He kills for food. But not only for food; frequently, he must have a beverage.
  • ccasey612ccasey612 Member Posts: 901 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Good point.

    If you will blame gun makers for every shooting then blame car maker for every car accident.
  • beltfedbeltfed Member Posts: 690 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hello Mr Sheep
    Smith and wesson has made the model 29 in four, six and a half and eight and three eights. The made the model 57 the 41 mag in 4, 6, and 8 3/8. Smith later changed the model 29 to a 6 inch. I think this was for ease of manurfacting since they were both N frame guns. I was 16 when dirty harry came out and about the time I became interested in guns. Of course the price of model 29's when thru the roof, suggested retail was 248.00 and 29's were selling for 1.000. Smith was backorded three years! I eventually got all three 4, 6.5 and 8 3/8 for suggested retail,which I still have. Clint used a 6.5 in dirty harry.I believe smith has quit making the model 29 all togather in blue and nickel,which is sad.In march of 1975 shooting times did a article on the model 29 with the model 29 0n the cover I still have 3 issues wrapped in plastic in which I wrapped that month in 75. Needless to say I'm a big fan of the 29. Two of my 29's my dad had to buy because I was not old enought to buy a hand gun.
  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Actually you left out the whole 3" snubbie line. There's been the Backpacker from S&W which I think was a 3" as well as RSR's Trail Boss with ports, and the Lew Horton custom version of the Backpacker with unfluted cylinder. I lusted after one for a long time.

    - Life NRA Member
    "If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
  • DancesWithSheepDancesWithSheep Member Posts: 12,938 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Beltfed: Thanks for the info. All these years I thought Harry carried the 8 3/8". I stand corrected.

    Why does man kill? He kills for food. But not only for food; frequently, he must have a beverage.
  • mudgemudge Member Posts: 4,225 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Are you guys SURE S&W made the 29 in 6 1/2"? I've got one and it's 6".
    One of my "favorite" bloopers is the supressor attached to a revolver. Yeah...that'll work.

    Mudge the confused

    I can't come to work today. The voices said, STAY HOME AND CLEAN THE GUNS!

    Edited by - mudge on 08/26/2002 21:08:10
  • competentonecompetentone Member Posts: 4,696 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hey Mudge,

    Didn't you notice, it was a Nagant gas-sealed revolver?
  • BuckshotBuckshot Member Posts: 54 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    According to an article in shooting times or one of the other magazines published at the time Dirty Harry made his debute..the gun he actually used was a Model 57 .41Mag instead of a Model 29..this information was supplied by the Gunsmith at Smith and Wesson who made the gun outta spare parts ..but then "Only the Shadow Knows.."..any other old timers remember the article?
  • Laredo LeftyLaredo Lefty Member Posts: 13,451 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    mudge.... Iam positive Smith made the 29 with a 6.5" barrel, I have one. They discontinued the 6.5 in 1979 and went to the 6". Yours is a post 79 gun.

    "Never let school interfere with your education"
  • Ray BRay B Member Posts: 11,822
    edited November -1
    Offeror- I was unaware that the Nazis were making P'08s for use in The Great War.
  • competentonecompetentone Member Posts: 4,696 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Laredo Lefty
    mudge.... Iam positive Smith made the 29 with a 6.5" barrel, I have one. They discontinued the 6.5 in 1979 and went to the 6". Yours is a post 79 gun.


    LL,

    So this has been bothering you enough for the past two years that you feel compelled to pull the thread out of the archives to comment? [?]

    "Strength is the outcome of need; security sets a premium on feebleness." -- H.G. Wells (The Time Machine)
  • ifishbajaifishbaja Member Posts: 73 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I thought that the gun in Sudden Impact was an AMT .44 Automag. I thought the Wildey came along in one of the Death Wish movies with Charles Bronson.
  • He DogHe Dog Member Posts: 51,593 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Offeror, I am amazed that anything Hollywood does can still pop your bubble. You gotta be a true innocent![8D]


    Did you know the members page shows that you have not posted since May 17? You must be posting from the Twilight Zone!
  • Laredo LeftyLaredo Lefty Member Posts: 13,451 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    competentone.......
    Oh so sorry. I read the post and didnt notice how old it was. Iam sure its NEVER been done before. I truly appologize for annoying you.


    "Never let school interfere with your education"
  • Chockfull O NutsChockfull O Nuts Member Posts: 646 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    This is a great idea. Let's resurrect all of Offerer's old posts and maybe he'll come back.

    The M29 came with a 6.5 inch barrel until 1978 or 79 when S&W made 6 inch standard on all modela.

    The gun in Dirty Harry wasn't a M57. The story usually goes that they substituted the 57 for the hard to get 29 but the 29 wasn't hard to get until after the movie came out. John Millius co-wrote the screenplay and has the gun used in the film (given to him by the studio). It is a blued 6.5 inch M29-2.

    I think the line about "specials" meant he used special loads, not specifically .44 Special ammo or loads at that level. Although he did say the loads were lighter and that does sort of blow the whole "most powerful handgun" mystique.

    I think the 44 auto in the sequel was an Automag, not a Wildley.

    On the guns used by the SFPD, the Model 58 .41 magnum was once issued to patrol officers so maybe the .44 was allowed at one time.
  • rongrong Member Posts: 8,459
    edited November -1
    Hey guys , cut Inspector Callahan some slack.
    He has to go to work every day,all day and he doesn't get
    any respect. He disarms bombs,gets beat up and
    doesn't complain.His boss and the mayor don't like him,
    but he still get's the job done. Thank god the script is written
    in his favor or he'd really be in trouble!
  • MuffinmanMuffinman Member Posts: 418 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by DancesWithSheep
    I think you misread (I can't even say "misunderstood"). Again, there is a signficant difference between the kids in Red Dawn and the historical kids you mention, in that the latter lived with war from birth or early childhood, and had been first mentored by experienced partisans.



    I quess all those Boy Scout days were not FTX's. I beleave the Hilter youth even had there version of the Boy Scouts as well. It then turned into a "Aryan Race" brain washing down the road. But they never had any formal military training in weapons or tactics. They gave them one Panzerfest and a rifle. Also any kidd caught running away was shot by a officer who stood gaurd in the rear!

    The only part I had to say "No Way" was when that RPG hit the cheap looking Hind. In real life it would have burned up on a flash from all the Hydrolic fluid leaks they produce. Even the Afgans would shot flares in the Open Cockpit from above them.
  • nunnnunn Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 36,085 ******
    edited November -1
    It was an AUTOMAG, not a Wildey, that Harry carried in one of the last movies.

    The Wildey showed up in one of the Death Wish series.

    SIG pistol armorer/FFL Dealer/Full time Peace Officer, Moderator of General Discussion Board on Gunbroker. Visit www.gunbroker.com the best gun auction site on the Net! Email gpd035@sbcglobal.net
  • jsergovicjsergovic Member Posts: 5,526
    edited November -1
    Many claim that the gun Eastwood uses in Dirty Harry is actually a .41 Magnum, although the difference isn't noticeable onscreen.? Considering that the Magnums were created from parts for the film, it's quite possible.

    http://www.the-dirtiest.com/41.htm
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