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Thoughts needed on revolvers:

MRBEANMRBEAN Member Posts: 562 ✭✭✭
edited May 2005 in General Discussion
I went to Gibralter gun show today, and talked at length with one guy in particular. He said his number one seller, and his 95% of the time carry is S&W 642 in the .38spl(didn't say if it comes in anything else). He happened to be sold out, but I went to another booth and held it, just to get an idea what it was all about(don't remember holding that style revolver before). The thing that sruck me the most was the weight of course. However, having not shot one yet, and remembering him and others there say kel-tech's .380 recoiled too much(even lighter than 642), I'm hesitant to look into it more seriously. Does THAT .380, or any, recoil more than THAT .38spl? A side note, I also checked out walther ppk .380. Felt a little on the heavy side(or very solid), but fit in my hand VERY nicely as well. Another question: Are there any guns that vary in recoil, with the same caliber, from others? I.E, kel-tech(10oz loaded), I'd imagine, would recoil much worse than say firestorm .380(about 24oz empty).

bean.gifTo the rich, everything is a neccessity. To the poor, everything is a luxury

Comments

  • bpostbpost Member Posts: 32,204 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Where to start; recoil is a function of newtons law, perception of recoil is personal. Everything is a trade off, so buy the gun that is well made, light as you deem necessary and the one you have absolute confidence in. Then become familuar with it shoot it a lot and know that you are going to hit what you are hoping to hit.
  • Aspen79seAspen79se Member Posts: 4,707
    edited November -1
    Is the S&W 642 the scandium frame version? If so; I think Mateo has one. Maybe he'll see this and weigh in on it.



    Dance Hippo. Dance.
    hippohula.gif
  • MRBEANMRBEAN Member Posts: 562 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Aspen, no it's aluminum alloy and only 15oz empty.

    bean.gifTo the rich, everything is a neccessity. To the poor, everything is a luxury
  • bobskibobski Member Posts: 17,868 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    your logic is like trying to paddle upstream without a paddle.
    try this...ask yourself these questions in this order:
    1. what do i want to shoot?
    2. how many shots can i take to hit it?
    3. will my life depend on hitting the target?
    4. how often will i be shooting?
    5. how much do i want to spend on ammo?
    6. how much can i spend on the gun?
    7. am i the only one shooting it in the family?

    answer those questions and your choice of gun and recoil may change dramatically.
    fyi.......standard 38 spl bullets have to be the most pleasent rounds to fire thru a 4" or 6" revolver bbl, bar none. rule of thumb, heavier the gun, longer the bbl, the less the recoil. grip choice is extremley important as well.[;)]
    Retired Naval Aviation
    Former Member U.S. Navy Shooting Team
    Former NSSA All American
    Navy Distinguished Pistol Shot
    MO, CT, VA.
  • MRBEANMRBEAN Member Posts: 562 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Ok I'll try
    1.The person trying to end my life/or just take my belongings
    2.I was recently told to shoot till he/she/they hit the ground
    3.Aside from practice, * yes
    4.Aside from practice, hopefully never, duh
    5.My life's worth more than $1.00/shot (or whatever .357 is) if that helps
    6.I'd like to keep it about$500 or less, but I can save a while
    7.Aside from hanging out at the range, absolutely YES
    Thanks but I've been over those already, got anymore? BTW I'd never carry/or even shoot a 4-6" bbl wheel gun. The only one I've considered so far is less than 2"(S&W642)

    bean.gifTo the rich, everything is a neccessity. To the poor, everything is a luxury
  • 1911a1-fan1911a1-fan Member Posts: 51,193 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    i have a 640 centennial in .357, but is steel , 23 oz's ,I like it just the way it is, no hammer to snag, can fire from inside a coat pocket if need be

    the price listed is much higher than can be had for ,I got mine new for 425.00
    http://www.firearms.smith-wesson.com/store/index.php3?cat=293555&item=831441&sw_activeTab=1

