In order to participate in the GunBroker Member forums, you must be logged in with your GunBroker.com account. Click the sign-in button at the top right of the forums page to get connected.
What would you do?.....
Rembrandt
Member Posts: 4,486 ✭✭
Say your a gun dealer and someone fits a particular terrorist or gang profile....and wants to buy large quantities of ammo and guns. All their papers check out....how would you handle it?
Comments
Another time, before Brady, a man from a Central American country known for political unrest picked out 6 used Smith & Wesson revolvers.
He checked out fine, so I sold him the guns and sent in a multiple form on the sale. He didn't say whether he intended to export the guns, and I didn't ask. Figured that was between him and Customs.
SIG pistol armorer/FFL Dealer/Full time Peace Officer, Moderator of General Discussion Board on Gunbroker. Visit www.gunbroker.com, the best gun auction site on the Net! Email davidnunn@texoma.net
I like for my guns to go to good homes.
SIG pistol armorer/FFL Dealer/Full time Peace Officer, Moderator of General Discussion Board on Gunbroker. Visit www.gunbroker.com, the best gun auction site on the Net! Email davidnunn@texoma.net
Lord Lowrider the LoquaciousMember:Secret Select Society of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets She was only a fisherman's daughter,But when she saw my rod she reeled.
Save, research, then buy the best.Join the NRA, NOW!Teach them young, teach them safe, teach them forever, but most of all, teach them to VOTE!
doc
if your going to be a savage, be a headhunter
Oh yeah, what I would have done would be to have started asking a lot of questions, and told him right up front that I thought it strange, and even though some people might be offended at the questions, I'm asking them of you, and if you have a problem with it you can take your business down the street, because I will not be part of anyone being harmed due to my ignorance.
SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC
Edited by - robsguns on 09/15/2002 16:54:31
Rugster
Toujours Pret
"If you ain't got pictures, I wasn't there."
Margaret Thatcher
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."
Mark Twain
Could you imagine what would happen to our gun rights as we know them now if a terrorist managed to buy a bunch of guns and ammo at the hometown legitimate gun dealer and killed many many people with them!
I would bet that every gun dealer in the USA would have it's doors nailed shut by the ATF and all the guns and ect taken away.
And as far as profiling we all fit a profile of some sort.
and far as profiling goes toward terrorists....IT WAS'NT WHITE 20-40 YR OLD FARM BOYS HIGHJACKING PLANES AND FLYING PLANES INTO BUILDINGS.
Doc
I have to laugh, because the gun dealers I know are more than anxious to sell, sell, sell. Reserve the right to refuse to sell? Baahahaha!
But they are also very up on the law around here and will start treating you like a dunce if you ask a lot of stupid questions about buying illegal stuff. They are not willing to risk their FFL on a bad sale.
If a guy fits a certain description and buys multiple guns & ammo, I would say the curse is taken off me as a dealer by the fact that a multiple purchase form has to be filled out in any case. If I felt the need to make a call and urge that a particular form not be passed over too quickly, I would not hesitate to do so. If it smells, I'm going to be a good citizen. And I don't mean turning in a basically good American for shaving the law on a folding stock for self protection. I'm talking about turning in Osama for buying a dozen black rifles, a lot of ammo and a whole lot of solvents and primers, for example. But then, I don't have an FFL anyway. If I did, and I were obeying the letter of the law, I would not be allowed to sell the American the folder, maybe, but I would not be breaking the law in some states by selling the arsenal to Osama. That's a bit backward in spirit, and I would want to make up for the law's lack of foresight by suggesting a little well placed attention from LEOs to confirm that the buy was harmless.
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
I want to address your post, since I feel it is probably directed towards my comment, if its not, I'll address it anyway, because I feel the shoe fits.
Your post as follows:It is interesting to see the hypocritical stance taken by some in this thread, who would deliberately hinder another citizen's ability to exercise their 2nd Amendment rights by refusing them sale of arms based on what they alone have determined would be "good for the country".
