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The more I shoot and reflect on the subject, the more I like the 45 over the 9mm. I really don't think of the 9mm as a slouch in any manner, but the 45 ACP is just a better caliber if you up against a determined perp (assuming you do your part). A larger bullet that can draw blood with a wider wound diameter will incapacitate someone faster. Simple physiology.
There's a lot of pistols that are a heck of a lot more powerful than the .45 ACP. Man, you guys act like the .45 ACP is the greatest thing since sliced bread...
quote: There's a lot of pistols that are a heck of a lot more powerful than the .45 ACP. Man, you guys act like the .45 ACP is the greatest thing since sliced bread...
BH- Correction: the 6mm is the best thing since sliced bread, the 45 ACP is a lagging second place[;)] Unfortunately they don't make any 6mm autoloading pistols so I opt for the 45[:D]
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I like the .45 ACP. When I bought my Glock 20 I almost bought the model 21 which was the venerable .45. However, when I started researching it I noticed that the .45 had much less velocity and energy than 10mm. Besides that the model 21 held 13 in its magazine whereas the model 20 held 15. It really wasn't hard to make an informed decision with this data in hand.
No, I'm not trying to downplay the effectiveness of the .45 ACP. However, for personal defense (be it concealed or open carry) I'd rate it down a ways.
How I have come to these conclusions is by simply taking the velocity and energy and multiply that by the number of rounds the gun typically holds, and then compare that figure to carrying ability. In other words, a single-action .500 S&W or .454 are not exactly what you're going to lug around all day, nor is a Desert Eagle in one of their powerful firearms.
Yep, I know I'm going to get flamed on this one. I agree with many of you guys most of the time and I'm really not saying the .45 ACP is puny or worthless - not by a long-shot (pun intended). However, I'm tired of everybody talking like it's the very best thing that has ever been made and that we just as well stop trying to improve on it.
I gotta ask why you placed the .40 S&W so high Bambihunter? The .40 seems to be a mediocre mix of mass and velocity. The box of federal I'm looking at right now, is 180 gr. at under 1000 fps. I'm sure there are higher-velocity, low-mass loads, but the same can be said for the .45
Just seems, that since you're getting lower velocities, you may as well have the entire 230 gr. mass to ensure the energy ends up in the target, and not in the wall behind the target. It's like having skinny little tires on a hot-rod car; the energy means nothing if you don't have the surface area to distribute it. Or so is my line of reasoning. Not to mention, you don't have to worry as much about the .45 clearing several walls in a home.
That being said, my carry-gun is a .357 SIG and I trust the little bottle-necked round to do what it is designed to; though I hope I never have to put that faith to the test, and I'm currently shopping around for a 10mm.
What's all this loose talk about sliced bread????[:o)]
I see that it's time to post this again! (Pay particular attention to #24)
Rules for attending a Gunfight
1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns.
2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive.
3. Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.
4. If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough or using cover correctly.
5. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral and diagonal movement are preferred.)
6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun.
7. In ten years nobody will remember the details of number of shots fired, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived.
8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running.
9. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun. Use a gun that works EVERY TIME.
"All skill is in vain when an Angel pisses in the flintlock of your musket."
10. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.
11. Always cheat, always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.
12. Have a plan.
13. Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work.
14. Use cover or concealment as much as possible.
15. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.
16. Don't drop your guard.
17. Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees.
18. Watch their hands. Hands kill. (In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them.)
19. Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.
20. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.
21. Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
22. Be courteous to everyone. Friendly to no one.
23. Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.
24. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, unless the caliber starts with a "4" and ends with a "5".
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Handgun Control, Inc. says they want to "Keep guns out of the wrong hands."
Guess what?
You have the wrong hands.
Good points Spectre7... The main reason the .40S&W is where I put it is because of the sheer amount of ammo many of the pre-ban designs would hold. I personally consider the .45 ACP and the .40 S&W as near equals. However, when you figure in the pre-ban capacity it was enough to throw it a ways a head of the .45 ACP.
However, if you limit all the guns to the current limit of 10 rounds or less, my 1st two choices would be the same and the .40 would drop down to about equal with the .357 (with 6 shots).
I don't by any means consider my "chart" to be cut and dried, through research that's what I have found based on the criteria already stated. As you can imagine, if all the cartridges were limited to 6 shot revolvers, my order would be MUCH different!
