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quote:Originally posted by SCOUT5
quote:Originally posted by 96harley
Thank you Mr. Perfect...I was going explain it as you did. Again thank you brother.
Nards....It's commonly referred to as FAITH. I live by it and though imperfect and not man made but formed from the dust in God's image, I fall far short of His perfection. When Christ entered the picture things changed for hell bound guys like me. Have a good evening my friend.
Weather one has faith in god or one doesn't should be separate from their belief of how accurate they believe the writing of the bible to be, particularly the old testament. The bible was written not by god, but by men. It was also rewritten by men, organized by men, edited by men, and published by men. It is simply a book written by men. As it is published here in the USA it is not even in chronological order.
To take from the old testament that god has deemed the Jewish race is a superior race and all other races must accept and foster this belief or be damned is not anything I personally could see a fair and just god as demanding.
...snip...
Why is this amazing? As the historical writings were compiled by men, sorted by men, rewritten by men and all done by the same men at the request of king or another it isn't amazing that the writings agree with each other it is inevitable.
The bible is what it is, but it also is not what it's not.
Fortunately, how God operates is not subject to what you or anyone else feels how he should operate, and I think it quite comical that any human would assume the position of authority to tell God what is or is not just. I think there's an entire book on that, actually... starts with J end with B.
I'm not going to try to refute all your error regarding how the bible was collected and/or preserved, because that information is freely available for anyone willing to seriously investigate it, but I will answer your question. How is it amazing? Try this, get ten people in a room (forum?? [:D]) See what controversial topic you can get them all to agree on. Try this one... "Is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob the creator of the world?" Now do it with 40. Now make sure the cross section of people is as I described it.
Some will die in hot pursuit
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by SCOUT5
quote:Originally posted by 96harley
Thank you Mr. Perfect...I was going explain it as you did. Again thank you brother.
Nards....It's commonly referred to as FAITH. I live by it and though imperfect and not man made but formed from the dust in God's image, I fall far short of His perfection. When Christ entered the picture things changed for hell bound guys like me. Have a good evening my friend.
Weather one has faith in god or one doesn't should be separate from their belief of how accurate they believe the writing of the bible to be, particularly the old testament. The bible was written not by god, but by men. It was also rewritten by men, organized by men, edited by men, and published by men. It is simply a book written by men. As it is published here in the USA it is not even in chronological order.
To take from the old testament that god has deemed the Jewish race is a superior race and all other races must accept and foster this belief or be damned is not anything I personally could see a fair and just god as demanding.
...snip...
Why is this amazing? As the historical writings were compiled by men, sorted by men, rewritten by men and all done by the same men at the request of king or another it isn't amazing that the writings agree with each other it is inevitable.
The bible is what it is, but it also is not what it's not.
Fortunately, how God operates is not subject to what you or anyone else feels how he should operate, and I think it quite comical that any human would assume the position of authority to tell God what is or is not just. I think there's an entire book on that, actually... starts with J end with B.
I'm not going to try to refute all your error regarding how the bible was collected and/or preserved, because that information is freely available for anyone willing to seriously investigate it, but I will answer your question. How is it amazing? Try this, get ten people in a room (forum?? [:D]) See what controversial topic you can get them all to agree on. Try this one... "Is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob the creator of the world?" Now do it with 40. Now make sure the cross section of people is as I described it.
Exactly my point.
As for the freely available information about the how the bible was collected and preserved, that is what I did investigate and is the information I used to I came to my opinion it is a man written document. Did it have spiritual guidance along the way, maybe, how much of that existed is actually reflected in the final product I would have no way of knowing, and beyond blind faith, neither does anyone else.
As for the creator or how he operates, each man to his own opinion I say. What I am really discussing here is using the bible, particularly the old testament, as an excuse or a reason to support Israel, monetarily and militarily.
quote:Originally posted by SCOUT5
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by SCOUT5
quote:Originally posted by 96harley
Thank you Mr. Perfect...I was going explain it as you did. Again thank you brother.
Nards....It's commonly referred to as FAITH. I live by it and though imperfect and not man made but formed from the dust in God's image, I fall far short of His perfection. When Christ entered the picture things changed for hell bound guys like me. Have a good evening my friend.
Weather one has faith in god or one doesn't should be separate from their belief of how accurate they believe the writing of the bible to be, particularly the old testament. The bible was written not by god, but by men. It was also rewritten by men, organized by men, edited by men, and published by men. It is simply a book written by men. As it is published here in the USA it is not even in chronological order.
To take from the old testament that god has deemed the Jewish race is a superior race and all other races must accept and foster this belief or be damned is not anything I personally could see a fair and just god as demanding.
...snip...
Why is this amazing? As the historical writings were compiled by men, sorted by men, rewritten by men and all done by the same men at the request of king or another it isn't amazing that the writings agree with each other it is inevitable.
The bible is what it is, but it also is not what it's not.
Fortunately, how God operates is not subject to what you or anyone else feels how he should operate, and I think it quite comical that any human would assume the position of authority to tell God what is or is not just. I think there's an entire book on that, actually... starts with J end with B.
I'm not going to try to refute all your error regarding how the bible was collected and/or preserved, because that information is freely available for anyone willing to seriously investigate it, but I will answer your question. How is it amazing? Try this, get ten people in a room (forum?? [:D]) See what controversial topic you can get them all to agree on. Try this one... "Is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob the creator of the world?" Now do it with 40. Now make sure the cross section of people is as I described it.
Exactly my point.
As for the freely available information about the how the bible was collected and preserved, that is what I did investigate and is the information I used to I came to my opinion it is a man written document. Did it have spiritual guidance along the way, maybe, how much of that existed is actually reflected in the final product I would have no way of knowing, and beyond blind faith, neither does anyone else.
As for the creator or how he operates, each man to his own opinion I say. What I am really discussing here is using the bible, particularly the old testament, as an excuse or a reason to support Israel, monetarily and militarily.