    I have seen a few kel-tecs at the range, they appear to have problems after around a thousand rounds
  • remington nutremington nut Member Posts: 961 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    when it comes to recoil and a life or death situation, unless you have a snub nose hand cannon i wouldnt think reoil would be much of a factor once the adrenaline kicks in and it's you or him, as long as the first shot counts follow up shots shouldnt be necessary as well, once again recoil shouldnt be a factor, in a life or death situation i hope you would intend on throwing the kel tech in stead of firing it... or at least after the first shot providing you have already chambered a round prior to having to use it.. i wouldnt bet my life on a kel tech. for carry/home defense a .357 would be a good place to start and possible all you need in a wheel gun, as far as semi auto goes the options are endless... some will say a 9mm will suffice others will argue if you dont have a 50ae in your hands you're not gonna get the job done... personally i have a 9mm with hydroshocks and black talons in 2 seperate mags black talons in the gun hydroshocks in the holster, as well as a 45acp 1911 double stack.... just my thoughts
  • Hang-Fire1Hang-Fire1 Member Posts: 137 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I was looking at the S&W 686 .357mag for hunting but have been thinking the S&W 629 .44mag is better for that application. Home defense 1911 .45 is what I count on.
  • bobskibobski Member Posts: 17,868 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    simply put, your confusing recoil issues with true needs. all youre looking for is a defense gun. and as the previous poster mentioned, when youre threatened with death, recoil is not a factor. so any gun will do as long as it works. your post suggests youre loking for a low recoil gun based on design. if its for defense, who cares how much it recoils or hurts? you want dependablity. so my stated rule of thumb still applies, the heavier the gun,the less the recoil. grips play an important role in choices. 380's are for semi autos. 380s arent as reliable as a 38spl. any wheel gun shorter than 4" built in a lightweight configuration is going to kick like a mule. but...who cares? its gonna work every time.
    semi auto rounds must be able to cycle the slide. recoil is an important part of function.
    design differs from gun to gun. so its logical to assume that different guns will recoil differently.
    the ONLY way to choose a gun is to FIRE NUMEROUS GUNS and find one you can tolerate and control.
    in your case....FUNCTION AND RELIABLITY should be the number one goal of the testing process. pretty guns dont stop perps. cheap ammo isnt reliable. and since recoil wont be a problem if your drenilan(sp) is pumping, who cares if it hurts? see my point?
    and since you mentioned you havent shot these guns yet, go get whacked a couple times from lightweight guns and then switch to heavier guns to feel the difference. then keep trying guns with different ammo combos until you get one you like and stick with it. again, you may be surprised what you end up with. its why so many different guns exist. no two people are the same. and it may take time to find that sweet combo that will stick for life. getting the right combo is like eating 28 flavors of ice cream. after its all done its most likely gonna be vanilla or chocolate. mark my words.

    former air operations officer SEAL Delivery Vehicle Team 2. former navy skeet team, former navy rifle/pistol team member. co-owner skeetmaster tubes inc.. owner/operator professional shooting instruction. NRA certified instructor.
    Retired Naval Aviation
    Former Member U.S. Navy Shooting Team
    Former NSSA All American
    Navy Distinguished Pistol Shot
    MO, CT, VA.
  • wizard78wizard78 Member Posts: 3,144
    edited November -1
    I carry a variety of pistols. Most times, I have a Berreta Tomcat on me. When the mood strikes me, I carry anything from a colt 45 acp, Smith 645, smith 669, Smith 60, Glock 26 or 23 and on rare occasion, Berreta 84w. I've even carried a AMT backup in 45 acp. The ONLY time I concern myself with recoil is with my range guns. If I go to the range and shoot a couple hundred rounds, the recoil of a 357 or 44mag, can get to me. When i practice combat shooting with my carry gun, I shoot about a box at a time and that is very rarely enough to feel recoil. most of my combat shooting is practicing my follow up shots. My first round is usually double action and am never sure if I'll be accurate. Except for the Glocks, it's the follow up shots that I want to be accurate. this is one reason I don't carry DAO guns. The long trigger pull takes a LOT of practice to master. Get the gun that is most comfortable for you to shoot. The rest will come easy.
  • bobskibobski Member Posts: 17,868 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    guns must fit your hand. if you have a small hand, you have to get a frame fit to your hand. i have large hands. this is my defense gun. it will kill the perps in my house if that day ever comes. its a 357 mk2 high standard. i have a size 14 glove. so does my wife(ok,10.) but its a large frame gun. i can shoot it all day in 38spl and even 357 with only a 3" bbl and it doesnt hurt. why? its a heavy gun with huge wood grips designed to roll the gun in my hands. recoil is misdirected out of my palm into void. so..i have a reliable gun, reliable ammo, and no worries to address. and for 195.00, how can you go wrong? i never dreamed my perfect gun would be a 35 year old gun. but there it is. no gimmicks, no advertising did it. the plain old test drive did.

