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Ohio votes no to Intelligent Design
REBJr
Member Posts: 1,210 ✭✭✭✭✭
I personally believe its a giant step in the right direction. -Ralph
http://www.geotimes.org/dec02/WebExtra121802.html
Last week, the Ohio State Education Board unanimously voted to approve new state science standards that, for the first time in the state's history, include evolution. Intelligent Design creationism, which stresses the role of a creator in establishing order in the natural world, will not be a part of the standards. "The intent of this indicator does not mandate the teaching or testing of Intelligent Design," read the final version of the Ohio standards.
The Dec. 10 vote ended a raging debate since January of this year on whether or not to include Intelligent Design creationism in the high school life and earth science curriculum. The Ohio Citizens for Science formed to fight changes proposed by the Science Excellence of All Ohioans group, which advocated teaching what they called alternative theories on the origins of life, including Intelligent Design.
In response to the state board's vote, the Science Excellence of All Ohioans group says: "While commending the State Board for substantially implementing the teach-the-controversy proposal, we also note that the language in the evolutionary theory sections is still problematic in numerous places . The language calling for inclusion of evidence both for and against evolution could certainly be more specific. Also, we would prefer that more explicit protection be given to educators who choose to discuss alternatives to the theory of common descent."
While item number 23 in the standards does encourage teachers to discuss interpretations of the patterns and processes behind evolution, it does not contest whether evolution took place. In an open letter to the Ohio Citizens for Science, Eugenie Scott of the National Center for Science Education writes, "The Ohio standards give your teachers a great shield to stand behind when parents harass them about teaching evolution . and also a nice little cattle * for those teachers who are reluctant to teach the e-word."
In the demonstable absence of evolutionary perfection, if some calamity is not to occur, we shall have to learn to live with ourselves as we are. Fast. -Tattersall
http://www.geotimes.org/dec02/WebExtra121802.html
Last week, the Ohio State Education Board unanimously voted to approve new state science standards that, for the first time in the state's history, include evolution. Intelligent Design creationism, which stresses the role of a creator in establishing order in the natural world, will not be a part of the standards. "The intent of this indicator does not mandate the teaching or testing of Intelligent Design," read the final version of the Ohio standards.
The Dec. 10 vote ended a raging debate since January of this year on whether or not to include Intelligent Design creationism in the high school life and earth science curriculum. The Ohio Citizens for Science formed to fight changes proposed by the Science Excellence of All Ohioans group, which advocated teaching what they called alternative theories on the origins of life, including Intelligent Design.
In response to the state board's vote, the Science Excellence of All Ohioans group says: "While commending the State Board for substantially implementing the teach-the-controversy proposal, we also note that the language in the evolutionary theory sections is still problematic in numerous places . The language calling for inclusion of evidence both for and against evolution could certainly be more specific. Also, we would prefer that more explicit protection be given to educators who choose to discuss alternatives to the theory of common descent."
While item number 23 in the standards does encourage teachers to discuss interpretations of the patterns and processes behind evolution, it does not contest whether evolution took place. In an open letter to the Ohio Citizens for Science, Eugenie Scott of the National Center for Science Education writes, "The Ohio standards give your teachers a great shield to stand behind when parents harass them about teaching evolution . and also a nice little cattle * for those teachers who are reluctant to teach the e-word."
In the demonstable absence of evolutionary perfection, if some calamity is not to occur, we shall have to learn to live with ourselves as we are. Fast. -Tattersall
Comments
So are you saying that children should not be taught the moral guidelines as set forth in the bible????? What do you use as a basis to teach your children, or do you have any??
If you want your children to learn "moral guidelines" from the Bible, that's fine, but it is not the place of government schools to be teaching creationism/intelligent design as science, because creationism/intelligent design have no science to offer.
Jacqueline
www.gratuitouslylongdomainname.net
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants and the creed of slaves." -- William Pitt (1783)
The point of this post was showing Ohio as a state finally getting off their rears and passing good legislation lately. These include CCW, gay marriage ban, and integration of science into science classes.
As far as your statement, I personally believe that there are at least 2 different standards of processes that move a hypothesis to a theory and onward to a scientific fact.
