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Beach,you make valid points as I said earlier.We all come from different walks of life here on the forum and who knows what some of us have or have not witnessed.I agree to disagree with you sir,and thus leave our mutual respect intact(Yes)? I hope we never see another tradgedy like this regardless of WHO was to blame......we were taught to defend the woman and children,at all costs....Maybe the world has changed....around us.....sigh...L.H.
Beach, stir away buddy, I take no offense! From your posts on these boards, I like and respect you. Sometimes we disagree, no big deal.
Say your say, and I will say mine, other folks will say theirs, and hopefully we will all learn something in the process.
Despite all of our flaws as a country and a society, I proudly believe we are the greatest nation this world has ever seen. Our system of government is built on some of best understanding of human nature and institutional behavior in history, and on fundamental values in which virtually all of us believe. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness...."
We are changing the world by example. Many people around the world are demanding more freedom for themselves and more accountability from their governments because of the example we set. They see our freedom and our prosperity and they want the same things.
In many countries of the world you and I would not be free to engage in this conversation, or to dare to question the actions of government agents. In many countries tradegies such as Waco and Ruby Ridge would be a blip on the screen.
If we are to preserve these values and our society, we must be prepared to challenge those who abuse governmental authority and power. Sometimes we do so only belatedly and in response to tragic events. But we have already seen that part of the legacy of Waco and Ruby Ridge is far greater scrutiny of the conduct of the agencies involved in those tragedies. Several potentially ugly incidents since have been resolved peacefully as a result.
Can't keep a secret ? What crap.
The U.S.S. Liberty...Israily aircraft bombed and straffed swimming men ..for an hour ...1967.
The men sworn to secrecy,dispersed throughout the fleet...for 20 years,not allowed to talk about it.
Tukeege 'experiments' Black men being 'treated' for syphilis..in reality,nothing at all being done except monitoring the course of the disese..secret kept for 30 years..by your beloved fedgov men...
Years and Years ago, almost anybody could own a fully automatic Thompson submachinegun, BARs. Now if you are even rumored to have a 16 inch barreled rifle, the FBI, ATF, raid your house and stick fully automatic submachine guns to your head. "Theyve got what it takes, to take what you got"
So if a SWAT team raids the wrong house, and you fire at them and kill one of them, are you going to jail, or were your actions justified? Or will they kill you on the spot?
Read 'Unintended Consequences'. The ATF guys mostly shot each other!
It will give you some good insite into Waco and Ruby Ridge, as well as the veterans shot at and run over by Major George Patton, and Major Dwight Eisenhower in 1932 outside of Washington DC. By the way, those who survived the tanks and gun fire and calvary, were burned out by General Douglas McArthur.
These crooks and criminals being killed were our WWl veterns, trying to get their pensions, with a peaceful demonstration and NO WEAPONS
At the time, the Vets were in Hoover Houses (small, drafty wall tents), eating Hoover Hogs( armadillos, possum, nutria, rats), and seeking their due for fighting to keep the World free. The military and DC cops were called upon to shoo their brethren from the area so the Prez could look out the window without having to see the desperation and hopelessness epitomized by War Heros begging for food and medical care.
Beach, you might want to skip to the next post, or risk heartburn on this one.
Delta operators WERE at Waco; deployed there ostensibly for some "specialized liaison" with the Feds and the local Rangers on how to take down a compound suspected to contain HazMat fom a drug-manufacturing operation.
Bingo & boingo from the Fbi had decided that they needed a helicopter for the assault phase, and since choppers in Waco are about as likely a find as Virgins in Bangkok; they needed something plausible enough that Justice wouldn't freak out & ask why, and so they involved the military in training and law enforcement in-country, which goes against the Posse Comitatus Act.
The Fbi also had Chuck Sarabyn (ASAIC) at Ruby Ridge, OKC, and recently at TTT looking for "evidence". There are published reports out that have said he was retired early for health reasons; maybe the "get out and you'll stay healthy" kinda reasons.
Louis Freeh had a hard time before Congress trying to make his guys look good in the aftermath of those incidents, that's why he's no longer there.
So many false charges were brought against the Davidians that the District Court had asked the Fbi guys asking for warrants, etc. if they knew that there were a bunch of religious types out there. The Fbi folk said THAT'S why they gotta get in!
