In order to participate in the GunBroker Member forums, you must be logged in with your GunBroker.com account. Click the sign-in button at the top right of the forums page to get connected.
quote:Originally posted by tneff1969
Get a damn room, hug each other. The sky is blue, not green like my neighbor says. Who cares, they are all idiots playing with a big gun.
quote:Originally posted by Rosie
Sorry Danny but you are wrong on this one. Look at some of the old single actions. The front sight is much higher than it should be. there is a reason for that. Trust me. When the bullet starts to move the gun starts to move at the same instant. Remember that for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction. A comp works because the bullet is moving much faster than the gun therefore it reaches the comp before the gun moves back very far and the gas jet pulls the gun forward to an extent reducing backward movement of the gun. And you guys thought I was just a pretty face! [:D]
Rosie,
Have you ever lasered the barrel to the sights? They are not higher, they just look it because of the receiver strap and the rear sight height against the barrelt taper.
The movement is "insignificant" and is held by kenetic force formed by holding the gun and it's weight. The movement referred to as recoil is after the bullet leaves.
Secondary Recoil
There are actually two distinct recoils from a gun: the first, primary recoil, which I've described above, conserves momentum of the gun-bullet system. However, a larger secondary recoil comes slightly later, when the bullet leaves the muzzle: then the hot expanding gas behind the bullet shoots out of the muzzle, and the muzzle recoils further like a rocket. This is, again, conservation of momentum, but in this case is is the gas momentum out of the barrel that makes the secondary recoil. Gun manufacturers make baffles that reduce the flow of gas out of the muzzle to reduce secondary recoil. Primary recoil cannot be reduced, since it is simply associated with the forward momentum of the bullet.
Summary
The total momentum of a system is conserved if there are no outside forces acting on it.
Gun recoil results from conservation of total momentum of the bullet-gun system: the backward recoil gun momentum balances the forward bullet momentum to maintain zero total momentum.
Gun recoil actually has two parts: primary recoil from the escaping bullet and secondary recoil from the escaping gas behind the bullet.
quote:Originally posted by iceracerx
quote:Originally posted by dheffley
Perry, the movement of the gun at detonation until bullet exit is insignificant, and recoil as we know it starts at exit. I doubt you could measure more than .001" movement, if fired out of a vice, until the bullet exits, if that. Human hands and flench do make some movement.
Dan, ANY movement opposite the travel of the bullet is RECOIL. It doesn't matter how small the movement. And why do you use the example of a vice? Why not make the firearm free moving?
The gas pressure is exerting EQUAL pressure on the bullet and firearm when the bullet is in the barrel. The fact that there is a huge difference in mass doesn't negate the fact that there has to be movement opposite the bullet.
Last reply.
The weight of the gun, and the force of holding it forms some resistance. I'm talking about movement of the gun due to internal forces, not hammer strick or barrel whip, which is virtually unmeasurable. Is there soem? Yes, but miniscule. The movement that starts muzzel climb and causes a pistol to twist and climb is the recoil formed after the bullet leaves the barrel, otherwise you would never be able to hols a gun on target. The bullet was "out of the barrel" before that pistol started turning in the girls hand. She came nowhere near "shooting herself". She did, however, almost drop the gun.
Assuming the gun and shooter are at rest, the force on the bullet is equal to that on the gun-shooter. This is due to Newton's third law of motion (For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction). Consider a system where the gun and shooter have a combined mass M and the bullet has a mass m. When the gun is fired, the two systems move away from one another with new velocities V and v respectively. But the law of conservation of momentum states that their momenta must be equal:
Since force equals the rate of change in momentum and the initial momenta are zero, the force on the bullet must therefore be the same as the force on the gun/shooter.
quote:Originally posted by iceracerx
Assuming the gun and shooter are at rest, the force on the bullet is equal to that on the gun-shooter. This is due to Newton's third law of motion (For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction). Consider a system where the gun and shooter have a combined mass M and the bullet has a mass m. When the gun is fired, the two systems move away from one another with new velocities V and v respectively. But the law of conservation of momentum states that their momenta must be equal:
Since force equals the rate of change in momentum and the initial momenta are zero, the force on the bullet must therefore be the same as the force on the gun/shooter.
And, when does enough movement start to be felt or seen? After the bullet leaves the barrel, which was my original statement that the bullet had left the barrel before the gun moved. Maybe I should have added, "enough to see".
She didn't come anywhere near shooting herself. and you guys can argue until the cows come home.
Ice Racer you are correct in some way but remember the weight of the Gases "like a rocket" is much less then the weight of the bullet so ones the bullet leaves the barrel 99% of the recoil impluse is already started the firearm in the reverse direction the velocity of the pistol is much slower so it continues for a longer time. if the velocity was the same it would do the same damage to the shooter as the bullet does to what it hits.
Go find a nice 58 cal rifled musket (3 band with a loooong barrel). Load 60 grains of FFg and a 500+ grain minie' ball. Cap and touch it off. You will notice a "push" on your shoulder BEFORE that slug of a minie' leaves the barrel. I wonder what causes that?
These rifles are still used in competition. Try it, you might like it!
Ok load a 55 grain m-193 cartridge into your AR-15 with an 18"Bbl.
or a 190 grain OTM round into your remington M700 .300Win Mag with a 26"bbl.
pull the trigger. Load another. Pull the trigger.
quote:Originally posted by iceracerx
OK - one more time.
Go find a nice 58 cal rifled musket (3 band with a loooong barrel). Load 60 grains of FFg and a 500+ grain minie' ball. Cap and touch it off. You will notice a "push" on your shoulder BEFORE that slug of a minie' leaves the barrel. I wonder what causes that?
These rifles are still used in competition. Try it, you might like it!
True that the slower and heavier the bullet is, and the longer the barrel, the more significant it is, but it's still nothing like when the bullet exits. Now, take your same argument and put it in a modern gun, especially a pistol with a short barrel and fast burning powdet pushing the bullet at 1700 FPS, and suddenly the movement of the gun while the bullet is in the barrel becomes "insignificant" and the seen and felt recoil only occures "after" the bullet has left the barrel, which was the original statement along with the "fact" that the girl came no where near shooting herself.
This is one of the oldest arguments in shooting, and it has been studied in detail and the findings well published.
Bottom line, you will notice no "significant" recoil or movement in a gun until "after" the bullet leaves the barrel. This is just how it is, and it can hard for some to accept.
The bullet had already left the barrel before she felt any muzzel rise and nearly dropped the gun.
Ok load a 55 grain m-193 cartridge into your AR-15 with an 18"Bbl.
or a 190 grain OTM round into your remington M700 .300Win Mag with a 26"bbl.
pull the trigger. Load another. Pull the trigger.
I love it. you'd love it too.
We can agree on that.
I love pulling the trigger on just about any gun.[;)]
quote:Ice Racer you are correct in some way but remember the weight of the Gases "like a rocket" is much less then the weight of the bullet so ones the bullet leaves the barrel 99% of the recoil impluse is already started the firearm in the reverse direction the velocity of the pistol is much slower so it continues for a longer time. if the velocity was the same it would do the same damage to the shooter as the bullet does to what it hits.
Ref "the rocket effect"
The COM of the gas is 1/2 way between the breach face and the bullet base, and as such is traveling at 1/2 the bullets velocity until the bullet clears the muzzle. Once the bullet clears the muzzle, the gas COM increases it's velocity to approx 1.5 times the bullets exit velocity. THAT is your "rocket effect", the increase in gas velocity once the bullet clears the muzzle. Once the mass (bullet or gas) has cleared the muzzle it has no further effect on recoil.
Brakes work on the simple princaple of gas impingment IOW the give a surface area (that's attatched to the gun) for the forward moving gas to impact aganst, causing the barrel to be pulled forward. The larger the impingment area, the greater the angle of deflection and the more gas that can be deflected, the more effective the brake.
Comp's work by creating a low pressure zone on one side of the barrel, causing the barrel to move in the oppisite direction (just like a balloon does when you let the air out)
Barrel whip is a harmonic phenaomon(sp), while torqueing (twisting) of the firearm is caused by the bullet/rifling reaction (assuming no outside, handling, influance)
Ref "the rocket effect"
The COM of the gas is 1/2 way between the breach face and the bullet base, and as such is traveling at 1/2 the bullets velocity until the bullet clears the muzzle. Once the bullet clears the muzzle, the gas COM increases it's velocity to approx 1.5 times the bullets exit velocity. THAT is your "rocket effect", the increase in gas velocity once the bullet clears the muzzle. Once the mass (bullet or gas) has cleared the muzzle it has no further effect on recoil.
Brakes work on the simple principle of gas impingement IOW the give a surface area (that's attached to the gun) for the forward moving gas to impact against, causing the barrel to be pulled forward. The larger the impingement area, the greater the angle of deflection and the more gas that can be deflected, the more effective the brake.
Comp's work by creating a low pressure zone on one side of the barrel, causing the barrel to move in the opposite direction (just like a balloon does when you let the air out)
Barrel whip is a harmonic phenomenon(sp), while torquing (twisting) of the firearm is caused by the bullet/rifling reaction (assuming no outside, handling, influence)
Ok, more interesting info, yet the question remains; when does recoil start?
The correct answer is that what we call recoil starts the moment the bullet begins to move. Should anyone not believe this fact, I merely would ask you to think about igniting a charge in a tube between projectiles of equal weight. (Both will move in opposite directions at an equal rate with equal force.) Our guns are merely a huge projectile on the shooter end of the tube with a small pill on the other.
Before we go further, lets discuss recoil. Does anyone disagree that the total energy of recoil transmitted to the gun is exactly the same as the energy of the projectile as it leaves the muzzle? Thus, a revolver with no dampening devices such as might be found in an automatic will transmit as much energy backwards to the shooter as forward to the target.
Now to actual recoil... There's a little law of physics involved here. Bodies in motion tend to stay in motion and bodies at rest tend to stay at rest. The bullet being only a tiny fraction of the weight of the gun and moving at extreme speed will impart recoil to the frame of the gun immediately upon beginning its journey down the barrel. The frame of the gun will begin to react to the force of the bullet in the opposite direction, but will be governed by its overwhelming weight in relation to that of the projectile. Thus, while recoil will be involved, it's insignificant in terms of accuracy because time is the limiting factor here.
What hasn't been discussed as far as I can tell is the most important part of all. It's the part for which compensators are used. Think of a garden hose if you will. Turn on the water with no nozzle and you'll get a minimal "recoil" equal to the force of the water being ejected. Add a nozzle to increase the speed of the water and "recoil" will increase.
In effect the recoil everyone is talking about is the garden hose effect of the gas stream AFTER the bullet is far downrange of the muzzle. The exact same force that pushed the bullet must dissipate somewhere. Should we direct a portion of those gases backwards just before our projectile leaves the barrel, then we mitigate the effect of the balance of the gases leaving the barrel in the general direction of the bullet's path.
Should you be curious... Yes, muzzle velocity is decreased slightly if we release gases before the bullet actually leaves the barrel. But very much like the recoil imparted as the bullet begins its travel, the effect is insignificant overall.[^]
quote:Originally posted by iceracerx
quote:Originally posted by Tailgunner1954
Ref "the rocket effect"
The COM of the gas is 1/2 way between the breach face and the bullet base, and as such is traveling at 1/2 the bullets velocity until the bullet clears the muzzle. Once the bullet clears the muzzle, the gas COM increases it's velocity to approx 1.5 times the bullets exit velocity. THAT is your "rocket effect", the increase in gas velocity once the bullet clears the muzzle. Once the mass (bullet or gas) has cleared the muzzle it has no further effect on recoil.
Brakes work on the simple principle of gas impingement IOW the give a surface area (that's attached to the gun) for the forward moving gas to impact against, causing the barrel to be pulled forward. The larger the impingement area, the greater the angle of deflection and the more gas that can be deflected, the more effective the brake.
Comp's work by creating a low pressure zone on one side of the barrel, causing the barrel to move in the opposite direction (just like a balloon does when you let the air out)
Barrel whip is a harmonic phenomenon(sp), while torquing (twisting) of the firearm is caused by the bullet/rifling reaction (assuming no outside, handling, influence)
Ok, more interesting info, yet the question remains; when does recoil start?
Recoil starts at the same time as the bullet begins to move (until than the system is static, IOW the pressure in the case until than is a null value.
The duration of the recoil pulse is the same as the time between the start of bullet movement until the end of the gas movement.
When talking about recoil, there is more than the foot/lb of momentum that needs to be considered, TIME and VELOCITY are major players in what you feel in your hand/shoulder. Spread the recoil out over a longer time period, and it dosn't feel nearly as bad, same with slowing down the velocity of the recoil impulse.
quote:Originally posted by jimdeere
Not meaning to belabor the point, but...
"For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction".
I believe Wayne Newton said that.
quote:Originally posted by iceracerx
Thanks Bob. It has been my position since the start of this discussion. Now, if only we can get Danny to agree.
Okay, let's get to what was said.
I said the bullet had already left the barrel when the pistol recoiled. That is true.
I said there was movement from the point of detonation, but it was insignificant. That is true.
I said the massive forces we refer to as "recoil" happen after the bullet has left the barrel. That to is true.
What, exactly of those statements do you say are not true? What exactly is it you want me to agree to? Do you think the girl nearly shot herself, or nearly dropped the gun?
I think part of our disagreement is the definition of "recoil". You want it defined as any movement no matter how slight and regardless of significance. I define it as the massive or significant movement of the gun due to firing it.
Recoil as I define it happens after the bullet leaves the barrel. Recoil as you define it happens at detonation.
Literal hair splitting to argue a point on either side. Bottom line is, she came nowhere close to shooting herself as was the title of the original post.
quote:Originally posted by Chris8161
The boyfriend is an idiot, he could have really hurt her.
She could have hurt him if the pistol had flipped up and over her head like it did in the U-tube that showed the fat guy the 50 got away from ...
quote:Originally posted by jimdeere
Not meaning to belabor the point, but...
"For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction".
I believe Wayne Newton said that.
No, it was Newton John that said that ...
... Nailed it didn't I [:o)]
If you really desire something, you'll find a way ?
? otherwise, you'll find an excuse.
Comments
Get a damn room, hug each other. The sky is blue, not green like my neighbor says. Who cares, they are all idiots playing with a big gun.
Go change a diaper or something[:D]
Sorry Danny but you are wrong on this one. Look at some of the old single actions. The front sight is much higher than it should be. there is a reason for that. Trust me. When the bullet starts to move the gun starts to move at the same instant. Remember that for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction. A comp works because the bullet is moving much faster than the gun therefore it reaches the comp before the gun moves back very far and the gas jet pulls the gun forward to an extent reducing backward movement of the gun. And you guys thought I was just a pretty face! [:D]
Rosie,
Have you ever lasered the barrel to the sights? They are not higher, they just look it because of the receiver strap and the rear sight height against the barrelt taper.
The movement is "insignificant" and is held by kenetic force formed by holding the gun and it's weight. The movement referred to as recoil is after the bullet leaves.
There are actually two distinct recoils from a gun: the first, primary recoil, which I've described above, conserves momentum of the gun-bullet system. However, a larger secondary recoil comes slightly later, when the bullet leaves the muzzle: then the hot expanding gas behind the bullet shoots out of the muzzle, and the muzzle recoils further like a rocket. This is, again, conservation of momentum, but in this case is is the gas momentum out of the barrel that makes the secondary recoil. Gun manufacturers make baffles that reduce the flow of gas out of the muzzle to reduce secondary recoil. Primary recoil cannot be reduced, since it is simply associated with the forward momentum of the bullet.
Summary
The total momentum of a system is conserved if there are no outside forces acting on it.
Gun recoil results from conservation of total momentum of the bullet-gun system: the backward recoil gun momentum balances the forward bullet momentum to maintain zero total momentum.
Gun recoil actually has two parts: primary recoil from the escaping bullet and secondary recoil from the escaping gas behind the bullet.
http://www.bsharp.org/physics/stuff/recoil.html
quote:Originally posted by dheffley
Perry, the movement of the gun at detonation until bullet exit is insignificant, and recoil as we know it starts at exit. I doubt you could measure more than .001" movement, if fired out of a vice, until the bullet exits, if that. Human hands and flench do make some movement.
Dan, ANY movement opposite the travel of the bullet is RECOIL. It doesn't matter how small the movement. And why do you use the example of a vice? Why not make the firearm free moving?
The gas pressure is exerting EQUAL pressure on the bullet and firearm when the bullet is in the barrel. The fact that there is a huge difference in mass doesn't negate the fact that there has to be movement opposite the bullet.
Last reply.
The weight of the gun, and the force of holding it forms some resistance. I'm talking about movement of the gun due to internal forces, not hammer strick or barrel whip, which is virtually unmeasurable. Is there soem? Yes, but miniscule. The movement that starts muzzel climb and causes a pistol to twist and climb is the recoil formed after the bullet leaves the barrel, otherwise you would never be able to hols a gun on target. The bullet was "out of the barrel" before that pistol started turning in the girls hand. She came nowhere near "shooting herself". She did, however, almost drop the gun.
You guys need to do some competition training.
Since force equals the rate of change in momentum and the initial momenta are zero, the force on the bullet must therefore be the same as the force on the gun/shooter.
Assuming the gun and shooter are at rest, the force on the bullet is equal to that on the gun-shooter. This is due to Newton's third law of motion (For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction). Consider a system where the gun and shooter have a combined mass M and the bullet has a mass m. When the gun is fired, the two systems move away from one another with new velocities V and v respectively. But the law of conservation of momentum states that their momenta must be equal:
Since force equals the rate of change in momentum and the initial momenta are zero, the force on the bullet must therefore be the same as the force on the gun/shooter.
And, when does enough movement start to be felt or seen? After the bullet leaves the barrel, which was my original statement that the bullet had left the barrel before the gun moved. Maybe I should have added, "enough to see".
She didn't come anywhere near shooting herself. and you guys can argue until the cows come home.
All the "competition" training is the world isn't going to change the Laws of Physics
No, it teaches when the laws of physics begin to affect gun control, accuracy, and movement.
Try it, you'll like it.
Go find a nice 58 cal rifled musket (3 band with a loooong barrel). Load 60 grains of FFg and a 500+ grain minie' ball. Cap and touch it off. You will notice a "push" on your shoulder BEFORE that slug of a minie' leaves the barrel. I wonder what causes that?
These rifles are still used in competition. Try it, you might like it!
or a 190 grain OTM round into your remington M700 .300Win Mag with a 26"bbl.
pull the trigger. Load another. Pull the trigger.
I love it. you'd love it too.
We can agree on that.
People taking opposite sides of an argument and no one is insulting anyone or calling names.
Thanks!
OK - one more time.
Go find a nice 58 cal rifled musket (3 band with a loooong barrel). Load 60 grains of FFg and a 500+ grain minie' ball. Cap and touch it off. You will notice a "push" on your shoulder BEFORE that slug of a minie' leaves the barrel. I wonder what causes that?
These rifles are still used in competition. Try it, you might like it!
True that the slower and heavier the bullet is, and the longer the barrel, the more significant it is, but it's still nothing like when the bullet exits. Now, take your same argument and put it in a modern gun, especially a pistol with a short barrel and fast burning powdet pushing the bullet at 1700 FPS, and suddenly the movement of the gun while the bullet is in the barrel becomes "insignificant" and the seen and felt recoil only occures "after" the bullet has left the barrel, which was the original statement along with the "fact" that the girl came no where near shooting herself.
This is one of the oldest arguments in shooting, and it has been studied in detail and the findings well published.
Bottom line, you will notice no "significant" recoil or movement in a gun until "after" the bullet leaves the barrel. This is just how it is, and it can hard for some to accept.
The bullet had already left the barrel before she felt any muzzel rise and nearly dropped the gun.