My example is relativity. Einstein had only to prove his hypothethis using mathematical principals, he never had to actually produce a working model of any kind, or any hard evidence other than numbers that others could not prove nor disprove. Many anthropolgists produce hard evidence yearly of extinct organisms that possesed characteristics of being between the great apes, and man. Yet with all this hard evidence evolution is regarded as a theory like is relativity. It should actually be regarded as fact with all the real evidence. But people stuck in the dark ages, hung up on abstract feelings and faith have barred this from happening. Just because a person is unwilling to see the evidence in front of their face is no reason to hinder the persuit of pure science, reaserch for research's sake, with no motive to bring products to market.
Yes, I advocate the teaching of science in science classes in public institutions. If a group wishes not to see facts, they create a private school, they have the right to teach whatever they desire, no matter how outdated.
The article spoke about the requirement of Ohio schools to teach evolutionary theory. It made no mention of neither the teaching of values nor morality. How did you make this jump? Are you saying a person who chooses not to believe in a god or in intelligent design has no values, or morals? I personally think that anyone so dusional that they believe in a god, that they cannot prove actually exists, to have problems dealing with reality in the first place, so their view on morality is moot. I think that they've already proven they shirk from reality and thus, anything else they believe in is suspect, and contaminated.
Please reply, I'd like to know how you made this jump from teaching a theory, to teaching family values and morality. If you want your children taught about christian values, take them to sunday school. I think its sad that you as a parent would lay back and wait for the school system to teach your children morality (thats basically what you said). I personally do that myself at home for my children, by what I know to be right, regardless of what society's norms are these days.
-Ralph
In the demonstable absence of evolutionary perfection, if some calamity is not to occur, we shall have to learn to live with ourselves as we are. Fast. -Tattersall
Pardon, but your ignorance is glaring, your so-called 'SCIENCE" bows everyday to what has been known/taught for thousands of years..
Funny you mention that, before 1492 the entire world believed/taught the earth was flat for thousands of years. Turned out new evidence discovered in 1492 proved that over a 1,000 years worth of teachings to be inaccurate.
Did Darwin actually recant his idea, of did all the screaming lunatics finally back him down to the point he said to heck with it, if you're too blind to see whats right in front of you, heck with the whole thing?
Some people are years ahead of their time. The world is only now ready for evolutionary theory, not so back then.
I bet you have no problem believing in dinosaurs, since the fossilized remains are there to prove they once existed, yet are unable to look at the same type of fossilized remains that clearly show a delination of the genus homo from one early state to the present configuration. Why are you open to the changes of all other species on earth throughout time except yours?
-Ralph
In the demonstable absence of evolutionary perfection, if some calamity is not to occur, we shall have to learn to live with ourselves as we are. Fast. -Tattersall
Best bet is quit, you aren't even debating the origional post. Go start your own topic.
My kids, when they reach 10th grade, yes, will receive ths training from school. They already receive all they need from me now. Like self reliance, the act of taking responsibility for ones own life, not laying around waiting for intelligent design to help you.
Genus Homo
habilis, ergaster, erectus, heidelbergensis, neanderthalensis, sapiens
Thants enough for now, I got to leave. Theres many more where that came from
-Ralph
In the demonstable absence of evolutionary perfection, if some calamity is not to occur, we shall have to learn to live with ourselves as we are. Fast. -Tattersall
I totally agree, Ohio has been making some good legislation decisions lately. I was happy to learn off GB when Taft signed the gay marriage ban which I had been following throughout the news and so forth and now you informed me about the science integration into classes. Way to go Ohio.
I just e-mailed a friend of mine, who is a high school science teacher, and asked about the new legislation and he was extremely happy about it, he thought it was about time.
thanks again, now I'm gonna go start my own topic[;)]
Jay
For those of you who do not want the Theory of Creationism taught as a possible/probable theory, along with evolution, I pose this question: Are you afraid that your child might be wise enough to formulate his/her own opinion...and choose Creationism, as their stance????
Eric
All American Arms Company
Veteran Owned and Operated
[:D]
NRA Life Member ---"A pocket knife, a clean hankey, and a pistol... things I can use." - Ted Nugent
I was never taught morality in public school, nor was I taught religion. They had a prayer over the speaker every morning along with the pledge. please tell me how you make this jump from evolution to morality.
I teach my children whats right and wrong, or rather affirm what they already know. I believe in genetic memory, that being that animals are born with an inate sense of right, wrong, and function; As with other behaviors such as reproduction, hunting, homebuilding( as beaver dams, or fox dens) and such.
You are more than welcome to reply, but I have to call into question the validity of your views since you had such a hard time commenting on the topic presented, and veered off onto other subjects without presenting evidence of why your leap was valid in the first place. You failed to tie the two topics together, yet pose your beliefs about both as if you had factually done so. If you want to discuss off topic, fine, either start a new discussion on a new thread, or factually link the two topics together as connected, and we'll go from there. Example: its as if I started a topic on the longevity of Ford vehicles and you stated they were junk because some of them came in blue paint. Your statements do not folow each other, one has totally no bearing upon the other.
As far as a friend affirming my beliefs making them valid, another jump, Suspension never commented on his belief of the theory, nor on your topic of morality. He only stated that he was glad to hear of the legislation. As far as friend, we have never met, but common interests have drawn all the members of this site to this discussion board. We probably would get along just fine in person.
ECC, My views are such that I can be presented with evidence that points to a natural process, and make decisions based on such evidence for myself. At least we do have skeletal ramains to look at in this instance, whereas you have only a gut feeling, and a book written by another man, to uphold your beliefs. What you suggest should make me believe that Star Wars is a factual account because it was written in book form. I can decide for myself between works of man being fiction or fact. In this case I believe your bible to be a written account of history, with a lot of heresay and outdated religion thrown in to make it into something it never was. By fact, Moby Dick has more fact in it than your bible because I know whales to exist, albinoism is a well-known genetic error, and men who persue whales for commercial purposes exist, not to mention ships and bodies of water large enough to accomodate both. But it is still a work of fiction. Make believe, for heavens sake! Who's ideals cannot be proven by any factual means whatsoever? I pose it is creationism.
origional topic: Paper today said that this legislation would be taught in schools, and tested by state exams at the 10th grade level.
-Ralph
In the demonstable absence of evolutionary perfection, if some calamity is not to occur, we shall have to learn to live with ourselves as we are. Fast. -Tattersall
REBJr since we are friends now according to babybear are you gonna cut me some good deals on some red and white oaks for my property??
Suspension, let me know what you want, you would be amazed at how cheaply I can get 12-14' potted or B/B trees. Usually for less than $15 a tree including shipping (last years pricing). I can usually sell these same for $50-75 each at the nursery. Be more than willing to sell at whosale to you, you plant them. Maybe we can meet up and shoot some paper along with picking up the trees.
-Ralph
In the demonstable absence of evolutionary perfection, if some calamity is not to occur, we shall have to learn to live with ourselves as we are. Fast. -Tattersall
Sorry, forgot something. What changes in species are you referring to? Name one thing that you can PROVE that has changed genus or phylum. Ducks are still ducks, cats are still cats, no monkey has suddenly walked from the forest and began to espouse it's lineage.
Where would you like to start? Horses? Pigs, mammoths, humans
just to name a few.
quote: posted by babybear
no monkey has suddenly walked from the forest and began to espouse it's lineage.
Or has he?.....Hmmmm [:D][}:)]
when you resort to name calling, it shows you are beginning to break down, that all your beliefs are based on hype, and not factual evidence
-Ralph
In the demonstable absence of evolutionary perfection, if some calamity is not to occur, we shall have to learn to live with ourselves as we are. Fast. -Tattersall
-Ralph
12-14' holly cow! When the weather breaks I plan on going through and figuring out exactly where I want to put some new ones in, but I was planning on starting out smaller whips, for your price we may need to shoot some paper and pick out some trees. Will let you know as soon as I can.
thanks much!
NRA Life Member ---"A pocket knife, a clean hankey, and a pistol... things I can use." - Ted Nugent
First, the hillary comment was based on your (both of you) comparable idea that it takes a village to raise a child, She'd be happy to see that you agree with her.
Second, did you have to be taught reproduction? I personally didn't, I just knew. Encoded.
Third, does a beaver know wood? I don't know, but you see to. I just thought they knew how to stack it to build a dam, and home. Even beavers that have never met actually build the same dam, using the same principals, so how did they know how to? Encoded. (probably from one beaver way back in time.
Fourth, evolution is a slow process, puncuiated by small leaps brought on by gentic error. No, you can't really watch evolution as it takes millions of years, based on (usually) environmental factors. The climate has made no noticiable changes in your lifetime, hence, no response to outside stimuli has been needed yet.
Fifth, what bullies? Now I'm picking on you because I don't agree with you? You replied to my topic.
Sixth, ECC's reply was pure emotion, devoid of fact, and embossed with anger. Probably why you thought he was siding with you, since you're being bullied. He added nothing constructive whatsoever to this debate. He merely voted.
Seventh, I have an education, 2 of them actually, working on a masters in AG Sciences. My other degree is in electronics. I believe I have plenty of education, along with further self study on many different interests of mine.
Eight, "Evolution and morality?? Training and learned responses? Takes it to the very crux of the matter. They can't be separated."
How so? You have yet to tie them together. Just because you think they are one and the same doesn't mean I agree. Proof?
Nine, Bully tactics? Please tell me when, what post specifically were you referring to? Real interested in that one.
Ten, proof. You need to leave the feelings, ancient beliefs, legends, myths, gods, ect. out of this. I personally don't care wether you believe in a god, or not. You can't start demanding proof of one side of this without submitting your proof for the other side. Which is what you've done. I've shown lineages of the genus homo and asked if you needed more. You have told me what you believe, and demanded that I change my ideas because of your beliefs. Doesn't work that way.
Eleven, I'm not picking on you. I submitted an article for the perusement of all members, you wished to engage me personally, and I have accomodated you thus far. I'm not working today, had to get a piece of metal ground off my eye this morning, so I have all day. May take a break when the crews come in to make payroll and get timesheets, but outside of that, I'm here. As long as its clean and above the belt, we can go on forever if you live.
Twelve, and final, You will not change my beliefs, nor do I hold any hope to convert yours. You have your faith, far from me to question what works for you, BUT, I will question what you submit for my inspection.
-Ralph
In the demonstable absence of evolutionary perfection, if some calamity is not to occur, we shall have to learn to live with ourselves as we are. Fast. -Tattersall
Hold up a second, here buddy. You said:
"Sixth, ECC's reply was pure emotion, devoid of fact, and embossed with anger. Probably why you thought he was siding with you, since you're being bullied. He added nothing constructive whatsoever to this debate. He merely voted."
That is a crock if I ever heard one.[:0] FIRST of all, my response was not emotional or embossed with anger. SECONDLY, everything in my post was FACT, and you are unable to dispute it. THIRD, I believe the above quote (your's) would apply to you, more than it would me.
I did not attack you or post any kind of angry response, so I would appreciate it if you would leave me out of your attacks. If you want to get down and dirty with me...be prepared.[;)]
Eric
All American Arms Company
Veteran Owned and Operated
Don't remember attacking you, She stated you were taking up for her, I didn't know she was being attacked. She propped your response up as truth, but I was unable to find any facts there, please post your sources as to evolution being shot full of holes daily. You said, " The theory of evolution is ridiculous, at best" Where are your facts for this obvious belief statement. You didn't say evolution is ridiculous because of ( insert current study here) you merely stated it. I don't have to post published fact, as a theory, evolution has been substanciated already.
I stated that you voted your belief. I stand by that statement. Perhaps I read anger into your post that you didn't mean to convey. Your use of : ridiculous, blinders, absurd, and capped NONE!!! led me to this conclusion.
If you wish to discuss something with me, by all means proceed. If you wish a fight, I'm always here, although I fail to see what relavence it bears on discussion. I don't enjoy being threatned. Please refrain from such with me, at least.
I believe your post was made with emotion, and deviod of published fact. You told us what you were doing with your children, and how you felt, hence my comment that you only voted .
-Ralph
In the demonstable absence of evolutionary perfection, if some calamity is not to occur, we shall have to learn to live with ourselves as we are. Fast. -Tattersall
ECC
Don't remember attacking you, She stated you were taking up for her, I didn't know she was being attacked. She propped your response up as truth, but I was unable to find any facts there, please post your sources as to evolution being shot full of holes daily. You said, " The theory of evolution is ridiculous, at best" Where are your facts for this obvious belief statement. You didn't say evolution is ridiculous because of ( insert current study here) you merely stated it. I don't have to post published fact, as a theory, evolution has been substanciated already.
I stated that you voted your belief. I stand by that statement. Perhaps I read anger into your post that you didn't mean to convey. Your use of : ridiculous, blinders, absurd, and capped NONE!!! led me to this conclusion.
If you wish to discuss something with me, by all means proceed. If you wish a fight, I'm always here, although I fail to see what relavence it bears on discussion. I don't enjoy being threatned. Please refrain from such with me, at least.
I believe your post was made with emotion, and deviod of published fact. You told us what you were doing with your children, and how you felt, hence my comment that you only voted .
-Ralph
In the demonstable absence of evolutionary perfection, if some calamity is not to occur, we shall have to learn to live with ourselves as we are. Fast. -Tattersall
I could recommend some excellent reading for you...if you'd bother to read it.?.? Mainstream science is even begining to back away from the theory of evolution...and because of the facts I stated above...discoveries, mathematical probability, lack of any credible evidence, etc. etc.
My initial post was not emotional at all. The reason I put some of the words in all caps, was to emphasize those points.
...And, I don't know where this comes from: "I don't enjoy being threatned. Please refrain from such with me, at least." Nobody has threatened you...I just told you to be prepared if you want to start attacking me.
It appears that you have misinterpreted my initial response, and parts of my subsequent post. Let me know if you are up to more reading and research in this area...I'd be happy to make some suggestions.
Eric
All American Arms Company
Veteran Owned and Operated
not the silly ramblings of an old man who later recanted his own "theory"!!
The story of Darwin's recanting is not true. Shortly after Darwin's death, Lady Hope told a gathering that she had visited Darwin on his deathbed and that he had expressed regret over evolution and had accepted Christ. However, Darwin's daughter Henrietta, who was with him during his last days, said Lady Hope never visited during any of Darwin's illnesses, that Darwin probably never saw her at any time, and that he never recanted any of his scientific views.
The story would be irrelevant even if true. The theory of evolution rests upon reams of evidence from many different sources, not upon the authority of any one person or persons.
quote:Originally posted by ECC
For those of you who do not want the Theory of Creationism taught as a possible/probable theory, along with evolution, I pose this question: Are you afraid that your child might be wise enough to formulate his/her own opinion...and choose Creationism, as their stance????
My main problem with teaching creationism as science is that the creationism is no more appropriate for a biology class than alchemy is appropriate for a chemistry class. The model of creationism is based on personal religious belief, not on scientific evidence.
However, there is also a logistical/time problem. Which version of creationism should be taught? Equal time would mean teaching:
? Other versions of creationism from other denominations of Christianity (including young-earth, old-earth, day-age, gap theory, geocentrism, and flat earth). All have equal basis for being taught, since they are all based on exactly the same Bible. All are mutually incompatible.
? Other versions of scientific creationism from other religions. Claims have been made for Moslem, Hindu, and Native American versions of creationism.
Other views of origin:
? creation by time travelers.
? Last Thursdayism, the unfalsifiable view that the universe and everything in it was created last Thursday with only the appearance of earlier history
? Raelianism or other extraterrestrial involvement
? solipsism
Creationists don't want all of these taught in science class any more than science educators do.
Why don't creationists advocate equal time for evolutionary theory in church services? [}:)]
Jacqueline
www.gratuitouslylongdomainname.net
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants and the creed of slaves." -- William Pitt (1783)
"Right is Right, even is everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it"
Funny you mention that, before 1492 the entire world believed/taught the earth was flat for thousands of years. Turned out new evidence discovered in 1492 proved that over a 1,000 years worth of teachings to be inaccurate.
I bet you have no problem believing in dinosaurs, since the fossilized remains are there to prove they once existed, yet are unable to look at the same type of fossilized remains that clearly show a delination of the genus homo from one early state to the present configuration. Why are you open to the changes of all other species on earth throughout time except yours?
-Ralph
No one in 1492 believed the world was flat, REB Jr. They thought China was on the other side of the Atlantic. Ppl haven't believed the world was flat since the ancient greeks (have you heard of Ptolemy??)
Further, there is no fossil evidence of a delineation of the genus homo. Familiar with the "missing link"?? Further, genetics disprove evolution scientifically. I'll show you mutation within a species; You show me mutation from one species into another. It does not exist.
Frog
GO NAVY, BEAT ARMY
Ya'll can trce your lineage back to wherever you want
I can trace my ancestry back to a protoplasmic, primordial, atomic globule. Consequently, my family pride is something inconceivable. [}:)]
Jacqueline
www.gratuitouslylongdomainname.net
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants and the creed of slaves." -- William Pitt (1783)
quote:Originally posted by dcon12
Ya'll can trce your lineage back to wherever you want
I can trace my ancestry back to a protoplasmic, primordial, atomic globule. Consequently, my family pride is something inconceivable. [}:)]
Jacqueline
www.gratuitouslylongdomainname.net
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants and the creed of slaves." -- William Pitt (1783)
If you think I'm getting the dictionary out for that...
"Right is Right, even is everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it"
[done]this is my last reply to you, you type for a lawyer and still haven't learned to debate points. [/done]
MissSlippers, loved it hon, mind if I borrow it sometime?
I can trace my ancestry back to a protoplasmic, primordial, atomic globule. Consequently, my family pride is something inconceivable.
Frog, really, I guess no one spent the rest of their life in prison because they drew a map where the earth revolved around the sun and angered the church at the time either, huh?
The missing link is something that the creationists came up with. horses, one with 4 toes 2' tall, then 4' with 4 toes, then present day size with 1 toe, a hoof, now, is there a missing link that stood present day size with 2 toes? no, as stated, sometimes it takes a leap. Explain how every mammal has a ratio of brain mass to body weight, a formula which holds true for all mammals except man, BUT, if you factor in early forms of man, there is successive increases in brain mass. If there is no successive evolution from lower form of life to man, why do we contain all the genetic encoding of lower life forms? Why does a human embryo form gills, then lungs? Why do we develop a primitive brain, then add the higher functions? Thats like building a 1 story ranch house, then building a skyscraper on top of it. Not the most efficient means by far, so why did an all knowing creator do things the long way around? to throw us off? to enforce the image he was never here, is god a CIA agent under deep cover?
-Ralph
In the demonstable absence of evolutionary perfection, if some calamity is not to occur, we shall have to learn to live with ourselves as we are. Fast. -Tattersall
Babybear, I'd love to know who you think put me in my place. LOL thats funny. See, you are getting all torn up over this, I merely think you are slightly off center and amusing. Some people can get too close to a subject to see it objectively. You remind me of my x-wife, when you are out of facts and loosing, you resort to agitation. Won't work here. I couldn't care less. snicker snicker[:D]
[done]this is my last reply to you, you type for a lawyer and still haven't learned to debate points. [/done]
MissSlippers, loved it hon, mind if I borrow it sometime?
I can trace my ancestry back to a protoplasmic, primordial, atomic globule. Consequently, my family pride is something inconceivable.
Frog, really, I guess no one spent the rest of their life in prison because they drew a map where the earth revolved around the sun and angered the church at the time either, huh?
-Ralph
In the demonstable absence of evolutionary perfection, if some calamity is not to occur, we shall have to learn to live with ourselves as we are. Fast. -Tattersall
Nothing for me?
"Right is Right, even is everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it"
which came first, chicken or egg? heaven or hades?(sorry, filter)
earth worship or sun worship? polydiety or monodiety religions?
sorry to leave you out, just didn't see anything to comment about. You voted
-Ralph
In the demonstable absence of evolutionary perfection, if some calamity is not to occur, we shall have to learn to live with ourselves as we are. Fast. -Tattersall
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/mole00/mole00114.htm
Question - Is it true that babies can be born with a
congenital throwback i.e. born with fish gill/s and if so what is it called?
All mammals seemingly have gill slits in their very early embryo development.
We call this ontogeny recapitulating phylogeny..where the development of the
individual goes through some of the characteristics of the animals lower in
the evolutionary development.
When we look at early fetal development of various animals we see all having
gill slits, and tails.
Your questions involves very complex answers, but I will address some aspects of
what you ask.
