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overrated guns
223believer
Member Posts: 128 ✭✭✭
I've been thinking about overrated guns. Guns that
everybody seems to like, but on closer consideration
have serious problems.
The Browning Automatic Rifle was heavy, tough to load
when prone, and was a bit of a tweener: it didn't fit
the role of a light machine gun well--many other guns
did the job better--and it wasn't a practical assault
rifle. The Bren did everything the Browning did and did
it much better.
The 1911 is finicky about to be reliable needs to have loose
tolerances. Accuracy goes out the window when you do that.
It's a bit complicated to disassemble. It's prone to
accidental discharges.
The M1 Garand is too heavy and difficult to load--the whole
M1 thumb. It could not be topped up during a lull in the
fighting. The M14 is really the M1 with significant improvements.
A good gun should not need major modifications.
What do you think? Anything else you want to throw out there?
everybody seems to like, but on closer consideration
have serious problems.
The Browning Automatic Rifle was heavy, tough to load
when prone, and was a bit of a tweener: it didn't fit
the role of a light machine gun well--many other guns
did the job better--and it wasn't a practical assault
rifle. The Bren did everything the Browning did and did
it much better.
The 1911 is finicky about to be reliable needs to have loose
tolerances. Accuracy goes out the window when you do that.
It's a bit complicated to disassemble. It's prone to
accidental discharges.
The M1 Garand is too heavy and difficult to load--the whole
M1 thumb. It could not be topped up during a lull in the
fighting. The M14 is really the M1 with significant improvements.
A good gun should not need major modifications.
What do you think? Anything else you want to throw out there?
Comments
ANYTHING MADE BY BROWNING!!
Any Kimber rimfire rifle
Just to clairify, your are saying that: quote:Pre-64 Model 70
ANYTHING MADE BY BROWNING!!
Any Kimber rimfire rifle
are all overrated?
=================================
The only bad thing about choosing a Kimber ...
... there are so darn many models to choose from!
kimberkid@gunbroker.zzn.com
? otherwise, you'll find an excuse.
stanman quote: ANYTHING MADE BY BROWNING!!
I beg to differ.
I have some very fine Browning shotguns that will stand up to some of the best.
"If you ain't got pictures, I wasn't there."
Margaret Thatcher
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."
Mark Twain
The BAR is the 2nd best infantry battle implement ever fielded. It was light, very accurate, very reliable and a LOT more powerful than that stupid bren.
The 1911A1 was (and is) accurate enough for its combat role, easy to disassemble and NOT prone to AD's. The glock, on the other hand, is VERY prone to AD's (I know, they are really SD's-stupid discharges) and will disintegrate in bright sunlight (as will all plastics).
The M1 IS the finest infantry battle implement ever fielded. It is not much heavier than an M16A2, VERY reliable, faster to reload than a mag. fed rifle and came in a decent caliber, not some wimped out minor caliber like the M14.
Overrated Guns?
Glock
M16
AK47
(I would add the bren to this list but you are the first I have veer heard say ANYTHING good about it so I doubt if it is 'overrated')
Quod principi placuit legis habet vigorem.Semper Fidelis
Actually, I think the man carrying the BAR was highly thought of and in much demand -- an effective battle implement as history tells it.
The Garand was just as well thought of in its day. It is generally agreed that the only reason the M14 was fielded is that the military was slow to adopt Stoner's already completed M16 design. Whether that was the right thing to do or not depends upon how good you think the early M16s were when they were finally fielded with their Bakelite forend, no forward assist and inadequate training on the importance of cleaning in the field.
The 1911 was prone to jam until they started relieving the ejection port, as was, I believe, the Hi-Power. But then the Luger, a prized war souvenir, was overcomplicated, with leaf spring, and some would say underpowered with 9mm ball, as was the P-38.
The list of flawed guns goes on. I will say one thing about the AK. If it is so overrated, I'll give you a choice of which gun you'd rather stand in front of and hope to have your life saved by a) a survivable wound and/or b) odds of a mechanical failure. If you don't choose to stand in front of the M16 you're in fantasyland, because the AK WILL discharge and it WILL hurt you badly.
As for the BAR or M14, I don't know of any gun with a mag that isn't harder to load prone, but harder than what? A belt-fed? Or are we going back to stripper clips again? I remember how the OA-93 (AR "pistol") came out a few years ago and was banned. The revised version had the mag welded in place and was a top loader. The fascination with the gun died quick.
Polymer is the wave of the future by the way. If you don't like what you call "plastic," you're going to hate the Land Warrior system. Better read up on resins, fibers, and compounds. There's a lot more to "poly-pro" and the other "alloys" than meets the eye. They're not whipping up batches of squirt gun material down at Mattel for these guns. But the materials HAVE been on the shuttle and the space station. Get a grip.
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
Edited by - offeror on 07/25/2002 02:32:19
EVERY part on the space shuttle was made by the LOWEST bidder (who used plastic because it was CHEAPER)
Quod principi placuit legis habet vigorem.Semper Fidelis
Pack slow, fall stable, pull high, hit dead center.
The M1 is concidered by many to be the greatest battle empliment of all time, this was repeatedly stated by General Patton who was a true warrior and probably the greatest general to ever walk the face of this planet. I cant help but feel some people are merely repeating his sentaments. I personally feel that the M14 was an improvement on the M1 but is only an opinion, and we all know what they say about opinions.
The 1911 was and is a marvel of firearms design. Relatively few modifications have been made to John B's original design and it is still the most popular semi auto handgun in existance today. It functions flawlessly within its design limits and can be tweeked to function outside of them, aka hollowpoint ammunition.
As far as the tupperware weapons go, you old timers are going to need to understand that the plastics of today are not the same as the plastics you grew up with. You are comparing the complex compounds used today with the bakelight plastics used by the japs in their cheap transistor radios that you grew up with. The polymers being used today are in many instances, stronger, yes, that is correct, stronger than steel and are being constantly improved by companies like DuPont and GE. I do not know where you recieved your information that a Glock will melt in the sun but I dont believe it would be possible on this planet. Maybe on Mercury or Venus but if it gets that hot on earth, you wont need a weapon anyway.
When Clinton left office they gave him a 21 gun salute. Its a damn shame they all missed....
Besides plastic don't rust.
"If you ain't got pictures, I wasn't there."
Margaret Thatcher
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."
Mark Twain
I also am in complete concurrence with those who cited "pre-64 M70."
But even ahead of that one, I would throw in the M94. The other 'mystique' firearm which was much over-rated at the height of its popularity is the M29 S&W.
I recognize, however, that the great popularity of those I've listed does reflect in some measure actual preferences as opposed to media-generated mystique.
Pack slow, fall stable, pull high, hit dead center.
Edited by - gunpaq on 07/25/2002 11:44:00
I guess I would have to say the most overrated is anything with .223 on it.
As for accuracy, I will take my "STOCK 1911" and shoot with anybody.
As for being "Loose" mine is as tight as any other gun out there.
"A wise man is a man that realizes just how little he knows"
Now, I know you're a big .30-06 fan, but:
"not some wimped out minor caliber like the M14."
Tell you what, you stand in front of my M1A holding a steel plate in front of your chest. After I fire then tell me how wimped out the .308 cartridge is...
G36
Gun Control Disarms Victims, NOT Criminals
Quod principi placuit legis habet vigorem.Semper Fidelis
Does anyone know exactly why the AK is so popular???? I'll tell you why, price. Look at all these commie guns, you can buy any of them for less than $500 all day long. Are they dependable? Well so was a '60s model VW Beetle but we don't see you rushing out to get one. You keep saying that the Ak is more dependable than an M16, quit comparing the early models that failed in Vietnam to the commie club, ok? I challenge anyone close to PA who swears that the Ak is so much better to come on over and put that commie club up against my Bushmaster. BTW, my bushy has NEVER jammed, even with hottrodded ammo and many "as fast as you can yank it" sessions.
I agree about the WTBY being overrated, I have a .300 wtby mag and used to have a 7mm WTBY mag, both junk. A 30-06 or a .300 win mag will do anything a .300 wtby will do and better. The 7mmwtby could not out shoot the 7mm rem mag in velocity or accuracy.
I'm not real big into handguns so I cannot mention brands with any knowledge but I do feel a 9mm and .45 acp is overrated.
I think the M249 SAW is overrated. It is considerably lighter than the original M60, but the trade-off in caliber ruins it, I think. If they wanted a lighter light machine gun, they should have taken the M60E3, which is not only lighter but addresses all of the issues with the original M60.
The BAR would have been an excellent standard infantry rifle if they had just made it a bit lighter. That's the problem though. You cant issue the troops a 17 lb. battle rifle, but it's just as silly to call a rifle that only takes 20 round magazines and has a fixed barrel a machine gun.