First the word that irritates me is hypocritical. I am not hypocritical, nor do I believe are others who think like me on this thread. As far as I know we all believe that selling guns to criminals, would be criminals/terrorists, or people that clearly demonstrate they pose a threat to others based on information about them is wrong. I am not a hypocrite, I have always believed that, and always will. I believe in my 2nd amendment rights to keep and bear arms, but I do not believe everyone has that right once they have demonstrated to the contrary, I have always believed that, and always stated that. Some people shouldnt be allowed to breathe let alone have a firearm, I dont care what the constitution states. That doesnt make me a hypocrite, that makes me someone who can think, someone that can interpret the law, and use common sense to prevent someone from getting hold of a gun that should never have had one in the first place. Just as you dont let a child molestor baby sit for you, you also do not give a gun to a person who fits the description in every way shape and form of a dangerous person. Can I and do I feel competent and intelligent enough to do what is best for the country?, you bet your butt I do, and you better hope there are more people like me, because if you think anyone is better qualafied to judge a gun owner than another gun owner, you are wrong. I will not let anyone tell me I am not informed enough to know what is good for this country, period, because I do know, believe me. I know that putting everyones second amendment right first and foremost above all else without using any logical reasoning behind who you are allowing to have that gun is only the logic of an idiot. That is what I call stupid. This is not hypocritical, it is smart, and common sense. Trying to cover everyone with the second amendment right as if its a protective blanket, well, that time has gone. That is what will have all of us stripped of our second amendment rights, defending every scum's right to have one, so that he can do something stupid with his right, thats stupid. Be that as it may, this is just me exercising my right to freedom of speech. You have your opinion of what you think is a hypocrite, and I have my opinion of what is intelligent and what is purely stupid thinking.
SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC
Edited by - robsguns on 09/15/2002 23:53:11
I suggest that this from your original post:
"I dont care what you call it, anytime you think someone is up to no good, and do what you think is best, based on what ever information you glean either from their personal appearance, outside sources, or personal observation of their actions, you are doing the right thing..."
...and this from your last post:
"As far as I know we all believe that selling guns to criminals, would be criminals/terrorists, or people that clearly demonstrate they pose a threat to others based on information about them..."
...so dilutes and so changes and so back-pedals from your original criteria that further argument is unnecessary. And the fact is, given even your revised criteria, the likes of Timothy McVey would walk out of your store with a smile and an armload of guns.
Edited by - DancesWithSheep on 09/15/2002 23:13:39
You are obviously very confused over what I stated in my post, and even taken out of context, it can not be construed to mean that I ever said anything different in my second post that I previously stated in my first post. I also make it quite clear that under no circumstances would I sell to anyone if I thought them to be dangerous with a gun, meaning they might use it to harm others. What post are you reading?? Could T.M. possibly make it into a gun shop and out if his papers checked out, most likely, because from what I've seen of him before his death, he didnt fit anyone's idea of a dangerous person through his appearance, so that statement you made about him, would be correct. There is nothing anyone can do about people like him getting guns, because he is the type that has no record until hes done his deed. That is no reflection on any dealer, thats just how it is.
I see that in my first post I left out two key words from a sentence that you quoted. I've since corrected that sentence in the last two words to read, 'is wrong'. You should have been able to figure that out, as that sentence made no sense without those 2 words inserted at the end. Typo, shame on me. The entire first post and second post clearly express a disdain for anyone selling guns to someone who should not have a gun, either from your own gut feeling, or judgement of that person to be dangerous at that time. Nothing hypocritical going on in this thread, from anyone. I stand by my words, the 2nd amendment may be a constitutional right, but I wont just give it away to everyone if I ever get a license to sell, the sale be damned. If more people exercised good judgement and common sense we would not be where we are today. The fact that Rembrandt asked this question is a credit to him, as most people wouldnt even care, they'd just take the money.
SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC
Edited by - robsguns on 09/16/2002 00:01:19
I know what I would do, and I think that is where Ryan is coming from in his post.
Boomer
"Success is to be measured not so much by the position that one has reached in life as it is by the obstacles which one has overcome while trying to succeed."NRA Life Member
SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC
Boomer
"Success is to be measured not so much by the position that one has reached in life as it is by the obstacles which one has overcome while trying to succeed."NRA Life Member
Sorry, I didn't see your post. NO, I wouldn't. But what gives me the feeling in my gut is individualized, and not based on any profile or set criteria.
Edited by - DancesWithSheep on 09/16/2002 00:26:23
Boomer
"Success is to be measured not so much by the position that one has reached in life as it is by the obstacles which one has overcome while trying to succeed."NRA Life Member
I think that sucks! That's the same sh#t that got us the assault weapons ban, cuz you know, that protruding hand grip and flash hider make the gun bad. What, are you going to look into a crystal ball from now on to see what a buyer might do with a gun sometime after the sale? Good luck! I hope we won't all have to look like Mr. Clever to buy guns now!
Got Guns?
