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GMAYES i don't know anyone who looks like an H.A. you act like one and fly your colors..
Sorry but no one looks like a H.A. unless they have colors on to me..
And if i was a dealer i would say look like it or lump it but i will not do buisness with you.
1. If i offend you sorry not my fault.
2. If we blew up your country and then wanted to buy guns could we ?
3. I have no feelings for anyone who put's thier country's name before mine ie: mexican-american and so on
4. And yes our borders are too wide open
That's me i can act and do like i want.
Hell in muslim country's let a white man be found after a bombing his * is grass..They don't give a rat's butt why should I
Robsguns, you said it very well. Your post was excellent.I certainly would never want to sell a firearm to a criminal or a terrorist.As long as they pass a backround check and my instincts are not such that I feel uncomfortable about selling them a gun, I will sell the gun. However, I will not sell to a person of middle eastern descent even if they are an American citizen. I know that is extreme, but until I can trust my government to secure our borders a lot better than they are now, that's the way I will handle gun sales to Middle Easterners. Am I profiling a group of people? Yes, unfortunately. Am I hypocritical? No. The second ammendment insures the right of law abiding citizens to own firearms. Since 9/11, I am unsure of the law abiding part when it comes to middle easterners. I know that is not a popular view with everyone, but thats what 3,000 plus American deaths do to me. Just my honest opinion.
Sounds like a lot of guys here have Sarah Brady as a mother. What part of "The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" don't you yet understand?
I didn't see any codicil excepting those of the tattooed variety.
You can spout all you want, but it is still hypocrisy.
If the buyer passes the check, he has a right to own a gun.
If the seller doesn't want to sell it, that's his choice.
Are we making assumtions now as to who the Second Amendment applies to?
It applies to "The People."
Period. You guys would make a great "secret police"!!!
If they screw up, that is on THEIR heads, not ours!
What about knives? Would you sell them a knife? What about a box-cutter? Remember, the planes weren't hijacked with anything illegal, or hard to get......so why are we making all this fuss about a GUN?
Slippery slope people, very slippery........
Merc
NO! You may not have my guns! Now go crawl back into your hole!
****************************************
"Tolerating things you may not necessarily like is part of being free" - Larry Flynt
Is the A.T.F. profiling, when they ask what country the purchaser was born in on the yellow sheet? I don't think so.
The dealer has every right to NOT sell any goods to ANYBODY they choose.
Hopefully common sense is still legal in the United States. It is people from middle east (some American citizens) that have declared war on America. If three middle eastern men walk into your gun shop and want to purchase 3 AK-47's. And if, after passing the N.C.I.C. check, these men walk out of your store with these weapons after all of the paperwork is done. I wonder if the money that the gun shop owner made is worth the chance that maybe he/or she has contributed to the murder of Americans by people that have declared war on America.
If I was a dealer I would not sell the weapons to the middle eastern men.
When we use a persons race as a form of identification,ie, middle eastern muslims want to kill Americans, I don't feel that is racism. It is just common sense. In my opinion, "hate" is the key word for it to qualify as being racist. I repeat, using common sense is not "hate" and should still be allowed in this Great United States of America!!
I don't understand what all the discussion is about. If a person checks out and is given a proceed- you sell the firearm! Thats the law. I hope Brady isn't monitoring this- how great it would be if all gun dealers were liberal facists- you fill out the yellow form, get a proceed and they decide a dumb old farm boy, 20-40 doesn't really need another gun so- no sale! Its like a pet store I know of here- they sell goldfish- but not if you look like you might be going fishing- everyone knows big cats like goldfish- no sale
I thought you dealers were in the gun buisness to sell guns-Legally of course- why all the discussion?
The real question some of you seem to be debating is if a guy walks into your store- receives a do not sale- but seems like a nice young man- do you tell him to meet you at the flea market this weekend and do a private sale- of course you don't, knowing what you already know.
The gov has the yellow form- it covers your asse$- leave your feelings out of it and follow the law to the letter- some of you sound like Klinton-"give up some rights for security"
my 2 cents-Ralph
Nothing very, very good or very, very bad lasts for very, very long.
I do not see the problem. If they check out fine sell them the gun. I look like a thug ( that is what my mom says) when I am not in my work clothes but I am not a criminal.
If you will blame gun makers for every shooting then blame car maker for every car accident.
Well, I guess we have just about `beat' this topic to death. However, I do have one more observation/comment to make. I know that my take on personal responsibility or lack there of is going to piss off some of you, but here goes.
