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quote:Originally posted by lt496
quote:Originally posted by calrugerfan
quote:Originally posted by lt496
quote:Originally posted by calrugerfan
lt - I thought you were out.
Not arguing with Tx about it.
I have always found it difficult to allow certain statements to stand, unchallenged.
Why? Would you prefer I leave your thread?
By the way, your uncle had a negligent discharge, as described by you.
I don't care if you leave or not. Yes, he was negligent and accidentally discharged his weapon.
I suppose that people don't get in auto accidents either, right? The get in negligents?
Are you another who has to rationalize and justify to assuage 'something', rather than just calling negligence what it is?
A society that refuses to accept or assign individual responsibility breeds such minimizing terms.
Oh well, you call them accidents and I'll term them negligent, when mechanical failure is not the cause, but human action is.
I'm not rationalizing anything. I am simply smart enough to realize that negligence and accidents are not mutually exclusive. Like I said, he was negligent and accidentally discharged his weapon. That is a fact.
There is such a thing as "Dry Fire" It is taught in most of the firearms safety books. We had dry fire in the Military, where we used a pencil for a bullet. (I can explain that but takes a while}
In my shotgun courses I teach it specifically states, DRY FIRE or Dummy Fire and Live fire..It is used to determine if one is flinching from recoil..[:0] I use this process with most new shooters, act like I am loading the gun and then have them go through the motions just as if they have a live round in the gun. Usually they jump because they are anticipating the recoil when there is none. We try to break them of that habit,
Put a hole through the roof of a deer blind with a 303 Brit many years ago when my loose jacket sleeve caught on the triggger. Unexpected things can happen, that's why you always keep a firearm pointed in a safe direction.
Yes, it was negligent on my part. The gun operated exactly as it was intended, and my actions caused it to fire. I button my sleeves now.
IMO and from experience, most everybody I know has had a accidental discharge at one time or another. IMO an accident is when you accidentally dribble in your pants, negligent is when you are so drunk you can't get your pants down and do it anyway.
I use a defense in depth type of philosophy. I leave the chamber empty until I'm ready to fire as much as possible. I'm pretty darned careful where the barrel is pointed, I always assume the weapon is loaded. I never entirely trust any mechanical safety.
Murphy's law, whatever can go wrong, will go wrong, count on it, plan for it.
I used to have a bad habit, I'd assume whatever shotgun I happened to have only holds so many rounds. I'd count them as I cycled them out of my shotgun, point the barrel in a safe direction and pull the trigger. I was always taught not to store a gun with the hammer under tension. I was taught to always look in the chamber, but got lazy over the years. I pulled the trigger once and had a negligent discharge. I still remember looking in my hand with wonder and being amazed there were five shot shells in my hand and how and the heck did I ever get six in there. To this day I really don't know how I had five shells in my hand and that shotgun still fired. I tried many, many, times trying to load six in there and never succeeded again. To this day I really don't know exactly what I did, but whatever it was, it was sure enough wrong.
The best philosophy IMO is force yourself to slow down, bad stuff happens when people get hectic or hurried. Brain farts happen, hopefully redundant safety procedures will help avoid catastrophe.
quote:Originally posted by calrugerfan
I am simply smart enough to realize that negligence and accidents are not mutually exclusive. Like I said, he was negligent and accidentally discharged his weapon. That .is a fact.As with 99.9% of 'unintentional' discharges. BTDT myself.
The other 0.1% are due to mechanical failure of some kind - with even some of these also containing negligence elements stemming from poor maintenance/inspection of the gun and it's related gear.
An accident isn't an act of God. They occur because someone dropped the ball in some way.
It's being willing. I found out early that most men, regardless of cause or need, aren't willing. They blink an eye or draw a breath before they pull the trigger. I won't. ~ J.B. Books
ac?ci?dent
#8194; #8194;[ak-si-duhnt]
noun
1.
an undesirable or unfortunate happening that occurs unintentionally and usually results in harm, injury, damage, or loss; casualty; mishap: automobile accidents.
