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Accidental discharge
calrugerfan
Member Posts: 18,209 ✭
Just saw on the news tonite, in our little town,Sonora a correctional officer(sargent)was adjusting his CCW holster while sitting in the theater and it went off. Went through seat and into floor. One fellow claimed to have been hit by shrapenel. Bet it was a glock
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My friend, moving, asked me to store his guns at our house for a week or so. I did not know the moron stores all guns loaded. My wife had not gotten home from work, her folks were visiting us there in Arizona, from Indiana- they were staunch liberal anti-gun types.
In the dimly-lit closet of our bedroom, holding the friend's .22 semi-auto rifle, probably something like a Glenfield, I looked through the ejection port, saw a round in the chamber, so racked the slide back & forth probably 5 or 6 times, but could not see well enough that the round did not eject. Gun pointing upward at ceiling, pulled trigger, BOOM! I set the rifle down, even a .22LR is pretty loud in a house, went out to living room, to face the music.
The 2 of them sitting side-by-side on the couch, staring at the wall, as if unseeing, said nothing; it was as though they were frozen in place. I started to explain, but gave up.
They feared guns, knew little about them, except how evil they are, and evidently were scared half to death! Lucky I didn't bust out laughing, because facing the wife's wrath after they told her about it was bad enough!
Lesson learned. Gun had a damaged extractor.
I was talking to my great uncle after a funeral yesterday and we were talking about guns (he's a retired cop). I don't know how we got on the subject, but we ended up talking about ADs. He said there are two types of gun owners, those that have HAD an AD, and those that WILL.
I looked at him a little confused and he told me that he has had one. He was cleaning his revolver and when he was done, he would dry fire it just to make sure that everything was functioning properly. He put one round in the cylinder then realized that he hadn't dry fired. He closed the cylinder and of course it lined up on the loaded chamber and BOOM, through the wall.
I was genuinely shocked. Before I ever pull the trigger, I clear the gun, even I just handled it 2 minutes earlier and I "know" its empty.
A good reminder of why you treat every gun as if it was loaded, and keep the booger hook of the bang switch.
Before I ever pull the trigger, I clear the gun, even I just handled it 2 minutes earlier and I "know" its empty.So do a lot of those people who have AD's. [;)]
quote:Originally posted by calrugerfan
Before I ever pull the trigger, I clear the gun, even I just handled it 2 minutes earlier and I "know" its empty.So do a lot of those people who have AD's. [;)]
Obviously they don't do it EVERY time. If they did, they wouldn't have an AD.
I also don't believe I ever will, although I am human, and we
are prone to flaw. There is also the posibility of mechanical
failure.
I pulled the gun apart, including the grips; and hosed it out with carb cleaner and put it back together. I never had it happen again.
I dry fire constantly for trigger control training, Nothing builds muscle memory like repetition, feeling the trigger move.
scared the crap out of me at that time[B)]those that have and those that will[:(][:0]quote:Originally posted by bpost
I had an AD with a 1911 while chambering a round thirty years ago. It went through the lip edge of a ammo can stuffed full of loose 45's, through a 3/4" thick piece of plywood, through the floor of the van and left a hell of a big dent in the gas tank. Call it what you like, it was an AD, my finger was not inside the trigger housing when it fired, I have no idea why it fired, dirt, a hunk of fuzz on the sear I have no idea.
I pulled the gun apart, including the grips; and hosed it out with carb cleaner and put it back together. I never had it happen again.
I dry fire constantly for trigger control training, Nothing builds muscle memory like repetition, feeling the trigger move.
I had an AD with a 1911 while chambering a round thirty years ago. It went through the lip edge of a ammo can stuffed full of loose 45's, through a 3/4" thick piece of plywood, through the floor of the van and left a hell of a big dent in the gas tank. Call it what you like, it was an AD, my finger was not inside the trigger housing when it fired, I have no idea why it fired, dirt, a hunk of fuzz on the sear I have no idea.
