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Choosing Your Battle Rifle
Josey1
Member Posts: 9,598 ✭✭
Choosing Your Battle Rifle
by
Columba
This article is intended for freedom-loving folks who already know the basics of shooting. I'm going to assume that you are already familiar with gun safety and have experience with rifles. If you don't have that type of knowledge and experience, I encourage you to keep reading, but to go get a .22 rifle and learn how to use it before you acquire a battle rifle, for reasons I will elaborate later on. Of course, if it looks like battle rifles are in immediate danger of being banned in your area, then grab what you can, while you still can.
What is a battle rifle?
A battle rifle is a potent and versatile tool with a primary purpose of allowing a single rifleman to engage and neutralize multiple human targets at ranges of up to 500 yards, even if they are behind light cover or armor. In a pinch, a battle rifle can fill most other roles required of a rifle - it can be used for hunting large game, for self-defense, and for short-range combat. While many other types of firearms fill those roles as well, only the battle rifle is an effective combat tool for long ranges and protected enemies.
Why battle rifles?
Why do we want such a potent rifle? Because as private individuals, we have no backup to resort to. The military can always bring out artillery, guided missiles, and air strikes when their soldiers' small-caliber carbines are ineffective. We can't. We can only use what we can carry. So we need to have the most effective weapons available - which are the battle rifles.
Human history is chock full of times when the common people were forced to choose between fighting and being enslaved, and we have no reason to expect that the future will hold anything different. An armed society has the option of fighting against oppressors - and often wins (the Scots of the early 14th century and the Americans of the late 18th century are excellent examples). At the very least, an armed people can go down fighting. An unarmed society is in the pathetic and pitiable state of being unable to even attempt to retain its freedom. I, for one, will fight for my freedom if that time comes.
So, what elements make up a battle rifle?
Cartridge: Our requirement for the battle rifle is to be able to engage a human target at 500 yards through some cover. That's not a trivial matter. Furthermore, we need our rifle to use readily-available ammunition, preferably military surplus. That leaves us only one choice: .308, also known as 7.62x51mm. There are a few other cartridges which meet our performance requirements, including 8mm Mauser (8x57mm), .303 British, .30-06, and 7.62x54 Russian. We will consider the .303 British and .30-06, but the other two simply are not used in any weapons worthy of being modern battle rifles.
Action: Because we want to be able to engage multiple targets simultaneously, we need a fast action. Semi-automatic is obviously the best, but a bolt-action can do in a pinch.
Magazine: Bigger is better, as long as it works properly. Time spent reloading is time when you can't be shooting. For that same reason, quickly detachable magazines are almost essential, as they allow much faster reloading than guns with fixed magazines and stripper clips.
Reliability: If it doesn't go bang when you pull the trigger, it ain't worth it. Period. It doesn't matter if you can hit a gnat in the eyeball at 800 yards - if your gun doesn't fire, all your skill is a moot point. Our rifle must feed, fire, extract, and eject perfectly every time. We're looking for a serious piece of machinery here which we plan to entrust our lives to. This is no place to save a few bucks on a fixer-upper that "just needs such-and-such, and it'll work great!" If you buy a used gun, test it extensively before you rely on it.
Ergonomics: A battle rifle (or any other gun, for that matter) has several controls needed for proper use - the trigger, stock, magazine release, bolt release, bolt handle, sights, and grip. These controls should be arranged in a manner that allows the user to manipulate the rifle as efficiently and effectively as possible. A good rifle, like a good car, should feel like an extension of your body.
Accuracy: A battle rifle does not need to be able to hit a 1" bullseye at 1000 yards, it needs to be able to hit a person at 500 yards. For that purpose, we need about 2 or 2.5 MOA. MOA stands for 'minute of angle' - 1 MOA is 1/60th of a degree. Handily, the width of an arc 1 MOA wide at 100 yards is almost exactly 1 inch. Thus a 1 MOA gun will put all of its shots into a 1" circle at 100 yards, a 2" circle at 200 yards, and a 5" circle at 500 yards. Our 2-2.5 MOA requirement means a 10-12.5 circle at 500 yards, which is sufficient to hit a human torso. As important as our rifle's mechanical accuracy is it's practical accuracy - if your target is moving and dodging 500 yards away, can you actually make a hit? Practice is part of it, but good sights will make that task much less difficult.
Alright, what rifles can meet all those requirements?
Not too many. But definitely enough to give you a good field to choose from. I have omitted a few because of their rarity. While they may be very good rifles, I simply don't have enough experience with them to be comfortable making a recommendation for or against them. These omitted rifles include the Belgian FN-49 (aka SAFN), Italian BM-59, Israeli Galil, and Swedish AG42 Ljungman. What I will say is that these guns range from uncommon to very rare, so if you use one, get tons of spare parts, because even if they aren't banned they will probably dry up naturally. Now, let's get on to the battle rifle finalists. I've listed them in order increasing quality as battle rifles (note: my practical experience with several of these rifles, mostly the AR-10 and HK-91, is limited. I've used information from the excellent Boston's Gun Bible to supplement my personal knowledge of those weapons. I highly recommend this book to anyone seriously interested in firearms ?you can get it at www.javelinpress.com).
Vepr .308
Description:
The Vepr is a current-production variant of the AK-47 made in Russia. They are available in a variety of calibers, but only the .308 version is a possibility for a battle rifle. They are well-made guns, and use RPK receivers, which are 50% stronger than normal AK receivers. They are imported by Robinson Arms of Utah (www.robarm.com).
Pros:
Reliability. Like other AK varients, the Vepr's simplicity makes for a very reliable rifle.
Ruggedness. The Vepr also inherited the AK's sturdiness. It can shrug off most abuse without a hitch.
Cons:
Sights. Like other Aks, the Vepr uses a forward-mounted notch as a rear sight. Not only is this much slower to use, but it also has a sight radius too short (19-20 inches) for good long-range shooting. You can buy a replacement rear peep sight (Kreb's Custom Guns, www.krebscustom.com, $50)., but you're stuck with the short radius.
Magazines. Because it was introduced after the 1994 magazine ban, the only magazines available are proprietary 5- and 10-rounders. For a battle rifle with detachable magazines, 10 round simply isn't sufficient. Kreb's can, however, retrofit your Vepr to accept M14 magazines ($150). For anyone planning to use a Vepr as a battle rifle, I consider this modification absolutely essential.
Safety. The Vepr has a standard AK safety. Yech. It can't be operated from a shooting grip, it's stiff and loud, and when disengaged, it leaves a gaping hole for dirt to get into the action (although this last problem is minimized by the gun's reliability). Kreb's also has a replacement safety which can be used without altering your grip ($50).
Bolt. The Vepr has no bolt hold-open at all. You will have no indication that you're out of ammo until you pull the trigger and it goes click!. Also, the Vepr's bolt handle is on the right side of the receiver, which is awkward for you right-handed shooters.
Final Comments:
With enough modifications, the Vepr can be made into a tolerable battle rifle. But for the same money, you could get rifle that is better than the Vepr in nearly all respects. For our purposes, there's no compelling reason to buy a Vepr.