So, let me get this straight, you are saying you would knowlingly sell a gun to someone you think would probably use it to commit a crime. Yes or no.
Boomer
"Success is to be measured not so much by the position that one has reached in life as it is by the obstacles which one has overcome while trying to succeed."NRA Life Member
I can't believe you guys are saying that based on YOUR feelings, you can tell who should, and should not have a gun. Besides, thugs get guns off the street, not from judgemental(sp) dealers who think they know everything about a person by the way he looks or acts. Besides, "reserving the right to refuse service to anyone" based on looks or feelings truly borders on racisim.
Got Guns?
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
(And I hope to he!! this makes sense, 'cause I'm really tired)
Nobody wants to be indirectly responsible for, (even if they were not suspect of the buyer at the time), supporting a terrorist activity.
Most all of us here feel VERY strongly about our 2nd Amendment rights, and a strong resilience against the further restriction or loss of these rights.
We WILL lose ground if terrorists ever obtain arms and ammo through the same sources you and I use. No doubt about it.
The solution, as I see it, is somewheres in the middle- Why not do something in the middle- If the guy is suspect to you, but doesn't seem all kinds of wrong, just a little peculier(SP), why not tell the guy his NICS check was not a proceed, and is a "hold". More than likely, if he's a honest citizen, he'll return in three days.
If he REALLY gives you a slimy feeling, and I mean a deep-down warning klaxon in the pit of yer guts- do one of two things. Refuse the sale- That's your right as a private citizen, sorry, there's another gunstore down the road, or tell him it's a "hold" on the NICS, and the moment he leaves, drop a dime. You might say I'm promoting an agent network for the feds or whatever, but like CowDoc said-quote: IT WAS'NT WHITE 20-40 YR OLD FARM BOYS HIGHJACKING PLANES AND FLYING PLANES INTO BUILDINGS.
Yeah the McVey argument is compelling, but, just like what was stated, you'll never know 'til he snaps and it's done. I guess in a free country like this, you gotta take your chances and occasionlly encrouch on personal freedoms and liberties, yeah, we do hand a "win" to the anti-gunners if you refuse the sale, but it's better than helping someone to perpetrate a crime because you can't see the forest for the trees.
Reserving my Right to Arm Bears!!!!
Edited by - Matt45 on 09/16/2002 18:10:44
The only thing you need to do is put yourself in a parents position as I said earlier. If you wouldnt hire a guy or girl to baby sit for you based on your gut feeling and that is the smart thing to go with, you can definitely apply that same reasoning to selling a gun to anyone. The bottom line here is that if you sell that gun to that guy, he doesnt need to be a terrorist, he might just be the guy to go kidnap your child. As a parent I think a lot differently than I use to, and now I put everything into the perspective of, 'Is it going to possibly harm my child?' My gut feeling is what I go with, from my guns in the house being loaded or unloaded, to the way I think on environmental issues. Selling a gun to someone who by my gut feeling doesnt sit well with me, is not something I'm going to do either, and its not nearly as important to me as my child.
SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC
The reply comes back... AfriCANS, mexiCANS, puertoriCANS, so then you refuse the sale by saying you don't have one.
A man has to follow his instincts, or we will all suffer.
Anybody got a .357 for sale? Just kidding
ATF
Ok- fixed.
Reserving my Right to Arm Bears!!!!
This thread started out asking one question and became clouded by asking another. To use your bartender analogy, the "discretion" at issue is not:
"Sir, you've had too much to drink and are becoming loud and unruly. You'll have to leave."
...it is:
"Sir, you're a Middle Eastern male between 20-40 years of age. You'll have to leave."
I suggest that only the first example is discretion.
What people do with the firearms I sell them is their business. If my gut feeling is not to sell to someone because I am not sure if their intentions are honorable, thats my business.
Up until now, I didn't realize that having an FFL elevated you to the Judicial branch of the government.
This government has caused many of the problems we are facing today by allowing our borders to be crossed by anyone from anywhere. Those 9/11 terrorists got into the country and were able to learn to fly aircraft even though this government had intelligence reports months and months before that Al-queda was contimplating using aircraft as bombs on American soil.
Now that puts me as an FFL dealer in a precarious position. Do I sell a firearm to someone from the middle east that was allowed to come into this country so easily and may or may not be a terrorist. I don't trust my government enough to believe they have effectively checked that person for me to sell them a gun.
I am a lifetime member of the NRA and will defend our second ammendment rights as long as I live. But until I trust my government to secure our borders, I won't sell a firearm to a middle easterner.