I hope I'm not painting with too broad a brush; but I don't trust anyone outside the Mayors' office, and I'm not too sure about him.
If you know it all; you must have been listening.WEAR EAR PROTECTION!
You can always count on the fact that most will always assume that the governments side of the story is true. There is a mountain of evidence which suggests that not only did the government act in haste with respect to the Davidian massacre, but that they also murdered the Davidians.
Mountains of evidence that contradicts the governments version-vs-"the government SAYS they did no wrong"-"the people" will choose the "the government did no wrong, cause the government said they did no wrong" version.
7mm raised an important point about the alleged child abuse-this is not a federal issue, yet during the standoff Reno and her cronies could nt stop talking about the child abuse angle. The feds were doing it "for the children" of waco. I remmeber one of the feds spokespersons saying they sent the tear gas in, figuring it would trigger a maternal instinct in the mothers at Waco, which would cause the moms to send their children out. So the ones who care so much "for the children" used the children as pawns to make the parents come out-This is how much the government cares for the children.
The tear gas rounds, which WERE NOT incindiary rounds, well at least they werent incindiary until a few years ago, when, after enough time elapsed so that no one would care anymore, the government admitted they were incindiary(but that was just an honest mistake I am sure), created a gas(when combined with other elements at the home of the davidians), arsenic I believe, that is the same type that is used in executions- this gas causes muscle spasms so severe, that bones break, and upper and lower torsos will turn in opposite directions.
I do not care to argue whetehr or not the government was right or wrong with repsect to the Davidians-the evidence CLEARLY suggests that the government murdered the Davidians. But the reality is that most people will ignore evidence and just assume the governments version of events.
Oh-and I thought the raising of the ATF flag on the Davidians flagpole, as their home was burning, as children were burning, as firetrucks were being turned around and prevented from saving the evidence, uhh I mean the people and Davidians home-well that was a nice touch.
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once"
-David Hume
I saw footage of a SWAT team or some team trying to raid the house from the snd floor and someone said on the phone "get back, i have the right to defend myself" and started shooting through the wall and actually hit one guy. Are you even supposed to raid a house with so many men, women and children inside? Or are they considered collateral damage, as long as you get the leader?
I hate when the government denies everything even when the evidence is right in front of thier faces. Well thats the Clinton Adim. for ya.
Some ATF bird, still on the roof, threw a concussion grenade into the room where three agents had just entered. Other agents had entered an adjoining room. A National Guard helicopter was shooting at the roof above them. When the grenade exploded, the three agents just inside began firing. They were using 9mm Cyclone rounds. Little razor blades. The agents in the adjoining room thought the first group had located Koresh. Wrong. Three Dividians were headed up the stairs, with Norinco .223 and AR-15's. Reportedly, one fragment of a .223 wounded an agent. One Dividian took a shot in the thigh and dropped out of the firefight, leaving two with poor ammo.
In general, the ATF guys killed themselves. One fragment from a Dividian round caused an injury.
From the film footage of the outside, no shots were fired at the agents pounding the building. No bullet holes, broken windows, or puffs of dust in the dirt between the building and the agents and their cars.
Then, they called in the FBI, as I recall.
Cyclone rounds are basically steel-cored hollowpoints. The edge of the hollowed-out point is exposed steel, sharpened to a chisel-ground edge; this steel portion runs the length of the projectile as well. These rounds are -specifically- designed to defeat soft body armor and are, as such, illegal for regular peons such as ourselves to posess.
Stand up and fight, or lie down and die; for it is better to burn than to ever fade away.
Originally for air to air combat in 20mm, hardened steel tube with a razor sharp leading edge. Dosn't glance off metal, or much of anything else.