I don't know where you get your info on Weatherby's but your comments make no sense!!
quote:A 30-06 or a .300 win mag will do anything a .300 wtby will do and better.
I will give you that the .300 Win mag is close to the .300 Wby mag in performance(the Wby is still ballistically better)...but here is the thing that I don't understand. The .30/06 with a 180 grain bullet has a muzzle velocity of 2700 fps as compared to the .300 Wby has 3120 fps for a difference of 420 fps. The muzzle energy of the '06 is 2913 ftlbs as compared to 3890 for the .300 Weatherby...that's almost a half of a ton more energy!! The '06 is a proven cartrige, but it is not even in the same league as a .300 Wby( or .300 Win for that matter)
quote: The 7mmwtby could not out shoot the 7mm rem mag in velocity or accuracy.
The veloity of a 7mm Rem mag with a 140 grain soft point is 3175 fps. The Weatherby's velocity is 3303 fps. I know this is a small difference and both rounds are efficent killers, but there is still a difference. Lastly, Weatherby guarantees each of their Mark V actions to shoot a 3 shot group under 1.5" with factory ammo. I am not aware of any guarantee by Remington or Winchester.
I own 4 Weatherbys and they are an awsome rifle, all of them shoot under an inch. They may be a little overpriced(isi'nt everything anymore?), but not overrated.I am by no means bashing other rifle makers, I own Brownings and Remingtons also...I just don't like to see a fine rifle like Weatherby called junk, but everyone is entitled to his/her opinion!!
Gun control is hitting your target
AlleninAlaska
Free men are not equal and equal men are not free
The glock, on the other hand, is VERY prone to AD's (I know, they are really SD's-stupid discharges) and will disintegrate in bright sunlight (as will all plastics).
You're kidding, right?
"Gun control is not about guns; it's about control." "If guns cause crime, then matches cause arson."
Oh well, we will never agree on the subect, right??
Good debate though!
Gun control is hitting your target
Allen, A .338!! Jesus jumpin what are you shootin at that you need one of those things?! Godzilla?
Bullz, no I do not like Commies, hate them with a passion. I also compare my feelings with those things with my fathers feelings, he says when you have them pointed at you and see your buddies die when they are shot with them, you tend to not like them very much. I am very very proud of American guns, maybe my pride will get me in trouble but I don't care. I own a Norinco SKS, when I showed it to Dad, he walked out of my house. There are some very deep feelings there and I respect that.
Bullz, no I do not like Commies, hate them with a passion. I also compare my feelings with those things with my fathers feelings, he says when you have them pointed at you and see your buddies die when they are shot with them, you tend to not like them very much. I am very very proud of American guns, maybe my pride will get me in trouble but I don't care. I own a Norinco SKS, when I showed it to Dad, he walked out of my house. There are some very deep feelings there and I respect that.
I hate Commies as much as the next guy. But apparently not enough that it keeps me from any and all association with their products.
I see it like this: if I can benefit from their innovations and expertise, then they're helping the enemy and the enemy (me) isnt going to turn down the offer.
Of course, I cant tell anyone how to feel, and I sure as hell dont have the kind of perspective that your father does on the issue. I'm sure I'd probably hate the AK-47 or the SKS if I was a Vietnam vet too.
If you wanted to take the hardline that anything produced by a Communist country is inherently bad, then you'd have to stop using a lot of different things. Like your toaster, your computer, your radio, etc. You'd have to bring your own cup when you go to McDonalds (their cups are printed in China), and likewise for your grocery bags at the supermarket. Everything from basketballs to furniture are made in China these days.
As for being proud of American guns, of course I am. But we dont have a monopoly on excellent firearms by any means. We've also had a lot less time to perfect the art than counties like Germany and Britain, who've had time to work out the kinks since the days of the hand-cannon.
Besides, guns these days are rarely brand new designs. They've all got to be based on something else. Would it be fair to disregard the M1 Garand, for instance, because it's a blowback weapon? I can just about guarantee you the semi-automatic blowback concept was thought up somewhere in Europe. Does that make the Garand a bad gun now? Does it make Americans traitors if they use it?
A vast number of rifles use the rotating bolt system that was invented by Mikhail Kalashnikov and first implemented in the AK-47. This includes the M-16. Does that make the Army, the Marines, and every soldier who ever carried one a traitor?
I'm sure you see where this is going. And I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm just making some observations. Take from it what you will.
THE BAR'S, M1 WORKED FINE FOR THEIR TIME
THE M16 ORGINAL ISSUE WAS JUNK, M16A1 & LATTER HARD TO BEAT!
