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LEO's what do you think?

96harley96harley Member Posts: 3,992 ✭✭
edited November 2003 in General Discussion
Yesterday a taxpayer complained about a fed agency going to his brother's house in turn out gear to serve a warrant. He asked if I was aware of it or knew it happened here in town? Of course I as caught off guard and told him I would find something out for him as I was totally in the dark. I called the local sheriff who knew about as much about it as I did, NOTHING.

I told this guy it was usually common courtesy to inform an agency in whose jurisdiction you were operating to alert them to potential problems.

All this was spelled out in detail in my initial report. Today I review my report and a supplement has been added regarding what happened. It seems two of our patrolman, one a prior drug interdiction officer, the other a member of our "ELITE SWAT TEAM"
documnented they were informed of the situation. One stated "SINCE IT WAS A FEDERAL AGENCY I SAW NOT NEED TO WORRY ABOUT JURSIDICTION."

He and I had a little chat. He now knows he is to follow chain of command, not when it benefits him, but all the time when an incident like this takes place. First reason: When a taxpayer asked me what's going on in the area he pays me to work in, I had better have an informed answer due department structure. Second: Any time any agency operates in the area this taxpayer pays me to work in and protect them in; it puts the neighborhood at rest if they see a local officer in uniform instead of storm troopers assaulting the neighborhood.

What do any of you think? I guess I'm ranting, I'll shut up.

"Save the Whalers, they need jobs too."


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    outdoortexasoutdoortexas Member Posts: 4,780
    edited November -1
    Not an LEO buddy, but you've got the right attitude from my humble point of view.
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    kriskris Member Posts: 973 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    we have the same situation when state or fed decides to do a drug bust..end up getting the info at the last second or not at all..i can understand some reasons for withholding from local with one neighboring dept...a rookie officer opened his mouth about a drug bust and named some of the feds attending and blew the cover on a undercover dea agent that lived in the area...guess you have to look at all angles...your not ranting...i dont like either not knowing what is goin on your own turf.

    it is good that we meet in the struggle of life or death.. shall be life!
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    Rafter-SRafter-S Member Posts: 2,173 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1

    You are exactly right in the way you see it. The extreme case of the feds out of control and not using local law enforcement was the Branch Dividians...and we all know what happened there.

    The local sheriff in that case was personally acquainted with Koresh and could have solved the whole thing with a telephone call. Koresh would have come in to his office or invited them all to come look around at Mount Carmel. But no! The fed storm troopers had to kick * to show the public how needed they were, and a bunch of folks died as a result. A perfect example of how not to do law enforcement.

    No, bud. You have it right. Keep the feds out of your business...which is your taxpayers.

    My humble opinion,

    P.S. I am not LEO but I could not resist commenting.
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    Colt SuperColt Super Member Posts: 31,007
    edited November -1
    All of what Rafter-S said.

    God Bless America and...
    NEVER Forget WACO
    NEVER, EVER Forget 911
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    Smoky14Smoky14 Member Posts: 531 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    To make a long story short, I was on the receiving end a visit by the BATFE. I had 6 of their fine agents pay me a visit over a piece of yellow paper. Two in trucks blocking my driveway and 4 at the door.
    The local sheriff, a passing acquaintance, later called me to appologize for having let them assult my home because he had not been notified they were coming. They came without paper so figured they didn't have to inform the local LEOs.
    I'm no longer a LEO, my boy is, and he thought it stank. He is a FED but with a different agency.
    These guys were dressed like bikers. I'm a biker but would not approach a man's home dressed like a hood and not expect to be viewed with caution.

    People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid.
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    NighthawkNighthawk Member Posts: 12,022 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    This could have been a disaster waiting to happen.When the Feds are working a case we on the State level are usually aware of it.When the warrant is served the Sheriff's Office almost always assist.In this case Im glad a neighbor or someone didnt call 911 and report a break and enter.If they had the Sheriff's Office was not aware of the raid and could have responded and their could have been a bad situation.If I was the Sheriff I would ask for more than an explanation.This was right out wrong!
    BTW even Bondsmen notify the Sheriffs Office before arresting a fugitive to prevent any misunderstanding.


    "Toujours Pret"
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    TxsTxs Member Posts: 18,801
    edited November -1
    It's more than a matter of courtesy for an outside agency to notify the locals when taking action in their jurisdiction. Legally speaking, it's not required but it's a bad idea to fail to notify the local LE agency for a couple of reasons.

    As a matter of procedure the feds will usually call them in at the last minute just to have their recognizable uniforms present. This way there's less chance of either innocent citizens or their target mistaking what's going on.

    Now consider what happens if you haven't notified the locals, it goes bad and you need assistance in a hurry. When the local agency shows up they won't know who or what's there. At best, your assistance is delayed by their trying to figure it all out before taking action. The other possibility is that they'll mistake the unknown LEO's for bad guys. For example, during the infamous Miami FBI shootout the local PD was called by citizens reporting a gunfight in the street. These citizens later said they had assumed it was a shootout between drug dealers. It's not widely known, but uniformed Miami PD officers arrived to assist during this prolonged gunfight and also assumed it was two groups of drug dealers having a dispute. A couple of the feds were wearing FBI marked raid jackets but the responding officers had no way of knowing if they were actually bad guys and were forced to just sit and watch it all play out.

    Be aware that if it's a federal agency who has rolled in to take action the local agency can't tell them how to handle the situation. However, unless there are compelling reasons to do otherwise it makes good tactical sense to notify them, brief them on what's about to take place and have their members present. Who knows, they might be able to just knock on the door and gain cooperation without a $h!tstorm.
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    Rebel_JamesRebel_James Member Posts: 4,746
    edited November -1
    THe Feds notified a couple of your officers. Those are the guys that messed up, not passing the information up to a supervisor.

    Elaborating a bit more on Txs's post about the Miami shootout. A LE training video was made about the incident. Also, one of the first "In the Line of Fire" tv movies was made about it. The tv movie was very accurate in depicting the shootout. The FBI knew the bank robbers were armed with automatic weapons. The FBI agents were armed with 38's, 357's, 9mm's, and 12 ga. shotguns. (An FBI rule at the time made them carry the shotguns in the car trunks.) The FBI agents were not wearing any tactical gear, even though they knew the bad guys were heavily armed, and had murdered at least 2 people in earlier incidents. When the lead FBI agents pulled alongside the bad guys' vehicle and ordered them to pull over, one of them put a mag in a Mini-14. THAT was enough, considering their past, to shoot them then. But they didn't, and most of us know what happened next. That incident caused me to do 2 things.
    1. The best shooter among the FBI agents lost his glasses in the car wreck, and was killed in the firefight because he couldn't see.
    1a. I now wear contact lenses.
    2. The FBI agents did not have a rifle with them.
    2a. I bought an AR-15 A2. I carry it, and enough ammo, that if a bad guy ever gets me, it won't be cause I'm outa bullets!

    "If they won't give us good terms, come back and we'll fight it out."
    -- Gen. James Longstreet
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    96harley96harley Member Posts: 3,992 ✭✭
    edited November -1 got it. That's the discussion we had in the squadroom. Why didn't you let myself of the chief know about this?
    Response: We told the dispatcher. I don't hold the dispatcher accountable as she was only told some federal agents would be here on business and the two officers were aware of it. It was as if they really didn't want to divulge any information other than the feds were here. Of course there would be no need to give her the details but what they should have done was told her to pass it on the chief or assistant chief and let them make a decision regarding the matter.
    The problem arises when a citizen asked what's going on and you have a blank look on your face without a plausable answer.

    "Save the Whalers, they need jobs too."
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    madmarc0madmarc0 Member Posts: 862 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Although it's been said, there are reasons why the feds do what they do, I'm not saying it's right or wrong, it's what they do.

    A lot has to do with the reason they notify at the last minute or not at all.
    They don't want the person they are going after notified. Someones brother/sister/aunt/uncle/high school friend on the force may want to help or tell them. Or even just one local PD officer telling their friends that they know what's going down.

    I dont agree or disagree with this, just telling you what I have heard by fed. agents at one time or another.

    Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my gun has!
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    TxsTxs Member Posts: 18,801
    edited November -1
    Reb and 96harley-I remember hearing from a relable source that the Feds did in fact have a couple of SMG's assigned to the rolling stakeout that day. When it went down the closest one was a couple of miles away where the agent was taking care of business in a gas station bathroom.

    Also, the involved agent's shotguns were being carried in the back seats of their cars that day, but no extra ammo was handy.
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    bigdaddyjuniorbigdaddyjunior Member Posts: 11,233
    edited November -1
    I think it is not altogether unlikely to have a homeowner defend his home against an invasion of armed ,shouting men. Around this part of the state the newest and most popular type of crime is the 'home invasion'. A bunch of thugs ,usually well armed , break down the door and tear the place apart looting and maiming the residents. I would probably empty the 45 and be halfway through the 8 rounds of buckshot in the 870 before I noticed they all carried issue guns etc.. if they came busting in my house unannounced. Having a uniformed local visible on the scene could avert disaster. I guess they take these things into consideration.

    Big Daddy my heros have always been cowboys,they still are it seems
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