People that believe they can excuse their negligent, irresponsible actions by saying they are following the `letter of the law', deeply disgust me. Some of you may recall that we recently had a president that used the `letter of the law' to excuse his irresponsible actions. "I guess it all depends on what your definition of `is' is." Give me a break.
Some of you apparently are unable to grasp the concept that with our individual rights and freedom come responsibilities. For those of you that would, by your own admission, sell guns and ammunition to someone you believe or feel has a high potential to either be a terrorist or criminal, even though they passed their NICS, should, IMHO, have their FFL revoked.
Lastly, for those of you asserting that your irresponsible/reckless behavior is somehow protecting our `Second Amendment' right is in itself hypocrisy to the highest degree.
Boomer
"Success is to be measured not so much by the position that one has reached in life as it is by the obstacles which one has overcome while trying to succeed."NRA Life Member
What are you people thinking about?????? NOT sell someone a gun because of what they look like. How STUPID!!!!!!!!!!!!! Alot of AMERICAN CITIZENS that were BORN in this GREAT COUNTRY of AMERICA are from middle eatern decent and look the "image". So your saying not all AMERICANS have the right to keep and bear arms????? What has this GREAT NATION come too?????
Apparently, gun owners have decided to take the Constitution into their own hands and decide who is trustworthy and who is not, based upon appearance, without even having any clue what the person is about.
Kinda like the anti-gun forces have been doing sonce before I was born.
By the way, it's not legal for a non-citizen to purchase a firearm.
Keep excluding others, in a judgemental fashion, from the laws and rights which you so proudly promulgate daily, and they will be coming for yours soon.
And you are giving them ammunition to use in their task.
The task of ridding the United States of privately held firearms.
It's clear as the print on any page.
Some people feel that they are entitled to bear arms, but others are not, because of what they look like.
Can you spell: Fascist??
Once again, what part of the Second Amendment do you not understand???
Beaten to Death?
Maybe.
Can't be beaten enough, though.
IT's A RIGHT, DAMMIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No group can remove the rights of any individual unless that individual has violated the rights of another. That's the line.
Guess what? Read the freaking Constitution!!!!
There are no exclusions to rights, except the "rights" which are GIVEN to the government by the people. The rights of the people are not open to discussion by any group, nor by any individual. They merely exist.
The end does not justify the means. No one's rights can be secured by a violation of the rights of another.
Since man DOES possess inalienable individual rights, that must mean that the SAME rights are held by all, as individuals, at all times. The rights of one can never supercede the rights of another.
So go on as you will, and give away your individual rights as a way to "feel good."
It won't feel too good when your rights are finally stripped away.
And I hope that it won't feel good when you realize that you helped cause it.
Because you're doing a great job of it right now.
I agree! When you do a background check and the person is declined then you should question whether you should sell the gun. If a person has tattoos and a shaved head what exactly does that mean? The only thing that it means is the person doesn't have hair and he has spent some money on ink. I sometimes fall under this category and I have never thought about shooting up a place. A persons appearance and beliefs should not hinder their right to bear arms!!! Who knows maybe when push comes to shove this guy will be on our side. And for all of you Biblical people out there the Bible says "Judge not less you shall be judged". God isn't going to let anything happen that he doesn't want to happen!!!! And if this person were really looking to buy a gun to commit a crime he can find plenty of guns with no paperwork at all, why in his right mind would he buy a gun from a dealer with a paper trail??? Come on people quit being hypocrites and support our second ammendment rights.
I said my piece, but in retrospect, I'm quite thankful that my gun dealer is a supporter of the 2nd admendment! It seems some of you have totally wiped out all the equal rights victories this country has enjoyed for the past 30-50 yrs. Some opinions expressed here seem to point to a one-group-is-better-than-another mindset. Thats racism at its best. I guess I'm just not as good a judge of character as some of you out there are. Although Hitler and Stalin probably thought they were good character judges also, history contradicts their claims. Ever hear the saying " If you're not with us, you're against us" ? This country has enough "lukewarm patriots" -Ralph
Nothing very, very good or very, very bad lasts for very, very long.
