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Tell me about the branch davidains
Marksmen
Member Posts: 689 ✭✭✭✭
Ive been hearing that they were falsly accused of haveing illegal weapons by the ATF which sparked the whole standoff(like Ruby Ridge), and ive been told that they were an radical evil colt that brainwashed kids. Which one is true? Is it a mixture of both?
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I don't have an anger problem. I have an idiot problem. Hank Hill
When I was a child, I thought as a child. But now that I am grown, I just wish I could act like a child and get away with it.
Love them Beavers
SUPPORT THE I.N.S. , THE COUNTRY THEY SAVE COULD BE YOUR OWN
The "50 caliber machinegun" that all were so concerned about was a semi-auto Barrett rifle, legally bought from a fellow gun dealer I know.
Evil cult "brainwashing" kids??? Heck, the Baptists do that by having their kids memorize verses of the Bible. The Dividians could be classified as religious nuts, but you still have the right to be a nut in this country so long as you don't violate the law or someone else's rights.
Religion = cult
Home = compound
Buzz words coined by the authorities to program public thinking into accepting the treatment the Dividians were receiving.
In my opinion, what happened at Waco, like Ruby Ridge, was a sad chapter in American history.
My humble 2-cents worth,
Rafter-S
"What is truth? No wonder jesting Pilate turned away. The truth, it has a thousand faces -- show only one of them, and the whole truth flies away! But how to show the whole? That is the question."
--Thomas Wolfe, "You Can't Go Home Again" (1934)
Love them Beavers
SUPPORT THE I.N.S. , THE COUNTRY THEY SAVE COULD BE YOUR OWN
Only the strong shall survive !!!
God,Guts,& GunsHave we lost all 3 ??
Remember Ruby Ridge.
include the poster's name in my C&P..but Thank You!))
It's definitely worth a re-visit.
America's Saddam
Jack Wheeler
Thrusday, September 19, 2002
In light of Janet Reno's concession of defeat in Florida's primary elections, and as an addendum to Chris Ruddy and Carl Limbacher's current bestseller "Catastrophe," America needs to remember the horrific evil perpetrated by then-Attorney General Reno in the first months of the Clinton presidency.
In March of 1993, I was the keynote speaker at a conference of business and civic leaders held in Indianapolis. One of those attending was a federal judge named Joe (it's best not to mention his last name). He seemed a nice, decent fellow who not once hinted that (as I had been informed by the organizer of the conference) he was on the short list of candidates to be the new Director of the FBI. The current FBI Director, William Sessions, had announced his attention to resign as soon as the recently-inaugurated Bill Clinton found a replacement. Joe and I sat together at lunch and the conversation was pleasant - until someone at the table brought up Waco.
The ATF had assaulted the Davidian church complex a month earlier, and the standoff was ensuing with the final holocaust a month away. When I asked Joe what he thought of what was going on at Waco, his entire demeanor and body language changed, his face turned purple with rage, and he announced: "I'll tell you what the FBI should do. Those people [the Davidians] killed Federal Agents. We should go in there and kill every last one of them."
Someone responded, "There are children in there, Joe." Joe brushed the comment aside with a wave of his hand. "You don't understand. No one can get away with killing Federal Agents. They all deserve to be killed in return."
Joe was passed over in favor of Louis Freeh, but he exemplified the mindset not just of the FBI but of so many in law enforcement in general. As anyone who has made the mistake of arguing with a police officer giving them a traffic ticket understands, the most heinous crime anyone can commit, more evil and depraved than child molestation, is Contempt of Cop.
You know the joke: a conservative is a liberal who's been mugged; a liberal is a conservative who's been arrested. Smart-mouth a cop and you're asking for a world of grief. Fight back and defend yourself from police action, no matter what the action is, and your life is in danger.