I pulled the gun apart, including the grips; and hosed it out with carb cleaner and put it back together. I never had it happen again.
I dry fire constantly for trigger control training, Nothing builds muscle memory like repetition, feeling the trigger move.
Well, if it went off without you pulling the trigger, it was an AD.
Hardly any meet that circumstance.
00 Buck shot, as we were loading up to head into the woods the little brother jumped into the back seat directly behind me (I was driving) and when he did his shotgun discharged. Needless to say I was pissed, I got out to see what had happened and discovered that he had actually blown out the back of the seat that I was sitting in leaving only a huge smoking hole and the fabric that was against my back from my waist down.
I still get shivers when I think about how close I came to being blown in half.
Joe
Negligent discharge, not accidental.
The term calrugerfan used is correct.
Negligence is in fact an element of an accident.
ac?ci?den?tal
1: arising from extrinsic causes : incidental, nonessential
2: a. occurring unexpectedly or by chance
b. happening without intent or through carelessness and often with unfortunate results.
While what you refer to is true, it's really nothing more than an old semantics game used by gun rag gurus to make them seem insightful.
quote:Originally posted by lt496
Negligent discharge, not accidental.
The term calrugerfan used is correct.
Negligence is in fact an element of an accident.
ac?ci?den?tal
1: arising from extrinsic causes : incidental, nonessential
2: a. occurring unexpectedly or by chance
b. happening without intent or through carelessness and often with unfortunate results.
While what you refer to is true, it's really nothing more than an old semantics game used by gun rag gurus to make them seem insightful.
If it make you and others feel better about being negligent to the point of unintentionally discharging a firearm, to call it an accident, knock yourself out.
If it make you and others feel better about being negligent to the point of unintentionally discharging a firearm, to call it an accident, knock yourself out.It's a matter of understanding that all accidents are preventable.
quote:Originally posted by lt496
If it make you and others feel better about being negligent to the point of unintentionally discharging a firearm, to call it an accident, knock yourself out.It's a matter of understanding that all accidents are preventable.
As it relates to firearms discharges, it is a matter of understanding mechanical failure, an accident, vs the negligence of the person holding the firearm.
One is not readily preventable and the other is.
Viola.
That said, there is no need to argue about it. I am out.
Negligent discharge, not accidental.
There two types of unintentional discharges:
Accidental- This is when the discharge is in a safe direction and there is no injury or death and little if any property damage. As an example, when at the range and the weapon is point down range.
Negligent- This is when there is an injury or death or significant property damage resulting from the unintentional discharge.
I can't believe those who profess to be 'professional trainers' keep saying ALL unintentional discharges are negligent!!![V]
quote:Originally posted by bpost
I had an AD with a 1911 while chambering a round thirty years ago. It went through the lip edge of a ammo can stuffed full of loose 45's, through a 3/4" thick piece of plywood, through the floor of the van and left a hell of a big dent in the gas tank. Call it what you like, it was an AD, my finger was not inside the trigger housing when it fired, I have no idea why it fired, dirt, a hunk of fuzz on the sear I have no idea.
I pulled the gun apart, including the grips; and hosed it out with carb cleaner and put it back together. I never had it happen again.
I dry fire constantly for trigger control training, Nothing builds muscle memory like repetition, feeling the trigger move.
quote:Originally posted by lt496
Negligent discharge, not accidental.
There two types of unintentional discharges:
Accidental- This is when the discharge is in a safe direction and there is no injury or death and little if any property damage. As an example, when at the range and the weapon is point down range.
Negligent- This is when there is an injury or death or significant property damage resulting from the unintentional discharge.
I can't believe those who profess to be 'professional trainers' keep saying ALL unintentional discharges are negligent!!![V]
If it went off via mechanical failure, it is an accidental discharge.
If it went off because of a negligent action or lapse of the handler, it is a ND.
It really is quite simple.
Injury is not the measure of negligence and I don't know why people who profess to be professionals can't simply admit this simple fact. I guess it makes one feel better if your negligence is deemed an 'accident', rather than facing up to what it really is.
