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PA: Could we have another Ruby Ridge in PA?
Josey1
Member Posts: 9,598 ✭✭
Could a Ruby Ridge happen in our state?
Sit down, pour yourself a drink and get ready for a sobering story.
This nightmare started on June 5, 2003, when 80-year old Robert Floyd from Sinnamahoning killed an elk who was attacking the rare apple trees originally planted by his father. Floyd is not in the best shape, struggling in life to care for his terminally ill wife.
He summoned his good friends, Jim Pletcher, Art Gavlock and Adam Waltz, to his home to help deal with the Pennsylvania Game Commission when they arrived. All are members of the Citizens Against the Exploitation of Private Property Rights, a group at odds with the state's elk program. Floyd requested Waltz be his spokesman to the PGC.
WCO Clint Deniker and WCO Doty McDowell arrive shortly thereafter and insisted to speak to Floyd "in his house" about the incident. Waltz explained that Floyd and his wife are not in the best of health and terribly shaken. He further stated it was Floyd's desire that the PGC pick up the elk and leave as quickly as possible.
Standing over the elk, Pletcher suggested that they should photograph the scene before it was removed. Waltz walked back to the house for a camera with everyone close behind. Upon entering the house Deniker grabbedWaltz from the rear in a bear hug and violently shook him around like a rag doll. This was an assault and an act of unlawful entry into Floyd's home. Waltz immediately complained of severe neck pain.
Waltz later visited his doctor and was put in a neck brace. His medical problems from the incident continue to this day. He has hired an attorney and filed a complaint against Deniker.
You would think disciplinary action against Deniker would be appropriate, and this story would be over. Incredibly, it has just begun.
On August 7, 2003, 14 members of the CAEPPR met at Waltz's house. A PGC vehicle sat outside the house for six hours during the gathering. Little did they know WCO John Wasserman had taken a long ride to meet with District Justice John Maggs in Mill Hall to obtain search warrants.
When the meeting concluded, some group members were followed. Pletcher was pulled over, and his vehicle, including his dirty laundry, was searched. The PGC was looking for Floyd's .30-06 which he used to kill the elk. Gavlock and Floyd's homes were searched for this firearm. Floyd no longer owns the rifle, and the PGC believes either Pletcher or Gavlock has it.
Why does the PGC want the rifle? The PGC has filed charges against Floyd for killing an elk in violation of Title 34. I have a copy of Title 34, and it is perfectly legal for a landowner to protect his property against wildlife damage. (Last year 17 elk were killed for crop damage). Floyd had previously signed a sworn statement that he indeed killed the elk. Seeking the rifle was a bogus excuse. (The PGC must believe the turnip truck recently passed through the area.)
Ultimately, five WCOs and three State Police officers were involved in this shakedown, and I do mean shakedown. The officers wore bulletproof vests, and at one point had their hands on their weapons. This was not a pleasant situation and another clear example of an agency gone rogue.
While the PGC was shaking down Gavlock and his house, Deniker made his second mistake in this debacle. Deniker said, "the orders for this investigation came from high up." Interesting. How high? Does that statement implicate Mike Dubiak, chief of PGC Law Enforcement, or executive director Vern Ross, or did DCNR demand the PGC harass these people who have been critical of the elk-biodiversity program?
Obviously, these law-abiding citizens have gone to their attorneys and will start litigation charging civil rights violations. I'm told the search warrants obtained to conduct this shakedown are very suspect. Maggs will also be investigated for his role. Waltz has no intention of dropping his charges against Deniker.
This is an incredible story of abuse of power by the PGC, applying intimidation tactics of yesteryear. We are all too smart for this nonsense.
Our legislators need to conduct a hearing and fully investigate this matter. All should be held accountable for their behavior and terminated immediately. Holding people accountable for their actions is the only way to rid the agencies of their bad apples.
In the interim, our law-abiding citizens of northcentral Pennsylvania are deeply concerned that the PGC is not finished with them. They are wondering if the next PGC move will be to surround their homes, armed with M-16s and sniper rifles.
Do we have an agency (the PGC and/or DCNR) so intoxicated with power and so determined to impose its will and agenda that the civil liberties of our citizens are no longer relevant?
Are we on the brink of another Ruby Ridge?
Jim Slinsky is the host and producer of the "Sportsman's Connection," a statewide, syndicated, outdoor-talk radio program broadcast on WBCB-1490-AM Saturday morning at 6 a.m. You can contact him through his website at www.outdoortalknetwork.com
http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/229-08172003-143159.html
"If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878<P>
Sit down, pour yourself a drink and get ready for a sobering story.
This nightmare started on June 5, 2003, when 80-year old Robert Floyd from Sinnamahoning killed an elk who was attacking the rare apple trees originally planted by his father. Floyd is not in the best shape, struggling in life to care for his terminally ill wife.
He summoned his good friends, Jim Pletcher, Art Gavlock and Adam Waltz, to his home to help deal with the Pennsylvania Game Commission when they arrived. All are members of the Citizens Against the Exploitation of Private Property Rights, a group at odds with the state's elk program. Floyd requested Waltz be his spokesman to the PGC.
WCO Clint Deniker and WCO Doty McDowell arrive shortly thereafter and insisted to speak to Floyd "in his house" about the incident. Waltz explained that Floyd and his wife are not in the best of health and terribly shaken. He further stated it was Floyd's desire that the PGC pick up the elk and leave as quickly as possible.
Standing over the elk, Pletcher suggested that they should photograph the scene before it was removed. Waltz walked back to the house for a camera with everyone close behind. Upon entering the house Deniker grabbedWaltz from the rear in a bear hug and violently shook him around like a rag doll. This was an assault and an act of unlawful entry into Floyd's home. Waltz immediately complained of severe neck pain.
Waltz later visited his doctor and was put in a neck brace. His medical problems from the incident continue to this day. He has hired an attorney and filed a complaint against Deniker.
You would think disciplinary action against Deniker would be appropriate, and this story would be over. Incredibly, it has just begun.
On August 7, 2003, 14 members of the CAEPPR met at Waltz's house. A PGC vehicle sat outside the house for six hours during the gathering. Little did they know WCO John Wasserman had taken a long ride to meet with District Justice John Maggs in Mill Hall to obtain search warrants.
When the meeting concluded, some group members were followed. Pletcher was pulled over, and his vehicle, including his dirty laundry, was searched. The PGC was looking for Floyd's .30-06 which he used to kill the elk. Gavlock and Floyd's homes were searched for this firearm. Floyd no longer owns the rifle, and the PGC believes either Pletcher or Gavlock has it.
Why does the PGC want the rifle? The PGC has filed charges against Floyd for killing an elk in violation of Title 34. I have a copy of Title 34, and it is perfectly legal for a landowner to protect his property against wildlife damage. (Last year 17 elk were killed for crop damage). Floyd had previously signed a sworn statement that he indeed killed the elk. Seeking the rifle was a bogus excuse. (The PGC must believe the turnip truck recently passed through the area.)
Ultimately, five WCOs and three State Police officers were involved in this shakedown, and I do mean shakedown. The officers wore bulletproof vests, and at one point had their hands on their weapons. This was not a pleasant situation and another clear example of an agency gone rogue.
While the PGC was shaking down Gavlock and his house, Deniker made his second mistake in this debacle. Deniker said, "the orders for this investigation came from high up." Interesting. How high? Does that statement implicate Mike Dubiak, chief of PGC Law Enforcement, or executive director Vern Ross, or did DCNR demand the PGC harass these people who have been critical of the elk-biodiversity program?
Obviously, these law-abiding citizens have gone to their attorneys and will start litigation charging civil rights violations. I'm told the search warrants obtained to conduct this shakedown are very suspect. Maggs will also be investigated for his role. Waltz has no intention of dropping his charges against Deniker.
This is an incredible story of abuse of power by the PGC, applying intimidation tactics of yesteryear. We are all too smart for this nonsense.
Our legislators need to conduct a hearing and fully investigate this matter. All should be held accountable for their behavior and terminated immediately. Holding people accountable for their actions is the only way to rid the agencies of their bad apples.
In the interim, our law-abiding citizens of northcentral Pennsylvania are deeply concerned that the PGC is not finished with them. They are wondering if the next PGC move will be to surround their homes, armed with M-16s and sniper rifles.
Do we have an agency (the PGC and/or DCNR) so intoxicated with power and so determined to impose its will and agenda that the civil liberties of our citizens are no longer relevant?
Are we on the brink of another Ruby Ridge?
Jim Slinsky is the host and producer of the "Sportsman's Connection," a statewide, syndicated, outdoor-talk radio program broadcast on WBCB-1490-AM Saturday morning at 6 a.m. You can contact him through his website at www.outdoortalknetwork.com
http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/229-08172003-143159.html
"If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878<P>
Comments
To Ride, shoot straight,and speak the truth
This was the Ancient law of Youth
Old times are past, old times are done:
But the Law runs true, O little son!
Good article: I live about an hour and a half away from there and I hadn't heard of this. Blackie and I used to camp down there all the time at the Stevenson Dam, it's very beautiful country down there!
Also, some great trout fishing.
"Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, not liberty to purchase power."
Benjamin Franklin, 1785
"Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, not liberty to purchase power."
Benjamin Franklin, 1785
Giving any physical contact to a 80 year old man for no reason is not acceptable. A 80 year old man shot an animal destroying his crop on his property- no crime.
I will be writing and calling the WCO's. The internet is a powerful tool.
I emailed the Governor, State Attorney General, and Game Commission to validate the story and get their opinions. Any responses will be posted here.
"He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one."
- Jesus Christ in Luke 22:36
My border collie is smarter than your honor student.
can I suggest contacting
http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/contact.asp
and inform them that Josey1, GunBroker Discussion Board Member,
Jim Slinsky the host and producer of the "Sportsman's Connection," a statewide, syndicated, outdoor-talk radio program broadcast on WBCB-1490-AM Saturday morning at 6 a.m. are spreading this story, and (whoever is interested) would like a follow up. [}:)]
"He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one."
- Jesus Christ in Luke 22:36
When approached by a PGC officer in the woods have your wallet ready.
Pack slow, fall stable, pull high, hit dead center.<BR>
To Ride, shoot straight,and speak the truth
This was the Ancient law of Youth
Old times are past, old times are done:
But the Law runs true, O little son!
When a story leads like Slinsky's..."Are we on the brink of another Ruby Ridge?", I have doubts right up front.(I should stress I do not know the author).
Same with all the news stories, basketball players, pregnant wives murdered, on and on. Seems we all want to second guess the others. Why wait to find out all the story, we got a rope, let's hang the sucker!
Oh well, I'm tired and hot, think I'll have a MGD. Maybe a couple, then I won't care.[^]
If anyone wants any info about the denikers, Email me.
My border collie is smarter than your honor student.
Still no reponse from the PA Game Commission, Attorney General, and Governor Rendell.
"He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one."
- Jesus Christ in Luke 22:36
Dipshiz I am trying to verify the story. I didn't post it.
"He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one."
- Jesus Christ in Luke 22:36
Pa.
To Ride, shoot straight,and speak the truth
This was the Ancient law of Youth
Old times are past, old times are done:
But the Law runs true, O little son!
I didn't know there were elk in PA.
81st FA BN WWII...Thanks Dad
U!S!A! ALL THE WAY!!
I didn't know there were elk in PA.
Yes there are-in the North Central part of the state-I think estimates have the Elk herd at about a thousand animals. Two years ago the game commision had the first legal elk hunt in a long time. Gave out I think twenty tags.
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once"
-David Hume
Branch-antlered Bulls 99 106
Spike Bulls 52 56
Cows 288 311
Calves 120 135
Unknown 7 14
Total Elk in Pennsylvania 566 622
To Ride, shoot straight,and speak the truth
This was the Ancient law of Youth
Old times are past, old times are done:
But the Law runs true, O little son!
Personally I would like to camp out on his lawn fully armed.
If I'm going to die , I want to die for a cause I believe in.
NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
Lord Lowrider the LoquaciousMember:Secret Select Society of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets She was only a fisherman's daughter,But when she saw my rod she reeled.
IF YOU DON'T LIKE MY RIGHTS - GET OUT OF MY COUNTRY (this includes politicians)
Deniker and McDowell do deserve our support in calmly attempting to deal with an unruly mob preventing them from going about their legal business. Could you imagine how this forum would react if a bunch of liberals and PETA's ran through the forest on opening day screaming, yelling, sounding airhorns, and making all sorts of racket to prevent filthy hunters from hurting their goodfriend Mr Huge Rack Whitetail who is very old and "not in the best of shape and terribly shaken" by the the noise and racket of all those guns. Would we rally around these truly concerned American citizens or would we consider them kooks who need to go somewhere and get some help? It really does depend on whose ox is gored. Beach
I do not see this as a proper comparison. In the state of Pennsylvania, it is illegal to harass hunters in the field, and these actions that are mentioned qualify as hunter harassment. There are laws that deal with this type of harassment.
On the other hand, we have laws which say it is legal to kill animals which are damaging crops. The victim swore out a statement that he killed the elk because of crop damage. The PGC wants to press charges on this man, even though he swore out a statemtn that he killed the elk, reported the elk kill to the comission, allowed them onto his property to remove the elk, even allowed them into his home, which in my opinion, was a bad mistake, because this was unecessary. And now they want the rifle-what for? Evidence against the alleged criminal-It becomes very obvious that he is no longer a victim of elk damage, but a suspect of the crime of unlawfully killing game. And at that point, it makes no sense for the suspect to surrender his firearm willingly, because a suspect has a right not to incriminate himself. Do they have a warrant? So what if they do. They cant find the rifle, and the alleged elk poacher is under no obligation to help the game commission with their case against him. "where is the rifle?" "I have a right to remain silent." Furthermore, by the game commissions own statistics, 90% of game law violations THAT ARE CONTESTED, wind up getting thrown out of court because of lack of evidence, or IMPROPERLY SEIZED EVIDENCE.
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once"
-David Hume
I did note that the shaky old 80 year old elk killer had a steady enough aim to bag the elk. Beach
HEHEHE. I didnt. I kind of winced when I read about the neckbrace. Images of the type who scream "WHIPLASH" came to mind on reading that tidbit. Nothing more sypathetic than an 80 year old, whiplashed, brace wearing Elk killer.
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once"
-David Hume
Years ago my dad who was upon a hill huntin watched a game warden take the keys out his car and open the trunk of his car. My dad came off the hill boiling mad and told the warden that he came close to shooting him for opening the trunk of his car.
"Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, not liberty to purchase power."
Benjamin Franklin, 1785
A friend of mine had the wardens pay his house a visit, on suspicion of poaching. They wanted to come in, he said no. THey insisted that he had to let them in-he refused. One warden stayed behind, the other warden went and got a warrant. When he showed up with a warrant, my friend let them in. My friend was not poaching.Most people would have certainly let the wardens in, because most think they are "allowed" to do whatever they want-the warden even said so to my friend-but he wouldnt let them in, and the wardens had no choice but to get a warrant.
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once"
-David Hume
[/quote]
Salzo, good for your friend. More people should stand up to those that abuse their position.
I remember a man in a local bar telling someone that he ate some deer meat just before deer season which was against the law in having it after a certain date.. The game wardens were told and went to the man's house with a warrant and found deer meat in his freezer. They were going to arrest him until the man presented some evidence that he had taken a hunting trip out west recently and had shot the deer out there. The game wardens had egg on their face on this one.
"Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, not liberty to purchase power."
Benjamin Franklin, 1785
Inspection:
A game warden may search a game bag, vehicle, or other receptacle if the game warden has reason to believe that the game bag, vehicle, vessel, or other receptacle contains a wildlife resource that has been unlawfully killed or taken.
In our state, you do not argue with a warden. Almost all are super nice, have had a couple that pushed the rules and have been relocated to another part of the state.
Politicians are like diapers, every so often you need to change them, for obvious reasons.
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once"
-David Hume
I wish they would do that again, makes it easier to find the deer[}:)]
Politicians are like diapers, every so often you need to change them, for obvious reasons.
Claim: In an effort to protect the deer population, PETA has taken to dressing deer in orange hunters' vests. Consequently, local hunters are having a very easy time drawing a bead on these animals and downing them. A sporting goods store offers rewards for the returned vests and a buy-in competition the hunters can participate in.
Status: False.