    bedsidegun.jpg

    former air operations officer SEAL Delivery Vehicle Team 2. former navy skeet team, former navy rifle/pistol team member. co-owner skeetmaster tubes inc.. owner/operator professional shooting instruction. NRA certified instructor.
    Retired Naval Aviation
    Former Member U.S. Navy Shooting Team
    Former NSSA All American
    Navy Distinguished Pistol Shot
    MO, CT, VA.
  • hughbetchahughbetcha Member Posts: 7,799 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    When you are talking about .380s and .38 special, recoil really isn't a factor. I like wheelguns cause they are reliable, quick to bring into action and can use a variety of loads and bullet types with equal reliability. .39 special wins hands down over .380 if you ask me. .38 special plus P round are avaialbel in all kinds of hollow point and highly frangible types that will deliver maximum energy to target. The weight of the revolver is not that important as far as comfort in carry, its more an issue with lots of shooting, the lightweight guns tend to shake loose over a few thousand rounds. One of my favorite carry guns is my colt Agent with alloy frame.
  • MRBEANMRBEAN Member Posts: 562 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I think I see your points about recoil. However, if something DOES kick like a mule, won't that severely affect your follow ups like wizard is concerned with? It just doesn't make sense to me. Addrenalin or not, I doubt people(or at least myself) can fire 5 or 6 shots of .357 as fast OR accurately as the same number in say .380. When I tried the .380 then the .40S&W(same gun makers BTW), I could see an immediate difference in my accuracy. Mind you, that's after a quick lesson on proper hand-firing positioning. To my logic, without constant USE(not just practice), it only goes down hill from there. Do any of you shoot say a .357 Smith wheel as accurately as...a .380 Walther semi-auto?

    bean.gifTo the rich, everything is a neccessity. To the poor, everything is a luxury
  • bobskibobski Member Posts: 17,868 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    most gunfights are under 15 feet. heck, youll be shaking so bad you wont be able to aim. the gun pictured will put 6 357 rounds in the same hole at 15 yds. i shoot 50 357 as warm up...then pull out the 50ae. when i go back to 357, it appears as a cap gun in comparison. when i go back to surplus 38 spl...its like shooting an empty gun.

    former air operations officer SEAL Delivery Vehicle Team 2. former navy skeet team, former navy rifle/pistol team member. co-owner skeetmaster tubes inc.. owner/operator professional shooting instruction. NRA certified instructor.
    Retired Naval Aviation
    Former Member U.S. Navy Shooting Team
    Former NSSA All American
    Navy Distinguished Pistol Shot
    MO, CT, VA.
  • MRBEANMRBEAN Member Posts: 562 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    15 YARDS???!!! At more than twice the "defence distance"(or whatever it's called), I'm assuming you shoot that in competition. BTW, WTH is 50ae por favor?

    bean.gifTo the rich, everything is a neccessity. To the poor, everything is a luxury
  • select-fireselect-fire Member Posts: 69,482 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Mr.bean, get the gun that feels most comfortable to you and can be shot accuractly. Recoil is controllable in almost any revolver or auto. Just remember to get the gun that YOU can shoot.
  • grdad45grdad45 Member Posts: 5,025 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I sometimes carry a 2 1/2" 44 spl revolver. I practice with it and, sure I feel the recoil. But I figure if I have to use it in an emergency, recoil will be the LAST thing on my mind! Hope I never find out.