WALTE
Gee, I feel better now. I like this thread a lot, because it points up the fact that every classic gun is classic despite its flaws, which detractors are only too happy to point out. Yet we love 'em anyway. The gun that has changed for the better the most over the years in terms of standard out of the box design is probably the 1911, because the early ones needed help and people were only too glad to tinker with them and customize them to their liking. Pretty soon, the customizations were becoming standard issue. We now have relieved ports on both the 1911 and Hi-Power that improve performance with all loads, not only hollowpoints but also those plain lead reloads some of us are so fond of shooting. Soft lead roundnose hangs on a badly throated chamber too, ya know.
Anyway, it's fun to take great guns to task, but, outfitted properly, these are all great guns that we are spending our energy on this thread. That's fine with me. But TRULY overrated? Probably not a single one of the classics mentioned herein. Everything's relative.
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
I think that the BOSS is overrated. Yes, you can tune any load, BUT,.....WHY????? once you find the load that shoots best in any rifle, why change it???? Besides the god awful blast, I have to make my hunting partner on crop damage hunts, shoot at least 5-6 away from me so that the air from the break doesn't hit me in the face and throw me off target when we are shooting multiple targets simultaneously.
A great rifle with a junk scope,....is junk.
AlleninAlaska
Free men are not equal and equal men are not free
you possibly say the BAR is better than the BREN?!
The BAR weighed
19.4 pounds and the BREN weighed 22 and a half. Pretty
darn close. The BAR had a fixed middle-weight barrel
which could quickly overheat. No way to change it when
it did. The BREN had a barrel that could quickly be
swapped out. The BAR magazine
was loaded from the bottom--difficult to do when prone--and
the BREN snapped in from the top. Top feed meant
the advantage of gravity feed as well if Mr. Murphy showed up.
Finally, you bring up the ammunition each gun fires. You're
right, the 30-06 does have a bit more pop than .303, but
they're close. And, we're not debating the ammunition, but
the gun itself.
The BREN would have given the US something it never had in
WWII: a light machine gun capable of sustained fire and that
could be quickly moved forward during an advance. The US tried to bring out a weird version of the 30-06 Browning machine gun to do this, but it never really worked well.
The BREN has stood the test of time. It is STILL in use in
some countries and is a marvelous design. The BAR is no longer
in current use and hasn't been for decades.
What the US should have done during WWII is swallow its pride and
bought a BREN license. Doing so would have given the troops a
much better gun than the BAR.
PS More to follow on the Garand and 1911!
PPS Isn't it nice to finally talk about guns for a change?
I didn't say that the Winchester M70, Brownings and Kimber rimfires weren't "okay?", just that they were overrated!
None of the pre-64 model 70s that I've owned were capable of much better than 1 3/4" - 2" groups, but my budget priced Savage bolt guns are sub 1" rifles if I do my part. Yet the Winchester was promoted as some kind of magical thunder stick that needed only be discharged in the general direction of yonder beast and the aforementioned beast would be obliged to collapse instantaneously.
"OVERRATED"
I almost forgot about the Browning Magnum 12 autoloader that I still have, and yea, it's a pretty good gun. But, I also have an old J.C. Higgins autoloader of about the same era that works just as well, weighs about 1 1/2 pounds less and shoots straighter for me. I'm sure that when these guns were new the Browning probably cost twice as much. That's because you're paying, as you always have, for the Browning name and a 'pretty good' gun.
"OVERRATED"
In the last 3 months I've had to read half a dozen articles in my gun rags about the wonderful Kimber rimfires. The gun writers make much of the fact that these little guns are capable of sub 1/2"groups at 50 yds. INCREDIBLE!!! Until you consider that I have a 40+ year old Model 4 with an old Weaver KV that does the same thing. No, it doesn't have a beatifully figured walnut stock or a match chamber or two locking lugs or a match grade trigger or a recessed target crown. In fact, the barrel was cut off by some previous owner and tere is NO crown at the muzzle. I'm into this little set up about $50 total so why would I pay $800+ for a Kimber to do the same thing?? Wouldn't that be rather..... STUPID?? I mean.... IT'S A RIMFIRE FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!
"OVERRATED"
That's all I meant by my previous post and by all means feel free to disagree. This is based only on my own limited experience.
Pre 64 Mod. 70 300H&H mag.
Glock.
SKS.
They may be overated, but I sure do love'm.