Then, a few were made in 9mm and nicknamed Cyclone by the few who used them.
salzo...insightful comments...I don't believe that arsenic can be created from an incindary and CS gas but am not sure about its effect on some types of hazmat that may have been present in the Davidian compound. I'll try to make my self smart on that one because if true it might lend some credance to what others have said on here contrary to my views. Do we have a real NBC warfare expert out there who could help? I know that combustion(fire and heat) around calcium hypercloride(used in water purification systems which Koresh may have had) can create Chlorine gas which can be fatal. Beach
quote:Originally posted by Highball
They were called 'Bonus Marchers',I believe...peaceable camped up in Washington,trying to get the fedgov promises of bonuses from WW1...
until what Spiny said happened..This was in the Depression,desperate men trying to feed their familys.... http://www.worldwar1.com/dbc/bonusm.htm http://www.factmonster.com/ce6/history/A0808279.html
God,Guts,& Guns<BR>Have we lost all 3 ??<BR>
So much for the gov.'t troops and police not attacking their own if ordered to eh?[V]
Just for grins which party did you all vote for in the last sixteen years.Do you know who appointed the judges on the soupreme court?No i did not miss spell the souppreme court.It seems to me that if you have the judges in your rear pocket ,the jury has no say.If you sleep with vipers your bound to get bit, someday.
I ashamed at what govn. did (Redceaders). We didn't call our Rep. (Gunpaq) and the govn. is good (Beachmaster).
Reno should be hung and all the high ups involved who are of the kill im type who were involved in the murders.
If Joe Sixpack did anything near this he would be on death roe or gone by now, why should the Feds. be not held liable in wrongful death(because they make 85 grand a year to serve us)?
Comments
Say your say, and I will say mine, other folks will say theirs, and hopefully we will all learn something in the process.
Despite all of our flaws as a country and a society, I proudly believe we are the greatest nation this world has ever seen. Our system of government is built on some of best understanding of human nature and institutional behavior in history, and on fundamental values in which virtually all of us believe. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness...."
We are changing the world by example. Many people around the world are demanding more freedom for themselves and more accountability from their governments because of the example we set. They see our freedom and our prosperity and they want the same things.
In many countries of the world you and I would not be free to engage in this conversation, or to dare to question the actions of government agents. In many countries tradegies such as Waco and Ruby Ridge would be a blip on the screen.
If we are to preserve these values and our society, we must be prepared to challenge those who abuse governmental authority and power. Sometimes we do so only belatedly and in response to tragic events. But we have already seen that part of the legacy of Waco and Ruby Ridge is far greater scrutiny of the conduct of the agencies involved in those tragedies. Several potentially ugly incidents since have been resolved peacefully as a result.
redcedars
The U.S.S. Liberty...Israily aircraft bombed and straffed swimming men ..for an hour ...1967.
The men sworn to secrecy,dispersed throughout the fleet...for 20 years,not allowed to talk about it.
Tukeege 'experiments' Black men being 'treated' for syphilis..in reality,nothing at all being done except monitoring the course of the disese..secret kept for 30 years..by your beloved fedgov men...
Feeding C*** only works on the uninformed.....
God,Guts,& GunsHave we lost all 3 ??
"He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one."
- Jesus Christ in Luke 22:36
1.You will most likely be killed on the spot.A correct solution,according to the elite amongst us.
2.You were defending your home..justifiable killing..to those of us who believe there is no place in a free country for swat teams.
God,Guts,& GunsHave we lost all 3 ??
It will give you some good insite into Waco and Ruby Ridge, as well as the veterans shot at and run over by Major George Patton, and Major Dwight Eisenhower in 1932 outside of Washington DC. By the way, those who survived the tanks and gun fire and calvary, were burned out by General Douglas McArthur.
These crooks and criminals being killed were our WWl veterns, trying to get their pensions, with a peaceful demonstration and NO WEAPONS
spiny
'not all who wander are lost'
Pack slow, fall stable, pull high, hit dead center.<BR>
until what Spiny said happened..This was in the Depression,desperate men trying to feed their familys....
http://www.worldwar1.com/dbc/bonusm.htm
http://www.factmonster.com/ce6/history/A0808279.html
God,Guts,& Guns<BR>Have we lost all 3 ??<BR>
Beach, you might want to skip to the next post, or risk heartburn on this one.
Delta operators WERE at Waco; deployed there ostensibly for some "specialized liaison" with the Feds and the local Rangers on how to take down a compound suspected to contain HazMat fom a drug-manufacturing operation.
Bingo & boingo from the Fbi had decided that they needed a helicopter for the assault phase, and since choppers in Waco are about as likely a find as Virgins in Bangkok; they needed something plausible enough that Justice wouldn't freak out & ask why, and so they involved the military in training and law enforcement in-country, which goes against the Posse Comitatus Act.