    F&AM, NRA Life (25 yrs)
    "The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion."
    Edmund Burke (1729-97)
  • Hang-Fire1Hang-Fire1 Member Posts: 137 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    My girlfriend has a Colt .357mag with a 2" barrel, kicks like a mule but in a life and death situation she could use it with no problems!

    belleslogosm.jpg
  • bobskibobski Member Posts: 17,868 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    15yds is the play distance. 25yds is the 'win dinner' or 'betcha cant do this with one hand distance.' its all in the trigger squeeze, breathe control, & sight alignment. caliber does mean squat.[:D]
    50ae..50cal pistol round. i/e: desert eagle 50ae.

    former air operations officer SEAL Delivery Vehicle Team 2. former navy skeet team, former navy rifle/pistol team member. co-owner skeetmaster tubes inc.. owner/operator professional shooting instruction. NRA certified instructor.
    Retired Naval Aviation
    Former Member U.S. Navy Shooting Team
    Former NSSA All American
    Navy Distinguished Pistol Shot
    MO, CT, VA.
  • mateomasfeomateomasfeo Member Posts: 27,143
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Aspen79se
    Is the S&W 642 the scandium frame version? If so; I think Mateo has one. Maybe he'll see this and weigh in on it.



    Mine is a 340pd. (.357/38) Very little. Very light. I love it.

    If recoil is an issue for you, it might not be your best choice, although with .38 instead of .357, it's not bad.



    oswald.jpg

    Mateomasfeo

    "I am what I am!" - Popeye
  • MRBEANMRBEAN Member Posts: 562 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Mateo, how long is the barrel? I'm too lazy to hunt for it on their site. My dad, before I was born, had a ruger .357/.38spl with like a 7"barrel. PLUS, he had an additional cylinder for 9mm that came with it. Just to give you an idea how long ago, he paid about $125 after tax for all of it WITH a leather holster and two boxes of ammo! Dumbazz traded it and some .22lr for a 15' aluminum canoe that's been used maybe thrice in my life at the most. Last time, BTW, was by my sister's ex-boyfriend's parents. Trust me, I've yelled at him!

    bean.gifTo the rich, everything is a neccessity. To the poor, everything is a luxury
  • Shadow62Shadow62 Member Posts: 828 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Mr Bean,
    as everyone has said get the gun that fits your hand.
    i like a revolver for the weight and balance.
    i WANT a ruger .30 cal carbine.
    its big, loud and shoots fast.
    i have had a .38 spl. snub nose
    and it was NOT accurate at all.
    my Dad has a ruger Blackhawk .357 mag
    and i can/have unscrewed the cap off
    an anti-freeze jug twice with it at
    40 to 50 feet. one handed.
    it is accurate and powerful.

    i personaly would not consider a .380
    because it is 1/2 the power of a 9mm.
    i used to carry a norinco 9mm and i liked it
    alot it did not weigh much it did not have much
    recoil either.
    i am not saying go out and get a Norinco
    most people don't like them they think
    the Norinco is a cheep peice of junk
    i got mine for $150.00.

    what i am saying is just because you have a
    budgit of $$$.$$ does not mean that you will
    hit your target.
    practice makes perfect
    in whatever calibre you choose

