In order to participate in the GunBroker Member forums, you must be logged in with your GunBroker.com account. Click the sign-in button at the top right of the forums page to get connected.
quote:Originally posted by select-fire
quote:Originally posted by we_dig_it
Have you ever noticed that the kids with the highest test scores K-12 are home schooled?? Stew on that for awhile.........
Sounds like everything else the government does. Take away rewards for hardwork. With no motivation to get higher education, why would the teachers improve?
Government screwing up something that they know about in my opinion.
quote:Originally posted by we_dig_it
quote:Originally posted by select-fire
quote:Originally posted by we_dig_it
Have you ever noticed that the kids with the highest test scores K-12 are home schooled?? Stew on that for awhile.........
quote:Originally posted by select-fire
quote:Originally posted by we_dig_it
quote:Originally posted by select-fire
quote:Originally posted by we_dig_it
Have you ever noticed that the kids with the highest test scores K-12 are home schooled?? Stew on that for awhile.........
It is interesting to me that so many here quickly lose track of the issue covered in the OP: Tenure and increased pay based on advanced degrees.
Not student discipline or the lack thereof. Not whether the parents have instilled a thirst for learning. And not whether the current state of education is the fault of the teachers.
The points of discussion would seem to be restricted to:
1) Does increased pay for teachers due to a Master's degree equate to better education for the children?
2) Does tenure for teachers add value to the education system?
Why all the side excursions come into a discussion that ought to be focused on what the OP refers to is something I am afraid I do not understand.
And Doc, if there is a 'personal dig' in what I wrote, please point it out to me. I don't know you well enough to have formed what I would consider a 'personal' opinion, nor do I care to. I simply made some observations, based on what you wrote, and other things I have noticed in my wanderings on this forum.
If my mentioning that you mention your advanced degree fairly often bothers you, a simple and direct solution would be to not mention it so often. I have no idea of the education level of most folks here, because it doesn't matter, nor is there any way to verify any of it if someone states that they have a Triple Decker Doctorate from StarFleet Academy.
I pointed out that you asked for citations from others, yet didn't post any yourself until I mentioned it. And frankly, as you say, the problem with studies is that far too often, people do a 'study' to 'prove' what they already think.
As to my 'qualifications' to state my opinion, I am a former student, a current parent, and a life-long sentient human with an ability to observe, evaluate, think, and communicate. Do those only rank in your world if I list the alphabet soup behind my name?
In the interest of full disclosure, the smartest and most learned man I have ever known had an eighth grade education, followed by a lifetime of reading, observation, conversation, and thought. He could also have bought and sold most people without making a dent in his checkbook, but you would never have known of his fiscal success if you met him, because he considered it foolish and impolite to mention it. As to his intellect, he was the person who first told me that: "A wise man can learn something from everyone, a fool can learn from no one."
Would be nice if the "PARENTS" received a "report card" prepared by each teacher.
Children are taught by parents who don't or won't accept responsibility and in turn, don't teach it to their children.
Proof: Take a look at children (sic) after graduation and how much responsibility they accept. Actually they don't need to because the parents keep finding excuses to support them, buy a car for them, pay their bills while their "children" are trying to "decide" about their future. Even college grad still trying to delay their choice in life on employment - while still living at home on the $ of their parents.
Most children by age 12 have their own cell phone, lap top. By age 16 have their own car without "earning" a damned thing.
quote:Originally posted by Dads3040
It is interesting to me that so many here quickly lose track of the issue covered in the OP: Tenure and increased pay based on advanced degrees.
Not student discipline or the lack thereof. Not whether the parents have instilled a thirst for learning. And not whether the current state of education is the fault of the teachers.
The points of discussion would seem to be restricted to:
1) Does increased pay for teachers due to a Master's degree equate to better education for the children?
2) Does tenure for teachers add value to the education system?
Why all the side excursions come into a discussion that ought to be focused on what the OP refers to is something I am afraid I do not understand.
And Doc, if there is a 'personal dig' in what I wrote, please point it out to me. I don't know you well enough to have formed what I would consider a 'personal' opinion, nor do I care to. I simply made some observations, based on what you wrote, and other things I have noticed in my wanderings on this forum.
If my mentioning that you mention your advanced degree fairly often bothers you, a simple and direct solution would be to not mention it so often. I have no idea of the education level of most folks here, because it doesn't matter, nor is there any way to verify any of it if someone states that they have a Triple Decker Doctorate from StarFleet Academy.
I pointed out that you asked for citations from others, yet didn't post any yourself until I mentioned it. And frankly, as you say, the problem with studies is that far too often, people do a 'study' to 'prove' what they already think.
As to my 'qualifications' to state my opinion, I am a former student, a current parent, and a life-long sentient human with an ability to observe, evaluate, think, and communicate. Do those only rank in your world if I list the alphabet soup behind my name?
In the interest of full disclosure, the smartest and most learned man I have ever known had an eighth grade education, followed by a lifetime of reading, observation, conversation, and thought. He could also have bought and sold most people without making a dent in his checkbook, but you would never have known of his fiscal success if you met him, because he considered it foolish and impolite to mention it. As to his intellect, he was the person who first told me that: "A wise man can learn something from everyone, a fool can learn from no one."
Its GunBroker GD forums, topics always wander off........[:)]
My wife and daughter have been teaching in NC schools for many years.
I know enough about the school system to see that ending tenure can do more harm than good. There are ways to handle bad teachers already but too many are afraid to go against the PC crowd, and the racial part of that also. The problem I see is the politics and jealously that goes on can and has hurt good teachers. If there are improvements in the grievance process then it may work.
But I know that my family only had problems when a new principal came along that should never have had the job. Although my daughter for example has always had perfect evaluations, has been chair of her level, has been picked for special programs and honors, she has had a couple of principals who almost caused her to quit teaching.
NC teacher pay is among the lowest in the country, except for administrators of course. That's where the focus should be, but it's just the same old NC politics. You either try to work thru it or get out.
The problem is more good ones than bad ones just get out.
quote:Originally posted by we_dig_it
quote:Originally posted by thebambam2001
Originally posted by we_dig_it
There is such a thing as too much education......
[/q uote]
You sir are treading close to being a moron.[:(]
Have you never heard of "an educated idiot?" My bad, you may be one.....
Met several that fit that bill in my lifetime... Some were even the teach...
But you have to look past the obvious and see the intent.
quote:Originally posted by retroxler58
quote:Originally posted by we_dig_it
quote:Originally posted by thebambam2001
Originally posted by we_dig_it
There is such a thing as too much education......
[/q uote]
You sir are treading close to being a moron.[:(]
Have you never heard of "an educated idiot?" My bad, you may be one.....
Met several that fit that bill in my lifetime... Some were even the teach...
But you have to look past the obvious and see the intent.
Or else you too may come to fit the bill... [;)]
Most of my college professors were liberal, highly or over-educated, and some were idiots.
quote:Originally posted by we_dig_it
quote:Originally posted by thebambam2001
quote:Originally posted by we_dig_it
quote:Originally posted by thebambam2001
Originally posted by we_dig_it
There is such a thing as too much education......
[/q uote]
You sir are treading close to being a moron.[:(]
Have you never heard of "an educated idiot?" My bad, you may be one.....
Did you even finish high school?
yep, on the third try.[:X]
I graduated top third of my HS class... 53 of 161...
And married the valedictorian... [;)] She knew a good thing when she had it.
quote:Originally posted by retroxler58
I graduated top third of my HS class... 53 of 161...
And married the valedictorian... [;)] She knew a good thing when she had it.
quote:Originally posted by dcon12
quote:Originally posted by retroxler58
I graduated top third of my HS class... 53 of 161...
And married the valedictorian... [;)] She knew a good thing when she had it.
quote:Originally posted by we_dig_it
quote:Originally posted by dcon12
quote:Originally posted by retroxler58
I graduated top third of my HS class... 53 of 161...
And married the valedictorian... [;)] She knew a good thing when she had it.
quote:Originally posted by hobo9650
Would be nice if the "PARENTS" received a "report card" prepared by each teacher.
Children are taught by parents who don't or won't accept responsibility and in turn, don't teach it to their children.
Proof: Take a look at children (sic) after graduation and how much responsibility they accept. Actually they don't need to because the parents keep finding excuses to support them, buy a car for them, pay their bills while their "children" are trying to "decide" about their future. Even college grad still trying to delay their choice in life on employment - while still living at home on the $ of their parents.
Most children by age 12 have their own cell phone, lap top. By age 16 have their own car without "earning" a damned thing.
Vent over.
They couldn't in a lot of instances... most are one parent family .. or one is in jail.
Again....if we could get away from the "classroom mentality" it wouldn't be a problem if the parents never worked with the kids and the teachers would not be so harshly judged by these herds of students they have to deal with each day.
Each child would move forward at their own pace....and advance further in some things while staying behind in others. There are children out there who come from wonderful families that do not do well in school. There are kids that come from horrific families that do great.
I hate math....it took everything I had to make it through school, but reading and science came naturally. If I were in a class like I describe....I would be in middle school math classes and college level English courses.
I'm sure that in my math classes I would be surrounded by younger people and ALSO some "trouble makers" as well....but in the advanced classes I'm sure there would be less of the trouble makers.
At one time all you needed was an eigth grade education to teach grade school. The strange thing is that they may well have done a better job then than now.
Just why should you NEED a masters degree to teach grade school?
On the other hand the problem with paying based on performance is that not all students are equally capable or equally motivated.
You could create a situation where there were districts that would find it impossible to find teachers. That already exists to some degree but without some method to fairly judge teachers in those districts it would become much worse.
If the school systems would TEST the Teachers before hiring... well.. Not all Teachers are good. Some do it for the paycheck, most do it because they enjoy it. Anyone who thinks extra education and degrees do not help are foolish. Teachers making more money are expected to do more... in some instances to assist some Teachers who do not know what they are doing. Who would you hire as a Principal.. a 5 year Teacher who just has a B.S. degree or a 5 yr Teacher working on their masters.. or maybe their National Board Certification. Principals hire the BEST qualified Teachers they can get. One with lots of degrees have NO problem. And.. in SC the Principals salary is based on the highest 3 Teachers in the building. [;)][;)]
At my wife's last school, there was a teacher that all of the students loved and lots of the parents requested. He taught 4th grade and my wife taught 5th. They all loved him because of something he did in science. The problem was that it wasn't part of the curriculum. He also skipped sections.
My wife had a student that always did his homework and was an A student. She was really surprised when all of the sudden he was doing terrible on a section. It was finally determined that a fundamental principle that he needed to understand in order to do the task was completely skipped the year before by this "great" teacher.
quote:Originally posted by Doc
quote:Originally posted by we_dig_it
quote:Originally posted by Doc
Over educated is a term with no meaning. There is no finite amount of education.
thanks for making my case.
Um... You'll have to explain that response to me. I don't get your meaning. How did I make your case?
quote:Originally posted by dcon12
quote:Originally posted by Doc
quote:Originally posted by we_dig_it
quote:Originally posted by Doc
Over educated is a term with no meaning. There is no finite amount of education.
thanks for making my case.
Um... You'll have to explain that response to me. I don't get your meaning. How did I make your case?
Comments
quote:Originally posted by we_dig_it
Have you ever noticed that the kids with the highest test scores K-12 are home schooled?? Stew on that for awhile.........
Not taking the bait !
You don't have to, its a proven fact.
Government screwing up something that they know about in my opinion.
quote:Originally posted by select-fire
quote:Originally posted by we_dig_it
Have you ever noticed that the kids with the highest test scores K-12 are home schooled?? Stew on that for awhile.........
Not taking the bait !
You don't have to, its a proven fact.
Yawn [:0]
quote:Originally posted by we_dig_it
quote:Originally posted by select-fire
quote:Originally posted by we_dig_it
Have you ever noticed that the kids with the highest test scores K-12 are home schooled?? Stew on that for awhile.........
Not taking the bait !
You don't have to, its a proven fact.
Yawn [:0]
be sure and scroll down to the National Average Percentile Scores....
http://www.home-school.com/news/homeschool-vs-public-school.php
Not student discipline or the lack thereof. Not whether the parents have instilled a thirst for learning. And not whether the current state of education is the fault of the teachers.
The points of discussion would seem to be restricted to:
1) Does increased pay for teachers due to a Master's degree equate to better education for the children?
2) Does tenure for teachers add value to the education system?
Why all the side excursions come into a discussion that ought to be focused on what the OP refers to is something I am afraid I do not understand.
And Doc, if there is a 'personal dig' in what I wrote, please point it out to me. I don't know you well enough to have formed what I would consider a 'personal' opinion, nor do I care to. I simply made some observations, based on what you wrote, and other things I have noticed in my wanderings on this forum.
If my mentioning that you mention your advanced degree fairly often bothers you, a simple and direct solution would be to not mention it so often. I have no idea of the education level of most folks here, because it doesn't matter, nor is there any way to verify any of it if someone states that they have a Triple Decker Doctorate from StarFleet Academy.
I pointed out that you asked for citations from others, yet didn't post any yourself until I mentioned it. And frankly, as you say, the problem with studies is that far too often, people do a 'study' to 'prove' what they already think.
As to my 'qualifications' to state my opinion, I am a former student, a current parent, and a life-long sentient human with an ability to observe, evaluate, think, and communicate. Do those only rank in your world if I list the alphabet soup behind my name?
In the interest of full disclosure, the smartest and most learned man I have ever known had an eighth grade education, followed by a lifetime of reading, observation, conversation, and thought. He could also have bought and sold most people without making a dent in his checkbook, but you would never have known of his fiscal success if you met him, because he considered it foolish and impolite to mention it. As to his intellect, he was the person who first told me that: "A wise man can learn something from everyone, a fool can learn from no one."
Children are taught by parents who don't or won't accept responsibility and in turn, don't teach it to their children.
Proof: Take a look at children (sic) after graduation and how much responsibility they accept. Actually they don't need to because the parents keep finding excuses to support them, buy a car for them, pay their bills while their "children" are trying to "decide" about their future. Even college grad still trying to delay their choice in life on employment - while still living at home on the $ of their parents.
Most children by age 12 have their own cell phone, lap top. By age 16 have their own car without "earning" a damned thing.
Vent over.
It is interesting to me that so many here quickly lose track of the issue covered in the OP: Tenure and increased pay based on advanced degrees.
Not student discipline or the lack thereof. Not whether the parents have instilled a thirst for learning. And not whether the current state of education is the fault of the teachers.
The points of discussion would seem to be restricted to:
1) Does increased pay for teachers due to a Master's degree equate to better education for the children?
2) Does tenure for teachers add value to the education system?
Why all the side excursions come into a discussion that ought to be focused on what the OP refers to is something I am afraid I do not understand.
And Doc, if there is a 'personal dig' in what I wrote, please point it out to me. I don't know you well enough to have formed what I would consider a 'personal' opinion, nor do I care to. I simply made some observations, based on what you wrote, and other things I have noticed in my wanderings on this forum.
If my mentioning that you mention your advanced degree fairly often bothers you, a simple and direct solution would be to not mention it so often. I have no idea of the education level of most folks here, because it doesn't matter, nor is there any way to verify any of it if someone states that they have a Triple Decker Doctorate from StarFleet Academy.
I pointed out that you asked for citations from others, yet didn't post any yourself until I mentioned it. And frankly, as you say, the problem with studies is that far too often, people do a 'study' to 'prove' what they already think.
As to my 'qualifications' to state my opinion, I am a former student, a current parent, and a life-long sentient human with an ability to observe, evaluate, think, and communicate. Do those only rank in your world if I list the alphabet soup behind my name?
In the interest of full disclosure, the smartest and most learned man I have ever known had an eighth grade education, followed by a lifetime of reading, observation, conversation, and thought. He could also have bought and sold most people without making a dent in his checkbook, but you would never have known of his fiscal success if you met him, because he considered it foolish and impolite to mention it. As to his intellect, he was the person who first told me that: "A wise man can learn something from everyone, a fool can learn from no one."
Its GunBroker GD forums, topics always wander off........[:)]
Its GunBroker GD forums, topics always wander off........[:)]
[/quote]
I have ADHD.....Hey! Look! There goes a chicken! [;)][:o)]
I know enough about the school system to see that ending tenure can do more harm than good. There are ways to handle bad teachers already but too many are afraid to go against the PC crowd, and the racial part of that also. The problem I see is the politics and jealously that goes on can and has hurt good teachers. If there are improvements in the grievance process then it may work.
But I know that my family only had problems when a new principal came along that should never have had the job. Although my daughter for example has always had perfect evaluations, has been chair of her level, has been picked for special programs and honors, she has had a couple of principals who almost caused her to quit teaching.
NC teacher pay is among the lowest in the country, except for administrators of course. That's where the focus should be, but it's just the same old NC politics. You either try to work thru it or get out.
The problem is more good ones than bad ones just get out.
quote:
Its GunBroker GD forums, topics always wander off........[:)]
I have ADHD.....Hey! Look! There goes a chicken! [;)][:o)]
FIFY... [;)]
And where's the chicken... ?
quote:Originally posted by thebambam2001
quote:Originally posted by thebambam2001
quote:Originally posted by we_dig_it
quote:Originally posted by thebambam2001
quote:Originally posted by we_dig_it
quote:Originally posted by thebambam2001
quote:Originally posted by thebambam2001
quote:Originally posted by we_dig_it
quote:Originally posted by thebambam2001
Too old to live...too young to die...
I graduated top third of my HS class... 53 of 161...
And married the valedictorian... [;)] She knew a good thing when she had it.
See, too much education..... Don
quote:Originally posted by retroxler58
I graduated top third of my HS class... 53 of 161...
And married the valedictorian... [;)] She knew a good thing when she had it.
See, too much education..... Don
Dr. Don nails it again......[8D]
Over educated is a term with no meaning. There is no finite amount of education.
thanks for making my case.
quote:Originally posted by dcon12
quote:Originally posted by retroxler58
I graduated top third of my HS class... 53 of 161...
And married the valedictorian... [;)] She knew a good thing when she had it.
See, too much education..... Don
Dr. Don nails it again......[8D]
Yep... [:D]
Would be nice if the "PARENTS" received a "report card" prepared by each teacher.
Children are taught by parents who don't or won't accept responsibility and in turn, don't teach it to their children.
Proof: Take a look at children (sic) after graduation and how much responsibility they accept. Actually they don't need to because the parents keep finding excuses to support them, buy a car for them, pay their bills while their "children" are trying to "decide" about their future. Even college grad still trying to delay their choice in life on employment - while still living at home on the $ of their parents.
Most children by age 12 have their own cell phone, lap top. By age 16 have their own car without "earning" a damned thing.
Vent over.
They couldn't in a lot of instances... most are one parent family .. or one is in jail.
quote:Originally posted by Dads3040
quote:
Its GunBroker GD forums, topics always wander off........[:)]
I have ADHD.....Hey! Look! There goes a chicken! [;)][:o)]
FIFY... [;)]
And where's the chicken... ?
What Chicken? [;)]
Each child would move forward at their own pace....and advance further in some things while staying behind in others. There are children out there who come from wonderful families that do not do well in school. There are kids that come from horrific families that do great.
I hate math....it took everything I had to make it through school, but reading and science came naturally. If I were in a class like I describe....I would be in middle school math classes and college level English courses.
I'm sure that in my math classes I would be surrounded by younger people and ALSO some "trouble makers" as well....but in the advanced classes I'm sure there would be less of the trouble makers.
Why can't we do this???
Just why should you NEED a masters degree to teach grade school?
On the other hand the problem with paying based on performance is that not all students are equally capable or equally motivated.
You could create a situation where there were districts that would find it impossible to find teachers. That already exists to some degree but without some method to fairly judge teachers in those districts it would become much worse.
My wife had a student that always did his homework and was an A student. She was really surprised when all of the sudden he was doing terrible on a section. It was finally determined that a fundamental principle that he needed to understand in order to do the task was completely skipped the year before by this "great" teacher.
quote:Originally posted by Doc
Over educated is a term with no meaning. There is no finite amount of education.
thanks for making my case.
Um... You'll have to explain that response to me. I don't get your meaning. How did I make your case?
Too old to live...too young to die...
quote:Originally posted by we_dig_it
quote:Originally posted by Doc
Over educated is a term with no meaning. There is no finite amount of education.
thanks for making my case.
Um... You'll have to explain that response to me. I don't get your meaning. How did I make your case?
Damn, even I got that. Don
quote:Originally posted by Doc
quote:Originally posted by we_dig_it
quote:Originally posted by Doc
Over educated is a term with no meaning. There is no finite amount of education.
thanks for making my case.
Um... You'll have to explain that response to me. I don't get your meaning. How did I make your case?
Damn, even I got that. Don
[:D][:D]
Too old to live...too young to die...
Changing education paradigms http://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_changing_education_paradigms.html
Schools kill creativity: http://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity.html
NS