2.
Law . such a happening resulting in injury that is in no way the fault of the injured person for which compensation or indemnity is legally sought.
3.
any event that happens unexpectedly, without a deliberate plan or cause.
Based on the definition of accident, even a negligent discharge is an accident since it was not intentional, planned, or expected.
This is just another reason gun owners get a bad rap. They think that their way of thinking is the only correct way of thinking.
If people like lt focused more on building upon common ground than trying to correct semantics, people wouldn't be so turned off.
The action is negligent. The result is an accident.
NEGLIGENCE is a result ignorence or carelessness - neither of which can be construed as "no fault of your own".
It's being willing. I found out early that most men, regardless of cause or need, aren't willing. They blink an eye or draw a breath before they pull the trigger. I won't. ~ J.B. Books
quote:Originally posted by gesshots
NEGLIGENCE is a result ignorence or carelessness - neither of which can be construed as "no fault of your own".
I didn't say that it wasn't negligence. But you said that it wasn't an accident. That is false. By definition it IS an accident. They are not mutually exclusive.
quote:Originally posted by redneckandy
I had one, with a 1911.(Anyone else seeing a pattern here?) Lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber. My finger slipped.
If you are implying that the 1911 isn't safe I'll have to disagree. When handled\used as designed it is one of the safest designs. That being said, the 1911 is designed to be carried cocked and locked. I have never, nor seen the need to lower the hammer on a loaded chamber. That action creates an unsafe condition that is quite unnecesary and preventable!
I've had two accidental discharges (okay, "negligent") in the past 20 years. Both while I'm lowering the hammer on a handgun (yes, one was a 1911; the other was a Ruger SA .22). Bottom line: muzzle control. I'm glad I instinctively had the muzzle pointed in a safe direction.
Oddly, during my military time I handled a variety of firearms under a variety of circumstances, and I never had a DA then. THAT was luck!
I can't believe how many of you are a bunch of "holier than thou" little old ladies arguing over the back fence over YOUR definition of what types of discharges should be defined as accidental and which should be called negligent. You all know what the other guy means but you can't let it go because YOU have to win the argument. Things must be REALLY slow today. [:D][:D][;)]
quote:Originally posted by PATBUZZARD
quote:Originally posted by redneckandy
I had one, with a 1911.(Anyone else seeing a pattern here?) Lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber. My finger slipped.
If you are implying that the 1911 isn't safe I'll have to disagree. When handled\used as designed it is one of the safest designs. That being said, the 1911 is designed to be carried cocked and locked. I have never, nor seen the need to lower the hammer on a loaded chamber. That action creates an unsafe condition that is quite unnecesary and preventable!
I'm not saying it isn't a safe design, what I am saying is out of the few posts that were not arguing the difference between accidental and negligent five of the unintentional discharges were with the 1911 style pistol.
quote:Originally posted by redneckandy
quote:Originally posted by PATBUZZARD
quote:Originally posted by redneckandy
I had one, with a 1911.(Anyone else seeing a pattern here?) Lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber. My finger slipped.
If you are implying that the 1911 isn't safe I'll have to disagree. When handled\used as designed it is one of the safest designs. That being said, the 1911 is designed to be carried cocked and locked. I have never, nor seen the need to lower the hammer on a loaded chamber. That action creates an unsafe condition that is quite unnecesary and preventable!
I'm not saying it isn't a safe design, what I am saying is out of the few posts that were not arguing the difference between accidental and negligent five of the unintentional discharges were with the 1911 style pistol.
They must be evil like pitbulls. [:D] Actually, I think it's because people are trying to carry them in a way other than intended (i.e. lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber).
...I had an SD...(stupid discharge). I'd shot a couple .38's from my office door with a Taurus double action. I had the hammer back and changed my mind. I went to lower the hammer as I turned toward my desk and my thumb slipped. Resulted in a hole in the counter above my desk, hole in door to back office and lodged in a window casing.
...A good scare without anyone hurt is a powerful teaching method. By the way, I was all alone in my office, thankfully.