Yes, there are people born with tail-like fragments or protrusions of the spinal
column, that are removed or reinserted at birth. Though I have seen this in
some medical journal, it is so rare that I have had nurses question the whole idea.
These "tails" are usually not substantial in structure and certainly do not
take on a look of a monkey tail, etc. As a matter of fact, they may not be
a tail per sa. I questioned this idea for a long time until I found a friend
that was born with a very small protrusions of sorts. Whether it was a tail,
is probably a matter of semantics. I do not recall a name for this phenomenon.
If the gill-like slits did remain, the fetus would probably be naturally aborted
at a very young embryonic stage. The complex feedback system of embryo
development requires a successful step by step process. The human genome project
will probably address this or other past characteristics eventually. Humans have
a tremendous number of introns (I believe in chromosome 20 alone, there are 164
of these-source "Nature" (Dec. 2001 issue ?).It seems that much of our unused
DNA is coded for our evolutionary past, but this is not clear at this writing.
It is very clear that we are a product of evolutionary development and we are
the threshold of understanding all of this better thanks to DNA analysis studies
and related techniques. Keep your eye out for further developments and
explanations.
In the demonstable absence of evolutionary perfection, if some calamity is not to occur, we shall have to learn to live with ourselves as we are. Fast. -Tattersall
http://emporium.turnpike.net/C/cs/emlu.htm A CREATIONIST WEBSITE
Lucy and the First Family (Australopithecus afarensis)
In 1974 Donald Johanson and associates discovered about 40% of a skeleton of a short (3-4 foot tall), small brained (380-450cc) creature. This find was named "Lucy" since the Beatles' "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" was playing on tape recorder in the tent where Johanson was examining the fossils. Johanson announced that Lucy was 3.5 million years old and walked upright.
In the following year, 1975, Johanson's team unearthed 13 more individuals; four juveniles and nine adults. They were declared to be ancestors of man (hominids) and were named the "First Family". With names like Lucy, First Family, Lucy's Child, etc., how can these finds be anything but human ancestors? Lucy and her associates were portrayed as walking upright, with small human bodies and ape-like heads. This view has been widely publicized.
Lucy, et. al. have been given the designation "Australopithecus afarensis" and their claim to fame is walking upright. It should be noted at this point that apes sometimes walk upright - in fact there has even been a case of an ape which almost always used bipedal locomotion (Gish 1985, 162-163).
The view of Lucy habitually walking upright is not a universal consensus; it is challenged by some in the field. Note here that Zuckerman and Oxnard declared that Australopithecines did not walk upright, and they were examining specimens that were supposedly 2 million years younger. If anything, they should have evolved a more erect posture.
In an extensive study by Stern and Susman, they determined that the creatures walked upright, but not necessarily in a fully human manner and that they were adapted to an arboreal (tree climbing) mode of locomotion. From the creationist standpoint, these creatures were apes and no more adapted to bipedal locomotion than chimpanzees or gorillas (Gish 1985, 162).
In the demonstable absence of evolutionary perfection, if some calamity is not to occur, we shall have to learn to live with ourselves as we are. Fast. -Tattersall
Seems I have seen and read about a dinosaur with feathers, the fossil having been found. It has been believed that birds evolved from reptiles and this discovery pretty well cinched it. For me, the case for evolution has been proven. It is the natural order of things.
Please don't condemn your children to blisful ignorance.
sure, I'll break my own rule for you, then I'm off the computer for the night as your childishly asserted agitating remarks wear thin.
the debate is not over, you have won nothing but the honor of being noncommittal. Typical of a BS artist. never state fact, just talk real fast and keep changing the subject. kudos
My temperment, lil girl, you knowth me not, although I could have folks here give testimonies, but what do I care? *, I sure never married you. You couldn't compare to redhairvixen, I'd be lowering myself.
I have not given up the debate, I just refuse to talk to you. You make no sense. childish.
You've won nothing
Someones' sig line says never wrestle with a pig, you get muddy and the pig likes it. I'm going to take a bath, I feel dirty.
I await true debate from others with reasoning skills, as the former has been found lacking.
-Ralph
In the demonstable absence of evolutionary perfection, if some calamity is not to occur, we shall have to learn to live with ourselves as we are. Fast. -Tattersall
"Right is Right, even is everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it"