After all is said and done, a lawsuit or two will probably be filed. It will be a very high-profile lawsuit and the media will slant it in such a way that the entire liberal population (along with some conservatives) will want to see your gun store shut down. The ATF will be under intense political pressure to find a way to do so even if you did nothing wrong in this situation. Your reputation will be shot even among shooters. I say this because most "hunters" that I know believe the second ammendment protects their deer rifle but are perfectly happy to see the "black guns" go away. I call them sheeple. There are enough sheeple that damage will be done that can't be undone.
idsman75: It is logically impossible to refuse service without reason, no matter how arbitrary or unarticulable that reason may be. The bartender example was meant only to show the difference between service refusal based on judgment vs service refusal based on profile.
Often the mind believes it is thinking, when it is only passing from one metaphor to the next.
No, Matt --
They don't get it. I mean that in two ways.
First, it seems that some people are so stuck on the amendment that they would help others take away our freedoms (and possibly our lives) by selling to anyone under the auspices of political correctness.
Secondly; I am a pretty good judge of people. I can look past the tattoos and other appearances, and by asking a few simple questions can determine what I think their motives are in buying a weapon. If I get the right answers, I'd sell to them. If I don't, they don't get it!
I don't sell much anymore, but when I did go to shows all my inventory was mine. No consignment, mine. Since I owned them, I felt that I had the right to sell them or not sell them to anyone I chose.
I never had price tags on anything. When someone wanted to look at one of my guns, I'd show it and talk to them. If I wanted to sell the gun, I'd quote a reasonable price. If I didn't; I'd quote an unreasonable price - and they would usually leave. Now, even if a person of arab descent tried to buy a gun from me, I'd ask the usual questions - and if they checked out, they'd own the gun.
If a person comes across to me as a hood, crazy, gangbanger, thief or terrorist, they're going to leave emptyhanded, at least from me.
Some of our more liberal posters on this board will yell "foul" and others would just sell to them. Those same thugs or terrorists could be waiting in the bushes when you get home, and get their money back plus more, and take your life in the process!
That has happened before gentlemen, wake up!
"If you can do it, it ain't braggin'".
JR Ewing - "Dallas"
Matt45/OLD SF-ER: Your posts at last convince me that our prolonged frequentation of this thread is not due to the unwillingness of some to reason; it is due to the unwillingness of some to read.
Often the mind believes it is thinking, when it is only passing from one metaphor to the next.
Comments
Sorry but no one looks like a H.A. unless they have colors on to me..
And if i was a dealer i would say look like it or lump it but i will not do buisness with you.
1. If i offend you sorry not my fault.
2. If we blew up your country and then wanted to buy guns could we ?
3. I have no feelings for anyone who put's thier country's name before mine ie: mexican-american and so on
4. And yes our borders are too wide open
That's me i can act and do like i want.
Hell in muslim country's let a white man be found after a bombing his * is grass..They don't give a rat's butt why should I
WHEW got that off my chest lol
NRA MEMBER
I didn't see any codicil excepting those of the tattooed variety.
You can spout all you want, but it is still hypocrisy.
If the buyer passes the check, he has a right to own a gun.
If the seller doesn't want to sell it, that's his choice.
Are we making assumtions now as to who the Second Amendment applies to?
It applies to "The People."
Period. You guys would make a great "secret police"!!!
If they pass the check, sell it to them.
If they screw up, that is on THEIR heads, not ours!
What about knives? Would you sell them a knife? What about a box-cutter? Remember, the planes weren't hijacked with anything illegal, or hard to get......so why are we making all this fuss about a GUN?
Slippery slope people, very slippery........
Merc
NO! You may not have my guns! Now go crawl back into your hole!
****************************************
"Tolerating things you may not necessarily like is part of being free" - Larry Flynt
The dealer has every right to NOT sell any goods to ANYBODY they choose.
Hopefully common sense is still legal in the United States. It is people from middle east (some American citizens) that have declared war on America. If three middle eastern men walk into your gun shop and want to purchase 3 AK-47's. And if, after passing the N.C.I.C. check, these men walk out of your store with these weapons after all of the paperwork is done. I wonder if the money that the gun shop owner made is worth the chance that maybe he/or she has contributed to the murder of Americans by people that have declared war on America.
If I was a dealer I would not sell the weapons to the middle eastern men.
When we use a persons race as a form of identification,ie, middle eastern muslims want to kill Americans, I don't feel that is racism. It is just common sense. In my opinion, "hate" is the key word for it to qualify as being racist. I repeat, using common sense is not "hate" and should still be allowed in this Great United States of America!!
"Just my opinion."
I thought you dealers were in the gun buisness to sell guns-Legally of course- why all the discussion?