Ok load a 55 grain m-193 cartridge into your AR-15 with an 18"Bbl.
or a 190 grain OTM round into your remington M700 .300Win Mag with a 26"bbl.
pull the trigger. Load another. Pull the trigger.
I love it. you'd love it too.
We can agree on that.
I love pulling the trigger on just about any gun.[;)]
This is NICE!
People taking opposite sides of an argument and no one is insulting anyone or calling names.
Thanks!
We disagree David. That doesn't mean we won't go shooting, fishing and eating BBQ together![}:)][:D][:D][:D]
This is NICE!
People taking opposite sides of an argument and no one is insulting anyone or calling names.
Thanks!
heff, when you were little, you were so homely, your mama had to tie a porkchop around your neck to get the dog to play with you.
(How's that, Nunn?)
Ref "the rocket effect"
The COM of the gas is 1/2 way between the breach face and the bullet base, and as such is traveling at 1/2 the bullets velocity until the bullet clears the muzzle. Once the bullet clears the muzzle, the gas COM increases it's velocity to approx 1.5 times the bullets exit velocity. THAT is your "rocket effect", the increase in gas velocity once the bullet clears the muzzle. Once the mass (bullet or gas) has cleared the muzzle it has no further effect on recoil.
Brakes work on the simple princaple of gas impingment IOW the give a surface area (that's attatched to the gun) for the forward moving gas to impact aganst, causing the barrel to be pulled forward. The larger the impingment area, the greater the angle of deflection and the more gas that can be deflected, the more effective the brake.
Comp's work by creating a low pressure zone on one side of the barrel, causing the barrel to move in the oppisite direction (just like a balloon does when you let the air out)
Barrel whip is a harmonic phenaomon(sp), while torqueing (twisting) of the firearm is caused by the bullet/rifling reaction (assuming no outside, handling, influance)
Ref "the rocket effect"
The COM of the gas is 1/2 way between the breach face and the bullet base, and as such is traveling at 1/2 the bullets velocity until the bullet clears the muzzle. Once the bullet clears the muzzle, the gas COM increases it's velocity to approx 1.5 times the bullets exit velocity. THAT is your "rocket effect", the increase in gas velocity once the bullet clears the muzzle. Once the mass (bullet or gas) has cleared the muzzle it has no further effect on recoil.
Brakes work on the simple principle of gas impingement IOW the give a surface area (that's attached to the gun) for the forward moving gas to impact against, causing the barrel to be pulled forward. The larger the impingement area, the greater the angle of deflection and the more gas that can be deflected, the more effective the brake.
Comp's work by creating a low pressure zone on one side of the barrel, causing the barrel to move in the opposite direction (just like a balloon does when you let the air out)
Barrel whip is a harmonic phenomenon(sp), while torquing (twisting) of the firearm is caused by the bullet/rifling reaction (assuming no outside, handling, influence)
Ok, more interesting info, yet the question remains; when does recoil start?
The correct answer is that what we call recoil starts the moment the bullet begins to move. Should anyone not believe this fact, I merely would ask you to think about igniting a charge in a tube between projectiles of equal weight. (Both will move in opposite directions at an equal rate with equal force.) Our guns are merely a huge projectile on the shooter end of the tube with a small pill on the other.
Before we go further, lets discuss recoil. Does anyone disagree that the total energy of recoil transmitted to the gun is exactly the same as the energy of the projectile as it leaves the muzzle? Thus, a revolver with no dampening devices such as might be found in an automatic will transmit as much energy backwards to the shooter as forward to the target.
Now to actual recoil... There's a little law of physics involved here. Bodies in motion tend to stay in motion and bodies at rest tend to stay at rest. The bullet being only a tiny fraction of the weight of the gun and moving at extreme speed will impart recoil to the frame of the gun immediately upon beginning its journey down the barrel. The frame of the gun will begin to react to the force of the bullet in the opposite direction, but will be governed by its overwhelming weight in relation to that of the projectile. Thus, while recoil will be involved, it's insignificant in terms of accuracy because time is the limiting factor here.
What hasn't been discussed as far as I can tell is the most important part of all. It's the part for which compensators are used. Think of a garden hose if you will. Turn on the water with no nozzle and you'll get a minimal "recoil" equal to the force of the water being ejected. Add a nozzle to increase the speed of the water and "recoil" will increase.
In effect the recoil everyone is talking about is the garden hose effect of the gas stream AFTER the bullet is far downrange of the muzzle. The exact same force that pushed the bullet must dissipate somewhere. Should we direct a portion of those gases backwards just before our projectile leaves the barrel, then we mitigate the effect of the balance of the gases leaving the barrel in the general direction of the bullet's path.
Should you be curious... Yes, muzzle velocity is decreased slightly if we release gases before the bullet actually leaves the barrel. But very much like the recoil imparted as the bullet begins its travel, the effect is insignificant overall.[^]
quote:Originally posted by Tailgunner1954
Ref "the rocket effect"
The COM of the gas is 1/2 way between the breach face and the bullet base, and as such is traveling at 1/2 the bullets velocity until the bullet clears the muzzle. Once the bullet clears the muzzle, the gas COM increases it's velocity to approx 1.5 times the bullets exit velocity. THAT is your "rocket effect", the increase in gas velocity once the bullet clears the muzzle. Once the mass (bullet or gas) has cleared the muzzle it has no further effect on recoil.
Brakes work on the simple principle of gas impingement IOW the give a surface area (that's attached to the gun) for the forward moving gas to impact against, causing the barrel to be pulled forward. The larger the impingement area, the greater the angle of deflection and the more gas that can be deflected, the more effective the brake.
Comp's work by creating a low pressure zone on one side of the barrel, causing the barrel to move in the opposite direction (just like a balloon does when you let the air out)
Barrel whip is a harmonic phenomenon(sp), while torquing (twisting) of the firearm is caused by the bullet/rifling reaction (assuming no outside, handling, influence)
Ok, more interesting info, yet the question remains; when does recoil start?
Recoil starts at the same time as the bullet begins to move (until than the system is static, IOW the pressure in the case until than is a null value.
The duration of the recoil pulse is the same as the time between the start of bullet movement until the end of the gas movement.
When talking about recoil, there is more than the foot/lb of momentum that needs to be considered, TIME and VELOCITY are major players in what you feel in your hand/shoulder. Spread the recoil out over a longer time period, and it dosn't feel nearly as bad, same with slowing down the velocity of the recoil impulse.
[:(]
Not meaning to belabor the point, but...
"For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction".
I believe Wayne Newton said that.
[:D][:D]
Thanks Bob. It has been my position since the start of this discussion. Now, if only we can get Danny to agree.
Okay, let's get to what was said.
I said the bullet had already left the barrel when the pistol recoiled. That is true.
I said there was movement from the point of detonation, but it was insignificant. That is true.
I said the massive forces we refer to as "recoil" happen after the bullet has left the barrel. That to is true.
What, exactly of those statements do you say are not true? What exactly is it you want me to agree to? Do you think the girl nearly shot herself, or nearly dropped the gun?
I think part of our disagreement is the definition of "recoil". You want it defined as any movement no matter how slight and regardless of significance. I define it as the massive or significant movement of the gun due to firing it.
Recoil as I define it happens after the bullet leaves the barrel. Recoil as you define it happens at detonation.
Literal hair splitting to argue a point on either side. Bottom line is, she came nowhere close to shooting herself as was the title of the original post.
What if you had a 100 yard long gun barrel?
The bullet would never make it to the end of the barrel![}:)]
I agree fully!!!!!
The boyfriend is an idiot, he could have really hurt her.
She could have hurt him if the pistol had flipped up and over her head like it did in the U-tube that showed the fat guy the 50 got away from ...
quote:Originally posted by jimdeere
Not meaning to belabor the point, but...
"For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction".
I believe Wayne Newton said that.
No, it was Newton John that said that ...
... Nailed it didn't I [:o)]
? otherwise, you'll find an excuse.
... I've often noticed 'the solution.' for many of you guys,
is to get a bigger gal!