In order to participate in the GunBroker Member forums, you must be logged in with your GunBroker.com account. Click the sign-in button at the top right of the forums page to get connected.
Viewpoints regarding statues
mogley98
Member Posts: 18,291 ✭✭✭✭
For a point of discussion only I am not advocating their removal.
I personally feel it is very different but I don't have the words or knowledge to state it correctly.
How is honoring men as hero's who fought for the south and the obviously stated objective of slavery and states rights regarding that issue different then Germany insisting on having "Hero's" of Hitler, Himmler,Goering Etc. ?
Or Japan celebrating Pearl Harbor?
While not necessarily attempting to erase history the statues depicting men on horseback with swords drawn and celebrating the truly heroic acts of men like "Stonewall" Jackson, I suppose some could think of this as being supportive of the South's stated goal of extending slavery and preventing the Federal Government from determining the effective timeline of it's abolishment.
Personally I feel that these men (North and South) were indeed brave and as their ancestors it is right to acknowledge their sacrifices and bravery.
I would think if my Great Grandpa was a decorated war hero for Germany regardless of the leaderships stated cause for the war is it wrong to celebrate the acts of heroism of the individual people?
Wouldn't a Japanese son be proud of his father shooting down many enemy planes regardless of the villiany of the war itself?
I personally feel it is very different but I don't have the words or knowledge to state it correctly.
How is honoring men as hero's who fought for the south and the obviously stated objective of slavery and states rights regarding that issue different then Germany insisting on having "Hero's" of Hitler, Himmler,Goering Etc. ?
Or Japan celebrating Pearl Harbor?
While not necessarily attempting to erase history the statues depicting men on horseback with swords drawn and celebrating the truly heroic acts of men like "Stonewall" Jackson, I suppose some could think of this as being supportive of the South's stated goal of extending slavery and preventing the Federal Government from determining the effective timeline of it's abolishment.
Personally I feel that these men (North and South) were indeed brave and as their ancestors it is right to acknowledge their sacrifices and bravery.
I would think if my Great Grandpa was a decorated war hero for Germany regardless of the leaderships stated cause for the war is it wrong to celebrate the acts of heroism of the individual people?
Wouldn't a Japanese son be proud of his father shooting down many enemy planes regardless of the villiany of the war itself?
Why don't we go to school and work on the weekends and take the week off!
Comments
ie: No gas chambers, death camps, sneak attacks before declaring war ie: atrocities against selected peoples. The list could go on.
all this is nothing more than a power struggle
quote:Originally posted by shilowar
I think some wealthy southern gentlemen should step up and buy the statues to preserve and protect them. If communities are going to decide to take them down, then they should be preserved in a museum or in a private collection rather than destroyed. Elections have consequences, if communities are going to elect liberals and progressive republicans then they are going to suffer their decisions.
These DEMOCRATs are not going to stop until they ultimately erase the US Constitution. They are already talking about tearing down the Jefferson Memorial since he was a slave owner.
Then they need to add Ulysses S. Grant National Memorial (Tomb) in New York.
He was a slave owner and, also, managed his wife's slaves.
I am not wealthy maybe not even a Gentleman however i do have a parcel of land that could hold a whole bunch of em.
quote:Originally posted by shilowar
I think some wealthy southern gentlemen should step up and buy the statues to preserve and protect them. If communities are going to decide to take them down, then they should be preserved in a museum or in a private collection rather than destroyed. Elections have consequences, if communities are going to elect liberals and progressive republicans then they are going to suffer their decisions.
Is your land nearby a street or A highway. If so, why not let it be used for one of our flags?
Obviously, war criminals should not be honored......which is why there aren't any Bloody Bill Anderson statues in our parks.
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
Look at the Gallipoli Memorial erected by Ataturk at Anzak Cove. It honored his enemies. These are our brothers.
Actually, there may be some linkage with the recent turn we have seen to stop saying the confederate statues should be removed because of their linkage to slavery, and start claiming it is because the South were traitors. The left does not have a good explanation for their support of Islamic culture when they still practice slavery in many places.
It is also enlightening to recall that the Taliban destroyed the Buddhas of Bamiyan. Erdogon has removed the words of Kamal Attaturk from the Anzak Cove memorial.
When we sanitize history to a version more suitable, we place ourselves in some strange company.
Your average soldier in the CSA never owned slaves and could not afford them. They were fighting for their state. At that time the states still had the militia and not a standard standing army as we do today. They served with courage in both Blue and Gray. I honor them as brothers in arms.
Germany and Japan were occupied by the Allied powers after WWII and the Soviets especially tore down anything related to the military and went on a raping spree in Berlin and Germany as a whole. The US occupied Japan and there was not much standing when we walked in. Japan has never been big on statues. They honor their people on a more private scale. In the US, it was understood that we were still a family despite the war and we wished to mend the rift as quickly as possible. Both sides honored their fallen through statues and street names.
I have always believed that you honor the warrior and not necessarily the war. If the warrior was one who carried out war crimes, then they are not to be honored. To say it was a violent war and should not be honored on one side only, that is wrong. War is meant to be violent so that the other side capitulates quickly.