If you think that is exactly your point, I can only marvel at how far you actually missed it. And if your research has shown you that, you have either carefully picked and chosen your sources or you're being entirely disingenuous.
Some will die in hot pursuit
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
quote:Originally posted by SCOUT5
Weather one has faith in god or one doesn't should be separate from their belief of how accurate they believe the writing of the bible to be, particularly the old testament.
Well, for Christianity, that is more or less correct. The purpose of Natural Revelation is to bring all men to a knowledge of God, whether access to a bible is present, or not.
The bible was written not by god, but by men.
The bible was written by men, but the bible says that the men wrote as they were moved by God. You can either accept that, or not, but it is neither contradictory nor impossible.
It was also rewritten by men, organized by men, edited by men, and published by men.
Yes, that is a fact. Your point is what ? That it would therefore be impossible for the original autographs be preserved in meaning and context ? That's a pretty long reach.
It is simply a book written by men.
An easy thing to say, but what have you proven that really means ?
As it is published here in the USA it is not even in chronological order.
So what ?
To take from the old testament that god has deemed the Jewish race is a superior race and all other races must accept and foster this belief or be damned is not anything I personally could see a fair and just god as demanding.
Good. The bible says nothing of the sort. That is actually a very strange conclusion, given the texts....is that something you figured out, or were you taught that ?
I can however see a race of people writing such things and then pushing to have this belief sold to the world.
It would be one thing if that were the case. But it is not.
The Jews do this with the bible and the Muslims do it with the Koran.
Now you are wrong twice. Not making any progress here...[;)]
I don't blame them for doing this, hell why not, obviously it's working. I just can't understand otherwise rational people accepting it as gospel.
Funny, I would have absolutely no problem blaming anybody for doing such a thing !
While I have nothing against the Jews, or any race of people for that matter, I do not accept they are superior to me or that my tax dollars need to be spent due to a misguided interpretation of a book written primarily by Jews.
I think you need to re-focus, you are running on foolish.No offense intended.
If the USA needs to deal with Israel as an ally then so be it. But remove the religious part of the discussion when it comes to spending my tax dollars and sending Americans to war.
I would beware of anybody selling death from a Christian franchise.
As another poster has already remarked, "The bible is what it is, but it also is not what it's not."
References available, upon request.
I am not going to respond to your line by line refutation, as quite frankly most of it makes no sense.
As for references, I am sure you can cite references you believe support your position, just as I can, until we get tired of citing them to each other. I learned at an early age I could cite scriptures to back any point I so desired. I did this by reading the new and old testament (King James version) cover to cover twice by the time I was 15 and watching varies assorted scripture spouters do exactly that.
What I find interesting is that there are many other writings out there that the authors claim to have been written with god's guidance and yet, IIRC, you have refuted them in past threads. Of course the writing you reference to refute them is the old testament. If you can accept one as accurate, why is it you can not accept others?
Everyone worships something. They worship money, fame, jobs, hobbies, or practically anything. I choose to worship God. A bible believer since a child, I choose to put my faith in God and his book. Some have more faith in a stoplight than God Almighty. The best thing about this post and those before it is; we all have a choice and the freedom to exercise that choice. You either believe or don't believe. I find it interesting that those who question or advise the faithful have not been within the four walls of a church but know all about it.
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by nards444
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by SCOUT5
quote:Originally posted by 96harley
I read the book boys and Israel wins in the end along with all the others who have put theirs souls in God's hands.
Exactly who wrote that book? What were their religious and ethnic associations? Where in the book that follows is it written that God plays favorites and one ethnic race is superior to another?
I have often wondered why people accept they pray to a fair and just God, yet also accept they belong to, in their God's eyes, an inferior race and must support the superior race to avoid the wrath of their fair and just god.
Over 40 authors, over the span of 1500 years or more, ranging from kings to fishermen to field hands, living on 3 different continents. And they all seem to have agreed with one another. Quite amazing actually.
I dont want to discount anything. But everything you said including the fact that anything man makes is going to be imperfect and the bible went through a couple languages to get to english, leads me to be, well I dont want to skeptical but maybe take it for what it is. Ive always viewed it as guidebook, if the document was 100% correct we shouldnt be eating lobster or pigs either.
Anything man makes? Couple of languages to get to english? I think you'd best do some investigation of your own, you're sounding quite foolish.
Ignorance is bliss for some I guess. Might want to try education. The bible was written in hebrew/aramac and greek, translated into latin, then translated into english. If you were educated you would understand things do not directly translate between languages.
quote:Originally posted by nards444
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by nards444
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by SCOUT5
quote:Originally posted by 96harley
I read the book boys and Israel wins in the end along with all the others who have put theirs souls in God's hands.
Exactly who wrote that book? What were their religious and ethnic associations? Where in the book that follows is it written that God plays favorites and one ethnic race is superior to another?
I have often wondered why people accept they pray to a fair and just God, yet also accept they belong to, in their God's eyes, an inferior race and must support the superior race to avoid the wrath of their fair and just god.
Over 40 authors, over the span of 1500 years or more, ranging from kings to fishermen to field hands, living on 3 different continents. And they all seem to have agreed with one another. Quite amazing actually.
I dont want to discount anything. But everything you said including the fact that anything man makes is going to be imperfect and the bible went through a couple languages to get to english, leads me to be, well I dont want to skeptical but maybe take it for what it is. Ive always viewed it as guidebook, if the document was 100% correct we shouldnt be eating lobster or pigs either.
Anything man makes? Couple of languages to get to english? I think you'd best do some investigation of your own, you're sounding quite foolish.
Ignorance is bliss for some I guess. Might want to try education. The bible was written in hebrew/aramac and greek, translated into latin, then translated into english. If you were educated you would understand things do not directly translate between languages.