This is what happened at Waco. The Davidians tried to defend themselves from an armed ATF raid, set up as a pure publicity stunt to better argue for increased funding. That the raid had a flimsy pretext and was botched was irrelevant to the Federal law enforcement community, however. No matter how and why, Federal Agents were killed and revenge had to be taken. The FBI man in charge of the siege and final death raid of April 19, Richard Rogers, thought exactly like Joe.
It is important to grasp that what happened in Waco was no accident, that the Davidians were killed on purpose in an act of revenge by the American government. And it is important to know just how they were killed, that the method of their killing was as grisly and evil as anything perpetrated by Saddam Hussein.
On the morning of April 19, 1993, the FBI smashed holes into the Davidian church complex, and began pumping in a chemical warfare agent known as CS (o-chlorobenzylidenemalononitrile). It is a solid in the form of white crystals. The FBI dissolved the CS powder in an organic solvent so they could liquid spray it in to the buildings. A lot of attention has been paid to the horror of CS, but not much on the solvent.
It's called methylene chloride, MC. Ever bought paint remover and noticed the label warning to use it "only in a well-ventilated area"? That's because it contains MC. The effects of MC are exactly the same as those of chloroform if you use twice as much of it. When a person breathes MC (or chloroform at half the concentration) vapor he or she first becomes irritable. Second, they lose their coordination and judgement, while their vision becomes blurred. Third, they become paranoid and hyper-excitable. Fourth, they experience auditory and visual hallucinations. Fifth, they lapse into muscular paralysis and unconsciousness.
It is this fifth stage that caused surgeons to use chloroform as the first anesthetic in the 19th century. But doctors switched to ether because of uncontrollable behavior of the patients going through the first four stages - and because of a last sixth stage. If you use only about two times as much chloroform as it takes to render someone unconscious, the patient suffers respiratory paralysis, stops breathing, and dies. It is the same with MC.
The FBI cut off the electricity to the Davidians and knew all they had for light were kerosene lamps. Yet they sprayed into their buildings hundreds of pounds of methylene chloride which makes people stumble around like they're drunk with no coordination, with blurry vision, hallucinating and excitable: A guarantee that kerosene lamps would be knocked over and fires started.
In the presence of fire, MC vapor decomposes into hydrogen chloride, which has the same effect on any moisture-laden area of the body as sulfur mustard gas used in World War I: excruciating searing pain in the eyes, the mucous lining of the nose, and the lungs. Remember that the FBI used MC as a solvent to dissolve CS crystals. It turns out that when CS is burned, it produces hydrogen cyanide, the same gas used to execute prisoners on Death Row.
During the Iran-Iraq war, Saddam Hussein discovered the most lethal chemical warfare agent was a combination of sulfur mustard gas with hydrogen cyanide, which he used in artillery shells to slaughter thousands of Iranians. It was in effect this same combination that the FBI used to slaughter 87 men, women, and children in Waco.
The question is: who authorized the CS/MC combination? CS is not normally dissolved into a solution. Who knew about MC and could order it to be a solvent for CS? Sit down, folks, and hold on tight: Janet Reno has a Bachelor of Science Degree in Chemistry from Cornell University. Cornell has a very good chemistry department. MC is used as an organic solvent for many experiments. There is no question Reno would be very familiar with it, and was informed of its dangers by her professors. Janet Reno is America's Saddam Hussein.
Congressman Bob Barr (R-GA) has a coroner's photograph taken of one of the Davidian victims entitled "Doe #57." It is of a little girl around five or six years old, her charred body burned beyond recognition and twisted in the ghastly rictus contortion typical of subjection to hydrogen cyanide.
There are few more monstrous crimes against humanity than torturing children to death in screaming pain, poison gassing them to death on purpose. That the perpetrator of this crime wasn't tried and executed for mass homicide, but was instead lionized by the media, served out her term of office, and came close to being elected as the Democrat nominee for the Governor of Florida, says something very dark about human nature.
The slaughter of American citizens by their government at Waco was dismissed by many Americans because the people killed were "just cultists" -- like Germans who excused Nazi pogroms because the people killed were "just Jews." As America comes to grips with the danger and evil of Saddam Hussein, and gets ready to extinguish it, America also needs to come to grips with the evil it condoned at Waco.
