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gun lost in shipment. UPDATE...

bobskibobski Member Posts: 17,866 ✭✭✭
edited May 2006 in General Discussion
im not totaly ignorant in this matter, but share some info please:

1. customer paid for gun, check cleared fine, his ffl arrived to my ffl just fine.
2. i delivered gun to my ffl for transfer.
3. 3 weeks later, i get a call saying gun never arrived.
4. i contacted my ffl to trace it.

Q:
1. am i liable? sold as is.
2. CUSTOMER DID NOT REQUEST INSURANCE.
3. is this between him and my ffl now?
4. what my next move?

thanks in advance.
Retired Naval Aviation
Former Member U.S. Navy Shooting Team
Former NSSA All American
Navy Distinguished Pistol Shot
MO, CT, VA.
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Comments

  • select-fireselect-fire Member Posts: 69,516 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Obviously your ffl didn't use delivery confirmation? How was it advertised. Shipping is not insured shipping and I always specify that.I have always thought IF the Buyer did not INSURE the goods the seller would be off the hook. My question is .. where IS the gun?
  • p3skykingp3skyking Member Posts: 23,916 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    What moron ships a weapon without at least minimum insurance on it?
    FFL OR customer?

    FFL should have all documents that prove he shipped and go from there. Shipper is libel for some amount without insurance unless it's the PO.

    Why are you using an FFL to ship? Aren't you smart enough to box it and ship it?
  • MVPMVP Member Posts: 23,453 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I would contact your FFL and have him trace it through his shipper. Every shipper uses a number that can be traced.
    The first thing to do is ask your FFL for help.
  • MVPMVP Member Posts: 23,453 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Also I would assume your shipping FFL saves his receipts for each shipments.
    I always have the receipts with the dates and buyers name on it. To late now but like was already mentioned always ship with an adult signature required.
  • select-fireselect-fire Member Posts: 69,516 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Feds had a huge sting going here in Columbia at the U.P.S. hub where guns were disappearing. This went on for quite awhile but guess what... they caught the workers stealing packages that had firearms in them. Hopefully they will get to visit Bubba in Atlanta Federal prison.
  • KEVD18KEVD18 Member Posts: 15,037
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
    Why are you using an FFL to ship? Aren't you smart enough to box it and ship it?

    this comment is quite ignorant. there are ffls that wont recieve a gun from a non ffl, regardless of the law. if a buyer will only use an ffl of this type, the fee for the ffl at the sellers end is passed on to the buyer and the deal is done. calling a person stupid in so many words for acquiescing to a buyers request to create a smooth transaction is flat out rude
  • scottm21166scottm21166 Member Posts: 20,723
    edited November -1
    the insurance is for them...fob shipping point....if it went UPS it can be traced...maybe not posted online but they know where the package was last checked in...or out.
    Good news is, it may not be lost forever I had one dissapear for a month and (having been opened) returned to Me
  • MooseyardMooseyard Member Posts: 2,541 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
    What moron ships a weapon without at least minimum insurance on it?
    FFL OR customer?

    FFL should have all documents that prove he shipped and go from there. Shipper is libel for some amount without insurance unless it's the PO.
    Why are you using an FFL to ship? Aren't you smart enough to box it and ship it?


    It is often cheaper to have an FFL ship via USPS, as apposed to a non-FFL shipping UPS next-day. Next-Day runs $40-70
    You shouldn't be calling people morons until you have the facts!
  • dcon12dcon12 Member Posts: 32,036 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Mooseyard
    You shouldn't be calling people morons until you have the facts!


    But after you get the facts, call them whatever you want. Don
  • duckhunterduckhunter Member Posts: 7,687 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    You got the money. You owe the firearm. Very simple. Yor buyer did not do business with your FFL>
  • p3skykingp3skyking Member Posts: 23,916 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Mooseyard
    quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
    What moron ships a weapon without at least minimum insurance on it?
    FFL OR customer?

    FFL should have all documents that prove he shipped and go from there. Shipper is libel for some amount without insurance unless it's the PO.
    Why are you using an FFL to ship? Aren't you smart enough to box it and ship it?


    It is often cheaper to have an FFL ship via USPS, as apposed to a non-FFL shipping UPS next-day. Next-Day runs $40-70
    You shouldn't be calling people morons until you have the facts!


    And you buy USPS minimum insurance for 99 dollars for $1.10 and you get a signature. You have no clue how it works so don't bother me.
  • Colonel PlinkColonel Plink Member Posts: 16,460
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
    quote:Originally posted by Mooseyard
    quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
    What moron ships a weapon without at least minimum insurance on it?
    FFL OR customer?

    FFL should have all documents that prove he shipped and go from there. Shipper is libel for some amount without insurance unless it's the PO.
    Why are you using an FFL to ship? Aren't you smart enough to box it and ship it?


    It is often cheaper to have an FFL ship via USPS, as apposed to a non-FFL shipping UPS next-day. Next-Day runs $40-70
    You shouldn't be calling people morons until you have the facts!


    And you buy USPS minimum insurance for 99 dollars for $1.10 and you get a signature. You have no clue how it works so don't bother me.


    Damn, you're cranky tonight.
  • p3skykingp3skyking Member Posts: 23,916 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by KEVD18
    quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
    Why are you using an FFL to ship? Aren't you smart enough to box it and ship it?

    this comment is quite ignorant. there are ffls that wont recieve a gun from a non ffl, regardless of the law. if a buyer will only use an ffl of this type, the fee for the ffl at the sellers end is passed on to the buyer and the deal is done. calling a person stupid in so many words for acquiescing to a buyers request to create a smooth transaction is flat out rude


    Ignorant huh? I shipped hundreds of packages and never had a problem. Maybe I know what I'm doing. Mind your own business.
  • bigdaddyjuniorbigdaddyjunior Member Posts: 11,233
    edited November -1
    I would think that the shipping ffl owes you an explanation or a gun to ship in place of the uninsured one he sent or sold or who knows what.I had a gun come into an ffl with my name on it and one of the employees sold the thing before I could pick it up. Things happen.
  • 41 nut41 nut Member Posts: 3,016
    edited November -1
    I've always been of the opinion that when I sell a gun (or anything else) that I am responsible for it until it is received by the buyer. It is up to the shipper to insure the item.
  • Rebel_JamesRebel_James Member Posts: 4,746
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by bigdaddyjunior
    I would think that the shipping ffl owes you an explanation or a gun to ship in place of the uninsured one he sent or sold or who knows what.I had a gun come into an ffl with my name on it and one of the employees sold the thing before I could pick it up. Things happen.


    Did they get it back for you ?
  • BlckhrnBlckhrn Member Posts: 5,136
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
    What moron ships a weapon without at least minimum insurance on it?
    FFL OR customer?

    FFL should have all documents that prove he shipped and go from there. Shipper is libel for some amount without insurance unless it's the PO.

    Why are you using an FFL to ship? Aren't you smart enough to box it and ship it?


    Just your average moron.
  • BlckhrnBlckhrn Member Posts: 5,136
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by KEVD18
    quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
    Why are you using an FFL to ship? Aren't you smart enough to box it and ship it?

    this comment is quite ignorant. there are ffls that wont recieve a gun from a non ffl, regardless of the law. if a buyer will only use an ffl of this type, the fee for the ffl at the sellers end is passed on to the buyer and the deal is done. calling a person stupid in so many words for acquiescing to a buyers request to create a smooth transaction is flat out rude


    True that, I just paid a transfer fee on a trapdoor Springfield because the seller insisted on shipping to an FFL.
  • Locust ForkLocust Fork Member Posts: 32,073 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Sometimes things happen....its because we are HUMAN....don't panic or worry too much over it until you have done all you can.

    The FFL holder could have it sitting somewhere in the store and not even realize it hadn't been shipped. Once you checked on it they may have shipped it hoping things all worked out when it got to the buyer.

    The pkg may be a little late....because the mother's day rush...it may have been shipped in a slow way.

    It could be at the recieving FFL holder's place....sitting in a place and nobody noticed it or knows why it is there.

    Just give more time for the people who are involved to run through all possibilities and CALL to pester the heck out of these groups of people so you are certain they are REALLY looking for the gun.

    After all bases are covered...you need to come to an agreement with the buyer. See what he feels is YOUR part of this. Sometimes it is easier to settle and pay out a little just to be done with it all and save the bad mark on your feedback.

    At the MOST....half is all I would offer as a refund. I would definately report it stolen and see if the ATF would do a trace just to see if the gun has been logged in and out to the buyer.

    It really depends on what the buyer thought his options were at the time they bought the gun....but they should have been adult enough to realize that shipping ANYTHING is a bit risky and checked on insurance to be certain it would be covered.
    LOCUST FORK CURRENT AUCTIONS: https://www.gunbroker.com/All/search?Sort=13&IncludeSellers=618902&PageSize=48 Listings added every Thursday! We do consignments, contact us at mckaygunsales@gmail.com
  • p3skykingp3skyking Member Posts: 23,916 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Blckhrn
    quote:Originally posted by KEVD18
    quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
    Why are you using an FFL to ship? Aren't you smart enough to box it and ship it?

    this comment is quite ignorant. there are ffls that wont recieve a gun from a non ffl, regardless of the law. if a buyer will only use an ffl of this type, the fee for the ffl at the sellers end is passed on to the buyer and the deal is done. calling a person stupid in so many words for acquiescing to a buyers request to create a smooth transaction is flat out rude


    True that, I just paid a transfer fee on a trapdoor Springfield because the seller insisted on shipping to an FFL.


    You needed to hold his feet to the fire and not let him BS you. You paid you money for an antique not covered by the GCA. You should have told him you had no FFL close and the weapon did not need to go through an FFL. Furthrer, you expected the rifle or you money back asap. Tell him to contact his local ATF if he had any questions.
    Of course if he had in his listing he would only ship to an FFL, it pretty much is your fault for bidding.
  • SperrySperry Member Posts: 5,006 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    It's probably on someone's front porch; the door they never use except Christmas and Easter.
    It'll be a long wait, but it will turn up someday.
  • p3skykingp3skyking Member Posts: 23,916 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    For KevD and Moose:

    This is why I call people morons that allow themselves to get stuck. This is a line out of one of my listings;

    Shipping is a twenty two dollar bill to your FFL or C&R. I cover the first $99 of insurance. If you want more, it's an additional $1. per hundred.


    I get special handling and a signature upon delivery. All for a buck ten. Whether the item is $10., or $10,000, always CYA by a signature requirement.
  • KEVD18KEVD18 Member Posts: 15,037
    edited November -1
    you missed the point. you were breaking the guys balls for sending a firearm through an ffl to an ffl instead of shipping it himself which is asinine for the above mentioned reasons.

    and i would imagine no ffl on the planet would ship a package attached to their license unless they had packed it themselves, or at the very least examined it, hence having the dealer ship the gun. perfectly reasonable the whole way round.....
  • COLTCOLT Member Posts: 12,637 ******
    edited November -1
    ...oh man. Check with your attorney to see if your liable, try to get out in front of the game,...laws can be funny. I will not send a gun if buyer refuses to insure, ins. is CHEAP. Good luck bobski...[;)]




    ani-texas-flag.gif
  • p3skykingp3skyking Member Posts: 23,916 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by KEVD18
    you missed the point. you were breaking the guys balls for sending a firearm through an ffl to an ffl instead of shipping it himself which is asinine for the above mentioned reasons.



    Was an FFL sender required? Why pay someone to trot down to the PO if you don't have to? ANYONE can send longguns throught the Postal system? Maybe Bob would have gotten at least a little insurance and negated this whole problem.

    So since you don't know if an FFL was even required or if it was a long gun or handgun, you have no business telling me anything.
  • Colonel PlinkColonel Plink Member Posts: 16,460
    edited November -1
    Yup. You can always tell p3skyking.......
    ........but ya can't tell him much...
    BaDaBoom!

    Thank you, thank you.
    I'll be here all week.
  • p3skykingp3skyking Member Posts: 23,916 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Colonel Plink
    Yup. You can always tell p3skyking.......
    ........but ya can't tell him much...
    BaDaBoom!



    Yeah it's hard, but I did learn about a Supreme Court ruling I didn't know about the other day.

    Life is not that difficult to navigate. One must only be able to look ahead for the shoals and avoid them.
  • Colonel PlinkColonel Plink Member Posts: 16,460
    edited November -1
  • kimberkidkimberkid Member Posts: 8,858 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Next step would be to contact the shipping FFL.
    quote: Originally posted by 41 nut
    I've always been of the opinion that when I sell a gun (or anything else) that I am responsible for it until it is received by the buyer. It is up to the shipper to insure the item.

    Shipping and insurance is an additional cost, not part of the selling price.

    I consider myself no longer responsible for the item when it leaves my hands. The buyer is assuming the risk by not picking it up themselves ... it doesn't matter if they are on the other side of the world; they are trusting a 3rd and/or 4th parties to look out for their best interest.

    IMHO

    If you offered insurance and were refused - no, you're not responsible.

    If you were instructed to ship FFL-to-FFL and you did - no, you're not responsible.

    Not enough info here, too many "if's";
    If you really desire something, you'll find a way ?
    ? otherwise, you'll find an excuse.
  • bobskibobski Member Posts: 17,866 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    i paid the ffl 30.00 to ship the gun ffl to ffl. how he shipped it is beyond me. thats his business. 2 weeks ago, i called to see if this gun had been shipped. he found it in his shop. he forgot. ok, first scare deverted. so, 2 weeks ago, buyer calls and says its still not there. i call back, he sent it. great. week goes by, still no gun. thats where i am now. im getting input from you guys. but,
    stay focused guys.
    Retired Naval Aviation
    Former Member U.S. Navy Shooting Team
    Former NSSA All American
    Navy Distinguished Pistol Shot
    MO, CT, VA.
  • bigdaddyjuniorbigdaddyjunior Member Posts: 11,233
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Rebel_James
    quote:Originally posted by bigdaddyjunior
    I would think that the shipping ffl owes you an explanation or a gun to ship in place of the uninsured one he sent or sold or who knows what.I had a gun come into an ffl with my name on it and one of the employees sold the thing before I could pick it up. Things happen.