Yes, apparently for you it is quite bliss. But, allow me to fill you in anyway. There are literally hundreds of modern English translations that have been translated directly from the original Greek, Hebrew (and Chaldean). And starting with John Rodgers (in 1537!!!) the entire bible has been translated into English directly from the source languages. Of course there were earlier direct translations of the New Testament only. And today, if I want to, I can compare any English translation to the source text with just the click of a button.
Some will die in hot pursuit
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by nards444
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by nards444
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by SCOUT5
quote:Originally posted by 96harley
I read the book boys and Israel wins in the end along with all the others who have put theirs souls in God's hands.
Exactly who wrote that book? What were their religious and ethnic associations? Where in the book that follows is it written that God plays favorites and one ethnic race is superior to another?
I have often wondered why people accept they pray to a fair and just God, yet also accept they belong to, in their God's eyes, an inferior race and must support the superior race to avoid the wrath of their fair and just god.
Over 40 authors, over the span of 1500 years or more, ranging from kings to fishermen to field hands, living on 3 different continents. And they all seem to have agreed with one another. Quite amazing actually.
I dont want to discount anything. But everything you said including the fact that anything man makes is going to be imperfect and the bible went through a couple languages to get to english, leads me to be, well I dont want to skeptical but maybe take it for what it is. Ive always viewed it as guidebook, if the document was 100% correct we shouldnt be eating lobster or pigs either.
Anything man makes? Couple of languages to get to english? I think you'd best do some investigation of your own, you're sounding quite foolish.
Ignorance is bliss for some I guess. Might want to try education. The bible was written in hebrew/aramac and greek, translated into latin, then translated into english. If you were educated you would understand things do not directly translate between languages.
Yes, apparently for you it is quite bliss. But, allow me to fill you in anyway. There are literally hundreds of modern English translations that have been translated directly from the original Greek, Hebrew (and Chaldean). And starting with John Rodgers (in 1537!!!) the entire bible has been translated into English directly from the source languages. Of course there were earlier direct translations of the New Testament only. And today, if I want to, I can compare any English translation to the source text with just the click of a button.
Ok thanks you proved my point. Im not saying it takes away or adds anything. The fact is words, sentence structure does not translate exactly from language to language, thats a fact along with the fact the bible has been through a few languages before english the last being latin. When you translate languages in case you didnt take that class, you lose words, gain words, and change sentence structure.
quote:Originally posted by nards444
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by nards444
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by nards444
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by SCOUT5
quote:Originally posted by 96harley
I read the book boys and Israel wins in the end along with all the others who have put theirs souls in God's hands.
Exactly who wrote that book? What were their religious and ethnic associations? Where in the book that follows is it written that God plays favorites and one ethnic race is superior to another?
I have often wondered why people accept they pray to a fair and just God, yet also accept they belong to, in their God's eyes, an inferior race and must support the superior race to avoid the wrath of their fair and just god.
Over 40 authors, over the span of 1500 years or more, ranging from kings to fishermen to field hands, living on 3 different continents. And they all seem to have agreed with one another. Quite amazing actually.
I dont want to discount anything. But everything you said including the fact that anything man makes is going to be imperfect and the bible went through a couple languages to get to english, leads me to be, well I dont want to skeptical but maybe take it for what it is. Ive always viewed it as guidebook, if the document was 100% correct we shouldnt be eating lobster or pigs either.
Anything man makes? Couple of languages to get to english? I think you'd best do some investigation of your own, you're sounding quite foolish.
Ignorance is bliss for some I guess. Might want to try education. The bible was written in hebrew/aramac and greek, translated into latin, then translated into english. If you were educated you would understand things do not directly translate between languages.
Yes, apparently for you it is quite bliss. But, allow me to fill you in anyway. There are literally hundreds of modern English translations that have been translated directly from the original Greek, Hebrew (and Chaldean). And starting with John Rodgers (in 1537!!!) the entire bible has been translated into English directly from the source languages. Of course there were earlier direct translations of the New Testament only. And today, if I want to, I can compare any English translation to the source text with just the click of a button.
Ok thanks you proved my point. Im not saying it takes away or adds anything. The fact is words, sentence structure does not translate exactly from language to language, thats a fact along with the fact the bible has been through a few languages before english the last being latin. When you translate languages in case you didnt take that class, you lose words, gain words, and change sentence structure.
Of course it doesn't, anyone who would think otherwise is a fool. But that's why any good scholar doesn't rely solely on an English translation, or any translation for that matter. But translations into languages that are more precise than english (say Hebrew to Greek) can give great insights in how to understand a text. And there are many people who are experts in both the source languages and the language into which they are translating. And while I am not, I can use several tools to check any translation work to see if it stands up to scrutiny.
Some will die in hot pursuit
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by nards444
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by nards444
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by nards444
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by SCOUT5
quote:Originally posted by 96harley
I read the book boys and Israel wins in the end along with all the others who have put theirs souls in God's hands.
Exactly who wrote that book? What were their religious and ethnic associations? Where in the book that follows is it written that God plays favorites and one ethnic race is superior to another?
I have often wondered why people accept they pray to a fair and just God, yet also accept they belong to, in their God's eyes, an inferior race and must support the superior race to avoid the wrath of their fair and just god.
Over 40 authors, over the span of 1500 years or more, ranging from kings to fishermen to field hands, living on 3 different continents. And they all seem to have agreed with one another. Quite amazing actually.
I dont want to discount anything. But everything you said including the fact that anything man makes is going to be imperfect and the bible went through a couple languages to get to english, leads me to be, well I dont want to skeptical but maybe take it for what it is. Ive always viewed it as guidebook, if the document was 100% correct we shouldnt be eating lobster or pigs either.
Anything man makes? Couple of languages to get to english? I think you'd best do some investigation of your own, you're sounding quite foolish.
Ignorance is bliss for some I guess. Might want to try education. The bible was written in hebrew/aramac and greek, translated into latin, then translated into english. If you were educated you would understand things do not directly translate between languages.