America condoned a vast amount of depravity during the Clinton years. Yet the depravity of Waco was the worst of all. Unless expunged through public revulsion of Janet Reno, it will remain an ineradicable stain on America's soul.
ccopyright 2002 Dr. Jack Wheeler and the Freedom Research Foundation
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/9/18/205402.shtml
"If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
He had tried to reach enlightenment via the book of Revelations; specifically, the "End Times" portion that describes a series of seals that must be opened in order to achieve Oneness with the Holy Spirit.
He was charismatic, genuine, a bit obsessed with the capabilities of firearms, and was accused of: Child Abuse, then Manufacture of Illegal Weapons, Manufacture of Amphetamines, and finally, Murder of Federal Agents.
Koresh and all his followers were then sentenced to death by the Feds, and they carried out the sentence with finality. They then destroyed key evidence of wrongdoing (by the Feds), by stealing the front door, bulldozing the church, and not allowing firefighters to help for over 3 hours while everyone burned to death.
The Feds then withheld evidence, lied to the Courts, denied bail to the survivors, and pretty much screwed the pooch of jurisprudence.
Read the Soldier of Fortune back issues about this whole tragedy, James Pate and another guy have done an excellent job of discovering EXACTLY what happened before, during, and after. They even debunk the wackos that did that video. VERY informative as to the motives of the Gov't @%$holes that perpetrated this travesty of justice.
If you know it all; you must have been listening.WEAR EAR PROTECTION!
The slaughter of American citizens by their government at Waco was dismissed by many Americans because the people killed were "just cultists" -- like Germans who excused Nazi pogroms because the people killed were "just Jews."
Consider:
The Government agents had been monitoring Mr. Koresh for months prior to the Waco holocaust.
They watched as he frequented local bars.
And gave testimony stating he regularly played his music
at the same establishments.
The Government even had an "informer" within the "compound" (their word) who urged restraint.
Simply one question:
What urgency necessitated this despicable action?
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14484&SearchTerms=lest,we,forget
www.washingtonstatemilitia.com
Politicians are like diapers, every so often you need to change them, for obvious reasons.
Trusting in
the illusion
we like to call
Freedom.
Or is it
Liberty.
It is the Law.
And the Law is Good.
That includes myself, I am partially responsible for doing NOTHING.
If one Army Apache would of came in and took the tank out, fired some straffing fire to get the ATF to move out....Many Americans would be alive today.....The one guy that did make the call to protect them would of thrown his life away.....he would of been quickly killed and labeled a madman....
The A-10 that 'crashed into the Rockies over 800 miles off course'....is a perfect example of a coverup to keep face.
"He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one."
- Jesus Christ in Luke 22:36
faldum, just a thought,have you noticed that there ALWAYS seems to be a low budget movie about these kinds of things afterward? and we know the "content" usually makes their case,with disturbing results...the "sheep" believe what they see....It might ne interesting to see what all these films have in commomn? Just a thought.....L.H.
Was top of the crop and was a die hard American with no known problems.
The A-10 formation was 3 aircraft, he broke off for parts unknown. 800 miles later (an A-10 is not fast, would of taken awhile to fly that far) he 'crashed' into the Rockies. Witnesses saw the aircraft flying at the deck, going over rolling terrain which required pilot input-he was in control, his load of bombs were not on the crash site which means he dumped them as he tried to avoid his persuars. They are still not found.
He had a goal, but an ill thought out plan allowed him to be intercepted. Witnesses have claimed to of seen the incident but quickly changed their story....for unkown reasons.
"He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one."
- Jesus Christ in Luke 22:36
And at Ruby Ridge I dont beleive that an expert police sniper could "accidentally" shoot an unarmed mother.
What was the A-10 pilots goal???
Find it and watch for yourself.
God,Guts,& GunsHave we lost all 3 ??
