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quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
I don't know the particulars of this event except that the McCain was not a combat ready warship for this to happen.
I do know one area the Navy erred greatly in with the Fitzgerald.
NJP does not get peoples attention like special or general courts martials.
Discipline has gone to hell. We all choose the Navy for the adventure. With great rewards also come great risks. We know we have a job to do and if we are lax, men die. Leavenworth should have been a TAD assignment for some of the officers and enlisteds.
If there was as much negligence with the McCain as with the Fitzgerald, examples need to be made of the crew.
It's past time to get peoples attention.
I agree with this 100%. I was on a Destroyer and never had this happen. When we were in the North Atlantic we were in close quarters with many a Russian war ship. If a Russian ship got too close we were at GQ to take evasive action.
I do some work at a MEPS center testing prospective recruits for the military.
Two things I am aware of, first many of the people entering the military now are very marginal in their education level. For many branches you need a min. test score of 50% to qualify for least technical positions.
Many testers do not even get close to that score even after taking the test many times and this is a test that is based on 10th grade skills.
Second, I speak with the Recruiters and they say they are spending
more time on meetings for the feel good stuff then they are spending on training.
quote:Originally posted by bigoutside
I am not USN or any other N.
But I have been a serious recreational sailor. As in, I can get you from one point on the globe to another, under sail, in a reasonable time...safely.
A collision by a Navy ship is not the same as you or I rubbing against another boat, ship or yacht.
I've been boarded by the coast guard because they thought I was a little too close to the wreck of the Queen Anne's Revenge. (at the time, unpublished location). And if I'd been them, I'd a run me off as well.
It is worse than running aground. We all run aground. But USN Captains lose their boat when they run aground. And it usually runs downhill a grade or three.
A FREAKIN COLLISION???!!??
This wasn't an oiler or a tug or a barge.
This is a top o the line warship.
A commercial vessel should have gotten continuous radio warnings, immediate radar input, flairs, spotlights, live shot across the bow, klaxons...
... and then they should have been cut in half by the 20mm phalanx or 25mm Bushmaster or the 127mm gun.
Or a solid ramming by a support vessel nearby.
This ship is a Ferrari.
I don't own a Ferrari. But if I did, I would kick your * into your throat if you came riding a shopping cart at it in the Piggly Wiggly parking lot.
If the merchant vessel isn't at the bottom of the Strait of Malacca with a loss of all hands, something is wrong. [V]
The Alnic MC is a 50,000 tonne plus tanker/chemical carrier. It is basically an underpowered bus with limited maneuverability. The onus of avoidance is obviously upon the Farrari. There are statements that the McCain experienced a steering failure prior to the collision, but that control was regained some time before impact. If this was in fact the case, it is very possible that the bridge crew was distracted from their primary mission due to the problem. If there was a steering problem, USN vessels all have backup controls in After Steering with an absolute back up a mechanical handwheel which, though slow, will change the direction the pointy end is pointing.
There is also speculation that there was a cyber attack on the McCain. I don't understand this one, as I find it hard to believe that there is any connection between the steering and propulsion commands and any means to connect electronically with the outside world.
Absent something totally unforeseen, this failure is a fault of the crew of the McCain, even if they experienced an issue with the steering gear at some point prior to the collision.
Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.
As Don said, the latest report says there was a steering failure problem aboard the McCain. Whether that resulted in the destroyer turning into the taker's path and being unable to avoid it remains to be seen, but it may not be the fault of anybody aboard. The tanker is hard to turn and harder yet to stop.
They have also confirmed there was no hacking.
Some of you are spring-loaded to the conclusion jumping switch position, for sure.
quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
Paint the ships orange and put fenders on them.
With all the lessons in seamanship that have been promulgated since the Fitzgerald, and this happens?
CinC PACFLT is feelin' some heat.
[:(]
I will be surprised if CINCPACFLT ain't packing his seabag.
It always comes down to training and supervision. Even if it comes down to a steering problem, that's still a maintenance problem which comes down to training and supervision.
I think Don got it right. There is plenty of training going on, but it ain't the right training.
quote:Originally posted by Sam06
I was never a sailor but I cannot see how this can happen unless there is gross negligence involved.
I think the USN needs to get back to fundamentals, like a port and starboard watch.
They would have had two bridge lookouts, one on the port side and one on the starboard side plus a stern lookout.
(FYI, when naval fellers refer to port and starboard watches, they are referring to a schedule where one stands two 6 hour watches per day. 6 on, 6 off, 6 on, 6 off, 6 on, 6 off, 6 on, 6 off, well you get the picture.
We were a little undermanned during a Westpac, and I was standing port and starboard watches for 6 months straight, broken up only when we were in port. While you mostly get used to it, it does take a toll.
Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.
quote:Originally posted by JamesRK
quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
Paint the ships orange and put fenders on them.
With all the lessons in seamanship that have been promulgated since the Fitzgerald, and this happens?
CinC PACFLT is feelin' some heat.
[:(]
I will be surprised if CINCPACFLT ain't packing his seabag.
It always comes down to training and supervision. Even if it comes down to a steering problem, that's still a maintenance problem which comes down to training and supervision.
I think Don got it right. There is plenty of training going on, but it ain't the right training.
I agree Jim.
I'm not buying a steering gear failure excuse either. Two screws, flank on the port, reverse on the starboard will cause the ship to turn starboard regardless of the rudder.
One important piece of evidence that I haven't read anywhere was if the collision alarm was sounded. If not, McCain was asleep.
quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
quote:Originally posted by JamesRK
quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
Paint the ships orange and put fenders on them.
With all the lessons in seamanship that have been promulgated since the Fitzgerald, and this happens?
CinC PACFLT is feelin' some heat.
[:(]
I will be surprised if CINCPACFLT ain't packing his seabag.
It always comes down to training and supervision. Even if it comes down to a steering problem, that's still a maintenance problem which comes down to training and supervision.
I think Don got it right. There is plenty of training going on, but it ain't the right training.
I agree Jim.
I'm not buying a steering gear failure excuse either. Two screws, flank on the port, reverse on the starboard will cause the ship to turn starboard regardless of the rudder.
One important piece of evidence that I haven't read anywhere was if the collision alarm was sounded. If not, McCain was asleep.
Steering with the screws is a very sluggish way to try and turn a 7,000 ton warship. The rudders on a destroyer are huge so that she can maneuver, and heading changes at speed are very slow if using the screws, particularly if the rudders are stuck a something other than 0?. It makes a difference, but not enough to avoid a collision if moving at any reasonable speed.
Using differential screw settings a typically used during docking to pivot the ship or, if really have your stuff together, to walk it sideways to the pier.
Proper reaction to a loss of steering control from the bridge would have been to transfer control to After Steering. The two back up systems there will move the rudders absent major mechanical damage, which obviously had not occurred as the McCain was underway on her own power following the collision.
Way back when, we did train to use the screws for maneuvering, but to my recollection did not train to use them for maneuvering when we had steerageway.
Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.
Comments
I don't know the particulars of this event except that the McCain was not a combat ready warship for this to happen.
I do know one area the Navy erred greatly in with the Fitzgerald.
NJP does not get peoples attention like special or general courts martials.
Discipline has gone to hell. We all choose the Navy for the adventure. With great rewards also come great risks. We know we have a job to do and if we are lax, men die. Leavenworth should have been a TAD assignment for some of the officers and enlisteds.
If there was as much negligence with the McCain as with the Fitzgerald, examples need to be made of the crew.
It's past time to get peoples attention.
I agree with this 100%. I was on a Destroyer and never had this happen. When we were in the North Atlantic we were in close quarters with many a Russian war ship. If a Russian ship got too close we were at GQ to take evasive action.
I do some work at a MEPS center testing prospective recruits for the military.
Two things I am aware of, first many of the people entering the military now are very marginal in their education level. For many branches you need a min. test score of 50% to qualify for least technical positions.
Many testers do not even get close to that score even after taking the test many times and this is a test that is based on 10th grade skills.
Second, I speak with the Recruiters and they say they are spending
more time on meetings for the feel good stuff then they are spending on training.
I am not USN or any other N.
But I have been a serious recreational sailor. As in, I can get you from one point on the globe to another, under sail, in a reasonable time...safely.
A collision by a Navy ship is not the same as you or I rubbing against another boat, ship or yacht.
I've been boarded by the coast guard because they thought I was a little too close to the wreck of the Queen Anne's Revenge. (at the time, unpublished location). And if I'd been them, I'd a run me off as well.
It is worse than running aground. We all run aground. But USN Captains lose their boat when they run aground. And it usually runs downhill a grade or three.
A FREAKIN COLLISION???!!??
This wasn't an oiler or a tug or a barge.
This is a top o the line warship.
A commercial vessel should have gotten continuous radio warnings, immediate radar input, flairs, spotlights, live shot across the bow, klaxons...
... and then they should have been cut in half by the 20mm phalanx or 25mm Bushmaster or the 127mm gun.
Or a solid ramming by a support vessel nearby.
This ship is a Ferrari.
I don't own a Ferrari. But if I did, I would kick your * into your throat if you came riding a shopping cart at it in the Piggly Wiggly parking lot.
If the merchant vessel isn't at the bottom of the Strait of Malacca with a loss of all hands, something is wrong. [V]
The Alnic MC is a 50,000 tonne plus tanker/chemical carrier. It is basically an underpowered bus with limited maneuverability. The onus of avoidance is obviously upon the Farrari. There are statements that the McCain experienced a steering failure prior to the collision, but that control was regained some time before impact. If this was in fact the case, it is very possible that the bridge crew was distracted from their primary mission due to the problem. If there was a steering problem, USN vessels all have backup controls in After Steering with an absolute back up a mechanical handwheel which, though slow, will change the direction the pointy end is pointing.
There is also speculation that there was a cyber attack on the McCain. I don't understand this one, as I find it hard to believe that there is any connection between the steering and propulsion commands and any means to connect electronically with the outside world.
Absent something totally unforeseen, this failure is a fault of the crew of the McCain, even if they experienced an issue with the steering gear at some point prior to the collision.
Brad Steele
Can't believe this is coincidence.
If there is something to that, I'd bet China is involved ...
They have also confirmed there was no hacking.
Some of you are spring-loaded to the conclusion jumping switch position, for sure.
Paint the ships orange and put fenders on them.
With all the lessons in seamanship that have been promulgated since the Fitzgerald, and this happens?
CinC PACFLT is feelin' some heat.
[:(]
I will be surprised if CINCPACFLT ain't packing his seabag.
It always comes down to training and supervision. Even if it comes down to a steering problem, that's still a maintenance problem which comes down to training and supervision.
I think Don got it right. There is plenty of training going on, but it ain't the right training.
I was never a sailor but I cannot see how this can happen unless there is gross negligence involved.
I think the USN needs to get back to fundamentals, like a port and starboard watch.
They would have had two bridge lookouts, one on the port side and one on the starboard side plus a stern lookout.
(FYI, when naval fellers refer to port and starboard watches, they are referring to a schedule where one stands two 6 hour watches per day. 6 on, 6 off, 6 on, 6 off, 6 on, 6 off, 6 on, 6 off, well you get the picture.
We were a little undermanned during a Westpac, and I was standing port and starboard watches for 6 months straight, broken up only when we were in port. While you mostly get used to it, it does take a toll.
Brad Steele
quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
Paint the ships orange and put fenders on them.
With all the lessons in seamanship that have been promulgated since the Fitzgerald, and this happens?
CinC PACFLT is feelin' some heat.
[:(]
I will be surprised if CINCPACFLT ain't packing his seabag.
It always comes down to training and supervision. Even if it comes down to a steering problem, that's still a maintenance problem which comes down to training and supervision.
I think Don got it right. There is plenty of training going on, but it ain't the right training.
I agree Jim.
I'm not buying a steering gear failure excuse either. Two screws, flank on the port, reverse on the starboard will cause the ship to turn starboard regardless of the rudder.
One important piece of evidence that I haven't read anywhere was if the collision alarm was sounded. If not, McCain was asleep.
quote:Originally posted by JamesRK
quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
Paint the ships orange and put fenders on them.
With all the lessons in seamanship that have been promulgated since the Fitzgerald, and this happens?
CinC PACFLT is feelin' some heat.
[:(]
I will be surprised if CINCPACFLT ain't packing his seabag.
It always comes down to training and supervision. Even if it comes down to a steering problem, that's still a maintenance problem which comes down to training and supervision.
I think Don got it right. There is plenty of training going on, but it ain't the right training.
I agree Jim.
I'm not buying a steering gear failure excuse either. Two screws, flank on the port, reverse on the starboard will cause the ship to turn starboard regardless of the rudder.
One important piece of evidence that I haven't read anywhere was if the collision alarm was sounded. If not, McCain was asleep.
Steering with the screws is a very sluggish way to try and turn a 7,000 ton warship. The rudders on a destroyer are huge so that she can maneuver, and heading changes at speed are very slow if using the screws, particularly if the rudders are stuck a something other than 0?. It makes a difference, but not enough to avoid a collision if moving at any reasonable speed.
Using differential screw settings a typically used during docking to pivot the ship or, if really have your stuff together, to walk it sideways to the pier.
Proper reaction to a loss of steering control from the bridge would have been to transfer control to After Steering. The two back up systems there will move the rudders absent major mechanical damage, which obviously had not occurred as the McCain was underway on her own power following the collision.
Way back when, we did train to use the screws for maneuvering, but to my recollection did not train to use them for maneuvering when we had steerageway.
Brad Steele
Here's the first head.
http://www.navytimes.com/breaking-news/2017/08/23/us-pacific-fleet-boss-sacks-three-star-fleet-commander-after-a-rash-of-incidents/#.WZzbwQlvCaE.facebook
7th Fleet Commander is being s#itcanned.
Here's the first head.
http://www.navytimes.com/breaking-news/2017/08/23/us-pacific-fleet-boss-sacks-three-star-fleet-commander-after-a-rash-of-incidents/#.WZzbwQlvCaE.facebook
4 incidents so far this year. He needs to be gone.
Enemies must be ecstatic at the f ups
quote:Originally posted by Frankp
Can't believe this is coincidence.
If there is something to that, I'd bet China is involved ...
Neither can quite a few others and this video mirrors some of these comments.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAkKQrIsSyE
quote:Originally posted by Sperry
quote:Originally posted by Frankp
Can't believe this is coincidence.
If there is something to that, I'd bet China is involved ...
Neither can quite a few others and this video mirrors some of these comments.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAkKQrIsSyE
I have a cheese grater that knows more about the USN than this idiot.
Brad Steele