The Fbi also had Chuck Sarabyn (ASAIC) at Ruby Ridge, OKC, and recently at TTT looking for "evidence". There are published reports out that have said he was retired early for health reasons; maybe the "get out and you'll stay healthy" kinda reasons.
Louis Freeh had a hard time before Congress trying to make his guys look good in the aftermath of those incidents, that's why he's no longer there.
So many false charges were brought against the Davidians that the District Court had asked the Fbi guys asking for warrants, etc. if they knew that there were a bunch of religious types out there. The Fbi folk said THAT'S why they gotta get in!
I hope I'm not painting with too broad a brush; but I don't trust anyone outside the Mayors' office, and I'm not too sure about him.
If you know it all; you must have been listening.WEAR EAR PROTECTION!
Only the strong shall survive !!!
Mountains of evidence that contradicts the governments version-vs-"the government SAYS they did no wrong"-"the people" will choose the "the government did no wrong, cause the government said they did no wrong" version.
7mm raised an important point about the alleged child abuse-this is not a federal issue, yet during the standoff Reno and her cronies could nt stop talking about the child abuse angle. The feds were doing it "for the children" of waco. I remmeber one of the feds spokespersons saying they sent the tear gas in, figuring it would trigger a maternal instinct in the mothers at Waco, which would cause the moms to send their children out. So the ones who care so much "for the children" used the children as pawns to make the parents come out-This is how much the government cares for the children.
The tear gas rounds, which WERE NOT incindiary rounds, well at least they werent incindiary until a few years ago, when, after enough time elapsed so that no one would care anymore, the government admitted they were incindiary(but that was just an honest mistake I am sure), created a gas(when combined with other elements at the home of the davidians), arsenic I believe, that is the same type that is used in executions- this gas causes muscle spasms so severe, that bones break, and upper and lower torsos will turn in opposite directions.
I do not care to argue whetehr or not the government was right or wrong with repsect to the Davidians-the evidence CLEARLY suggests that the government murdered the Davidians. But the reality is that most people will ignore evidence and just assume the governments version of events.
Oh-and I thought the raising of the ATF flag on the Davidians flagpole, as their home was burning, as children were burning, as firetrucks were being turned around and prevented from saving the evidence, uhh I mean the people and Davidians home-well that was a nice touch.
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once"
-David Hume
I hate when the government denies everything even when the evidence is right in front of thier faces. Well thats the Clinton Adim. for ya.
In general, the ATF guys killed themselves. One fragment from a Dividian round caused an injury.
From the film footage of the outside, no shots were fired at the agents pounding the building. No bullet holes, broken windows, or puffs of dust in the dirt between the building and the agents and their cars.
Then, they called in the FBI, as I recall.
spiny
'not all who wander are lost'
Stand up and fight, or lie down and die; for it is better to burn than to ever fade away.
Then, a few were made in 9mm and nicknamed Cyclone by the few who used them.
spiny
'not all who wander are lost'
The gas in question was hydrogen cyanide, a byproduct of the combustion of the CS.
redcedars
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once"
-David Hume
They were called 'Bonus Marchers',I believe...peaceable camped up in Washington,trying to get the fedgov promises of bonuses from WW1...
until what Spiny said happened..This was in the Depression,desperate men trying to feed their familys....
http://www.worldwar1.com/dbc/bonusm.htm
http://www.factmonster.com/ce6/history/A0808279.html
God,Guts,& Guns<BR>Have we lost all 3 ??<BR>
So much for the gov.'t troops and police not attacking their own if ordered to eh?[V]
Imagine the arrogance of this man and his expectations that his permit would be respected:
www.awrm.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=26;t=000297
www.washingtonstatemilitia.com
Reno should be hung and all the high ups involved who are of the kill im type who were involved in the murders.
If Joe Sixpack did anything near this he would be on death roe or gone by now, why should the Feds. be not held liable in wrongful death(because they make 85 grand a year to serve us)?
Mis-lead
I think this treads been around longer than I have.
You all have already decided where you stand on this issue.
Let's not let it happen again!
Only the strong shall survive !!!