Tune in next time for the account of Ruby Ridge. Another illegitimate F up by our government.
All it takes for evil to prevail is that good men do nothing.
For the first time a civilized nation has full gun registration; the streets are safer, the police are more effective, and the rest of the world will follow us into history--Hitler 1937
Trust me what happened was not right, submit or subject[?]
"I know Everything because
my Wife is a Hair Stylist"
To err is human, to moo is bovine.
<<Where were we? The American people who souldve been there to help, where were we?>>
We were being lied to, told untrue tales of horror about what the Davidians were doing and had done. Just listening to the news it would have been hard to find supporters for the group. It was only after the killings that the truth started to come out. That is a big problem with trying to understand what is happening today, we have been lied to so much that it is almost impossible to choose what to believe and what not to. When the government and the press knowingly lie, what is left to protect liberty. How can one find out who the enemy is when obfuscated by lies.
For all you military folks that have been in atleast 10 years, remember the militia briefings we used to get? We used to have Air Force Special Agents brief us on local militia group threats, just before all of this. We don't get those briefings anymore in the States.
"He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one."
- Jesus Christ in Luke 22:36
"Save the Whalers, they need jobs too."
We have enough trouble keeping track of the crazies outside of the US.....when the jack booted thugs show up outside your door let us know about it. Beach
I wish I could see the world from your planet.
The Govt. would of been better off putting a larger radius around the house and starving them out instead of attacking. The children snapped their own backs from the gas they were subject to, then laying there paralyzed they burned to death. I'd take an * reaming to that anyday.
"He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one."
- Jesus Christ in Luke 22:36
Oh yeah I've always thought of myself as a responsible member of the planet earth but perhaps I was abducted by aliens and am now on another planet...you see I think it would have just been too easy to say, "Come on in..We have no machine guns..We have nothing that's really illegal...please check out what we have and then go away so that our leader can get back to banging the little girls." The feds could have gone in either found something or not. With the amount of press there Koresh could have had a field day showing them and the feds the relative innocence of his cult(just as long as they didn't interview any of the 12 year old girls). We will never see eye to eye on this one but I'd like you to know that there are good Americans out here who really think that Koresh and his Krazies had great personal responsibility for the deaths of the children. Beach
http://www.fountain.btinternet.co.uk/koresh/
If the Feds really had evidence Koresh was banging children, they would have popped him for that rather than some trumped-up weapons charge.
Last I heard, if anyone, or any group, wants to listen to a crazy religious fanatic and practice that religion, it's protected under the Bill of Rights.
To err is human, to moo is bovine.
Politicians are like diapers, every so often you need to change them, for obvious reasons.
Read faldum's post. He did not make that up.
Do you mean to suggest Beach that there can't be any renegades in Fed LE because you personally were never asked to take action against our own citizens?
If the FBI and ATF were not culpable in any way, why did they destroy evidence? There is absolutely no question whatsoever that they did destroy and conceal evidence.
It is difficult for me to understand how anyone who examines the evidence could fail to come to the conclusion that renegade morons in the BATF initiated the original raid to pump their own careers. They chose a show of paramilitary force against civilians when they could have easily arrested Koresh on the streets of Waco. Why? They falsely portrayed the Davidians as dangerous criminal wackos, intentionally misled their own officers and sent them into danger, and when it blew up, they lied again to their superiors about what had occurred. Enraged by the casualties suffered by fellow law enforcement officers, their superiors made a serious of stupendous blunders which aggravated the situation and brought tremendous pressure on themselves to resolve the situation, which they did in a horrifying conflagration. They plainly felt that the fact that officers lost their lives in the initial attack justified anything they did. They made themselves judge, jury and executioners. And then they concealed their own criminality as best they could.
No evidence was ever presented to support the clams that the Davidians committed a single federal or state firearms offense. The BATF has claimed it has evidence in the form of unlawful weapons, but they have never permitted any independent examination of this evidence. Why? The officers sent to the Davidians home and church didn't even have a search warrant or arrest warrant with them. The warrant was later determined to be unsupported by the evidence on which it was supposedly based.