Enfield
Description:
The Enfield was the main combat rifle of the British Empire for more than 60 years, and with good reason. It is a rugged and durable rifle, and much faster to operate than any other military bolt rifle. There were many variants made, but for our purposes the No4 is the best. The earlier No1 rifles are hampered by bad sights, and the No5 jungle carbine is lacking in accuracy. There were also a number made by the Indian government which were chambered in .308, rather than .303. While the .308 is advantageous (it's a more powerful and more common cartridge), I believe that the inferior sights of the Indian rifles (they're all of the No1 variety) outweigh their better cartridge.
The .303 cartridge used by Enfields is a rimmed round, and has about 90% of the ballistic power of the .308. For our battle rifle, this is perfectly adequate. However, the rimmed ammo can cause feeding problems. To avoid these, ensure that the 2nd and 4th rounds in your stripped clips sit up on the rims of the 1st, 3rd, and 5th rounds.
For in-depth information on the Enfield, I suggest http://www.geocities.com/lee_enfield_rifles/ .
Pros:
Action. Because each round is manually fed into the chamber and extracted, the Enfield in unaffected by ammo of varying power and much less vulnerable to feeding malfunctions. When the rare malfunction does occur, the bolt action of the Enfield is far quicker and easier to clear than any semi-auto.
Sights. No 4 Enfields have two sights to choose from. One of a fast battle sight for ranges out to 300 yards, and the other is a more precise micrometer sight adjustable out to 1300 yards (some No4s have a second non-adjustable peep sight for 300-600 yards; I would avoid these in favor of micrometer sights). Because the No4 Enfield rear sight mounted behind the action and has a long barrel, the sight radius is a very impressive 29 inches, which is a definite boon to accurate shooting.
Price. You should have little trouble finding a good-quality No4 Enfield for $200. Gun shows are the best option, as you can inspect a rifle before buying it there. If you can't find any at shows, try online auctions and surplus dealers.
Cons:
Action. Because you must manually load every round, you will never be as fast with an Enfield as you could be with a semi-auto. With enough practice you can keep up an acceptable rate of fire, but you'll have to work hard to do it, and an equally skilled rifleman with a semi-auto will always be able to out-perform you. The gun can do it - the record in the "mad minute" of British rifle training (number of hits on a 24" target at 300 yards within 60 seconds) with an Enfield is an eye-opening 38, set in 1914. Just imagine what that shooter would have been capable of with a good semi-auto!
Magazine. Although the Enfield magazines are detachable, they only hold 10 rounds, and it is faster to reload the rifle with stripper clips (the mags were not designed for rapid changing). This is still slower than reloading any other battle rifle, any you'll have to practice with the stripper clips to be able to reload reasonably fast. Finally, having only ten rounds puts you at a significant disadvantage to shooters with 20 rounds at their disposal.
Age. When shopping for an Enfield, make sure to carefully check the condition of the bore and the headspace. These are old guns, and many have seen combat and lots of corrosive ammo.
Final Comments:
The Enfield is an excellent rifle, and a joy to shoot. However, it only barely meets the requirements of a battle rifle, and is only a good choice for a person who simply cannot afford anything else. If an Enfield is truly all you can afford, then get one, practice extensively with it, and save up for one of the semi-autos. A skilled shooter with a bolt-action Enfield isn't unarmed, but could be much better off.
AR-10
Description:
The AR-10, produced by Armalite (www.armalite.com), is a scaled-up AR-15 in .308 (many AR-15 parts are interchangeable with AR-10 parts). The first version was made in the 1950s and 60s, and only a few exist (only 100 semi-auto ones were ever made). The new version is what we're looking at for a battle rifle. They are available either with an AR-15-type carry handle or a flat-top for scope mounting.
Pros:
Accuracy. The AR-10 has excellent sights. Like the Enfield, it has two apertures, one for fast short-range work and the other for more precise long-range shooting. Also, the AR-10 is capable of very good mechanical accuracy - more are 1-1.5 MOA rifles.
Ergonomics. Like its brother the AR-15, the AR-10 handles fantastically. The safety, mag release, and bolt release are all quickly and easily accessible to the shooter.
Cons:
Reliability. Unfortunately, this is a real killer for the AR-10. It suffers from the same dirty operating system as the AR-15, and cannot go as long as other rifles without cleaning. Furthermore, it is not uncommon for AR-10s to have problems feeding, extracting, and (especially) ejecting shells. To run salt in the wounds, Armalite's customer service is not up to par, and parts are difficult to get.
Price. AR-10 magazines are modified M1A mags - expect to shell out at least $65 or $70 for a good one. Yowch!
Final Comments:
The AR-10 has the potential to be a great choice, but so-so reliability kills it. Reliability is the most important qualification for a battle rifle - no matter how comfortable and accurate it might be, it's only a mediocre club if it won't fire when you pull the trigger. I'd pass on the AR-10 and spend my money on a more dependable gun. Of all our rifle candidates, only the AR-10 has never been issued by any military, and that's no coincidence.
M1 Garand
Description: The Garand (named after its designer, John C. Garand) was one of the first mass-issued semi-auto military rifles. It was adopted by the US military in the 1930s, and served throughout World War II and the Korean War. It is a gas-operated rifle, and feeds from 8-round clips inserted into the top of the receiver.
Pros:
Trigger. Shooters will really appreciate the Garand's fine trigger pull. It's a two-stage affair, with a 4.5-5.5 pound pull. Designed for the true rifleman.
Sights. A long sight radius and well-designed aperture sight make the M1 a fine shooter.
Cost. At half to a third the cost of the other rifles, the M1 is a good rifle for someone on a limited budget.
Cons:
Caliber. The Garand was designed for the .30-06 cartridge. While its slightly more powerful than .308, it's significantly rarer, as it was only ever used in a few military rifles (none in active service today). Handily, a new barrel is all you need to convert your Garand to .308 (though unless you're a Garand expert, you should send it to a gunsmith to have this work done).
Clips. Obviously, the Garand's 8-round clips leave you at a disadvantage to the rifles using 20-round mags. This can be minimized with lots of practice loading. Also, the clips cannot be partially reloaded - where a rifleman with mags can easily swap a mostly-depleted mag for a full one, you'll have to shoot your clip empty before you can reload.
Final Comments:
The Garand is a treat to shoot and a great piece of Americana, as well as a very competent battle rifle. If you can get past the unfortunate 8-round clips, you'll be very happy with the Garand. If you can't afford an M1A, the Garand is a good alternative.
HK-91
Description:
Designed in the early 1950s by a team of Spanish and German engineers, the CETME/HK-91 was one of the first battle rifles chambered in 7.62x51. It uses a roller-locking operating system which is exceedingly reliable, and is the standard combat rifle for more than 50 nations worldwide. Like other battle rifles, it uses 20-round detachable magazines.
Pros:
Reliability. It will work, every time. The operating system is based on delayed blowback, and has no gas system to get dirty and clogged. Furthermore, the HK is nearly immune to parts breakage. Even the vaunted AK is not as reliable as the HK-91.
Cons:
Bolt handle. The bolt handle on the HK is a fold-down design, and located forward on the handguard. A normal handle like the FALs would be much easier to use (especially for a lefty).
Trigger. Because it is designed to withstand a 12-foot drop without firing, the trigger pull on the HK is both long and heavy, hindering accuracy.
Sights. Not too bad, but not up to the standard of the M1/M1A/FAL/AR-10.
Final Comments:
The HK-91s faults are all fairly minor, but they add up. While it's by no means a bad choice, it's not the best choice for your battle rifle. Nothing else is as reliable as the HK, and that is a major redeeming feature for it.
If you decide to get an HK, be wary of the post-ban clones (Hesse and CETME). Many have sights which are horribly misaligned (up to two feet off at 100 yards!). An original will give you far fewer problems in the long run, which is worth the extra cost.
FAL
Description:
Having been adopted by 93 different nations as a primary combat rifle, the FAL is the most common of the battle rifles. Designed by Fabrique Nationale of Belgium in the 1950s, it is a superb weapon. The best available are from DSA Arms (www.dsarms.com), and they are of excellent quality.
Pros:
Accuracy. A good FAL is a very accurate rifle - 1.5 MOA isn't uncommon at all.
Reliability. With a 7- or 11-position (depending on model) gas regulator, the FAL is very reliable.
Mags. Good 20-round FAL mags are readily available for only $8 each. Any FAL owner should seriously stock up on these while they're so cheap.
Ergonomics. Unlike the HK, the FAL's controls are quite well arranged. A lefty will find the bolt handle awkward to use, but for righties (who make up ~90% of the population) the rifle is a pleasure to use.
Cons:
Sights. Standard FAL sights are not the most precise, thanks to a large and rounded front post and some wobble in the rear sight. This can be fixed by a good gunsmith, however.
Trigger. The FAL trigger is usually fairly long and sloppy. This can also be easily fixed by a good FAL gunsmith.
Final Comments:
The FAL is a truly excellent battle rifle. Nearly everything is done right to start with, and the few remaining shortcomings are easily corrected. It's seen combat everywhere from Vietnam to the Falklands and is very much liked by its users. What more can you ask for?
M1A
Description:
The M1A (or M14, as the US military called it) is basically an improved M1 Garand which uses quick-detach box magazines. It was the successor to the Garand as a US issue rifle, but only for a few years (it was replaced by the M16).
Pros:
Reliability. The M1A goes one step beyond having an adjustable gas system - it has a self-adjusting gas system. This makes it superbly reliable.
Trigger. The M1A inherited the excellent trigger from the Garand. You'll love it.
Sights. The M1A also inherited the sights from the Garand. They're not quite as good as the AR-10's, but darn close. Made by riflemen for riflemen.
Cons:
Accuracy. The M1A doesn't have quite as much mechanical accuracy potential as the FAL, but its great sights make up for that in the field.
Bolt handle. The bolt handle on the M1A is on the right-hand side of the receiver, making it slightly less handy for righties. However, it's not a major hindrance, thanks to its good design and placement (and if you're a lefty, it's a fine bonus).
Final Comments:
The M1A is another fine battle rifle. It has no serious flaws, and only a couple minor ones. You really can't get much better than an M1A.
So...now what?
All of the top three rifles (HK-91, FAL, M1A) are mechanically fine choices. Once you have decided on which rifle to purchase, make sure to read up more on it and investigate the different models available. Avoid junky clones - you'll end up regretting it. Buy a quality gun the first time. If we are forced to fight, your life and freedom will depend on your battle rifle. Don't skimp on it!
Whichever one you choose will serve you well, as long as you practice with it. So get the one that feels the best to you, because you'll enjoy it the most and consequently practice with it the most. If you go buy a FAL or M1A and just let it sit in your closet, you'll be easily bested by a shooter with an Enfield who practices regularly.
Ok, I've got my rifle. What else do I need?
Like any other piece of complex machinery, your battle rifle will need periodic maintenance and repair. You'll need a good comprehensive cleaning kit (which should be used after every shooting session). This includes a cleaning rod, bore snake, solvent, oil, toothbrush (for those little places) and patches. Any decent gun store can set you up with everything you need.
You should also get a set of spare parts for your rifle. Do you think that in 15 years you'll be able to call up a mail-order company and order a new bolt for your high capacity semi-automatic military assault sniper weapon? Yeah, I don't think so either. Buy at least one spare for every part, and do it now. Only one little dinky part needs to break to turn your best weapon into a rather clumsy club.
If you have a semi-auto, you'll need magazines. Lots of magazines. Over time, they will break and get lost, and I expect it won't be long until detachable mags (and their associated high capacity semi-automatic military assault sniper weapons) will be strictly verbotten. We need to buy up a lifetime supply now - at least 30 mags for your gun is a good place to start. You can't have too many. Yeah, I know that's pretty expensive, especially for the M1A and AR-10. If it makes you feel better, I expect those mags will be worth their weight in gold some day (if not worth more). If you have an M1 Garand, you'll be using 8-round clips instead of magazines. Buy oodles of clips - when they eject in a fight, you won't have the time to find them, and they hold fewer rounds than detachable mags as well. How many? Start with about 600.
Last (but certainly not least), you need ammo. There's plenty of surplus military .308 on the market, which is just fine for our needs. Buy it by the case, and save some money. You should have at least a couple thousand rounds. Ten thousand is a good goal to go for. Once you have that much, stash it away and don't use it. That way you'll have a good supply in the case that ammo sales are cut off by new laws. The more ammo you have, the more you'll be able to shoot. How long do you want to be able to shoot? Buy that much ammo, then buy some more.
Now, the most important part:
Practice! Practice more! Keep on practicing! Learn to use your battle rifle, and use it well. There are many great resources for learning to shoot well, includes several excellent gun schools. Read as much as you can, and then go out and shoot as much as you can. If at all possible, take classes. Nothing compares to having an expert instructor show you what you're doing right and wrong.
Our battle rifles are, as George Washington said, Liberty's teeth. Should we be forced to fight for our liberty, we're going to need those teeth well-honed. Let me close with a quote from the movie Braveheart:
"Aye, fight - and you may die. Run and you will live - at least for a while. And dying in your beds, many years from now, would you be willing to trade all the days, from this day to that, for one chance - just one chance - to come back here and tell our enemies that - they may take our lives, but they'll never take our freedom!"
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"If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
by
Columba
This article is intended for freedom-loving folks who already know the basics of shooting. I'm going to assume that you are already familiar with gun safety and have experience with rifles. If you don't have that type of knowledge and experience, I encourage you to keep reading, but to go get a .22 rifle and learn how to use it before you acquire a battle rifle, for reasons I will elaborate later on. Of course, if it looks like battle rifles are in immediate danger of being banned in your area, then grab what you can, while you still can.
What is a battle rifle?
A battle rifle is a potent and versatile tool with a primary purpose of allowing a single rifleman to engage and neutralize multiple human targets at ranges of up to 500 yards, even if they are behind light cover or armor. In a pinch, a battle rifle can fill most other roles required of a rifle - it can be used for hunting large game, for self-defense, and for short-range combat. While many other types of firearms fill those roles as well, only the battle rifle is an effective combat tool for long ranges and protected enemies.
Why battle rifles?
Why do we want such a potent rifle? Because as private individuals, we have no backup to resort to. The military can always bring out artillery, guided missiles, and air strikes when their soldiers' small-caliber carbines are ineffective. We can't. We can only use what we can carry. So we need to have the most effective weapons available - which are the battle rifles.
Human history is chock full of times when the common people were forced to choose between fighting and being enslaved, and we have no reason to expect that the future will hold anything different. An armed society has the option of fighting against oppressors - and often wins (the Scots of the early 14th century and the Americans of the late 18th century are excellent examples). At the very least, an armed people can go down fighting. An unarmed society is in the pathetic and pitiable state of being unable to even attempt to retain its freedom. I, for one, will fight for my freedom if that time comes.
So, what elements make up a battle rifle?
Cartridge: Our requirement for the battle rifle is to be able to engage a human target at 500 yards through some cover. That's not a trivial matter. Furthermore, we need our rifle to use readily-available ammunition, preferably military surplus. That leaves us only one choice: .308, also known as 7.62x51mm. There are a few other cartridges which meet our performance requirements, including 8mm Mauser (8x57mm), .303 British, .30-06, and 7.62x54 Russian. We will consider the .303 British and .30-06, but the other two simply are not used in any weapons worthy of being modern battle rifles.
Action: Because we want to be able to engage multiple targets simultaneously, we need a fast action. Semi-automatic is obviously the best, but a bolt-action can do in a pinch.
Magazine: Bigger is better, as long as it works properly. Time spent reloading is time when you can't be shooting. For that same reason, quickly detachable magazines are almost essential, as they allow much faster reloading than guns with fixed magazines and stripper clips.
Reliability: If it doesn't go bang when you pull the trigger, it ain't worth it. Period. It doesn't matter if you can hit a gnat in the eyeball at 800 yards - if your gun doesn't fire, all your skill is a moot point. Our rifle must feed, fire, extract, and eject perfectly every time. We're looking for a serious piece of machinery here which we plan to entrust our lives to. This is no place to save a few bucks on a fixer-upper that "just needs such-and-such, and it'll work great!" If you buy a used gun, test it extensively before you rely on it.
Ergonomics: A battle rifle (or any other gun, for that matter) has several controls needed for proper use - the trigger, stock, magazine release, bolt release, bolt handle, sights, and grip. These controls should be arranged in a manner that allows the user to manipulate the rifle as efficiently and effectively as possible. A good rifle, like a good car, should feel like an extension of your body.
Accuracy: A battle rifle does not need to be able to hit a 1" bullseye at 1000 yards, it needs to be able to hit a person at 500 yards. For that purpose, we need about 2 or 2.5 MOA. MOA stands for 'minute of angle' - 1 MOA is 1/60th of a degree. Handily, the width of an arc 1 MOA wide at 100 yards is almost exactly 1 inch. Thus a 1 MOA gun will put all of its shots into a 1" circle at 100 yards, a 2" circle at 200 yards, and a 5" circle at 500 yards. Our 2-2.5 MOA requirement means a 10-12.5 circle at 500 yards, which is sufficient to hit a human torso. As important as our rifle's mechanical accuracy is it's practical accuracy - if your target is moving and dodging 500 yards away, can you actually make a hit? Practice is part of it, but good sights will make that task much less difficult.
Alright, what rifles can meet all those requirements?
Not too many. But definitely enough to give you a good field to choose from. I have omitted a few because of their rarity. While they may be very good rifles, I simply don't have enough experience with them to be comfortable making a recommendation for or against them. These omitted rifles include the Belgian FN-49 (aka SAFN), Italian BM-59, Israeli Galil, and Swedish AG42 Ljungman. What I will say is that these guns range from uncommon to very rare, so if you use one, get tons of spare parts, because even if they aren't banned they will probably dry up naturally. Now, let's get on to the battle rifle finalists. I've listed them in order increasing quality as battle rifles (note: my practical experience with several of these rifles, mostly the AR-10 and HK-91, is limited. I've used information from the excellent Boston's Gun Bible to supplement my personal knowledge of those weapons. I highly recommend this book to anyone seriously interested in firearms ?you can get it at www.javelinpress.com).
Vepr .308
Description:
The Vepr is a current-production variant of the AK-47 made in Russia. They are available in a variety of calibers, but only the .308 version is a possibility for a battle rifle. They are well-made guns, and use RPK receivers, which are 50% stronger than normal AK receivers. They are imported by Robinson Arms of Utah (www.robarm.com).
Pros:
Reliability. Like other AK varients, the Vepr's simplicity makes for a very reliable rifle.
Ruggedness. The Vepr also inherited the AK's sturdiness. It can shrug off most abuse without a hitch.
Cons:
Sights. Like other Aks, the Vepr uses a forward-mounted notch as a rear sight. Not only is this much slower to use, but it also has a sight radius too short (19-20 inches) for good long-range shooting. You can buy a replacement rear peep sight (Kreb's Custom Guns, www.krebscustom.com, $50)., but you're stuck with the short radius.
Magazines. Because it was introduced after the 1994 magazine ban, the only magazines available are proprietary 5- and 10-rounders. For a battle rifle with detachable magazines, 10 round simply isn't sufficient. Kreb's can, however, retrofit your Vepr to accept M14 magazines ($150). For anyone planning to use a Vepr as a battle rifle, I consider this modification absolutely essential.
Safety. The Vepr has a standard AK safety. Yech. It can't be operated from a shooting grip, it's stiff and loud, and when disengaged, it leaves a gaping hole for dirt to get into the action (although this last problem is minimized by the gun's reliability). Kreb's also has a replacement safety which can be used without altering your grip ($50).
Bolt. The Vepr has no bolt hold-open at all. You will have no indication that you're out of ammo until you pull the trigger and it goes click!. Also, the Vepr's bolt handle is on the right side of the receiver, which is awkward for you right-handed shooters.
Final Comments:
With enough modifications, the Vepr can be made into a tolerable battle rifle. But for the same money, you could get rifle that is better than the Vepr in nearly all respects. For our purposes, there's no compelling reason to buy a Vepr.
Enfield
Description:
The Enfield was the main combat rifle of the British Empire for more than 60 years, and with good reason. It is a rugged and durable rifle, and much faster to operate than any other military bolt rifle. There were many variants made, but for our purposes the No4 is the best. The earlier No1 rifles are hampered by bad sights, and the No5 jungle carbine is lacking in accuracy. There were also a number made by the Indian government which were chambered in .308, rather than .303. While the .308 is advantageous (it's a more powerful and more common cartridge), I believe that the inferior sights of the Indian rifles (they're all of the No1 variety) outweigh their better cartridge.
The .303 cartridge used by Enfields is a rimmed round, and has about 90% of the ballistic power of the .308. For our battle rifle, this is perfectly adequate. However, the rimmed ammo can cause feeding problems. To avoid these, ensure that the 2nd and 4th rounds in your stripped clips sit up on the rims of the 1st, 3rd, and 5th rounds.
For in-depth information on the Enfield, I suggest http://www.geocities.com/lee_enfield_rifles/ .
Pros:
Action. Because each round is manually fed into the chamber and extracted, the Enfield in unaffected by ammo of varying power and much less vulnerable to feeding malfunctions. When the rare malfunction does occur, the bolt action of the Enfield is far quicker and easier to clear than any semi-auto.
Sights. No 4 Enfields have two sights to choose from. One of a fast battle sight for ranges out to 300 yards, and the other is a more precise micrometer sight adjustable out to 1300 yards (some No4s have a second non-adjustable peep sight for 300-600 yards; I would avoid these in favor of micrometer sights). Because the No4 Enfield rear sight mounted behind the action and has a long barrel, the sight radius is a very impressive 29 inches, which is a definite boon to accurate shooting.
Price. You should have little trouble finding a good-quality No4 Enfield for $200. Gun shows are the best option, as you can inspect a rifle before buying it there. If you can't find any at shows, try online auctions and surplus dealers.
Cons:
Action. Because you must manually load every round, you will never be as fast with an Enfield as you could be with a semi-auto. With enough practice you can keep up an acceptable rate of fire, but you'll have to work hard to do it, and an equally skilled rifleman with a semi-auto will always be able to out-perform you. The gun can do it - the record in the "mad minute" of British rifle training (number of hits on a 24" target at 300 yards within 60 seconds) with an Enfield is an eye-opening 38, set in 1914. Just imagine what that shooter would have been capable of with a good semi-auto!
Magazine. Although the Enfield magazines are detachable, they only hold 10 rounds, and it is faster to reload the rifle with stripper clips (the mags were not designed for rapid changing). This is still slower than reloading any other battle rifle, any you'll have to practice with the stripper clips to be able to reload reasonably fast. Finally, having only ten rounds puts you at a significant disadvantage to shooters with 20 rounds at their disposal.
Age. When shopping for an Enfield, make sure to carefully check the condition of the bore and the headspace. These are old guns, and many have seen combat and lots of corrosive ammo.
Final Comments:
The Enfield is an excellent rifle, and a joy to shoot. However, it only barely meets the requirements of a battle rifle, and is only a good choice for a person who simply cannot afford anything else. If an Enfield is truly all you can afford, then get one, practice extensively with it, and save up for one of the semi-autos. A skilled shooter with a bolt-action Enfield isn't unarmed, but could be much better off.
AR-10
Description:
The AR-10, produced by Armalite (www.armalite.com), is a scaled-up AR-15 in .308 (many AR-15 parts are interchangeable with AR-10 parts). The first version was made in the 1950s and 60s, and only a few exist (only 100 semi-auto ones were ever made). The new version is what we're looking at for a battle rifle. They are available either with an AR-15-type carry handle or a flat-top for scope mounting.
Pros:
Accuracy. The AR-10 has excellent sights. Like the Enfield, it has two apertures, one for fast short-range work and the other for more precise long-range shooting. Also, the AR-10 is capable of very good mechanical accuracy - more are 1-1.5 MOA rifles.
Ergonomics. Like its brother the AR-15, the AR-10 handles fantastically. The safety, mag release, and bolt release are all quickly and easily accessible to the shooter.
Cons:
Reliability. Unfortunately, this is a real killer for the AR-10. It suffers from the same dirty operating system as the AR-15, and cannot go as long as other rifles without cleaning. Furthermore, it is not uncommon for AR-10s to have problems feeding, extracting, and (especially) ejecting shells. To run salt in the wounds, Armalite's customer service is not up to par, and parts are difficult to get.
Price. AR-10 magazines are modified M1A mags - expect to shell out at least $65 or $70 for a good one. Yowch!
Final Comments:
The AR-10 has the potential to be a great choice, but so-so reliability kills it. Reliability is the most important qualification for a battle rifle - no matter how comfortable and accurate it might be, it's only a mediocre club if it won't fire when you pull the trigger. I'd pass on the AR-10 and spend my money on a more dependable gun. Of all our rifle candidates, only the AR-10 has never been issued by any military, and that's no coincidence.
M1 Garand
Description: The Garand (named after its designer, John C. Garand) was one of the first mass-issued semi-auto military rifles. It was adopted by the US military in the 1930s, and served throughout World War II and the Korean War. It is a gas-operated rifle, and feeds from 8-round clips inserted into the top of the receiver.
Pros:
Trigger. Shooters will really appreciate the Garand's fine trigger pull. It's a two-stage affair, with a 4.5-5.5 pound pull. Designed for the true rifleman.
Sights. A long sight radius and well-designed aperture sight make the M1 a fine shooter.
Cost. At half to a third the cost of the other rifles, the M1 is a good rifle for someone on a limited budget.
Cons:
Caliber. The Garand was designed for the .30-06 cartridge. While its slightly more powerful than .308, it's significantly rarer, as it was only ever used in a few military rifles (none in active service today). Handily, a new barrel is all you need to convert your Garand to .308 (though unless you're a Garand expert, you should send it to a gunsmith to have this work done).
Clips. Obviously, the Garand's 8-round clips leave you at a disadvantage to the rifles using 20-round mags. This can be minimized with lots of practice loading. Also, the clips cannot be partially reloaded - where a rifleman with mags can easily swap a mostly-depleted mag for a full one, you'll have to shoot your clip empty before you can reload.
Final Comments:
The Garand is a treat to shoot and a great piece of Americana, as well as a very competent battle rifle. If you can get past the unfortunate 8-round clips, you'll be very happy with the Garand. If you can't afford an M1A, the Garand is a good alternative.
HK-91
Description:
Designed in the early 1950s by a team of Spanish and German engineers, the CETME/HK-91 was one of the first battle rifles chambered in 7.62x51. It uses a roller-locking operating system which is exceedingly reliable, and is the standard combat rifle for more than 50 nations worldwide. Like other battle rifles, it uses 20-round detachable magazines.
Pros:
Reliability. It will work, every time. The operating system is based on delayed blowback, and has no gas system to get dirty and clogged. Furthermore, the HK is nearly immune to parts breakage. Even the vaunted AK is not as reliable as the HK-91.
Cons:
Bolt handle. The bolt handle on the HK is a fold-down design, and located forward on the handguard. A normal handle like the FALs would be much easier to use (especially for a lefty).
Trigger. Because it is designed to withstand a 12-foot drop without firing, the trigger pull on the HK is both long and heavy, hindering accuracy.
Sights. Not too bad, but not up to the standard of the M1/M1A/FAL/AR-10.
Final Comments:
The HK-91s faults are all fairly minor, but they add up. While it's by no means a bad choice, it's not the best choice for your battle rifle. Nothing else is as reliable as the HK, and that is a major redeeming feature for it.
If you decide to get an HK, be wary of the post-ban clones (Hesse and CETME). Many have sights which are horribly misaligned (up to two feet off at 100 yards!). An original will give you far fewer problems in the long run, which is worth the extra cost.
FAL
Description:
Having been adopted by 93 different nations as a primary combat rifle, the FAL is the most common of the battle rifles. Designed by Fabrique Nationale of Belgium in the 1950s, it is a superb weapon. The best available are from DSA Arms (www.dsarms.com), and they are of excellent quality.
Pros:
Accuracy. A good FAL is a very accurate rifle - 1.5 MOA isn't uncommon at all.
Reliability. With a 7- or 11-position (depending on model) gas regulator, the FAL is very reliable.
Mags. Good 20-round FAL mags are readily available for only $8 each. Any FAL owner should seriously stock up on these while they're so cheap.
Ergonomics. Unlike the HK, the FAL's controls are quite well arranged. A lefty will find the bolt handle awkward to use, but for righties (who make up ~90% of the population) the rifle is a pleasure to use.
Cons:
Sights. Standard FAL sights are not the most precise, thanks to a large and rounded front post and some wobble in the rear sight. This can be fixed by a good gunsmith, however.
Trigger. The FAL trigger is usually fairly long and sloppy. This can also be easily fixed by a good FAL gunsmith.
Final Comments:
The FAL is a truly excellent battle rifle. Nearly everything is done right to start with, and the few remaining shortcomings are easily corrected. It's seen combat everywhere from Vietnam to the Falklands and is very much liked by its users. What more can you ask for?
M1A
Description:
The M1A (or M14, as the US military called it) is basically an improved M1 Garand which uses quick-detach box magazines. It was the successor to the Garand as a US issue rifle, but only for a few years (it was replaced by the M16).
Pros:
Reliability. The M1A goes one step beyond having an adjustable gas system - it has a self-adjusting gas system. This makes it superbly reliable.
Trigger. The M1A inherited the excellent trigger from the Garand. You'll love it.
Sights. The M1A also inherited the sights from the Garand. They're not quite as good as the AR-10's, but darn close. Made by riflemen for riflemen.
Cons:
Accuracy. The M1A doesn't have quite as much mechanical accuracy potential as the FAL, but its great sights make up for that in the field.
Bolt handle. The bolt handle on the M1A is on the right-hand side of the receiver, making it slightly less handy for righties. However, it's not a major hindrance, thanks to its good design and placement (and if you're a lefty, it's a fine bonus).
Final Comments:
The M1A is another fine battle rifle. It has no serious flaws, and only a couple minor ones. You really can't get much better than an M1A.
So...now what?
All of the top three rifles (HK-91, FAL, M1A) are mechanically fine choices. Once you have decided on which rifle to purchase, make sure to read up more on it and investigate the different models available. Avoid junky clones - you'll end up regretting it. Buy a quality gun the first time. If we are forced to fight, your life and freedom will depend on your battle rifle. Don't skimp on it!
Whichever one you choose will serve you well, as long as you practice with it. So get the one that feels the best to you, because you'll enjoy it the most and consequently practice with it the most. If you go buy a FAL or M1A and just let it sit in your closet, you'll be easily bested by a shooter with an Enfield who practices regularly.
Ok, I've got my rifle. What else do I need?
Like any other piece of complex machinery, your battle rifle will need periodic maintenance and repair. You'll need a good comprehensive cleaning kit (which should be used after every shooting session). This includes a cleaning rod, bore snake, solvent, oil, toothbrush (for those little places) and patches. Any decent gun store can set you up with everything you need.
You should also get a set of spare parts for your rifle. Do you think that in 15 years you'll be able to call up a mail-order company and order a new bolt for your high capacity semi-automatic military assault sniper weapon? Yeah, I don't think so either. Buy at least one spare for every part, and do it now. Only one little dinky part needs to break to turn your best weapon into a rather clumsy club.
If you have a semi-auto, you'll need magazines. Lots of magazines. Over time, they will break and get lost, and I expect it won't be long until detachable mags (and their associated high capacity semi-automatic military assault sniper weapons) will be strictly verbotten. We need to buy up a lifetime supply now - at least 30 mags for your gun is a good place to start. You can't have too many. Yeah, I know that's pretty expensive, especially for the M1A and AR-10. If it makes you feel better, I expect those mags will be worth their weight in gold some day (if not worth more). If you have an M1 Garand, you'll be using 8-round clips instead of magazines. Buy oodles of clips - when they eject in a fight, you won't have the time to find them, and they hold fewer rounds than detachable mags as well. How many? Start with about 600.
Last (but certainly not least), you need ammo. There's plenty of surplus military .308 on the market, which is just fine for our needs. Buy it by the case, and save some money. You should have at least a couple thousand rounds. Ten thousand is a good goal to go for. Once you have that much, stash it away and don't use it. That way you'll have a good supply in the case that ammo sales are cut off by new laws. The more ammo you have, the more you'll be able to shoot. How long do you want to be able to shoot? Buy that much ammo, then buy some more.
Now, the most important part:
Practice! Practice more! Keep on practicing! Learn to use your battle rifle, and use it well. There are many great resources for learning to shoot well, includes several excellent gun schools. Read as much as you can, and then go out and shoot as much as you can. If at all possible, take classes. Nothing compares to having an expert instructor show you what you're doing right and wrong.
Our battle rifles are, as George Washington said, Liberty's teeth. Should we be forced to fight for our liberty, we're going to need those teeth well-honed. Let me close with a quote from the movie Braveheart:
"Aye, fight - and you may die. Run and you will live - at least for a while. And dying in your beds, many years from now, would you be willing to trade all the days, from this day to that, for one chance - just one chance - to come back here and tell our enemies that - they may take our lives, but they'll never take our freedom!"
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"If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
Comments
Of course, you can argue with any of his points along the way, and some of you no doubt will. His criticism of the FAL for example, though I like the idea of $8 mags. And is the CETME trigger pull and charging handle arrangement really THAT bad? Hmmmm.
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
To err is human, to moo is bovine.
1. Based on M1 Garand, all the featurs of the Garand except takes 20 round detatchable magazines.
2. .308 Caliber.
3. Forged receiver, not cast.
4. Intregal tri-compensator, which acts as grenade launcher, flash hider and muzzle break.
5. Grenade sights.
6. Winter/grenade trigger folds out of the way when not in use.
7. Factory bipod
8. Can act as a clib or spear, if necessary
9. Can be loaded through the top, as M1A using stripper clips
10. Everyone is so hung up on FAL, H&K and M1A they don't even think of the BM59, which keeps the price down.
11. Imported by Springfield Armory 1981 to 1989, all Beretta manufacture, guaranteed collectability.
To err is human, to moo is bovine.
To err is human, to moo is bovine.
Rameleni1
JD
400 million cows can't be wrong ( EAT GRASS !!! )
I think all the previous had being outranged-outgunned..
With the "custom" one I have in mind I can hit a dime at 1000Y .
400 million cows can't be wrong ( EAT GRASS !!! )
Rameleni1
Even if millions of Americans were willing to fight (which I doubt)the impact would be one of no more than a bother to our military. At one point, a full military attack would involve tanks, naypaum (sp), nightvision, bombs, gas, delta force, on and on. We would be the Indians with bows and arrows against a force of auto rifles.
This is what our government has set out to do- make useable weapons which could be used against them illegal. I'm sure there are many who know this and would be willing to die early into the fight, and some who would not and suffer the same.
Now; if at least 75% of Americans joined in with all available weapons- the government would have to re-think it's position. But then again- if 75% of Americans simply protested, the sittuation could be achieved even without arms.
There are far too many weak minded people who have been brainwashed into thinking "guns are bad", "we the government will protect you, and we know what's best for you". Too many have turned to others for protection for too long and have lost their ability to think for themselves. They will, one day, see their mistakes, but by then it will be too late for us all. Maybe I'm wrong, but this is how I see it!
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
Edited by - offeror on 08/10/2002 22:54:11
Edited by - offeror on 08/10/2002 23:16:32
I think the Beretta BM59 is a bargain at this time. I've been picking up used mags for around $40 each, new mags for about $65. That's really no so bad when you look at the price of new surplus M14 mags. And remember, since the gun can be loaded via stripper clip from the top, that might be an option over several mags. You might check out the following site and click to see their selection of BM59s. Reese Surplus advertizes in SGN, but they always use to show the BM59 without the magazine, which probably made people think it took the 8 round Garand mag rather than the 20 round mag. The standard BM59 has an 18" barrel, but you have to add the tri-compensator to that. Or, the BM62 or BM69 is also available. The MkIV has a 20" heavy barrel. In my opinion, they are a well kept secret amoung enthusiast and much higher quality than the Springfield Armory M1A. I don't like to spread this around too much, 'cause I wanna buy another before they sell out. The web site is:
http://reesesurplus.com/
To err is human, to moo is bovine.
To err is human, to moo is bovine.
Eric S. Williams
If I'm wrong please correct me, I won't be offended.
The sound of a 12 gauge pump clears a house fatser than Rosie O eats a Big Mac !
I've lost track of whether these Berettas are slightly less expensive than the Springfield Bush gun or not. But I'm sure they're a fine rifle and it would be nice to grab a 62 and have a rarity. It might be nice to know for sure if the folder, which costs around $250, would fit an M1A, too.
As for Judge's 50 caliber, the article did say a bolt action might do, but the author much preferred a faster action. Of course, the .50 is slower than the bolt actions he was referring to. I've never been very fond of a gun that you have to practically take apart just to load the next round. But the new carbine "coming for Christmas" does look quite impressive in any case. Can you imagine firing that thing from the shoulder? You'd be staring up at the sky, in pain.
Thanks for all the good info, guys. This is helpful. I'm enamored enough now of the .308 platform, in a good semi-auto with 20 rd. mags, that I'm pretty sure there's one in my future. Frankly, I think the article is right about stocking up on ammo, and especially relatively cheap mags when you can get them. There is no way to lose money on hi-cap mags any more. I'm going to get a barrel full of M1 Carbine mags in addition to what I have as well, just to be on the safe side. And I've got quite a number of AK 30s, but next gun show in the fall I'll be looking to buy reasonable. This .308 thing is going to drive me crazy until I solve it. Those CETMEs are so cheap right now at $299 I may have to get one of those too just for a .308 backup. You can hardly beat 3 bills for a battle rifle made like a CETME, given what you're going to pay out when you finally "invest in" an M1A or Beretta BM. I'm assuming, I hope correctly, that the Beretta is similar enough to the M1A and Garand that parts will not be too big a problem even though many models are apparently discontinued or hard to get.... si?
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
Edited by - offeror on 08/11/2002 03:21:49
This thinking (of the original author) is not unlike what Fred talks about in every issue of SGN. It seems he, and several others just can't get the NATO troop thing put to rest, they think the "blue helmets" are going to be here (or already are) and we will be relying on the .308 battle rifle for such an event.
My logic tells me that if NATO ever were to really start to take over, there would be a lot of US Military personnel who don't follow in their ranks and essentially a civil war would erupt, with some folk supporting the NATO concept of World Order and other American's fighting against NATO. Myself, it's interesting reading and I hear a lot of stories about NATO occupation of the USA, but don't give it too much credit. I know a lot of military personnel who would be fighting against such an occupation. Then again, with the stories they tell, most US troop will be stationed outside the US when "They" begin their NATO takeover.
I don't look for any such thing to happen in my lifetime, but who knows.
Not that I am particularly paranoid but what really would concern me more is some form of natural calamity, such as a major earthquake (perhaps California sliding off) or a large meteorite strike, or something along those lines. Sure, the odd of any such thing happening soon are not very good. BUT it's a certainty that something along those lines will happen at some point in the future. Maybe it won't happen for several thousand years, but it might happen tomorrow. And if it happens in the next few years (not hundreds or thousands) good battle rifles will be a valuable assett.
Go ahead an laugh, I know it sounds rediculous, but Kalifornia will slide into the ocean at some point in the future. Maybe that's a long, long time away. Maybe not. It goes without saying that such an event would cause major problems, gangs, looters, refugees, etc, etc, who knows all the ramifications? It's even possible that some country (such as Red China) would decide to take advantage of the situation and invade during such a crisis. It's just impossible to say what will happen, and when, and whether or not good battle rifles will be important.
At the very least, reading such articles gives me things to consider that perhaps I hadn't considered before.
I remember the motto from years back: Be preparred!
To err is human, to moo is bovine.
Most (not all) the parts on a BM59 are M1 Garand parts. Parts shouldn't be much of a problem.
SARCO in Shotgun News has recently started selling early Italian BM59 parts sets, which will bolt up to a Garand receiver. However, the Garand receiver would have to be modified (machined by a gunsmith) for the new feed system. The early BM59s were semi-auto, the later military units Beretta built were select fire. The Reese Surplus guns are, of course, semi-auto.
The way the BM59 came into existance is, the US gave Italy several M1 Garands following WWII. By the mid 50's they were considered obsolete, so Beretta modified them to accept the 20 round mags and .308 round. The early BM59's look identical to the Garand except for the 20 round magazine. Beretta ended up buying Winchester's M1 Garand tooling and built Beretta Garands on it, and later, much of the BM59 came from that Winchester tooling via Beretta's efforts. So the original Beretta Garand is really from Winchester tooling.
Don't ley anyone tell you a BM59 is a version of the M14. The M14 came from the Garand, but the BM59 doesn't have much in common with the M14, save the fact that they both originated in the Garand.
Another option, of course, is to have someone just modify an existing Garand to take 20 round detatchable mags and the .308 cartridge. I've seen gunsmiths advertise they will do this. Some of these modifications take M14 mags, some take BM59 mags. Really, a person could have a Garand built that takes 20 round box magazines for less than $1,000.00, and while it wouldn't be a real Beretta, it would be a fine shooter. I think a whole project to get a Garand modified to take detatchable mags and the .308 round really wouldn't cost over $800.00 (as I recall) and that includes the price of the original Garand.
I have wondered if it might be possible to keep the original 30-06 chamber and modify the Garand to take BAR magazines. I think that would be really slick. I wish I could find someone who has done it, to see if it would work and the price involved.
Oh, I have one of those $299 CETME's, too. They are hard to beat for the price. But for more money they can be beat, of course. The trigger pull is terrible compared to the Garand style trigger (I think that's something H&K/CETME owners must get use to) but for the price, the CETME's are probably the best buy out there right now.
You do have to be a bit careful when buying the CETME, some of the rebuilds are better than others. Really, some are just assembled better than others, and it's something of a matter of luck (good or bad) on whether or not you get a good CETME when you order one. I recommend you look at the following site prior to buying a CETME:
http://www.geocities.com/miketheelectrician1/cetme1.html?1006706554210
To err is human, to moo is bovine.
"Not as deep as a well, or as wide as a church door, but it is enough."
8x57 mauser.
i believe more BATTLE rifles have been made in this caliber than any other.
(i know somebody will correct me if im wrong)(or not)
barto
the hard stuff we do right away - the impossible takes a little longer
Usualy is not the tool or the size of it ,its the user and the aplication .....
Situation:
This big guy comes from the bushes and pins us down with M60 fire
we have no choice but to drop ouw weapons and surrender to him,
Mistake he comes out of the bush toward us carring the mule....
A companion comes from hiding (no ammo) , he turns weapon toward him
fires a burst ,hits his leg he falls , I went for the rusty astra
.380 on my back drop on the floor fire 3 shots ,one hits stomach one hits chest one hits the head ,the guy drops like a lead brick....
He was not able to reaquire me with the heavy munition ladden M60
mule in time, he is dead I am not ,( better him than me) he died for his country I live for mine....
the .50 the .308 the M16 was of NO use in that situation .....
NOR the M60 to the enemy.....
As I say ,the proper tool for the proper time ,from a .177 pelgun
to a 20MM vulcan ... what matters is how you use it......
That .380 saved many lives ......
as might a .22 hitting a "dime" at 50Y
JD
400 million cows can't be wrong ( EAT GRASS !!! )
If you can verify ready availability of that caliber ammo in this country I wouldn't fault you. But he was talking about easy availability of ammo when selecting caliber, and if the "many" guns made in the 8 are overseas, he might have a point.
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
As for me, I don't expect to get a CETME for $299 by mail order anyway, for practical reasons. I don't have an FFL, nobody on GB sells them under about $369, and by the time you add the fees you're closing in on over $400. So the best thing, given the fact that boeboe says the quality is slightly variable, would be to simply handle one at a gun show, pick out a good example, and avoid some of the excess fees. I saw a beaut back in March but the guy wanted too much for it at the time -- you know how they've dropped in price in the last few months.
As for the Beretta vs. the M1A, money does matter, so I'll be looking for value. The BM62 sporter looks like a good config, but it is $1650, just like the 59. The M1A Scout also whispers my name, but the Bush gun is cheaper, of course. I'm not going to buy a project gun and send it off to a gunsmith for mag or caliber changes, so it will have to be pretty much ready, with minor adjustments, out of the box. We shall see what we shall see. But I do hate to miss out on the value of the $300 CETME, in the meantime, even if it costs a non-FFLer like me $375 at a gun show.
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
Quod principi placuit legis habet vigorem.Semper Fidelis
Edited by - shootist3006 on 08/12/2002 02:23:52
Best!!
Rugster
I probably shouldn't mention this, but Reese Surplus does have a nice lay-a-way plan on their Berettas. Something like $360 down and the rest over a year's period. I forget the exact figures. I'd recommend you ask them plenty of questions before you buy. But I can attest to the fact that these Berettas are very high quality rifles, not to mention very collectable.
Believe me, I don't have any affiliation with Reese, and honestly have never bought anything from them (but I plan to). I bought my BM59 at gunbroker auction.
As I said before, Reese advertizes in Shotgun News and has for years. They use to have display ads that showed the BM59, but showed it without the 20 round magazine attached. Most people who looked at the photo probably figured it was a Beretta Garand with the 8 round mag. Their ads have gotten smaller, and no longer show the photo.
If you go to look in any standard price guides for them, you will find them under Springfield Armory rather than Beretta, as Springfield Armory was the imported between 81 and 89. I believe Springfield Armory was not the only importer, and am not sure who imported those that Reese Surplus has.
To err is human, to moo is bovine.
I consider them in the same range as the enforcer .30
Problematic , requires more time for proper target adquisition ,improper feel and valance .
File off the bolt lock and let the enemy have it so
he kills itself with it! ..
JD
400 million cows can't be wrong ( EAT GRASS !!! )
I consider them in the same range as the enforcer .30
Problematic , requires more time for proper target adquisition ,improper feel and valance .
File off the bolt lock and let the enemy have it so
he kills itself with it! ..
JD
400 million cows can't be wrong ( EAT GRASS !!! )
I wouldn't use layaway unless I needed to put a lock on a rifle in severely limited quantity that I just had to have. In this case, maybe the 62 would be worth it, but I hate taking time to pay for something that's sitting up on a shelf. I've only ever done it once. I had just got a new tech writing job at Magnavox on a Dept. of Defense contract. The very same week, I found a brand new Type A Uzi Carbine hanging on the wall of the local shop, owned but never fired by a collector, bought new in 82, with several mint mags, folding stock, the whole 9. I was glad they gave me 60 days to pay it off, and I used chunks of my first few paychecks to get the job done. Damn, that was the finest 9mm Uzi carb I ever expect to own.
Judge --
As for the folder, it makes for easier carry and stores in a smaller place, easier to carry in a small trunk where space is at a premium, and once you pop the stock out you've got a full-length stock AND a pistol grip to steady your shots. It's only if you shoot the model folded, in spray and pray mode, and expect accurate hits, that it becomes a highly questionable concept. Personally, I think it's neat, even if it's kept in reserve and only installed when needed. I've got an M1 Carbine and I go back & forth between a folder and the straight stock every now and then. It's a bonus.
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
I agree with all your sentiments. This is more in the nature of a "what if" scenario in which the "enemy" is non-specific and unknown. I don't disagree at all with regard to our military men and women. Proud as hell of all of them, would fight by their side and trade my old tired life for one of their young energetic ones -- and I would not expect them to follow orders to perpetrate an attack on their own people in any case.
My guess is that there are out-of-touch zealots in every corner of every agency, who if left to their most paranoid fantasies could be a danger to domestic tranquility, but I'm expecting leveller heads to keep those who were born without a moral compass in check.
Nevertheless, When the BATF or FBI do stupid things like dissident-baiting and entrapment, you wonder sometimes what the collective IQ is, and whether they are capable of provoking some sort of weird event among principled, law abiding Americans. But I agree with you and have long held that the anti-gunners forget the need for guns to protect home and family during natural disasters and other such periods of widespread social disorder. There have been cases where American groups like Blacks or Jews have needed the Second Amendment as well for protection against prejudice -- and the Blacks even needed to arm themselves to make a strong statement to counter J. Edgar's paranoia.
But I assume, usually, that the FBI is on our side, at least by law. Most domestic misunderstandings can be straightened out in court, so long as you don't have a seige against a group, overreaction by law enforcement, and a botched shootout. Add the National Guard into that kind of incompetence and you could have a bigger mess. Hopefully, they are learning something from these past big mistakes about how to treat Americans on American soil who are NOT violent criminals.
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
Edited by - offeror on 08/12/2002 14:01:40
If I'm wrong please correct me, I won't be offended.
The sound of a 12 gauge pump clears a house fatser than Rosie O eats a Big Mac !
Quod principi placuit legis habet vigorem.Semper Fidelis
i just ordered 1400 rds.@ $4.50/70 rds.
i really dont think you can buy '06 for that kind of money.
i have a hakim that will eat this at a phenominal rate.
like i said- jmho
barto
the hard stuff we do right away - the impossible takes a little longer
"...Abby someone""Abby who"..."Abby Normal"
Quod principi placuit legis habet vigorem.Semper Fidelis
Quod principi placuit legis habet vigorem.Semper Fidelis
Saxon --
I think that's the point of the author's whole scenario. That was my clue that he's talking about an effective action against a vastly superior force -- which is what makes this all such a far-fetched exercise. I think you've just done an excellent job of debunking the whole theory. I agree that the scope is the key to an effective 500 yard shot, and unless you can find a semi-auto capable of living up to that scope's potential, a good bolt action is the way to go. He is talking about sniping men who have cover and/or armor, whether body armor or armored vehicles. This makes his "what-if" even more challenging and more a job for a sniper, the kind of shooter who can pick somebody off in an instant when their head bobs up. This also requires the precision of a scope, a very steady hand, and an excellent rifle.
Everything about this article has an improbable ring to it, but if you grant a videogame-like scenario wherein we are occupied by an army of some kind (ESCAPE FROM NEW YORK III !), I suppose a full battle rifle caliber, at least, does make sense for this kind of work. Thank god he is talking 500 yards rather than a thousand. Then we'd have yet another conversation about the possibility of a hit. There's an interesting article about bullet drop in one of the gun mags this month. I think I'll go look for it. I can't recall if it had any relevance or not...
It does seem to me, though, that a decent shooter should be able to outfit a good rifle system with the proper scope and bipod to get 500 yard hits with the rifle on a good rest. Maybe a more interesting conversation would be, what rifle-scope-caliber combinations are capable of reliably dialing in hits on target at 500 for an average shooter. That, I would enjoy hearing.
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878