Yes, apparently for you it is quite bliss. But, allow me to fill you in anyway. There are literally hundreds of modern English translations that have been translated directly from the original Greek, Hebrew (and Chaldean). And starting with John Rodgers (in 1537!!!) the entire bible has been translated into English directly from the source languages. Of course there were earlier direct translations of the New Testament only. And today, if I want to, I can compare any English translation to the source text with just the click of a button.
Ok thanks you proved my point. Im not saying it takes away or adds anything. The fact is words, sentence structure does not translate exactly from language to language, thats a fact along with the fact the bible has been through a few languages before english the last being latin. When you translate languages in case you didnt take that class, you lose words, gain words, and change sentence structure.
Of course it doesn't, anyone who would think otherwise is a fool. But that's why any good scholar doesn't rely solely on an English translation, or any translation for that matter. But translations into languages that are more precise than english (say Hebrew to Greek) can give great insights in how to understand a text. And there are many people who are experts in both the source languages and the language into which they are translating. And while I am not, I can use several tools to check any translation work to see if it stands up to scrutiny.
And thus the many interpretations out there. And to say one over the other is right, is foolish. Yes a good scholar would look at multiple versions to come up to an opinion, again an opinion. Most of us average joes are not well versed in multiple languages enough to form a scholarly opinion, so we rely on others, our own interpretation, a pastors, all of which could be right or wrong. Even those translation tools, you can check those, the problem is as I have already said is you can not get a direct translation, things just dont translate, even in a tool. You have to be well versed in the languages your comparing to actually be able to make that comaparison. I could say i went to the blue house, and then put it in spanish, it doesnt mean the same thing.
quote:Originally posted by nards444
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by nards444
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by nards444
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by nards444
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by SCOUT5
quote:Originally posted by 96harley
I read the book boys and Israel wins in the end along with all the others who have put theirs souls in God's hands.
Exactly who wrote that book? What were their religious and ethnic associations? Where in the book that follows is it written that God plays favorites and one ethnic race is superior to another?
I have often wondered why people accept they pray to a fair and just God, yet also accept they belong to, in their God's eyes, an inferior race and must support the superior race to avoid the wrath of their fair and just god.
Over 40 authors, over the span of 1500 years or more, ranging from kings to fishermen to field hands, living on 3 different continents. And they all seem to have agreed with one another. Quite amazing actually.
I dont want to discount anything. But everything you said including the fact that anything man makes is going to be imperfect and the bible went through a couple languages to get to english, leads me to be, well I dont want to skeptical but maybe take it for what it is. Ive always viewed it as guidebook, if the document was 100% correct we shouldnt be eating lobster or pigs either.
Anything man makes? Couple of languages to get to english? I think you'd best do some investigation of your own, you're sounding quite foolish.
Ignorance is bliss for some I guess. Might want to try education. The bible was written in hebrew/aramac and greek, translated into latin, then translated into english. If you were educated you would understand things do not directly translate between languages.
Yes, apparently for you it is quite bliss. But, allow me to fill you in anyway. There are literally hundreds of modern English translations that have been translated directly from the original Greek, Hebrew (and Chaldean). And starting with John Rodgers (in 1537!!!) the entire bible has been translated into English directly from the source languages. Of course there were earlier direct translations of the New Testament only. And today, if I want to, I can compare any English translation to the source text with just the click of a button.
Ok thanks you proved my point. Im not saying it takes away or adds anything. The fact is words, sentence structure does not translate exactly from language to language, thats a fact along with the fact the bible has been through a few languages before english the last being latin. When you translate languages in case you didnt take that class, you lose words, gain words, and change sentence structure.
Of course it doesn't, anyone who would think otherwise is a fool. But that's why any good scholar doesn't rely solely on an English translation, or any translation for that matter. But translations into languages that are more precise than english (say Hebrew to Greek) can give great insights in how to understand a text. And there are many people who are experts in both the source languages and the language into which they are translating. And while I am not, I can use several tools to check any translation work to see if it stands up to scrutiny.
And thus the many interpretations out there. And to say one over the other is right, is foolish. Yes a good scholar would look at multiple versions to come up to an opinion, again an opinion. Most of us average joes are not well versed in multiple languages enough to form a scholarly opinion, so we rely on others, our own interpretation, a pastors, all of which could be right or wrong. Even those translation tools, you can check those, the problem is as I have already said is you can not get a direct translation, things just dont translate, even in a tool. You have to be well versed in the languages your comparing to actually be able to make that comaparison. I could say i went to the blue house, and then put it in spanish, it doesnt mean the same thing.
Just because the words may not directly translate word for word does not mean that the original meaning and intent can not be retained, and more specifically, understood. Nor does it suggest that multiple translations are needed (or even desirable). Nor does it suggest that multiple different interpretations are acceptable (except where ambiguity is purposefully in the original, of course). My point is that the text in its original language is available for inspection, translation, and understanding-- not just in English, but in any language. You're making leaps where there aren't even valleys and asking "how high" when no one has told you to jump.
Some will die in hot pursuit
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
And your making assumptions. Proof is in the pudding, and that is every other church has its own way of doing things or interpreting. To say there is only one interpretation or one right away is foolish, ignorant, among other things. It really shows how little you know and can comprehend.
quote:Originally posted by nards444
Proof is in the pudding, and that is every other church has its own way of doing things or interpreting. To say there is only one interpretation or one right away is foolish, ignorant, among other things. It really shows how little you know and can comprehend.
Yes, but on close scrutiny few if any can be shown to be true to the original text. You're free (just as they) to believe whatever you want, but if you want it to fall in line with what the bible says, you're going to have to do what it actually says.
"Thou shall not murder" is plain in any language. So, no matter how you try to conflate the issue, it's really not as complicated as you're making out to be.