Don't give me that "it can't happen here" crap. It has happened here, and more than once. The tragedy at Ruby Ridge was also largely the responsibility of a renegade moron in the BATF looking to pump his carreer, and lying to fellow officers without regard to the possible consequences. Didn't you see that miserable cretin's testimony before congressional investigators? He actually testified, before God and the world, that pages of lies in his report, in which he falsely described Weaver as a suspect in serious crimes and dangerous threat, as "typographical error"! Again, superior officers overreacted, caused the death of innocents, and then attempted to cover up their wrongdoing. Who gave the "shoot to kill" order there? We'll never know for certain Beach, because the lyng bast***s responsible destroyed the evidence.
It does happen here, on a much smaller scale, every go***mn day. Police officers, for whatever reasons, engage in unlawful arrests and the use of excessive force every day. In a country this large it is inevitable, but that does not make it right. Some officers who do wrong are just having a bad day, but some are simply unfit to do the difficult job of law enforcement, they are dangerous, they are a blot on good professional law enforcement officers everywhere, and we have to weed them out at every opportunity.
Don't believe me? I have personal knowledge of an excessive force incident that occurred near here in the past month. There is no doubt that one of the officers, admittedly provoked verbally, lost his temper and brutally beat an obnoxious, but non-threatening drunk. A second officer maced the victim. A third shot the the semi-concious man in the back with a taser while he lay helpless on the ground, and tased him three times. According to witnesses, he only stopped when a witness, standing on his own porch, told him if he shocked the man again he was calling 911, himself, on the officers. I personally spoke to witnesses; I personally spoke to the victim and saw his cuts and bruises, including the two probe wounds in his back. Both the victim and his father allege that at the police station, officers refused the request of ambulance personnel to transport the victim to the hospital for treatment. They knew exactly what they had done, and they didn't want any hospital records as evidence.
I have in my possession jail security video tape of an officer taking a cuffed prisoner off camera, and bringing him back on camera moments later obviously in great pain and with a new * injury. I personally spoke to the victim later, and saw the cuts and bruises, including the injuries around his wrists from the handcuffs. The officer was angry because he was compalining about overly tight hadcuffs, and had managed to bring his cuffed hands around his legs to the front of his body from the back. Off camera he was slammed into a wall and beaten in the lower back. It does happen.
Don't tell me this stuff doesn't happen Beach. We have some of the best law enforcement in the world here, but they are not perfect, and some of them do wrong. In the case of the Davidians, it ended in a horrific catastrophe of which we should all be ashamed.
redcedars
Its funny. In the book Eric was quized by a doc. and the doc. asked him how would he take care if this threat in USA. Eric answered he would enter the building here, etc. but the doc. said "wrong, because of the campus polonus(im guessing what it was called) act you cant preform military operation in the USA".
Folks, remember if it happened to them it can happen to you and your loved ones. These people and groups, the Weavers and the Davidians, etc., were demonized, isolated, and propagandized with fear by the government to such an extent that the mothers and grandmothers of America were convinced that murdering innocent women and children (I'm sorry they were collateral damage) was justified to stop alledged child abuse and to end the possibility of Randy Weaver and David Krazyeth from running through their neighborhoods with machineguns blazing.
The government had a statement to make to it's citizens and had the perfect scapegoats on hand to make an example out of and Mr. & Mrs. America sat by like sheep as the government expected. How many of us called, wrote or spoke directly to our representatives in Washington in outrage about Ruby Ridge and Waco? Very few of us did.............good men and women just stood by[:(].
For the record, I feel the Davidians were nuts and Weaver was stupid but does that justify killing women and children and innocent assoiciates?
Pack slow, fall stable, pull high, hit dead center.<BR>
We probably won't know all that happened at Waco but I will desist out of respect for all of you from from stirring this particular pot any more. Beach