...I have a rule at my house; If I get muzzle swept once, you'll get a stern warning. A second time, and you'll be asked to either leave or become a spectator.
quote:Originally posted by lt496
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
quote:Originally posted by lt496
Negligent discharge, not accidental.
There two types of unintentional discharges:
Accidental- This is when the discharge is in a safe direction and there is no injury or death and little if any property damage. As an example, when at the range and the weapon is point down range.
Negligent- This is when there is an injury or death or significant property damage resulting from the unintentional discharge.
I can't believe those who profess to be 'professional trainers' keep saying ALL unintentional discharges are negligent!!![V]
If it went off via mechanical failure, it is an accidental discharge.
If it went off because of a negligent action or lapse of the handler, it is a ND.
It really is quite simple.
Injury is not the measure of negligence and I don't know why people who profess to be professionals can't simply admit this simple fact. I guess it makes one feel better if your negligence is deemed an 'accident', rather than facing up to what it really is.
Good lord, people! I never cease to be amazed at the rationalizing and justifying that goes on on these forums to excuse poor/bad actions.
Take some responsibility for god's sake. Oh, wait, we don't do that any longer in our new american society.
Here is what the UCMJ says about it...
Article 134 - (Firearm, discharging- through negligence)
Text.
See Paragraph 60.
Elements.
(1) That the accused discharged a firearm;
(2) That such discharge was caused by the negligence of the accused; and
(3) That, under the circumstances, the conduct of the accused was to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces or was of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces.
Explanation. For a discussion of negligence, see paragraph 85c(2).
Lesser included offense. . None
Maximum punishment. Confinement for 3 months and forfeiture of two-thirds pay per month for 3 months.
Definition of simple negligence:(2) Simple negligence.
Simple negligence is the absence of due care, that is, an act or omission of a person who is under a duty to use due care which exhibits a lack of that degree of care of the safety of others which a reasonably careful person would have exercised under the same or similar circumstances. Simple negligence is a lesser degree of carelessness than culpable negligence.)
In the real world it is Jeff. If you have ever had an unintentional discharge you feel lower than whale kaka and you do not need to be put down an lower unless you have an ND, not an AD (described below). If you were handling the gun while observing the most important rule of gun handling (keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction) it is an AD. If you do not keep the muzzle in a safe direction it is an ND.
[;)]
A few years ago I had a Remington 788 in 243 go off accidentally.
I was in a deer stand at dark thirty in the am.
My practice was to rest the gun on the seat between my legs pointing up. holding a flashlight between my teeth, I insert a three round mag.,chamber a round, put the safety on, open the rear scope cap and set it in the corner. BUT this time when I moved the safety foreward the gun went off! some permanent hearing loss and a ringing that never stops. And a small hole near the roof.
Took it to the gun shop and it turns out there were a couple of loose screws in the trigger group.
Lesson learned. Deer guns need to be dismantled and inspected yearly. Not just cleaned
quote:Originally posted by lt496
[:D][:)][;)]Correctly, if it's not a completely unforeseen mechanical failure it's accidental.
They all involve negligence. Just because you see an accident which involved gross negligence doesn't somehow put it in a category all it's own.
Negligence is negligence, whether it involves pulling a trigger while assuming the chamber's empty or something as simple as choosing an inadequate holster.
Winchester 1400 semi auto.... Was starting process of unloading to clean, since deer season was over... I racked it, phone rung, i picked up phone, put phone down, preceeded to pick up shotgun, must of touch trigger and well it went off at about a 40 degree angle... Couldve swore i got all shells out but there was one in chamber...Its amazing what a 1oz slug can do.. went thru 8 of the wifes robes hanging on bathroom door, bathroom door, bathrom door frame of 2 2x4s thru wall thru the shower exiting thru another 2x4 at cieling then thru that wall thru a gutter then i dont know.... Damn drywall makes a mess.... I bout pissed my pants.... Neverheard the end of it from the wife.. But lesson learned... always double and triple check....