Some will die in hot pursuit
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
Anybody can walk into a church. Some think walking into a church makes one a Christian. If that's the case anyone who walks into a donut shop is a cop. It is once again easy to see the critics, many of whom have never darkened the door of any church or any denomination spew their views. Winning an argument against such is like winning a wall paper hanging contest against the one armed paper hanger......did you really win? Faith...the bible is God's inspired Word. When you step through death's door, as we all will, then you will know.
Comments
quote:Originally posted by 96harley
Thank you Mr. Perfect...I was going explain it as you did. Again thank you brother.
Nards....It's commonly referred to as FAITH. I live by it and though imperfect and not man made but formed from the dust in God's image, I fall far short of His perfection. When Christ entered the picture things changed for hell bound guys like me. Have a good evening my friend.
Weather one has faith in god or one doesn't should be separate from their belief of how accurate they believe the writing of the bible to be, particularly the old testament. The bible was written not by god, but by men. It was also rewritten by men, organized by men, edited by men, and published by men. It is simply a book written by men. As it is published here in the USA it is not even in chronological order.
To take from the old testament that god has deemed the Jewish race is a superior race and all other races must accept and foster this belief or be damned is not anything I personally could see a fair and just god as demanding.
...snip...
Why is this amazing? As the historical writings were compiled by men, sorted by men, rewritten by men and all done by the same men at the request of king or another it isn't amazing that the writings agree with each other it is inevitable.
The bible is what it is, but it also is not what it's not.
Fortunately, how God operates is not subject to what you or anyone else feels how he should operate, and I think it quite comical that any human would assume the position of authority to tell God what is or is not just. I think there's an entire book on that, actually... starts with J end with B.
I'm not going to try to refute all your error regarding how the bible was collected and/or preserved, because that information is freely available for anyone willing to seriously investigate it, but I will answer your question. How is it amazing? Try this, get ten people in a room (forum?? [:D]) See what controversial topic you can get them all to agree on. Try this one... "Is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob the creator of the world?" Now do it with 40. Now make sure the cross section of people is as I described it.
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
quote:Originally posted by SCOUT5
quote:Originally posted by 96harley
Thank you Mr. Perfect...I was going explain it as you did. Again thank you brother.
Nards....It's commonly referred to as FAITH. I live by it and though imperfect and not man made but formed from the dust in God's image, I fall far short of His perfection. When Christ entered the picture things changed for hell bound guys like me. Have a good evening my friend.
Weather one has faith in god or one doesn't should be separate from their belief of how accurate they believe the writing of the bible to be, particularly the old testament. The bible was written not by god, but by men. It was also rewritten by men, organized by men, edited by men, and published by men. It is simply a book written by men. As it is published here in the USA it is not even in chronological order.
To take from the old testament that god has deemed the Jewish race is a superior race and all other races must accept and foster this belief or be damned is not anything I personally could see a fair and just god as demanding.
...snip...
Why is this amazing? As the historical writings were compiled by men, sorted by men, rewritten by men and all done by the same men at the request of king or another it isn't amazing that the writings agree with each other it is inevitable.
The bible is what it is, but it also is not what it's not.
Fortunately, how God operates is not subject to what you or anyone else feels how he should operate, and I think it quite comical that any human would assume the position of authority to tell God what is or is not just. I think there's an entire book on that, actually... starts with J end with B.
I'm not going to try to refute all your error regarding how the bible was collected and/or preserved, because that information is freely available for anyone willing to seriously investigate it, but I will answer your question. How is it amazing? Try this, get ten people in a room (forum?? [:D]) See what controversial topic you can get them all to agree on. Try this one... "Is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob the creator of the world?" Now do it with 40. Now make sure the cross section of people is as I described it.
Exactly my point.
As for the freely available information about the how the bible was collected and preserved, that is what I did investigate and is the information I used to I came to my opinion it is a man written document. Did it have spiritual guidance along the way, maybe, how much of that existed is actually reflected in the final product I would have no way of knowing, and beyond blind faith, neither does anyone else.
As for the creator or how he operates, each man to his own opinion I say. What I am really discussing here is using the bible, particularly the old testament, as an excuse or a reason to support Israel, monetarily and militarily.
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by SCOUT5
quote:Originally posted by 96harley
Thank you Mr. Perfect...I was going explain it as you did. Again thank you brother.
Nards....It's commonly referred to as FAITH. I live by it and though imperfect and not man made but formed from the dust in God's image, I fall far short of His perfection. When Christ entered the picture things changed for hell bound guys like me. Have a good evening my friend.
Weather one has faith in god or one doesn't should be separate from their belief of how accurate they believe the writing of the bible to be, particularly the old testament. The bible was written not by god, but by men. It was also rewritten by men, organized by men, edited by men, and published by men. It is simply a book written by men. As it is published here in the USA it is not even in chronological order.
To take from the old testament that god has deemed the Jewish race is a superior race and all other races must accept and foster this belief or be damned is not anything I personally could see a fair and just god as demanding.
...snip...
Why is this amazing? As the historical writings were compiled by men, sorted by men, rewritten by men and all done by the same men at the request of king or another it isn't amazing that the writings agree with each other it is inevitable.
The bible is what it is, but it also is not what it's not.
Fortunately, how God operates is not subject to what you or anyone else feels how he should operate, and I think it quite comical that any human would assume the position of authority to tell God what is or is not just. I think there's an entire book on that, actually... starts with J end with B.
I'm not going to try to refute all your error regarding how the bible was collected and/or preserved, because that information is freely available for anyone willing to seriously investigate it, but I will answer your question. How is it amazing? Try this, get ten people in a room (forum?? [:D]) See what controversial topic you can get them all to agree on. Try this one... "Is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob the creator of the world?" Now do it with 40. Now make sure the cross section of people is as I described it.
Exactly my point.
As for the freely available information about the how the bible was collected and preserved, that is what I did investigate and is the information I used to I came to my opinion it is a man written document. Did it have spiritual guidance along the way, maybe, how much of that existed is actually reflected in the final product I would have no way of knowing, and beyond blind faith, neither does anyone else.