    Did they get it back for you ?


    No they could not very well ask for it back so I had them replace it with another just like it.
  • bigdaddyjuniorbigdaddyjunior Member Posts: 11,233
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by bobski
    i paid the ffl 30.00 to ship the gun ffl to ffl. how he shipped it is beyond me. thats his business. 2 weeks ago, i called to see if this gun had been shipped. he found it in his shop. he forgot. ok, first scare deverted. so, 2 weeks ago, buyer calls and says its still not there. i call back, he sent it. great. week goes by, still no gun. thats where i am now. im getting input from you guys. but,
    stay focused guys.


    Verify the address and all and have your shipping ffl call the recieving ffl and make damn sure they don't have it on the for sale racks or transfered to someone else by the same name etc..
  • WarbirdsWarbirds Member Posts: 16,934 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    If the gun was shipped USPS (which you should be able to find out in just one phone call to the FFL) I would just wait. I had to wait almost 3 weeks for a shotgun to show up last fall. Similar situation to yours. It turned up. If it did go USPS and it was insured I think you have to wait 30 days for them to consider it lost, and you can start from there. Where I could see from his point that you are liable is that he has done nothing wrong. He just gave you money, and never got a product. And if it is similar to your other auctions shipping fees were between 25-30 dollars or "buyer pays actual shipping". In my lost shotgun situation last fall the seller offered to refund my money and then we were going to pursue the U.S. post office insurance and any money back from them would have eventually gone back to the seller.

    There is no way you can make it the buyers' fault or responsibility, in my opinion. All he has done is given you money, including money to get the product to him.
    You charged him to ship it, you should be responsible to make sure it got there.
  • MooseyardMooseyard Member Posts: 2,541 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    skyking . He claims we are not minding our own business, yet he is the one who interjected his rude comments. You don't know if the gun was a handgun or longgun.
  • bsallybsally Member Posts: 3,165
    edited November -1
    The actual shipper must put in the claim with the shipper. There is nothing you can do as far as tracing it. Don't hold your breath, hopefully it was insured and you'll, actually the shipper, will get a check from them. This just happened to me over the last couple weeks. UPS lost (stole) a muzzleloaded shipped from Austin&Halleck. They had to put the tracer out and they are getting a check from UPS as they say they can not find it. I'll get the gun eventually.[}:)]
  • p3skykingp3skyking Member Posts: 23,916 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Mooseyard
    skyking . He claims we are not minding our own business, yet he is the one who interjected his rude comments. You don't know if the gun was a handgun or longgun.


    My comments were addressing the topic of the post. What were yours addressing? Why don't you check to see if it was a long gun or a hand gun. I already have a good idea.
  • glabrayglabray Member Posts: 679 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I always ship via UPS and never use USPS. Why? Because I find USPS tracking useless unless the package has already been delivered. With UPS you can get detailed info as to exactly where the package has been and when.
  • MIKE WISKEYMIKE WISKEY Member Posts: 10,044 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    DON'T GIVE UP YET, I HADA PACKAGE TAKE 21 DAYS, SHIPPED USPS PRIORITY/INS/DELIV. CONF. SENT ALL THE INFO TO THE BUYER AND GUESS WHAT?, THE GUN SHOWED UP AT THE DEALERS THE NEXT DAY.
  • ghotie_thumperghotie_thumper Member Posts: 1,561 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I would think that if you took the shipping ffl a gun had him package and ship it he would be responsible to your customer, especially since he lost it once already. All the wonderful advice about insurance isn't going to help your situation. It is good advice though, I don't sell guns but when I buy I always pay extra for the insurance. Do you have a receipt from the shipper for service rendered? I think that would relieve you from your liability. If you had shipped it yourself I'd say you were 100% responsible.
  • magmag Member Posts: 464 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
    And you buy USPS minimum insurance for 99 dollars for $1.10 and you get a signature. You have no clue how it works so don't bother me.



    Amount of Insurance and Fees Amount of insurance desired
    Fee in addition to postage

    $0.01 to $50.00
    $1.35

    50.01 to 100.00
    2.30

    100.01 to 200.00
    3.35

    200.01 to 300.00
    4.40

    300.01 to 400.00
    5.45

    400.01 to 500.00
    6.50
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