Example: [Collected on the Internet, 2002]
If you are familiar with PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals), then you are aware of the fact they will do almost anything to protect animals. This year's efforts to save Ohio's deer from the annual statewide gun season has backfired. For safety's sake, hunters in Ohio are required by law to display at least 400 square inches of hunter's blaze orange on their person when in the woods.
Capitalizing on the fact that hunters do not usually shoot orange, PETA recently bulk purchased blaze orange vests and have been affixing them to live-trapped deer in Youngstown suburbs. According to PETA spokesperson Katie Reese, a total of 405 vests were successfully put into circulation prior to this week, with additional specimens still being caught and vested.
Youngtown entrepreneur Guy Lockey, of Guy's Outdoors has spit in the face of PETA by offering rewards for the returned vests this week. Hunters who can successfully bag a vested deer can pay $5 for random and biggest animal awards.
As of today, 308 of the vests had already been recorded as bagged with most of the hunters registering for Mr. Lockey's drawing. "It's so easy, you can see them coming a mile away" said one first year hunter after checking in his first spike buck. ODNR officials are worried that the poorly thought out plan by PETA might get somebody shot instead of saving the deer. "Hunters have turned their plan upside down, we're just hoping that nobody gets hurt and are hoping that none of the vested animals get tangled in brush" said an unnamed ODNR official. "PETA has really outdone itself this time."
Ohio's statewide gun season is open to shotguns only and is scheduled to close on Saturday.
Origins: Although
the above purports to be an Associated Press wire service article, it's not -- searches of wire service archives fail to turn it up.
Although the piece began circulating on the Internet in January 2002, it's a hoax all the way down. Though People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) has certainly engaged in many loopy schemes over the course of its history, decking out deer in orange hunting vests hasn't been any of them. There are no orange-vested deer, thus there are no hunters collecting a bounty on their apparel. More importantly, there is no chance of some trigger-happy yahoo's mistaking another hunter -- one clad in an orange vest -- for a similarly attired deer, resulting in his bagging a Buck (or a Jim or a John) instead of a buck.
Yet what would a hoax be without someone's falling for it? On January 7 the position of "goat" was filled by Brit Hume of Fox News:
It's deer season out in Ohio, and People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals is trying to protect the animals by adorning them with bright orange vests of the kind that hunters use to alert each other not to shoot. PETA boasted it has succeeded in dressing more than 400 deer in the vests, but Guy Lockey, owner of a sporting goods store in Youngstown, countered by offering a reward to hunters who could bag vested deer and bring home the vests. So far, says Lockey, he's got more than 300 of the vests. State officials are said to be worried that the whole vest competition could get someone shot.
During the next evening's broadcast, Mr. Hume set the record straight:
And finally, we've picked up on a wire item last time that said that PETA had outfitted 400 deer out in Ohio with those bright orange vests that hunters used to alert each other not to shoot. The story went on to say that a sporting goods store had tried to thwart PETA by paying a bounty for the vests taken from to the reindeer -- dead deer. It turned out that the item was not only not new, it wasn't true, either. It was a hoax and we fell for it. Sorry about that.
PETA has also issued a press release denying this rumor on their web site.
Barbara "PETA panned" Mikkelson
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878<P>
They say the Article written by Mr. Jim Slinsky is a one sided account of the situtation, is routine writing for Mr. Slinsky, and is to be expected from him.
The whole situtation is under investigation by the Cameron County district Attorney, the Pennsylvania State Police, and the Game Commission.
They also enclosed a copy of the Renovo Record (page 4, august 27,2003) which tries to twist the situtation around saying the man attacked was a former PIAA wrestling champion and pretty much is faking the * damage from being tackled by Game Wardens at his young age of 60 something I think it was.
They say it is illegal to shoot a Elk on non Commercial property and citizens do not have the right to shoot animals for crop damage on private property....
WTF is Pennsylvania coming to? Those city boys are coming too far out of the burbs.
Jerry Feaser is the Press Secretary for the Game Commission that replid.
"He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one."
- Jesus Christ in Luke 22:36
"He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one."
- Jesus Christ in Luke 22:36
To Ride, shoot straight,and speak the truth
This was the Ancient law of Youth
Old times are past, old times are done:
But the Law runs true, O little son!