quote:Originally posted by strokn47265
Winchester 1400 semi auto.... Was starting process of unloading to clean, since deer season was over... I racked it, phone rung, i picked up phone, put phone down, preceeded to pick up shotgun, must of touch trigger and well it went off at about a 40 degree angle... Couldve swore i got all shells out but there was one in chamber...Its amazing what a 1oz slug can do.. went thru 8 of the wifes robes hanging on bathroom door, bathroom door, bathrom door frame of 2 2x4s thru wall thru the shower exiting thru another 2x4 at cieling then thru that wall thru a gutter then i dont know.... Damn drywall makes a mess.... I bout pissed my pants.... Neverheard the end of it from the wife.. But lesson learned... always double and triple check....
This proves you are human sir, unlike some here who are above the failings of the rest of us!!!![;)]
If I had done what he did, or ever do what he did, and it results in a boom instead of a snap I'll feel negligent myself. I'll also probably feel sticky in my negligees as well.[:D]
See your Doctor, they have "shots" for this condition. [;)][:D]
It's being willing. I found out early that most men, regardless of cause or need, aren't willing. They blink an eye or draw a breath before they pull the trigger. I won't. ~ J.B. Books
I watched in amazement a YouTube video of some dork making a passioned case for carrying Condition One. In the first minute of the video he touched his fingertip to the end of the barrel of a cocked & lock gun, released the mag, then pointed the gun across his forearm, then racked the slide to eject the round in the pipe.
I'm all for C1 on the right gun, but that dipsheet is too stupid to be trusted with a water hose.
Comments
quote:Originally posted by calrugerfan
quote:Originally posted by lt496
quote:Originally posted by calrugerfan
lt - I thought you were out.
Not arguing with Tx about it.
I have always found it difficult to allow certain statements to stand, unchallenged.
Why? Would you prefer I leave your thread?
By the way, your uncle had a negligent discharge, as described by you.
I don't care if you leave or not. Yes, he was negligent and accidentally discharged his weapon.
I suppose that people don't get in auto accidents either, right? The get in negligents?
Are you another who has to rationalize and justify to assuage 'something', rather than just calling negligence what it is?
A society that refuses to accept or assign individual responsibility breeds such minimizing terms.
Oh well, you call them accidents and I'll term them negligent, when mechanical failure is not the cause, but human action is.
I'm not rationalizing anything. I am simply smart enough to realize that negligence and accidents are not mutually exclusive. Like I said, he was negligent and accidentally discharged his weapon. That is a fact.
In my shotgun courses I teach it specifically states, DRY FIRE or Dummy Fire and Live fire..It is used to determine if one is flinching from recoil..[:0] I use this process with most new shooters, act like I am loading the gun and then have them go through the motions just as if they have a live round in the gun. Usually they jump because they are anticipating the recoil when there is none. We try to break them of that habit,
Yes, it was negligent on my part. The gun operated exactly as it was intended, and my actions caused it to fire. I button my sleeves now.
I use a defense in depth type of philosophy. I leave the chamber empty until I'm ready to fire as much as possible. I'm pretty darned careful where the barrel is pointed, I always assume the weapon is loaded. I never entirely trust any mechanical safety.
Murphy's law, whatever can go wrong, will go wrong, count on it, plan for it.
I used to have a bad habit, I'd assume whatever shotgun I happened to have only holds so many rounds. I'd count them as I cycled them out of my shotgun, point the barrel in a safe direction and pull the trigger. I was always taught not to store a gun with the hammer under tension. I was taught to always look in the chamber, but got lazy over the years. I pulled the trigger once and had a negligent discharge. I still remember looking in my hand with wonder and being amazed there were five shot shells in my hand and how and the heck did I ever get six in there. To this day I really don't know how I had five shells in my hand and that shotgun still fired. I tried many, many, times trying to load six in there and never succeeded again. To this day I really don't know exactly what I did, but whatever it was, it was sure enough wrong.
The best philosophy IMO is force yourself to slow down, bad stuff happens when people get hectic or hurried. Brain farts happen, hopefully redundant safety procedures will help avoid catastrophe.
I am simply smart enough to realize that negligence and accidents are not mutually exclusive. Like I said, he was negligent and accidentally discharged his weapon. That .is a fact.As with 99.9% of 'unintentional' discharges. BTDT myself.
The other 0.1% are due to mechanical failure of some kind - with even some of these also containing negligence elements stemming from poor maintenance/inspection of the gun and it's related gear.
An accident isn't an act of God. They occur because someone dropped the ball in some way.
Accidental discharge......negligent discharge......whatever.
Both are the unintentional discharge of a firearm.
One is more prone than the other.
And both are an accident. [:D]
NEGLIGENCE IS NOT AN ACCIDENT!
So you are negligent on purpose?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/accident
ac?ci?dent
#8194; #8194;[ak-si-duhnt]
noun
1.
an undesirable or unfortunate happening that occurs unintentionally and usually results in harm, injury, damage, or loss; casualty; mishap: automobile accidents.
2.
Law . such a happening resulting in injury that is in no way the fault of the injured person for which compensation or indemnity is legally sought.
3.
any event that happens unexpectedly, without a deliberate plan or cause.
Based on the definition of accident, even a negligent discharge is an accident since it was not intentional, planned, or expected.
This is just another reason gun owners get a bad rap. They think that their way of thinking is the only correct way of thinking.
If people like lt focused more on building upon common ground than trying to correct semantics, people wouldn't be so turned off.
The action is negligent. The result is an accident.
NEGLIGENCE is a result ignorence or carelessness - neither of which can be construed as "no fault of your own".
I didn't say that it wasn't negligence. But you said that it wasn't an accident. That is false. By definition it IS an accident. They are not mutually exclusive.
I had one, with a 1911.(Anyone else seeing a pattern here?) Lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber. My finger slipped.
If you are implying that the 1911 isn't safe I'll have to disagree. When handled\used as designed it is one of the safest designs. That being said, the 1911 is designed to be carried cocked and locked. I have never, nor seen the need to lower the hammer on a loaded chamber. That action creates an unsafe condition that is quite unnecesary and preventable!
Oddly, during my military time I handled a variety of firearms under a variety of circumstances, and I never had a DA then. THAT was luck!
I never dry fire a gun
Me neither.
quote:Originally posted by redneckandy
I had one, with a 1911.(Anyone else seeing a pattern here?) Lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber. My finger slipped.
If you are implying that the 1911 isn't safe I'll have to disagree. When handled\used as designed it is one of the safest designs. That being said, the 1911 is designed to be carried cocked and locked. I have never, nor seen the need to lower the hammer on a loaded chamber. That action creates an unsafe condition that is quite unnecesary and preventable!
I'm not saying it isn't a safe design, what I am saying is out of the few posts that were not arguing the difference between accidental and negligent five of the unintentional discharges were with the 1911 style pistol.
quote:Originally posted by PATBUZZARD
quote:Originally posted by redneckandy
I had one, with a 1911.(Anyone else seeing a pattern here?) Lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber. My finger slipped.
If you are implying that the 1911 isn't safe I'll have to disagree. When handled\used as designed it is one of the safest designs. That being said, the 1911 is designed to be carried cocked and locked. I have never, nor seen the need to lower the hammer on a loaded chamber. That action creates an unsafe condition that is quite unnecesary and preventable!
I'm not saying it isn't a safe design, what I am saying is out of the few posts that were not arguing the difference between accidental and negligent five of the unintentional discharges were with the 1911 style pistol.
They must be evil like pitbulls. [:D] Actually, I think it's because people are trying to carry them in a way other than intended (i.e. lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber).
...A good scare without anyone hurt is a powerful teaching method. By the way, I was all alone in my office, thankfully.
...I have a rule at my house; If I get muzzle swept once, you'll get a stern warning. A second time, and you'll be asked to either leave or become a spectator.
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
quote:Originally posted by lt496
Negligent discharge, not accidental.