    Shadow62
  • ghotie_thumperghotie_thumper Member Posts: 1,561 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Mister Bean, Did you relate as to where you would be potentially using this hand cannon? I missed that part. Sounded like in defense of life/property. If concealablity isn't an issue grab a sig p220 or a [email protected] 586 or a 686. The p220 with 45's and the [email protected] with 357 mag. Either one is controllable for follow up shots and whatever you hit is gonna get the sledge hammer. A 380, better than nothing, but there are 9mms out there with more smack and not much if any bigger. I hope you never have to use one either, no matter what you get, hit the range until it's second nature. Take a defensive shooting course as well. Some people might even recommend entering a competition shoot too just to get some practice under pressure, though nothing like a real shooting, still all you can do to improve your own skills will increas your survival rate when the chips are down. jmho

    Common Sense is an Uncommon Virtue.
  • mateomasfeomateomasfeo Member Posts: 27,143
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by MRBEAN
    Mateo, how long is the barrel? I'm too lazy to hunt for it on their site. My dad, before I was born, had a ruger .357/.38spl with like a 7"barrel. PLUS, he had an additional cylinder for 9mm that came with it. Just to give you an idea how long ago, he paid about $125 after tax for all of it WITH a leather holster and two boxes of ammo! Dumbazz traded it and some .22lr for a 15' aluminum canoe that's been used maybe thrice in my life at the most. Last time, BTW, was by my sister's ex-boyfriend's parents. Trust me, I've yelled at him!




    The barrel is 1 7/8". It is a little feller, designed for work that is close up and personal.

    SW%20340PD%20With%20Cleaning%20KitSM.JPG

    oswald.jpg

    Mateomasfeo

    "I am what I am!" - Popeye
  • drobsdrobs Member Posts: 22,226 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    You guys are going about this all wrong. You need to get a full or mid size full caliber gun and get used to carrying it in an in the waistbant holster. For back up or days where you forget or can't carry a full size gun you need to get yourself a snubby, 380, or pocket pistol and keep it in a pocket holster in your glove box.

    163050_thumb.jpg
    I bought a 637 Smith & Wesson like this one a few years back used for $325 at a local shop. I carried it in an Uncle Mikes pocket holster as a back up to my full size 1911 or Glock at the shop. I found that drawing from the pocket holster was quite easy as long as you put your thumb over the hammer.

    I have since passed it on to my partner Brad a year or 2 ago as a simple defense gun for his use till I could train him further. Brad now shoots a Springfield GI Milspec.

    Looking here on GB, 637's new, run $350 and under.
    http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=31609197

    Regards,
    gadsden.jpg
  • easygo6easygo6 Member Posts: 1,465 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have the 642 and the Scandium frame version (forget the model). These are EXCELLENT wheelguns for carry. Nice triggers, well aligned fixed sights, light-weight, and compact. You can and will carry it everywhere you are legally able to.

    It is that comfortable...as beantownshoota and 1911a1 have mentioned in their posts.

    SEMPER FI
  • BittersweatBittersweat Member Posts: 294 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hey Bean,
    I was just thinkin'. Maybe you should just start with a .22 cal revolver and learn to shoot it. I mean just shoot the heck out of it.
    A revolver is simple to use and straight foreward in it's operation. It's really a lotta fun and you might enjoy this sport. [:D]
  • MRBEANMRBEAN Member Posts: 562 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bitter, that came off to me as patronizing. However, I'm not offended(nor can I be) and it's actually a good idea. That's why I've already thought of it. Perhaps I've given the wrong impression somewhere. I'm only a beginner with hanguns and simply don't know much about them for lack of being around them. I am NOT, however, a green horn with long guns. I've grown up hunting and have shot a fairly wide range of calibers and nearly all gauges. To ALL of you, thanks, as always, for the input. I'm still chewing on the facts and you guys just shoveled in another mouth full. Yes I'm hungry![:D]

    bean.gifTo the rich, everything is a neccessity. To the poor, everything is a luxury
  • homer4homer4 Member Posts: 128 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bought my wife a 642 in stainless and pocket hammer, double action only. She handles the recoil easily and also I carry it many times when I go into Baltimore City. Neat little gun.