Yep Matt45, they started slicing it now, but just in a few selected cities. [;)]
I hear there is even some kind of special non-wheat variety coming out soon.
Ahh, I guess you're right about capacity. I can't think of many high-cap .45's. Well, really, only the Para P-14 (14 rounds I think?) comes to mine, but I hardly have the encyclopedic knowledge of some here.
I'm up for a few more hours (but will be gone starting tomorrow evening). So, wanna debate a little about it? [:)]
I have found several .44 mag revolvers that weren't too bad to carry, the trade off is that they are a biotch to shoot in that size.
How exactly do you have the .40 Short & Weak in front of the 10mm? They use the same exact projectiles but the .40 has less powder, thus less velocity and energy. Same for the .357 SIG. I just BARELY give the edge to the SIG over the .40 so I won't argue that one...
I think I need to post this picture again to illustrate my point:
Again refer (if you'd like) to see how I arrived at the cartridges in the order I put them in.
For example, these are the best loading (higher energy example given generally) available from Winchester's site against thier only loading (I never said the 10mm was widely available or popular [:I]) for the 10mm.
quote:I have found several .44 mag revolvers that weren't too bad to carry, the trade off is that they are a biotch to shoot in that size.
Yep, that's kinda what I meant.
The 10mm is so far down on the list for two reasons- My familiarity with it and it's general availibility, at least as I percieve it. Also, my hands-on knowledge of the .40 is that it is a very controllable, capable round.
Jamming more powder behind a bullet does not make it a better round.
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Handgun Control, Inc. says they want to "Keep guns out of the wrong hands."
Guess what?
You have the wrong hands.
The difference between the .357 mag and the .357 SIG as far as stopping power (based on ft-lbs of energy) is slim enough that I give the edge to the SIG based on increased capacity and less recoil in my experience. Just my opinion though, but I think the mag may be a little out-dated at this point as far as defense applications are concerned.
As a side-note, the .40 S&W coming out of my Glock 33 has noticeably sharper recoil than the .357 SIG rounds, and has less energy, though greater mass.
I don't think magnums are outdated YET... I think they actually got a small resurgence after the '94 crime bill was enacted and limited hi-cap's. Before, a big-@$$ magazine of 9mm's had more total energy than 6 .44 mag bullets, now with the crime bill a 10 shot 9mm vs. a 6 shot .44 mag is night and day. As far as the .357 mag vs. the .357 SIG, the mag still has it on both energy and velocity (at least all the references I found) but if I had to choose between a 6 (or 7 shot in case of the 686+ S&W) of .357 mag and at least 10 .357 SIG rounds - I'd take the SIG.
Matt45, you should get familiar with the 10mm, it's a great round. Your perception of its availability isn't far off. However, one can still buy ammo at all the stores I go to including Wal-mart, but the choices are much more limited than even a .40. For handloading a person can have all the same components (except for brass obviously) and load what ever combination you want. The firearm choices is fairly restrictive too. Glock makes 2 models, E.A.A. imports the Tangfolio CZ-75 based Witness and that's about it for new guns that I can think of off the top of my head. I know they also make a 10mm version of the MP5 (that'd make me smile all day long to have one of those! [:D]) Of course, many of the older 10mm's can still be had. S&W made the 10xx series that the FBI used (namely the 1076) for several years until they decided to lower the recoil (and ultimately the case length and power). If you are a Colt fan (which if I recall you were majorly) they made the Delta Elite, Delta Gold Cup, the Government model, and a couple more if I recall.
Matt45, I agree with ya that simply adding more powder doesn't make it better, but in many, many cases it doesn't hurt it any.
I hope ya just got tired and not tired of me (defending my position)!
G'nite man.
I wonder about the recoil difference with the magnum vs. SIG. As it has been monsooning, for lack of a better description, pretty much daily I haven't had time to take out the Rossi I bought a short time ago and get any hands on experience with the round.
I think this would be a hard comparison Spectre7. It'd be comparing apples to oranges unless you can obtain the same firearm's type.