There two types of unintentional discharges:
Accidental- This is when the discharge is in a safe direction and there is no injury or death and little if any property damage. As an example, when at the range and the weapon is point down range.
Negligent- This is when there is an injury or death or significant property damage resulting from the unintentional discharge.
I can't believe those who profess to be 'professional trainers' keep saying ALL unintentional discharges are negligent!!![V]
If it went off via mechanical failure, it is an accidental discharge.
If it went off because of a negligent action or lapse of the handler, it is a ND.
It really is quite simple.
Injury is not the measure of negligence and I don't know why people who profess to be professionals can't simply admit this simple fact. I guess it makes one feel better if your negligence is deemed an 'accident', rather than facing up to what it really is.
Good lord, people! I never cease to be amazed at the rationalizing and justifying that goes on on these forums to excuse poor/bad actions.
Take some responsibility for god's sake. Oh, wait, we don't do that any longer in our new american society.
Here is what the UCMJ says about it...
Article 134 - (Firearm, discharging- through negligence)
Text.
See Paragraph 60.
Elements.
(1) That the accused discharged a firearm;
(2) That such discharge was caused by the negligence of the accused; and
(3) That, under the circumstances, the conduct of the accused was to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces or was of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces.
Explanation. For a discussion of negligence, see paragraph 85c(2).
Lesser included offense. . None
Maximum punishment. Confinement for 3 months and forfeiture of two-thirds pay per month for 3 months.
Definition of simple negligence:(2) Simple negligence.
Simple negligence is the absence of due care, that is, an act or omission of a person who is under a duty to use due care which exhibits a lack of that degree of care of the safety of others which a reasonably careful person would have exercised under the same or similar circumstances. Simple negligence is a lesser degree of carelessness than culpable negligence.)
In the real world it is Jeff. If you have ever had an unintentional discharge you feel lower than whale kaka and you do not need to be put down an lower unless you have an ND, not an AD (described below). If you were handling the gun while observing the most important rule of gun handling (keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction) it is an AD. If you do not keep the muzzle in a safe direction it is an ND.
[;)]
I was in a deer stand at dark thirty in the am.
My practice was to rest the gun on the seat between my legs pointing up. holding a flashlight between my teeth, I insert a three round mag.,chamber a round, put the safety on, open the rear scope cap and set it in the corner. BUT this time when I moved the safety foreward the gun went off! some permanent hearing loss and a ringing that never stops. And a small hole near the roof.
Took it to the gun shop and it turns out there were a couple of loose screws in the trigger group.
Lesson learned. Deer guns need to be dismantled and inspected yearly. Not just cleaned
[img][/img]
[:D][:)][;)]
[img][/img]
You nailed this one Jeff!!!!This one is a perfect example of an ND!!!![;)]
[:D][:)][;)]Correctly, if it's not a completely unforeseen mechanical failure it's accidental.
They all involve negligence. Just because you see an accident which involved gross negligence doesn't somehow put it in a category all it's own.
Negligence is negligence, whether it involves pulling a trigger while assuming the chamber's empty or something as simple as choosing an inadequate holster.
Winchester 1400 semi auto.... Was starting process of unloading to clean, since deer season was over... I racked it, phone rung, i picked up phone, put phone down, preceeded to pick up shotgun, must of touch trigger and well it went off at about a 40 degree angle... Couldve swore i got all shells out but there was one in chamber...Its amazing what a 1oz slug can do.. went thru 8 of the wifes robes hanging on bathroom door, bathroom door, bathrom door frame of 2 2x4s thru wall thru the shower exiting thru another 2x4 at cieling then thru that wall thru a gutter then i dont know.... Damn drywall makes a mess.... I bout pissed my pants.... Neverheard the end of it from the wife.. But lesson learned... always double and triple check....
This proves you are human sir, unlike some here who are above the failings of the rest of us!!!![;)]
See your Doctor, they have "shots" for this condition. [;)][:D]
I'm all for C1 on the right gun, but that dipsheet is too stupid to be trusted with a water hose.