As for the creator or how he operates, each man to his own opinion I say. What I am really discussing here is using the bible, particularly the old testament, as an excuse or a reason to support Israel, monetarily and militarily.
If you think that is exactly your point, I can only marvel at how far you actually missed it. And if your research has shown you that, you have either carefully picked and chosen your sources or you're being entirely disingenuous.
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
quote:Originally posted by SCOUT5
Weather one has faith in god or one doesn't should be separate from their belief of how accurate they believe the writing of the bible to be, particularly the old testament.
Well, for Christianity, that is more or less correct. The purpose of Natural Revelation is to bring all men to a knowledge of God, whether access to a bible is present, or not.
The bible was written not by god, but by men.
The bible was written by men, but the bible says that the men wrote as they were moved by God. You can either accept that, or not, but it is neither contradictory nor impossible.
It was also rewritten by men, organized by men, edited by men, and published by men.
Yes, that is a fact. Your point is what ? That it would therefore be impossible for the original autographs be preserved in meaning and context ? That's a pretty long reach.
It is simply a book written by men.
An easy thing to say, but what have you proven that really means ?
As it is published here in the USA it is not even in chronological order.
So what ?
To take from the old testament that god has deemed the Jewish race is a superior race and all other races must accept and foster this belief or be damned is not anything I personally could see a fair and just god as demanding.
Good. The bible says nothing of the sort. That is actually a very strange conclusion, given the texts....is that something you figured out, or were you taught that ?
I can however see a race of people writing such things and then pushing to have this belief sold to the world.
It would be one thing if that were the case. But it is not.
The Jews do this with the bible and the Muslims do it with the Koran.
Now you are wrong twice. Not making any progress here...[;)]
I don't blame them for doing this, hell why not, obviously it's working. I just can't understand otherwise rational people accepting it as gospel.
Funny, I would have absolutely no problem blaming anybody for doing such a thing !
While I have nothing against the Jews, or any race of people for that matter, I do not accept they are superior to me or that my tax dollars need to be spent due to a misguided interpretation of a book written primarily by Jews.
I think you need to re-focus, you are running on foolish.No offense intended.
If the USA needs to deal with Israel as an ally then so be it. But remove the religious part of the discussion when it comes to spending my tax dollars and sending Americans to war.
I would beware of anybody selling death from a Christian franchise.
As another poster has already remarked, "The bible is what it is, but it also is not what it's not."
References available, upon request.
I am not going to respond to your line by line refutation, as quite frankly most of it makes no sense.
As for references, I am sure you can cite references you believe support your position, just as I can, until we get tired of citing them to each other. I learned at an early age I could cite scriptures to back any point I so desired. I did this by reading the new and old testament (King James version) cover to cover twice by the time I was 15 and watching varies assorted scripture spouters do exactly that.
What I find interesting is that there are many other writings out there that the authors claim to have been written with god's guidance and yet, IIRC, you have refuted them in past threads. Of course the writing you reference to refute them is the old testament. If you can accept one as accurate, why is it you can not accept others?
quote:Originally posted by nards444
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by SCOUT5
quote:Originally posted by 96harley
I read the book boys and Israel wins in the end along with all the others who have put theirs souls in God's hands.
Exactly who wrote that book? What were their religious and ethnic associations? Where in the book that follows is it written that God plays favorites and one ethnic race is superior to another?
I have often wondered why people accept they pray to a fair and just God, yet also accept they belong to, in their God's eyes, an inferior race and must support the superior race to avoid the wrath of their fair and just god.
Over 40 authors, over the span of 1500 years or more, ranging from kings to fishermen to field hands, living on 3 different continents. And they all seem to have agreed with one another. Quite amazing actually.
I dont want to discount anything. But everything you said including the fact that anything man makes is going to be imperfect and the bible went through a couple languages to get to english, leads me to be, well I dont want to skeptical but maybe take it for what it is. Ive always viewed it as guidebook, if the document was 100% correct we shouldnt be eating lobster or pigs either.
Anything man makes? Couple of languages to get to english? I think you'd best do some investigation of your own, you're sounding quite foolish.
Ignorance is bliss for some I guess. Might want to try education. The bible was written in hebrew/aramac and greek, translated into latin, then translated into english. If you were educated you would understand things do not directly translate between languages.
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by nards444
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by SCOUT5
quote:Originally posted by 96harley
I read the book boys and Israel wins in the end along with all the others who have put theirs souls in God's hands.
Exactly who wrote that book? What were their religious and ethnic associations? Where in the book that follows is it written that God plays favorites and one ethnic race is superior to another?
I have often wondered why people accept they pray to a fair and just God, yet also accept they belong to, in their God's eyes, an inferior race and must support the superior race to avoid the wrath of their fair and just god.
Over 40 authors, over the span of 1500 years or more, ranging from kings to fishermen to field hands, living on 3 different continents. And they all seem to have agreed with one another. Quite amazing actually.
I dont want to discount anything. But everything you said including the fact that anything man makes is going to be imperfect and the bible went through a couple languages to get to english, leads me to be, well I dont want to skeptical but maybe take it for what it is. Ive always viewed it as guidebook, if the document was 100% correct we shouldnt be eating lobster or pigs either.
Anything man makes? Couple of languages to get to english? I think you'd best do some investigation of your own, you're sounding quite foolish.
Ignorance is bliss for some I guess. Might want to try education. The bible was written in hebrew/aramac and greek, translated into latin, then translated into english. If you were educated you would understand things do not directly translate between languages.
Yes, apparently for you it is quite bliss. But, allow me to fill you in anyway. There are literally hundreds of modern English translations that have been translated directly from the original Greek, Hebrew (and Chaldean). And starting with John Rodgers (in 1537!!!) the entire bible has been translated into English directly from the source languages. Of course there were earlier direct translations of the New Testament only. And today, if I want to, I can compare any English translation to the source text with just the click of a button.
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
quote:Originally posted by nards444
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by nards444
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by SCOUT5
quote:Originally posted by 96harley
I read the book boys and Israel wins in the end along with all the others who have put theirs souls in God's hands.
Exactly who wrote that book? What were their religious and ethnic associations? Where in the book that follows is it written that God plays favorites and one ethnic race is superior to another?
I have often wondered why people accept they pray to a fair and just God, yet also accept they belong to, in their God's eyes, an inferior race and must support the superior race to avoid the wrath of their fair and just god.
Over 40 authors, over the span of 1500 years or more, ranging from kings to fishermen to field hands, living on 3 different continents. And they all seem to have agreed with one another. Quite amazing actually.
I dont want to discount anything. But everything you said including the fact that anything man makes is going to be imperfect and the bible went through a couple languages to get to english, leads me to be, well I dont want to skeptical but maybe take it for what it is. Ive always viewed it as guidebook, if the document was 100% correct we shouldnt be eating lobster or pigs either.
Anything man makes? Couple of languages to get to english? I think you'd best do some investigation of your own, you're sounding quite foolish.
Ignorance is bliss for some I guess. Might want to try education. The bible was written in hebrew/aramac and greek, translated into latin, then translated into english. If you were educated you would understand things do not directly translate between languages.
Yes, apparently for you it is quite bliss. But, allow me to fill you in anyway. There are literally hundreds of modern English translations that have been translated directly from the original Greek, Hebrew (and Chaldean). And starting with John Rodgers (in 1537!!!) the entire bible has been translated into English directly from the source languages. Of course there were earlier direct translations of the New Testament only. And today, if I want to, I can compare any English translation to the source text with just the click of a button.
Ok thanks you proved my point. Im not saying it takes away or adds anything. The fact is words, sentence structure does not translate exactly from language to language, thats a fact along with the fact the bible has been through a few languages before english the last being latin. When you translate languages in case you didnt take that class, you lose words, gain words, and change sentence structure.
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by nards444
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by nards444
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by SCOUT5
quote:Originally posted by 96harley
I read the book boys and Israel wins in the end along with all the others who have put theirs souls in God's hands.
Exactly who wrote that book? What were their religious and ethnic associations? Where in the book that follows is it written that God plays favorites and one ethnic race is superior to another?
I have often wondered why people accept they pray to a fair and just God, yet also accept they belong to, in their God's eyes, an inferior race and must support the superior race to avoid the wrath of their fair and just god.
Over 40 authors, over the span of 1500 years or more, ranging from kings to fishermen to field hands, living on 3 different continents. And they all seem to have agreed with one another. Quite amazing actually.
I dont want to discount anything. But everything you said including the fact that anything man makes is going to be imperfect and the bible went through a couple languages to get to english, leads me to be, well I dont want to skeptical but maybe take it for what it is. Ive always viewed it as guidebook, if the document was 100% correct we shouldnt be eating lobster or pigs either.
Anything man makes? Couple of languages to get to english? I think you'd best do some investigation of your own, you're sounding quite foolish.
Ignorance is bliss for some I guess. Might want to try education. The bible was written in hebrew/aramac and greek, translated into latin, then translated into english. If you were educated you would understand things do not directly translate between languages.
Yes, apparently for you it is quite bliss. But, allow me to fill you in anyway. There are literally hundreds of modern English translations that have been translated directly from the original Greek, Hebrew (and Chaldean). And starting with John Rodgers (in 1537!!!) the entire bible has been translated into English directly from the source languages. Of course there were earlier direct translations of the New Testament only. And today, if I want to, I can compare any English translation to the source text with just the click of a button.
Ok thanks you proved my point. Im not saying it takes away or adds anything. The fact is words, sentence structure does not translate exactly from language to language, thats a fact along with the fact the bible has been through a few languages before english the last being latin. When you translate languages in case you didnt take that class, you lose words, gain words, and change sentence structure.
Of course it doesn't, anyone who would think otherwise is a fool. But that's why any good scholar doesn't rely solely on an English translation, or any translation for that matter. But translations into languages that are more precise than english (say Hebrew to Greek) can give great insights in how to understand a text. And there are many people who are experts in both the source languages and the language into which they are translating. And while I am not, I can use several tools to check any translation work to see if it stands up to scrutiny.
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
quote:Originally posted by nards444
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by nards444
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by nards444
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by SCOUT5
quote:Originally posted by 96harley
I read the book boys and Israel wins in the end along with all the others who have put theirs souls in God's hands.
Exactly who wrote that book? What were their religious and ethnic associations? Where in the book that follows is it written that God plays favorites and one ethnic race is superior to another?
I have often wondered why people accept they pray to a fair and just God, yet also accept they belong to, in their God's eyes, an inferior race and must support the superior race to avoid the wrath of their fair and just god.
Over 40 authors, over the span of 1500 years or more, ranging from kings to fishermen to field hands, living on 3 different continents. And they all seem to have agreed with one another. Quite amazing actually.
I dont want to discount anything. But everything you said including the fact that anything man makes is going to be imperfect and the bible went through a couple languages to get to english, leads me to be, well I dont want to skeptical but maybe take it for what it is. Ive always viewed it as guidebook, if the document was 100% correct we shouldnt be eating lobster or pigs either.
Anything man makes? Couple of languages to get to english? I think you'd best do some investigation of your own, you're sounding quite foolish.
Ignorance is bliss for some I guess. Might want to try education. The bible was written in hebrew/aramac and greek, translated into latin, then translated into english. If you were educated you would understand things do not directly translate between languages.
Yes, apparently for you it is quite bliss. But, allow me to fill you in anyway. There are literally hundreds of modern English translations that have been translated directly from the original Greek, Hebrew (and Chaldean). And starting with John Rodgers (in 1537!!!) the entire bible has been translated into English directly from the source languages. Of course there were earlier direct translations of the New Testament only. And today, if I want to, I can compare any English translation to the source text with just the click of a button.
Ok thanks you proved my point. Im not saying it takes away or adds anything. The fact is words, sentence structure does not translate exactly from language to language, thats a fact along with the fact the bible has been through a few languages before english the last being latin. When you translate languages in case you didnt take that class, you lose words, gain words, and change sentence structure.
Of course it doesn't, anyone who would think otherwise is a fool. But that's why any good scholar doesn't rely solely on an English translation, or any translation for that matter. But translations into languages that are more precise than english (say Hebrew to Greek) can give great insights in how to understand a text. And there are many people who are experts in both the source languages and the language into which they are translating. And while I am not, I can use several tools to check any translation work to see if it stands up to scrutiny.
And thus the many interpretations out there. And to say one over the other is right, is foolish. Yes a good scholar would look at multiple versions to come up to an opinion, again an opinion. Most of us average joes are not well versed in multiple languages enough to form a scholarly opinion, so we rely on others, our own interpretation, a pastors, all of which could be right or wrong. Even those translation tools, you can check those, the problem is as I have already said is you can not get a direct translation, things just dont translate, even in a tool. You have to be well versed in the languages your comparing to actually be able to make that comaparison. I could say i went to the blue house, and then put it in spanish, it doesnt mean the same thing.
Henry Drummond in "Inherit the Wind". 1960
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by nards444
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by nards444
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by nards444
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by SCOUT5
quote:Originally posted by 96harley
I read the book boys and Israel wins in the end along with all the others who have put theirs souls in God's hands.
Exactly who wrote that book? What were their religious and ethnic associations? Where in the book that follows is it written that God plays favorites and one ethnic race is superior to another?
I have often wondered why people accept they pray to a fair and just God, yet also accept they belong to, in their God's eyes, an inferior race and must support the superior race to avoid the wrath of their fair and just god.
Over 40 authors, over the span of 1500 years or more, ranging from kings to fishermen to field hands, living on 3 different continents. And they all seem to have agreed with one another. Quite amazing actually.
I dont want to discount anything. But everything you said including the fact that anything man makes is going to be imperfect and the bible went through a couple languages to get to english, leads me to be, well I dont want to skeptical but maybe take it for what it is. Ive always viewed it as guidebook, if the document was 100% correct we shouldnt be eating lobster or pigs either.
Anything man makes? Couple of languages to get to english? I think you'd best do some investigation of your own, you're sounding quite foolish.
Ignorance is bliss for some I guess. Might want to try education. The bible was written in hebrew/aramac and greek, translated into latin, then translated into english. If you were educated you would understand things do not directly translate between languages.
Yes, apparently for you it is quite bliss. But, allow me to fill you in anyway. There are literally hundreds of modern English translations that have been translated directly from the original Greek, Hebrew (and Chaldean). And starting with John Rodgers (in 1537!!!) the entire bible has been translated into English directly from the source languages. Of course there were earlier direct translations of the New Testament only. And today, if I want to, I can compare any English translation to the source text with just the click of a button.
Ok thanks you proved my point. Im not saying it takes away or adds anything. The fact is words, sentence structure does not translate exactly from language to language, thats a fact along with the fact the bible has been through a few languages before english the last being latin. When you translate languages in case you didnt take that class, you lose words, gain words, and change sentence structure.
Of course it doesn't, anyone who would think otherwise is a fool. But that's why any good scholar doesn't rely solely on an English translation, or any translation for that matter. But translations into languages that are more precise than english (say Hebrew to Greek) can give great insights in how to understand a text. And there are many people who are experts in both the source languages and the language into which they are translating. And while I am not, I can use several tools to check any translation work to see if it stands up to scrutiny.
And thus the many interpretations out there. And to say one over the other is right, is foolish. Yes a good scholar would look at multiple versions to come up to an opinion, again an opinion. Most of us average joes are not well versed in multiple languages enough to form a scholarly opinion, so we rely on others, our own interpretation, a pastors, all of which could be right or wrong. Even those translation tools, you can check those, the problem is as I have already said is you can not get a direct translation, things just dont translate, even in a tool. You have to be well versed in the languages your comparing to actually be able to make that comaparison. I could say i went to the blue house, and then put it in spanish, it doesnt mean the same thing.
Just because the words may not directly translate word for word does not mean that the original meaning and intent can not be retained, and more specifically, understood. Nor does it suggest that multiple translations are needed (or even desirable). Nor does it suggest that multiple different interpretations are acceptable (except where ambiguity is purposefully in the original, of course). My point is that the text in its original language is available for inspection, translation, and understanding-- not just in English, but in any language. You're making leaps where there aren't even valleys and asking "how high" when no one has told you to jump.
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
Brad Steele
What kind of pudding?
EXACTLY!!!
"Pudding" in the USA is a milk based sweet dessert. In Great Britain, it can be a meat sausage savory dish that is boiled.
Translate that..............
[;)]
What kind of pudding?
pistachio
quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
What kind of pudding?
EXACTLY!!!
"Pudding" in the USA is a milk based sweet dessert. In Great Britain, it can be a meat sausage savory dish that is boiled.
Translate that..............
[;)]
Do not forget Blood Pudding.
There will be Blood Pudding!
Brad Steele
Proof is in the pudding, and that is every other church has its own way of doing things or interpreting. To say there is only one interpretation or one right away is foolish, ignorant, among other things. It really shows how little you know and can comprehend.
Yes, but on close scrutiny few if any can be shown to be true to the original text. You're free (just as they) to believe whatever you want, but if you want it to fall in line with what the bible says, you're going to have to do what it actually says.
"Thou shall not murder" is plain in any language. So, no matter how you try to conflate the issue, it's really not as complicated as you're making out to be.
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain