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I think y'all need to start taking Fred's articles in SNG just a bit more seriously. When those dirty, commie blue helmeted NATO troops start rollin' in (not to mention circling overhead in their black whirly-birds) ya need to be ready! Shucks, even Saxon knows what it's like to have them black whirly-birds after ya!
Okay, maybe not. My only thinking is a person needs to be ready for any form of calamity, be it aliens, mother nature, tyranical government, bear attack or blue helmets. To me, a battle rifle is the one firearm you would take if you could choose only one rifle to stake your life on, taking into account any possible situation you might find yourself in. Bolt actions and scopes are nice at a distance, but not too practical for close in, fast action battles. The .308 battle rifle might not be as good as a .223 or 7.62X39 for closer work, but it would do in a pinch. Close in, it might even be better that the less powerful guns if you need a club, or have an option to use a bayonet.
The idea of 500 yard shooting is that you'd have to take advantage of any form of superiority you might have, and do your best not to engage the enemy at close range, if at all possible. Really, getting hit with a .223 at ranges beyond 500 yards is about like getting hit with a .22 long or long rifle. Light body armor would greatly reduce your chance of getting killed by a .223 at those ranges. The .308 has more energy at 500 yards than the .223 does at the muzzle. If you were going to choose one caliber and rifle, what would it be?
boe--
I've already got one, actually more than one. A Norinco type 56s AK-47 with lots of loaded mags, and an M1 Carbine in the car trunk, with "a goodly number" of loaded mags (could use some more reliable ones cheap).
When I buy a .308 it will be in addition to these, not instead of.
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
Actually I think the blue helmets are already here.I've heard from several "non-paranoid" types that some of the post 9/11, F-18 fly overs actually had NATO pilots at the controls.
www.waveformwear.com
The new wave in free expression.
One thought about the legality of the BM59 with a folding stock: From my conversation with Reese Surplus, I understand that the rifles being sold are definately preban (manufactured prior to the Assault Weapons Ban ("AWB") of 1994). However, I also understand that the rifles are not actually the paratrooper model, that is, the ones with folding stocks did come from the factory that way. The folding stocks were made in the Czech Republic more recently, and Reese has them available to be installed on the rifle, by them or the buyer, if the buyer so chooses. The factory folders had plastic pistol grips, but they are no longer available from Reese (if they ever were). The Czech ones have a wooden pistol grip. Anyway, my question is: How does this square with the AWB???
Correction: I should have said that the rifles being sold by Reese did NOT come with folding stocks and folding stocks were not installed prior to Sep 1994. Am I missing something about how this can be done at this time?
If the rifle was already in assault weapons configuration prior to the 9-94 ban, the configuration can be changed to add additional items (or remove them). So, assuming the rifle had (for example) a bayonet lug and a flash hider, other options (such as the folding stock and pistol grip, or grenade launcher) could legally be added to the rifle.
The law prohibiting the manufacture of assault weapons doesn't prohibit you from changing the configuration of an existing assault weapon. The reason is, it's already an assault weapon. You cannot take an assault weapon and turn it into an assault weapon, because it already is one. So changing the combination or quantity of assault weapon features on an existing assault weapon does not change it's status. In short, you can add the folder to a firearm that already existed as an assault weapon prior to the ban.
The thinking would be along the lines of (example) you can't take an alcoholic beverage and turn it into an alcoholic beverage by adding more alcohol. It was an alcoholic beverage in the first place, so adding more alcohol really hasn't changed it's original status (except for perhaps states that differentiate between 3.2 beer/wine and "hard stuff").
Also, the assault weapons ban included "flash hiders, or barrels with threads to accomodate a flash hider". So even if the assault rifle didn't have a flash hider, if it had a threaded barrel that would accept a flash hider, one could be added, along with a grenade launcher, if you like.
Another example, you could take a pre-ban AR15 with a bayonet lug and flash hider, and add the collapsible stock if you wanted. Or if you took the same weapon with the collapisble stock (and pistol grip) you could put an upper with a bull barrel on it with no flash hider or bayonet lug. It has remained an assault weapon.
Interesting to me, you could take the BM59 with bayonet lug, flash hider and grenade launcher. Add the folding stock with pistol grip. That would give you all five of the "evil", nasty assault weapon features on the same weapon at the same time. How many other assault rifles could you do that to? And how "evil" do you want to get?
This is a gunbroker listing on a BM62 with the Beretta folding stock (has the original Beretta pistol grip). Not that I think the original folding stock would make it worth $750 over what you could buy a new BM62 and Reese folder for...
Boeboe, you're right on the money. Because the BM59 is based on the M-1, I assumed (incorretly) that is was not classified as an assault weapon because,like the M-1, it did not have enough evil features. I paged up to take a closer look at the photos, and sure enough, it has more than enough characteristics to make it very evil indeed - end of story. Thanks for doing my thinking for me. I think I'll get one.
Shootist you're killing me!!!!! You've said it three times here and no one has commented on it....I guess they are not facing the truth. Who was it who said, "The truth sometimes hurts but it doesn't make it any less the truth?" The M1 is still the standard by which all others are compared. Incidently boeboe, I think that cpermd has a BM-59 and he too thought very highly of it. Beach
Boeboe --
You are precisely right. It's the same reason you can put a new collapsing stock on your CAR pre-ban, but not on your CAR post-ban. I'm not sure if that pistol grip in the auction photo is wood or plastic. Looks like it might be plastic, but it could be laminated wood. It's a nice gun at auction, but his BuyItNow price indicates his reserve is probably close to $2,000 -- a bit rich for my blood at the moment.
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
Now you're going to force me to send off enough for a down payment on another one, before they run out. I knew that would happen if I opened my mouth! I just can't decide which model to get next.
When you get it, drop a note here to let me know what you think. I'm sure you'll take one look at it and realize the quality it second to none.
offeror,
The one listed with the folding stock does have the plastic pistol grip, and is a genuine Beretta stock. But for that kind of money, the folding stock that Reese sells along with one of their new models seems like a more resonable approach. As a matter of practicallity, I think the fixed stock is really better. It's just that the folders look so good.
beach --
Shootist is like the guy in the church choir who sings one note -- but he sings it extremely well. I think we all appreciate Shootist's opinion about the Garand -- we've certainly had plenty of opportunity.
Personally, I've enjoyed this thread, learned a great deal more about the pre-ban Beretta, and the fact that it is NOT an M1A clone but in fact largely a Garand with box mags. Pretty fascinating gun on its own merits. Even though, to its everlasting shame, it is not a true Garand.
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
boe --
I agree on all counts. A fixed stock is a better approach on a long-distance gun -- a folder makes more sense on a mid-range assault rifle. Still, they DO look so good, and I like the pistol grip concept. I agree about the auction. Another case of too baggage on the opening bid. Unless I'm wrong, and there is a heck of a good reserve bargain to be had, my guess is this is a "top dollar" opener -- sadly.
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
How many .308 does it take to beat a M1A2 tank which can engage targets with its 125mm and effectively kill them at ranges of 4,000 meters? The only disadvantage is that the tank optics system can only identify targets(friendly or enemy) at 2000 - 2500 meters.
Uh-oh, forgot to at that it has two M240 machineguns(in .308) that spit out rounds at over 1,200 per minute. Then you have to contend with the .50 cal. machine gun that reaches out and touches you effectively at 1000 to 1500 meters. Throw in Thermal imaging sights and you can't hide!(unless you are cold dead!)
Comments
Okay, maybe not. My only thinking is a person needs to be ready for any form of calamity, be it aliens, mother nature, tyranical government, bear attack or blue helmets. To me, a battle rifle is the one firearm you would take if you could choose only one rifle to stake your life on, taking into account any possible situation you might find yourself in. Bolt actions and scopes are nice at a distance, but not too practical for close in, fast action battles. The .308 battle rifle might not be as good as a .223 or 7.62X39 for closer work, but it would do in a pinch. Close in, it might even be better that the less powerful guns if you need a club, or have an option to use a bayonet.
The idea of 500 yard shooting is that you'd have to take advantage of any form of superiority you might have, and do your best not to engage the enemy at close range, if at all possible. Really, getting hit with a .223 at ranges beyond 500 yards is about like getting hit with a .22 long or long rifle. Light body armor would greatly reduce your chance of getting killed by a .223 at those ranges. The .308 has more energy at 500 yards than the .223 does at the muzzle. If you were going to choose one caliber and rifle, what would it be?
Fun to have these discussions, anyway.
To err is human, to moo is bovine.
I've already got one, actually more than one. A Norinco type 56s AK-47 with lots of loaded mags, and an M1 Carbine in the car trunk, with "a goodly number" of loaded mags (could use some more reliable ones cheap).
When I buy a .308 it will be in addition to these, not instead of.
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
www.waveformwear.com
The new wave in free expression.
If the rifle was already in assault weapons configuration prior to the 9-94 ban, the configuration can be changed to add additional items (or remove them). So, assuming the rifle had (for example) a bayonet lug and a flash hider, other options (such as the folding stock and pistol grip, or grenade launcher) could legally be added to the rifle.
The law prohibiting the manufacture of assault weapons doesn't prohibit you from changing the configuration of an existing assault weapon. The reason is, it's already an assault weapon. You cannot take an assault weapon and turn it into an assault weapon, because it already is one. So changing the combination or quantity of assault weapon features on an existing assault weapon does not change it's status. In short, you can add the folder to a firearm that already existed as an assault weapon prior to the ban.
The thinking would be along the lines of (example) you can't take an alcoholic beverage and turn it into an alcoholic beverage by adding more alcohol. It was an alcoholic beverage in the first place, so adding more alcohol really hasn't changed it's original status (except for perhaps states that differentiate between 3.2 beer/wine and "hard stuff").
Also, the assault weapons ban included "flash hiders, or barrels with threads to accomodate a flash hider". So even if the assault rifle didn't have a flash hider, if it had a threaded barrel that would accept a flash hider, one could be added, along with a grenade launcher, if you like.
Another example, you could take a pre-ban AR15 with a bayonet lug and flash hider, and add the collapsible stock if you wanted. Or if you took the same weapon with the collapisble stock (and pistol grip) you could put an upper with a bull barrel on it with no flash hider or bayonet lug. It has remained an assault weapon.
Interesting to me, you could take the BM59 with bayonet lug, flash hider and grenade launcher. Add the folding stock with pistol grip. That would give you all five of the "evil", nasty assault weapon features on the same weapon at the same time. How many other assault rifles could you do that to? And how "evil" do you want to get?
To err is human, to moo is bovine.
http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=4902902
To err is human, to moo is bovine.
You are precisely right. It's the same reason you can put a new collapsing stock on your CAR pre-ban, but not on your CAR post-ban. I'm not sure if that pistol grip in the auction photo is wood or plastic. Looks like it might be plastic, but it could be laminated wood. It's a nice gun at auction, but his BuyItNow price indicates his reserve is probably close to $2,000 -- a bit rich for my blood at the moment.
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
Now you're going to force me to send off enough for a down payment on another one, before they run out. I knew that would happen if I opened my mouth! I just can't decide which model to get next.
When you get it, drop a note here to let me know what you think. I'm sure you'll take one look at it and realize the quality it second to none.
offeror,
The one listed with the folding stock does have the plastic pistol grip, and is a genuine Beretta stock. But for that kind of money, the folding stock that Reese sells along with one of their new models seems like a more resonable approach. As a matter of practicallity, I think the fixed stock is really better. It's just that the folders look so good.
To err is human, to moo is bovine.
Shootist is like the guy in the church choir who sings one note -- but he sings it extremely well. I think we all appreciate Shootist's opinion about the Garand -- we've certainly had plenty of opportunity.
Personally, I've enjoyed this thread, learned a great deal more about the pre-ban Beretta, and the fact that it is NOT an M1A clone but in fact largely a Garand with box mags. Pretty fascinating gun on its own merits. Even though, to its everlasting shame, it is not a true Garand.
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
I agree on all counts. A fixed stock is a better approach on a long-distance gun -- a folder makes more sense on a mid-range assault rifle. Still, they DO look so good, and I like the pistol grip concept. I agree about the auction. Another case of too baggage on the opening bid. Unless I'm wrong, and there is a heck of a good reserve bargain to be had, my guess is this is a "top dollar" opener -- sadly.
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
Uh-oh, forgot to at that it has two M240 machineguns(in .308) that spit out rounds at over 1,200 per minute. Then you have to contend with the .50 cal. machine gun that reaches out and touches you effectively at 1000 to 1500 meters. Throw in Thermal imaging sights and you can't hide!(unless you are cold dead!)
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