For instance, with the exception of my .44 mags the hardest shooting pistol I've had is a stupid (cheap) 9mm that I bought 15 years ago - and sold it within just a few weeks. I am not sure why to this day, but that thing would kick a fair amount, probably similiar to my 10mm but the muzzle flip was terrible. I swear sometimes I was looking down the barrel after a shot.
That said, I think the semi-auto SIG would be significantly lighter than a short-barreled revolver. The specs are relatively close on them, did you see the specs I posted above?
Yes I saw the specs. Prompted me to get my Shooter's Bible actually; I realized the SIG would match low magnum loads, but I didn't realize they ran that close. I keep Corbon hollopoints in my carry-clips, but I've been on their site reading about their PowRball ammo for the last few minutes. Have you taken a look at the specs? Looks very impressive to me. http://www.corbon.com/PowRball.html
I've got the 95th edition of the shooters bible. I was going to post specs from there but I figured there might be some people that wouldn't believe the figures, so that's why I picked a web site and posted from there so they can check it for themself.
BTW, the very best listing in the Shooter's Bibile is for each is:
.357 SIG
Speer 125 Gold Dot
velocity (fps) 1375
energy (ft-lb) 525
.357 Mag
Hornady 125 JHP/XTP
velocity (fps) 1500
energy (ft-lb) 624
As you can see, even on thier listings it is very competitive with the mag, but it isn't quite what it offers.
I'm using a 93rd addition that was stripped at work. Do you have any thoughts about the 400 Corbon? I had actually forgotten it existed until I saw it on their website. They mention a drop-in barrels for .45's, but I've not seen a firearm designed to fire it specifically. Think it'll be one of those new designs that fades quickly? Or maybe it has a chance?
Interesting discussion.....I wonder how many of these superwhamodyne calibers will still be around in 30 years. It's an odds on bet that the .45ACP will still be at the top of the list and the 9mm close to the bottom. Beach
I think it'll fade unless they get some guns factory chambered in it (like the 10mm will eventually if the few manufacturers ever stop producing it). I've never shot one or know anyone who has, but everything I've seen and read about it shows positive results.
As I posted in http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=68738 about guns that faded out that were superior to the ones that made it.
I don't know what I think about thier powRball ammo either. I'm intrigued, but not excited about it.
Beach, I think as long as the U.S. military is using the 9mm it'll stay around. Some of the other chambering's such as my beloved 10mm will likely live an existance in the shadows because its true potential was over-shadowed by some wusses at the FBI that couldn't handle a little recoil. When they dropped the 10mm in favor of the .40 S&W I think it sealed its fate.
This might sound harsh, that honestly isn't how I mean it. I think the .45 ACP will VERY SLOWLY fade out of preference as the generation of men that used it and made it so popular, expire. No disrespect to anyone meant by that statement.
Bambi...your point is not offensive. Many of the men who used the .45 in combat are passing. But it will be a long time before we start seeing those new calibers out on the line at Camp Perry. The M-92 in 9mm is there only because the AMU expended mucho dollars getting it up to near 1911 competition standards. I guess I'll defer to the LEOs here who need a carry gun for close range combat marksmanship. I just haven't seen any of those superwhamodyne double stacks shooting nearly as accurately at 50 yards as an average competition 1911 .45ACP. The highly modified Colt Gold Cup I carried in my shoulder holster in Somalia is the same one, in the same configuration, that I shot until very recently at Camp Perry. We each know what is best for ourselves......and I know all of those Marines in Mogadishu were envious of my .45 while they had to carry their "Italian Stallions".....Beach
BH- The one thing you need to consider also is that higher bullet speeds don't necessarily equal higher stopping power. If I had a choice between a 44 Mag and a 44 Special for a gunfight I would opt for the 44 Special. The advantage of the magnums (including the 10mm) is in its ability to penetrate harder targets and light cover while retaining a sufficient amount of terminal energy. On an open target the faster bullet is often not going to expand quickly enough while passing through 8-10 inches of tissue (16-24" if you're a Booger[;)]) to provide adequate stopping power. If the target is an animal, like a bear or deer lets say, then the additional thickness of tissue and expansion time allows greater expansion and