Good lord, people! I never cease to be amazed at the rationalizing and justifying that goes on on these forums to excuse poor/bad actions.
Take some responsibility for god's sake. Oh, wait, we don't do that any longer in our new american society.
Here is what the UCMJ says about it...
Article 134 - (Firearm, discharging- through negligence)
Text.
See Paragraph 60.
Elements.
(1) That the accused discharged a firearm;
(2) That such discharge was caused by the negligence of the accused; and
(3) That, under the circumstances, the conduct of the accused was to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces or was of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces.
Explanation. For a discussion of negligence, see paragraph 85c(2).
Lesser included offense. . None
Maximum punishment. Confinement for 3 months and forfeiture of two-thirds pay per month for 3 months.
Definition of simple negligence:(2) Simple negligence.
Simple negligence is the absence of due care, that is, an act or omission of a person who is under a duty to use due care which exhibits a lack of that degree of care of the safety of others which a reasonably careful person would have exercised under the same or similar circumstances. Simple negligence is a lesser degree of carelessness than culpable negligence.)
lt - I thought you were out.
Not arguing with Tx about it.
I have always found it difficult to allow certain statements to stand, unchallenged.
Why? Would you prefer I leave your thread?
By the way, your uncle had a negligent discharge, as described by you.
NEVER
Negligent discharge, not accidental.
Im 50/50 on that statement!
I was born and raisedin a gun shop, one day i was out shooting on the range i had a Marlin model 60 when i finnished shooting i cleared the chamber a number of times and dryed fired it. I went back into my father shop he checked and so did my Brother in law and when my brother in law checked it and and dryed fired it, the rifle discharged, a round was stuck i the magazine tube? It does matter how many time you can check a firearm ACCIDENTS do happen!
see red above ...no such thing as "dry Firing"...you pull the trigger expect a boom
When an empty gun is dry fired it is never pointed at anything of value.
In over 65 years of playing with guns I've had a few and seen others.
Just a week ago a police officer put a 40 cal bullet through his hand and the wall of our clubhouse while dismounting a Glock slide.Of course he knew better.
He pulled the trigger on his empty gun without verifying the chamber was empty. Always double check.
My last one was dropping the striker on a Baby Browning 25 at my desk.
There's a hole in the top drawer an inch or two above my knee.
Don't be so naive as to believe it could never happen to you.
quote:Originally posted by calrugerfan
lt - I thought you were out.
Not arguing with Tx about it.
I have always found it difficult to allow certain statements to stand, unchallenged.
Why? Would you prefer I leave your thread?
By the way, your uncle had a negligent discharge, as described by you.
I don't care if you leave or not. Yes, he was negligent and accidentally discharged his weapon.
I suppose that people don't get in auto accidents either, right? The get in negligents?
quote:Originally posted by lt496
quote:Originally posted by calrugerfan
lt - I thought you were out.
Not arguing with Tx about it.
I have always found it difficult to allow certain statements to stand, unchallenged.
Why? Would you prefer I leave your thread?
By the way, your uncle had a negligent discharge, as described by you.
I don't care if you leave or not. Yes, he was negligent and accidentally discharged his weapon.
I suppose that people don't get in auto accidents either, right? The get in negligents?
Are you another who has to rationalize and justify to assuage 'something', rather than just calling negligence what it is?
A society that refuses to accept or assign individual responsibility breeds such minimizing terms.
Oh well, you call them accidents and I'll term them negligent, when mechanical failure is not the cause, but human action is.
As it relates to firearms discharges, it is a matter of understanding mechanical failure and or an accident, vs the negligence of the person holding the firearm.One is not readily preventable and the other is.
Viola.
That said, there is no need to argue about it. I am out.
Fixed.
It's not complicated: accident = negligence.
Seeing it otherwise indicates a belief that sometimes feces simply occurs and there's nothing you can do about it.
a BANG , when its supposed to go " click "
and a " click " when its supposed to go BANG .
[:o)][:o)]