The real question some of you seem to be debating is if a guy walks into your store- receives a do not sale- but seems like a nice young man- do you tell him to meet you at the flea market this weekend and do a private sale- of course you don't, knowing what you already know.
The gov has the yellow form- it covers your asse$- leave your feelings out of it and follow the law to the letter- some of you sound like Klinton-"give up some rights for security"
my 2 cents-Ralph
Nothing very, very good or very, very bad lasts for very, very long.
If you will blame gun makers for every shooting then blame car maker for every car accident.
Give your kids roots and wings. and dont forget the guns!!
People that believe they can excuse their negligent, irresponsible actions by saying they are following the `letter of the law', deeply disgust me. Some of you may recall that we recently had a president that used the `letter of the law' to excuse his irresponsible actions. "I guess it all depends on what your definition of `is' is." Give me a break.
Some of you apparently are unable to grasp the concept that with our individual rights and freedom come responsibilities. For those of you that would, by your own admission, sell guns and ammunition to someone you believe or feel has a high potential to either be a terrorist or criminal, even though they passed their NICS, should, IMHO, have their FFL revoked.
Lastly, for those of you asserting that your irresponsible/reckless behavior is somehow protecting our `Second Amendment' right is in itself hypocrisy to the highest degree.
Boomer
"Success is to be measured not so much by the position that one has reached in life as it is by the obstacles which one has overcome while trying to succeed."NRA Life Member
Edited by - Boomerang on 09/19/2002 22:22:18
Kinda like the anti-gun forces have been doing sonce before I was born.
By the way, it's not legal for a non-citizen to purchase a firearm.
Keep excluding others, in a judgemental fashion, from the laws and rights which you so proudly promulgate daily, and they will be coming for yours soon.
And you are giving them ammunition to use in their task.
The task of ridding the United States of privately held firearms.
It's clear as the print on any page.
Some people feel that they are entitled to bear arms, but others are not, because of what they look like.
Can you spell: Fascist??
Once again, what part of the Second Amendment do you not understand???
Beaten to Death?
Maybe.
Can't be beaten enough, though.
IT's A RIGHT, DAMMIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No group can remove the rights of any individual unless that individual has violated the rights of another. That's the line.
Guess what? Read the freaking Constitution!!!!
There are no exclusions to rights, except the "rights" which are GIVEN to the government by the people. The rights of the people are not open to discussion by any group, nor by any individual. They merely exist.
The end does not justify the means. No one's rights can be secured by a violation of the rights of another.
Since man DOES possess inalienable individual rights, that must mean that the SAME rights are held by all, as individuals, at all times. The rights of one can never supercede the rights of another.
So go on as you will, and give away your individual rights as a way to "feel good."
It won't feel too good when your rights are finally stripped away.
And I hope that it won't feel good when you realize that you helped cause it.
Because you're doing a great job of it right now.
Nothing very, very good or very, very bad lasts for very, very long.
Often the mind believes it is thinking, when it is only passing from one metaphor to the next.
DON'T YOU GUYS GET IT???????????????????????????
Reserving my Right to Arm Bears!!!!
They don't get it. I mean that in two ways.
First, it seems that some people are so stuck on the amendment that they would help others take away our freedoms (and possibly our lives) by selling to anyone under the auspices of political correctness.
Secondly; I am a pretty good judge of people. I can look past the tattoos and other appearances, and by asking a few simple questions can determine what I think their motives are in buying a weapon. If I get the right answers, I'd sell to them. If I don't, they don't get it!
I don't sell much anymore, but when I did go to shows all my inventory was mine. No consignment, mine. Since I owned them, I felt that I had the right to sell them or not sell them to anyone I chose.
I never had price tags on anything. When someone wanted to look at one of my guns, I'd show it and talk to them. If I wanted to sell the gun, I'd quote a reasonable price. If I didn't; I'd quote an unreasonable price - and they would usually leave. Now, even if a person of arab descent tried to buy a gun from me, I'd ask the usual questions - and if they checked out, they'd own the gun.
If a person comes across to me as a hood, crazy, gangbanger, thief or terrorist, they're going to leave emptyhanded, at least from me.
Some of our more liberal posters on this board will yell "foul" and others would just sell to them. Those same thugs or terrorists could be waiting in the bushes when you get home, and get their money back plus more, and take your life in the process!
That has happened before gentlemen, wake up!
"If you can do it, it ain't braggin'".
JR Ewing - "Dallas"
Often the mind believes it is thinking, when it is only passing from one metaphor to the next.