significantly greater damage. Now when you get up to rifle velocities the energy levels are so high that even though a small percentage of the energy is transferred it is substantial in what it can do to an target. The other factor that you have to consider is the overpenetration of a target. I used to carry in a backup rig a Makarov with handloaded XTP's for use in crowded situations just for that reason, if you are in a crowd and start shooting 9mm's, 10mm's, 357's, 44's, 45 WinMags, you're going to hit a lot of people downrange. Energy not transferred to the target becomes a liability and doesn't justify the additional recoil and lack of controllability. Also, JHP's don't always work, so counting on expansion for stopping power is like hoping for tax cuts from a Democrat. Happens sometimes but it isn't as likely as you'd prefer[;)]. Larger holes hurt more, larger holes are more incapacitating. In my tests, I found that 9mm Mak XTP's would expand or disintegrate rather reliably if loaded closer to 1100fps and even if they didn't they weren't likely to overpenetrate. In that particular environment, having a round capable of having an explosive effect on impact without being a steep hazard to bystanders was important. On an semi-open/covered target a 357 JHP, 40 S&W JTC, 45 JSP/FMJ would probably give an adequate combination of penetration and stopping power. On an open target, the 40 S&W JHP, 44 Special SWC/JHP, and 45ACP JHP are going to give more consistent performance as they are not dependent on velocity and expansion to make a larger hole. Optimally, I'd want something that made large holes and had no overpenetration. Here's how I'd rate these choices for OPEN targets like you would likely encounter in a street situation:
bambihunter-
quote:I hope ya just got tired and not tired of me (defending my position)!
No Bud, defend on! There's just been more than a few long days & short nights for me.....
My most recent aquisition was a Tanfoglio-75 in 9mm (My 1st 9mm), and I think it's a great range gun, if it had a better chambering, I'd think about carrying it, so, in that light the 10mm might catch my attention, as would a Gov't Model.
The only real drawbacks I can foresee is:
I reload about 10 calibers now, until I actually get around to completing/setting up/building my reloading room, I don't want to further complicate my life with yet another caliber.
I don't regularly shoot all of my pistols no enough to say that I am proficient with all-another pistol would make that worse.
I like the .45ACP, I have .45ACP brass coming out of my ears. Same with my other cartridges, except for .357 & .38......
I can't afford a new-to-me pistol for about another 6 months.
Boy, that's a long list of really weak excuses to not buy another gun[B)][:0]...maybe my wife has been playing some kinda subliminal tape while I've been snoozin'?????[:(!]
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Handgun Control, Inc. says they want to "Keep guns out of the wrong hands."
Guess what?
You have the wrong hands.
What would you rather be hit with, a hypodermic needle traveling at 1000 mph, or a golf ball traveling at 100 mph?
The 9 mm would be like the first one, and whatever it hits may not show the effects as fast as the shooter would desire. The 45 is like the golf ball, bigger, and moving slower. When it hits something that something usually knows it has been hit, and stays hit!
Trinity +++
"Train up a child in the way he should go, even when he is old he will not depart from it."(Proverbs 22:6)
Ruger Security Six wheel gun--.357 Mag 125 grain JHP..Up close and personable--six chances and only one need count..of course my back up gun is a small Glock in .45 ACP.
Comments
NOT!
IMHO there is no real comparison, .45ACP is a mankiller, 9mm is a great target/range pistol. Done Deal.
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Handgun Control, Inc. says they want to "Keep guns out of the wrong hands."
Guess what?
You have the wrong hands.
Three Precious Metals: Gold, silver and lead
Gun control is a steady hand
But an off-center hit with a 45 Hydra-shok will do the same[;)]
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SUPPORT THE I.N.S. , THE COUNTRY THEY SAVE COULD BE YOUR OWN
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Handgun Control, Inc. says they want to "Keep guns out of the wrong hands."
Guess what?
You have the wrong hands.
BH- Correction: the 6mm is the best thing since sliced bread, the 45 ACP is a lagging second place[;)] Unfortunately they don't make any 6mm autoloading pistols so I opt for the 45[:D]
Love them Beavers
SUPPORT THE I.N.S. , THE COUNTRY THEY SAVE COULD BE YOUR OWN
No, I'm not trying to downplay the effectiveness of the .45 ACP. However, for personal defense (be it concealed or open carry) I'd rate it down a ways.
1. 10mm
2. .357 SIG
3. .40 S&W
4. .44 mag
5. .357 mag
6. .45 win mag
7. .41 mag
8. .45 ACP
9. .38 Super
10 .380
How I have come to these conclusions is by simply taking the velocity and energy and multiply that by the number of rounds the gun typically holds, and then compare that figure to carrying ability. In other words, a single-action .500 S&W or .454 are not exactly what you're going to lug around all day, nor is a Desert Eagle in one of their powerful firearms.
Yep, I know I'm going to get flamed on this one. I agree with many of you guys most of the time and I'm really not saying the .45 ACP is puny or worthless - not by a long-shot (pun intended). However, I'm tired of everybody talking like it's the very best thing that has ever been made and that we just as well stop trying to improve on it.
Just seems, that since you're getting lower velocities, you may as well have the entire 230 gr. mass to ensure the energy ends up in the target, and not in the wall behind the target. It's like having skinny little tires on a hot-rod car; the energy means nothing if you don't have the surface area to distribute it. Or so is my line of reasoning. Not to mention, you don't have to worry as much about the .45 clearing several walls in a home.
That being said, my carry-gun is a .357 SIG and I trust the little bottle-necked round to do what it is designed to; though I hope I never have to put that faith to the test, and I'm currently shopping around for a 10mm.
Typos and profanity, oh my! http://www.funky-town.org
What's all this loose talk about sliced bread????[:o)]
I see that it's time to post this again! (Pay particular attention to #24)
Rules for attending a Gunfight
1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns.
2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive.
3. Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.
4. If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough or using cover correctly.
5. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral and diagonal movement are preferred.)
6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun.
7. In ten years nobody will remember the details of number of shots fired, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived.
8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running.
9. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun. Use a gun that works EVERY TIME.
"All skill is in vain when an Angel pisses in the flintlock of your musket."
10. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.
11. Always cheat, always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.
12. Have a plan.
13. Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work.
14. Use cover or concealment as much as possible.
15. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.
16. Don't drop your guard.
17. Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees.
18. Watch their hands. Hands kill. (In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them.)
19. Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.
20. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.
21. Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
22. Be courteous to everyone. Friendly to no one.
23. Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.
24. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, unless the caliber starts with a "4" and ends with a "5".
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Handgun Control, Inc. says they want to "Keep guns out of the wrong hands."
Guess what?
You have the wrong hands.
However, if you limit all the guns to the current limit of 10 rounds or less, my 1st two choices would be the same and the .40 would drop down to about equal with the .357 (with 6 shots).
I don't by any means consider my "chart" to be cut and dried, through research that's what I have found based on the criteria already stated. As you can imagine, if all the cartridges were limited to 6 shot revolvers, my order would be MUCH different!
Yep Matt45, they started slicing it now, but just in a few selected cities. [;)]
Ahh, I guess you're right about capacity. I can't think of many high-cap .45's. Well, really, only the Para P-14 (14 rounds I think?) comes to mine, but I hardly have the encyclopedic knowledge of some here.
Typos and profanity, oh my! http://www.funky-town.org
I can only hope and dream that day will come........[:p]
Until then I think I'll stick to slicing my own and nearly 1/2 inch of 230Gr "Lay down and stay down".[:D]
BTW & FWIW- IMHO that list should look more like this-
1. .44 mag
2. .45 ACP
3. .45 Win Mag
4. .40 S&W
5. .41 mag
6. .357 Mag
7. .357 Sig
8. .10mm
9. .38 Super
10 .380
I've just never found a .44Mag pistol that I'd care to carry all day long.
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Handgun Control, Inc. says they want to "Keep guns out of the wrong hands."
Guess what?
You have the wrong hands.
I have found several .44 mag revolvers that weren't too bad to carry, the trade off is that they are a biotch to shoot in that size.
How exactly do you have the .40 Short & Weak in front of the 10mm? They use the same exact projectiles but the .40 has less powder, thus less velocity and energy. Same for the .357 SIG. I just BARELY give the edge to the SIG over the .40 so I won't argue that one...
I think I need to post this picture again to illustrate my point:
Again refer (if you'd like) to see how I arrived at the cartridges in the order I put them in.
10mm
175 gr. Super-Xr Silvertipr Hollow Point
Velocity 1290
Energy (ft. lbs.) 649
http://winchester.com/ammunition/store/cfhproductsheet.aspx?symbol=X10MMSTHP&qrystr=Y2FydGxpc3QrQUQwLU1UQnRiU0JCZFhSdmJXRjBhV00rQUNVLTNkK0FDWS11c2VsaXN0K0FEMC1ub25lK0FDWS1icmFuZGxpc3QrQUQwLW5vbmUrQUNZLWJ1bGxldHR5cGUrQUQwLW5vbmU=
.40 S&W
155 gr. Super-Xr Silvertipr Hollow Point
Velocity (fps) 1205
Energy (ft. lbs.) 500
http://winchester.com/ammunition/store/cfhproductsheet.aspx?symbol=X40SWSTHP&qrystr=Y2FydGxpc3QrQUQwLU5EQWdVMjFwZEdnZ0swRkRXUzBnVjJWemMyOXUrQUNZLXVzZWxpc3QrQUQwLW5vbmUrQUNZLWJyYW5kbGlzdCtBRDAtbm9uZStBQ1ktYnVsbGV0dHlwZStBRDAtbm9uZQ==
.357 SIG
125 gr. USA Jacketed Hollow Point
Velocity (fps) 1350
Energy (ft. lbs.) 506
http://winchester.com/ammunition/store/cfhproductsheet.aspx?symbol=USA357SJHP&qrystr=Y2FydGxpc3QrQUQwLU16VTNJRk5KUncrQUNVLTNkK0FDVS0zZCtBQ1ktdXNlbGlzdCtBRDAtbm9uZStBQ1ktYnJhbmRsaXN0K0FEMC1ub25lK0FDWS1idWxsZXR0eXBlK0FEMC1ub25l
.357 Mag
125 gr. Super-Xr Jacketed Hollow Point
Velocity (fps) 1450
Energy (ft. lbs.) 583
http://winchester.com/ammunition/store/cfhproductsheet.aspx?symbol=X3576P&qrystr=Y2FydGxpc3QrQUQwLU16VTNJRTFoWjI1MWJRK0FDVS0zZCtBQ1UtM2QrQUNZLXVzZWxpc3QrQUQwLW5vbmUrQUNZLWJyYW5kbGlzdCtBRDAtbm9uZStBQ1ktYnVsbGV0dHlwZStBRDAtbm9uZQ==
.45 ACP
170 gr. Super Clean NTr (Tin) Super Clean
Velocity (fps) 1050
Energy (ft. lbs.) 416
http://winchester.com/ammunition/store/cfhproductsheet.aspx?symbol=SC45NT&qrystr=Y2FydGxpc3QrQUQwLU5EVWdRWFYwYjIxaGRHbGorQUNZLXVzZWxpc3QrQUQwLW5vbmUrQUNZLWJyYW5kbGlzdCtBRDAtbm9uZStBQ1ktYnVsbGV0dHlwZStBRDAtbm9uZQ==
Yep, that's kinda what I meant.
The 10mm is so far down on the list for two reasons- My familiarity with it and it's general availibility, at least as I percieve it. Also, my hands-on knowledge of the .40 is that it is a very controllable, capable round.
Jamming more powder behind a bullet does not make it a better round.
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Handgun Control, Inc. says they want to "Keep guns out of the wrong hands."
Guess what?
You have the wrong hands.
As a side-note, the .40 S&W coming out of my Glock 33 has noticeably sharper recoil than the .357 SIG rounds, and has less energy, though greater mass.
Typos and profanity, oh my! http://www.funky-town.org
I just bounced my nose against the keyboard-[B)]- methinks it's time for a mid-summer's snooze-[|)]
See ya later!!!![:D]
Reserving my Right to Arm Bears!!!!
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Handgun Control, Inc. says they want to "Keep guns out of the wrong hands."
Guess what?
You have the wrong hands.
Matt45, you should get familiar with the 10mm, it's a great round. Your perception of its availability isn't far off. However, one can still buy ammo at all the stores I go to including Wal-mart, but the choices are much more limited than even a .40. For handloading a person can have all the same components (except for brass obviously) and load what ever combination you want. The firearm choices is fairly restrictive too. Glock makes 2 models, E.A.A. imports the Tangfolio CZ-75 based Witness and that's about it for new guns that I can think of off the top of my head. I know they also make a 10mm version of the MP5 (that'd make me smile all day long to have one of those! [:D]) Of course, many of the older 10mm's can still be had. S&W made the 10xx series that the FBI used (namely the 1076) for several years until they decided to lower the recoil (and ultimately the case length and power). If you are a Colt fan (which if I recall you were majorly) they made the Delta Elite, Delta Gold Cup, the Government model, and a couple more if I recall.
Here's some great links if you truly want to learn more about them (I'll give it to ya even if you'll use the info to use against me later). [;)][:D]
http://www.bren-ten.com/main-site/id7.html
http://marina.fortunecity.com/harbour/347/10mm.html
http://www.geocities.com/mr_motorhead/10mminfo.html
I hope ya just got tired and not tired of me (defending my position)!
G'nite man.
Typos and profanity, oh my! http://www.funky-town.org
For instance, with the exception of my .44 mags the hardest shooting pistol I've had is a stupid (cheap) 9mm that I bought 15 years ago - and sold it within just a few weeks. I am not sure why to this day, but that thing would kick a fair amount, probably similiar to my 10mm but the muzzle flip was terrible. I swear sometimes I was looking down the barrel after a shot.
That said, I think the semi-auto SIG would be significantly lighter than a short-barreled revolver. The specs are relatively close on them, did you see the specs I posted above?
Typos and profanity, oh my! http://www.funky-town.org
BTW, the very best listing in the Shooter's Bibile is for each is:
.357 SIG
Speer 125 Gold Dot
velocity (fps) 1375
energy (ft-lb) 525
.357 Mag
Hornady 125 JHP/XTP
velocity (fps) 1500
energy (ft-lb) 624
As you can see, even on thier listings it is very competitive with the mag, but it isn't quite what it offers.
Typos and profanity, oh my! http://www.funky-town.org
As I posted in http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=68738 about guns that faded out that were superior to the ones that made it.
I don't know what I think about thier powRball ammo either. I'm intrigued, but not excited about it.
This might sound harsh, that honestly isn't how I mean it. I think the .45 ACP will VERY SLOWLY fade out of preference as the generation of men that used it and made it so popular, expire. No disrespect to anyone meant by that statement.
1: Ping-pong ball loaded to 4000fps[:D]
2: 45ACP JHP/JTC/JSP
3: 40 S&W JHP/JTC/JSP
4: 45 Colt SWC/LHP
5: 357 Mag JHP
6: 44 Special SWC/LHP
7: 44 Mag JHP
8: 9mm Luger JHP
9: 9mm Mak JHP
10: 380ACP JHP
Love them Beavers
SUPPORT THE I.N.S. , THE COUNTRY THEY SAVE COULD BE YOUR OWN
quote:I hope ya just got tired and not tired of me (defending my position)!
No Bud, defend on! There's just been more than a few long days & short nights for me.....
My most recent aquisition was a Tanfoglio-75 in 9mm (My 1st 9mm), and I think it's a great range gun, if it had a better chambering, I'd think about carrying it, so, in that light the 10mm might catch my attention, as would a Gov't Model.
The only real drawbacks I can foresee is:
I reload about 10 calibers now, until I actually get around to completing/setting up/building my reloading room, I don't want to further complicate my life with yet another caliber.
I don't regularly shoot all of my pistols no enough to say that I am proficient with all-another pistol would make that worse.
I like the .45ACP, I have .45ACP brass coming out of my ears. Same with my other cartridges, except for .357 & .38......
I can't afford a new-to-me pistol for about another 6 months.
Boy, that's a long list of really weak excuses to not buy another gun[B)][:0]...maybe my wife has been playing some kinda subliminal tape while I've been snoozin'?????[:(!]
Reserving my Right to Arm Bears!!!!
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Handgun Control, Inc. says they want to "Keep guns out of the wrong hands."
Guess what?
You have the wrong hands.
What would you rather be hit with, a hypodermic needle traveling at 1000 mph, or a golf ball traveling at 100 mph?
The 9 mm would be like the first one, and whatever it hits may not show the effects as fast as the shooter would desire. The 45 is like the golf ball, bigger, and moving slower. When it hits something that something usually knows it has been hit, and stays hit!
Trinity +++
"Train up a child in the way he should go, even when he is old he will not depart from it."(Proverbs 22:6)
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