    I also carry at times my Charter Arms Bulldog in stainless with a three inch tube and pocket hammer with pachmyr grips loaded with 240 grain hollow points.

    "...Abby someone""Abby who"..."Abby Normal"
  • IAMACLONE_2IAMACLONE_2 Member Posts: 4,725
    edited November -1
    Yo Mr. Bean...how about something like this?

    32d.jpg

    Walte
  • FortWorthJakeFortWorthJake Member Posts: 29 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thanks for the peek at the ol HS there, Bobski. I had forgotten they made them. Thought I was looking at a Dan Wesson at first.

    Shame what happened to HS, I've despised Sears ever since.

    I envy your large hands. I personally have very stubby fingers but have always favored big bore, DA wheelguns, mostly S&W but some Colt and Rugers (the SS and GP100). Unforutnately, due to the way I have to grip, anything with much recoil quickly wears a blister on my thumb right at the web of my hand. But it's worth it!

    My fav is my 4" S&W M24 (44 spl) which I bought when the made their special run back in the 80s (also bought a 6 1/2" 624 which I traded later and WISH I had back!!!).

    I took it to a local gunsmith who rounded the butt and did a s-m-o-o-t-h action job without weaking any springs. I shot it for many years before a friend put a trigger gauge on it. The SA breaks at 1.8 lbs and has spoiled me for all other triggers.

    Wheelguns make great home defense/CCW guns. They are simplicity personified, which is what you want in a life-threatening situation. Plus, you can find them cheap. I was at one 2 years ago where a fellow had a table full of 3" Ruger GP100s he'd gotten from a police agency priced $189 apiece and in great condition. Told my auto-crazy friend who was shopping for a CHL pistol that there was what he needed, just drop it in a coat pocket. I did buy one myself and that's what sits next to my bed at night. Why, you may ask, if that M24 is so wonderful? Because if I ever have to shoot an invader with it, it's probably going to be lost or in police custody for a long time. Plus, I don't want the added liability of shooting someone with a gun that's had it's trigger modified, a TORT lawyer would have a field day with that one ("oh, so the gun you used to shoot my has a hair trigger?")
  • gulliblebuyergulliblebuyer Member Posts: 22 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Since you are looking for a personal defense weapon, There really is no contest. A revolver almost NEVER fails, and semi-autos not only fail to operate, they are complicated (Is there one in the chamber, is the safety on or off) and what counts is TIME. Since the average gun fight is over in less than 7 seconds, do you really want to be fooling around with clips and slides and safety catches??? The .380 has low recoil but very low stopping power. The .38+P fired from either a S&W 642 or the Scandium frame version is sufficient to put someone on the ground. The super light guns made by Taurus and S&W weigh less than the ammo, but as already pointed out, you won't feel recoil when the adrenaline is running. Most shooters interviewed later claim to have fired only one or two shots when in fact they emptied the gun.

    I would get a steel 5 shot revolver for practice and a super light to carry (that way they are identical in every respect except recoil). And yes, grips are critical also.

    Everyone should believe in something, I believe I'll have another beer.
  • easygo6easygo6 Member Posts: 1,465 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:What you REALLY want is the gun that you will ACTUALLY CARRY! It doesnt matter how accurate, reliable, etc if the gun you have is uncomfortable because its too heavy, or not easily concealable because it won't fit in your pocket when you need it to, you're going to leave it at home.

    All the rest are side issues! Practice, loads, grips, holsters, etc., etc., etc.



    SEMPER FI
  • NickCWinterNickCWinter Member Posts: 2,927
    edited November -1
    You have some great discussion on here, some excellent considerations and options. Today's carry for me is a Smith 637 SC, accurate and light in .38 SPL. Usually it, or a Smith aluminum frame Bodyguard revolver are backups to a Warthog or a Para Companion Carry, both in .45. But the 637 is a dream to carry and I know it'll do the job at 7-10 yds.
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