There is now talk of wanting Army bases renamed because they are named after Confederate generals (Lee, Hood, Jackson, Stewart, Gordon) and even to have their names stricken from the roles of West Point if they attended there. It is sad.
Part of the reason they were erected, I believe, was to send a message to the south to say "yep, still welcome".
To my knowledge the Confederate monuments were paid for to a large extent by funds raised by the United Daughters of the Confederacy.
Come on folks. The war, and the soldiers fighting it, were not fighting about slavery!!!
LOL!
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
Come on folks. The war, and the soldiers fighting it, were not fighting about slavery!!!
Of course it was. That is why the Emancipation Proclamation was signed before the war started. Don
The North or South didn't condone, authorize or commit war crimes.
ie: No gas chambers, death camps, sneak attacks before declaring war ie: atrocities against selected peoples. The list could go on.
I would suppose those that ended up in prison camps like say Andersonville would tend to disagree with you. How ever this has nothing to do with the original posters question.
I say let them stand.
quote:Originally posted by randomnut
Come on folks. The war, and the soldiers fighting it, were not fighting about slavery!!!
LOL!
Look, let's get over it already. the War of Northern Aggression was about states rights NOT slavery. The industrial revolution was well along the path of rendering slavery technically and fiscally obsolete. Had the northern industrial complex not forced the South's hand something very different would have happened. I don't know what that something would have been, but it would have been very different.
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by randomnut
Come on folks. The war, and the soldiers fighting it, were not fighting about slavery!!!
LOL!
Look, let's get over it already. the War of Northern Aggression was about states rights NOT slavery. The industrial revolution was well along the path of rendering slavery technically and fiscally obsolete. Had the northern industrial complex not forced the South's hand something very different would have happened. I don't know what that something would have been, but it would have been very different.
Slavery was specifically mentioned as a reason for secession by several states. It was codified. Written down. Searchable today. I do not see how the war was not about slavery. And for anyone to deny it is laughable.
See for yourself:
https://www.civilwar.org/learn/primary-sources/declaration-causes-seceding-states
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
Slavery was specifically mentioned as a reason for secession by several states. It was codified. Written down. Searchable today. I do not see how the war was not about slavery. And for anyone to deny it is laughable.
See for yourself:
https://www.civilwar.org/learn/primary-sources/declaration-causes-seceding-states
Clearly you learned history at the hands of the victors. They will tell you what you want they want you to think. I expected better of you.
Photo from Gallipoli taken by Mark Christian.
He visited there several years ago and had a great photo essay on the forum about this tragic battle.
Great copy and pics, Mark's story was worthy of National Geographic.
Dads are you saying that the current Turk PM has removed these words?
.
quote:Originally posted by droptop
The North or South didn't condone, authorize or commit war crimes.
ie: No gas chambers, death camps, sneak attacks before declaring war ie: atrocities against selected peoples. The list could go on.
I would suppose those that ended up in prison camps like say Andersonville would tend to disagree with you. How ever this has nothing to do with the original posters question.
I say let them stand.
The prison ships in New York Harbor, where captured Confederates languished and died of all sorts of disease.War is made to keep simple revelations, it is hell,but when the fighting was over ,they all(most) honored their opposing forces and went home....Tell me how many Confederate Monuments are at Gettysburg? I think the "Dukes of Hazard" etc did more harm than any monument...
quote:Originally posted by CaptFun
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by randomnut
Come on folks. The war, and the soldiers fighting it, were not fighting about slavery!!!
LOL!
Look, let's get over it already. the War of Northern Aggression was about states rights NOT slavery. The industrial revolution was well along the path of rendering slavery technically and fiscally obsolete. Had the northern industrial complex not forced the South's hand something very different would have happened. I don't know what that something would have been, but it would have been very different.
Slavery was specifically mentioned as a reason for secession by several states. It was codified. Written down. Searchable today. I do not see how the war was not about slavery. And for anyone to deny it is laughable.
See for yourself:
https://www.civilwar.org/learn/primary-sources/declaration-causes-seceding-states
My Great Grand Father was asked why he fought....Because the Yankees were here, and he wanted to defend his homeland...none of my family members owned slaves, but they did take care of Negroes in their communities...before and after the war....there is a census that shows where my Grand father kept a 10 yr old black child they adopted because her parents were deceased...they were family friends....and this is in the deep south...Segregation?...sure,but not in friendship..
quote:Originally posted by armilite
quote:Originally posted by droptop
The North or South didn't condone, authorize or commit war crimes.
ie: No gas chambers, death camps, sneak attacks before declaring war ie: atrocities against selected peoples. The list could go on.
I would suppose those that ended up in prison camps like say Andersonville would tend to disagree with you. How ever this has nothing to do with the original posters question.
I say let them stand.
The prison ships in New York Harbor, where captured Confederates languished and died of all sorts of disease.War is made to keep simple revelations, it is hell,but when the fighting was over ,they all(most) honored their opposing forces and went home....Tell me how many Confederate Monuments are at Gettysburg? I think the "Dukes of Hazard" etc did more harm than any monument...
The bigger monuments at Gettysburg and Vicksburg, etc., were state funded, I think.
as we forget history we shall repete it[:0]
I must live under a rock because I never knew the statues bothered some so much until recent. Taking them down is doing much more harm than good, digging up the past in my opinion.
quote:Originally posted by fordsix
as we forget history we shall repete it[:0]
I must live under a rock because I never knew the statues bothered some so much until recent. Taking them down is doing much more harm than good, digging up the past in my opinion.
We're your grandfathers Confederate soldiers?
I agree with you in that taking them down is doing more harm than good. It is something that if not curbed might likely end up in terrorist warfare, in addition to dealing with radical Muslims.
quote:Originally posted by cahas
quote:Originally posted by fordsix
as we forget history we shall repete it[:0]
I must live under a rock because I never knew the statues bothered some so much until recent. Taking them down is doing much more harm than good, digging up the past in my opinion.
We're your grandfathers Confederate soldiers?
I agree with you in that taking them down is doing more harm than good. It is something that if not curbed might likely end up in terrorist warfare, in addition to dealing with radical Muslims.
Yes. GG Grandad was wounded in Spotsylvania, shot in the knee and a sabre cut to the hand.
Photo from Gallipoli taken by Mark Christian.
He visited there several years ago and had a great photo essay on the forum about this tragic battle.
Great copy and pics, Mark's story was worthy of National Geographic.
Dads are you saying that the current Turk PM has removed these words?
.
Unfortunately, Yes. The official line is that the memorial is being "revovated".
It likely was due for a good cleaning. This is what it looks like as of June of this year. Cleaning and renovation doesn't usually involve a jackhammer.
quote:Originally posted by armilite
quote:Originally posted by droptop
The North or South didn't condone, authorize or commit war crimes.
ie: No gas chambers, death camps, sneak attacks before declaring war ie: atrocities against selected peoples. The list could go on.
I would suppose those that ended up in prison camps like say Andersonville would tend to disagree with you. How ever this has nothing to do with the original posters question.
I say let them stand.
The prison ships in New York Harbor, where captured Confederates languished and died of all sorts of disease.War is made to keep simple revelations, it is hell,but when the fighting was over ,they all(most) honored their opposing forces and went home....Tell me how many Confederate Monuments are at Gettysburg? I think the "Dukes of Hazard" etc did more harm than any monument...
Even the unfinished Washington Monument was used as a hell hole prison. Andersonville was bad because the south didn't have the resources to provide for the prisoners the north refused to exchange
but the north mistreated prisoners just for meanness.
This group within our borders has set an agenda to disrupt the very roots that made our Country "the land of the free and home of the brave."
This group is using the far right against the conservative mainstream majority (silent) and labeling all of us together, white extremist's, and what I have seen of late the use of the term, white nationalists.
My personal definition of a white nationalist would be a white person who respects the United States of America, it's Constitution, it's history, and it's future.
I would be proud to wear that title.
I find what is going on with the destruction (desecration) of these historic statues to be blatant acts of treason.
This group within our borders has set an agenda to disrupt the very roots that made our Country "the land of the free and home of the brave."
This group is using the far right against the conservative mainstream majority (silent) and labeling all of us together, white extremist's, and what I have seen of late the use of the term, white nationalists.
My personal definition of a white nationalist would be a white person who respects the United States of America, it's Constitution, it's history, and it's future.
I would be proud to wear that title.
Can I get an amen!!!
But. We're not silent Brook, we're just working.
Wonderful! Spotslyvania Courthouse?
Correct, almost a two week campaign, appox. 32,000 casualties. I can not begin to imagine what that must have been like.
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
Slavery was specifically mentioned as a reason for secession by several states. It was codified. Written down. Searchable today. I do not see how the war was not about slavery. And for anyone to deny it is laughable.
See for yourself:
https://www.civilwar.org/learn/primary-sources/declaration-causes-seceding-states
Clearly you learned history at the hands of the victors. They will tell you what you want they want you to think. I expected better of you.
So your claim is the north falsified these states reasons for secession? Rewrote them?
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by CaptFun
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by randomnut
Come on folks. The war, and the soldiers fighting it, were not fighting about slavery!!!
LOL!
Look, let's get over it already. the War of Northern Aggression was about states rights NOT slavery. The industrial revolution was well along the path of rendering slavery technically and fiscally obsolete. Had the northern industrial complex not forced the South's hand something very different would have happened. I don't know what that something would have been, but it would have been very different.
Slavery was specifically mentioned as a reason for secession by several states. It was codified. Written down. Searchable today. I do not see how the war was not about slavery. And for anyone to deny it is laughable.
See for yourself:
https://www.civilwar.org/learn/primary-sources/declaration-causes-seceding-states
My Great Grand Father was asked why he fought....Because the Yankees were here, and he wanted to defend his homeland...none of my family members owned slaves, but they did take care of Negroes in their communities...before and after the war....there is a census that shows where my Grand father kept a 10 yr old black child they adopted because her parents were deceased...they were family friends....and this is in the deep south...Segregation?...sure,but not in friendship..
I don't doubt it. For many that were fighting, slavery was not their issue. But let's not kid ourselves. Slavery was a stated reason for secession.
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain