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Union dues and mandatory healthcare premiums

scottm21166scottm21166 Member Posts: 20,723
edited February 2011 in General Discussion
It occurs to me, there are alot o union members here. I know we like to back unions as a group because we remember they brought us out of the over worked underpaid era in america...or at least we think they did. What hey really did, was price us as employee's right out f a job.
Not because everyone took their business ofshore but because companies figured out it was cheaper and easier in the long run to creat machines to do the things we used to do by hand.
No it takes two people working full time to have the same thing we had when dad went to work and mom stayed home to raise us right.
Bt the question I have is this. If it is unconstitutional for the government to demand us to pay for health insurance why is it constitutiional for a union to demand we join them to work a job?
I can't work in a trade without being in a union, not a truck driver, teacher, fisherman. I can't even take a job as a ditch digger without joining a union...How is that right?
And what have unions done for us lately (besides drive our employers out of business)
The free market should determine salary and benefits for everyone then maybe people would actually focus in school insead of waiting for a legecy membership in the local union.
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Comments

  • the middlethe middle Member Posts: 3,089
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by scottm21166
    It occurs to me, there are alot o union members here. I know we like to back unions as a group because we remember they brought us out of the over worked underpaid era in america...or at least we think they did. What hey really did, was price us as employee's right out f a job.
    Not because everyone took their business ofshore but because companies figured out it was cheaper and easier in the long run to creat machines to do the things we used to do by hand.
    No it takes two people working full time to have the same thing we had when dad went to work and mom stayed home to raise us right.
    Bt the question I have is this. If it is unconstitutional for the government to demand us to pay for health insurance why is it constitutiional for a union to demand we join them to work a job?
    I can't work in a trade without being in a union, not a truck driver, teacher, fisherman. I can't even take a job as a ditch digger without joining a union...How is that right?
    And what have unions done for us lately (besides drive our employers out of business)
    The free market should determine salary and benefits for everyone then maybe people would actually focus in school insead of waiting for a legecy membership in the local union.



    first, unions didnt drive all employers out of business! Unions may have helped some along, as one problem in many (like GM)but I cant agree that its always the unions fault!

    Second, on your question on what as a union done for you lately? Well Ill tell ya. you have partly answered that by mentioning the overworked, underpaid era......what that era back???? Youll get it if the unions are destroyed!! Maybe not at first, but within 5 years you would see a whole lot of labor laws get rolled back, starting with the 40 hour work week! Then safety would go out the window, and so forth and so on. The unions are the only check and balance to big business and hugh corps. unions are the ONLY voice working people have wheather union or non-union. You should already know you cant trust Government for anything. It wont look out for you!


    Third, progress is the reason that a job that used to take lots of people to do are now done by machine. Thats only good business, machines dont need lunch, breaks, vacations, or get sick. unions had NOTHING to do with this!!!


    forth, not all unions are the same, some are better than others, and some locals are better than others within a union! you should join one, you might find that you like it, if you dont, quit, no one is going to keep you there with a gun to your head! My union has made it possible for my wife to stay at home and raise my kid the way it is supposed to be!!!

    fifth, the free market does determine wages in a union like it does everyone else!! Strikes now days are rare, dispite what faux news tells you!! (my local hasnt had one in over 40 years!) The union/managment relationship now is more about cooperation than hostility! NO one wins a strike and both sides know this!


    sixth, in some states you dont have to join a union if you dont want to! they are right to work (for less) states, but the average wage in those states is a lot lower than closed shop states, which I dont think is a good thing but that another subject!
  • the middlethe middle Member Posts: 3,089
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by the middle
    quote:Originally posted by scottm21166
    It occurs to me, there are alot o union members here. I know we like to back unions as a group because we remember they brought us out of the over worked underpaid era in america...or at least we think they did. What hey really did, was price us as employee's right out f a job.
    Not because everyone took their business ofshore but because companies figured out it was cheaper and easier in the long run to creat machines to do the things we used to do by hand.
    No it takes two people working full time to have the same thing we had when dad went to work and mom stayed home to raise us right.
    Bt the question I have is this. If it is unconstitutional for the government to demand us to pay for health insurance why is it constitutiional for a union to demand we join them to work a job?
    I can't work in a trade without being in a union, not a truck driver, teacher, fisherman. I can't even take a job as a ditch digger without joining a union...How is that right?
    And what have unions done for us lately (besides drive our employers out of business)
    The free market should determine salary and benefits for everyone then maybe people would actually focus in school insead of waiting for a legecy membership in the local union.



    first, unions didnt drive all employers out of business! Unions may have helped some along, as one problem in many (like GM)but I cant agree that its always the unions fault!

    Second, on your question on what as a union done for you lately? Well Ill tell ya. you have partly answered that by mentioning the overworked, underpaid era......want that era back???? Youll get it if the unions are destroyed!! Maybe not at first, but within 5 years you would see a whole lot of labor laws get rolled back, starting with the 40 hour work week! Then safety would go out the window, and so forth and so on. The unions are the only check and balance to big business and hugh corps. unions are the ONLY voice working people have wheather union or non-union. You should already know you cant trust Government for anything. It wont look out for you!


    Third, progress is the reason that a job that used to take lots of people to do are now done by machine. Thats only good business, machines dont need lunch, breaks, vacations, or get sick. unions had NOTHING to do with this!!!


    forth, not all unions are the same, some are better than others, and some locals are better than others within a union! you should join one, you might find that you like it, if you dont, quit, no one is going to keep you there with a gun to your head! My union has made it possible for my wife to stay at home and raise my kid the way it is supposed to be!!!

    fifth, the free market does determine wages in a union like it does everyone else!! Strikes now days are rare, dispite what faux news tells you!! (my local hasnt had one in over 40 years!) The union/managment relationship now is more about cooperation than hostility! NO one wins a strike and both sides know this!


    sixth, in some states you dont have to join a union if you dont want to! they are right to work (for less) states, but the average wage in those states is a lot lower than closed shop states, which I dont think is a good thing but that another subject!
  • reloader44magreloader44mag Member Posts: 18,783 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by the middle
    quote:Originally posted by scottm21166
    It occurs to me, there are alot o union members here. I know we like to back unions as a group because we remember they brought us out of the over worked underpaid era in america...or at least we think they did. What hey really did, was price us as employee's right out f a job.
    Not because everyone took their business ofshore but because companies figured out it was cheaper and easier in the long run to creat machines to do the things we used to do by hand.
    No it takes two people working full time to have the same thing we had when dad went to work and mom stayed home to raise us right.
    Bt the question I have is this. If it is unconstitutional for the government to demand us to pay for health insurance why is it constitutiional for a union to demand we join them to work a job?
    I can't work in a trade without being in a union, not a truck driver, teacher, fisherman. I can't even take a job as a ditch digger without joining a union...How is that right?
    And what have unions done for us lately (besides drive our employers out of business)
    The free market should determine salary and benefits for everyone then maybe people would actually focus in school insead of waiting for a legecy membership in the local union.



    first, unions didnt drive all employers out of business! Unions may have helped some along, as one problem in many (like GM)but I cant agree that its always the unions fault!

    Second, on your question on what as a union done for you lately? Well Ill tell ya. you have partly answered that by mentioning the overworked, underpaid era......what that era back???? Youll get it if the unions are destroyed!! Maybe not at first, but within 5 years you would see a whole lot of labor laws get rolled back, starting with the 40 hour work week! Then safety would go out the window, and so forth and so on. The unions are the only check and balance to big business and hugh corps. unions are the ONLY voice working people have wheather union or non-union. You should already know you cant trust Government for anything. It wont look out for you!


    Third, progress is the reason that a job that used to take lots of people to do are now done by machine. Thats only good business, machines dont need lunch, breaks, vacations, or get sick. unions had NOTHING to do with this!!!


    forth, not all unions are the same, some are better than others, and some locals are better than others within a union! you should join one, you might find that you like it, if you dont, quit, no one is going to keep you there with a gun to your head! My union has made it possible for my wife to stay at home and raise my kid the way it is supposed to be!!!

    fifth, the free market does determine wages in a union like it does everyone else!! Strikes now days are rare, dispite what faux news tells you!! (my local hasnt had one in over 40 years!) The union/managment relationship now is more about cooperation than hostility! NO one wins a strike and both sides know this!


    sixth, in some states you dont have to join a union if you dont want to! they are right to work (for less) states, but the average wage in those states is a lot lower than closed shop states, which I dont think is a good thing but that another subject!
    +100..."the middle" knows what he/she is talking about[:)]
  • the middlethe middle Member Posts: 3,089
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by reloader44mag
    quote:Originally posted by the middle
    quote:Originally posted by scottm21166
    It occurs to me, there are alot o union members here. I know we like to back unions as a group because we remember they brought us out of the over worked underpaid era in america...or at least we think they did. What hey really did, was price us as employee's right out f a job.
    Not because everyone took their business ofshore but because companies figured out it was cheaper and easier in the long run to creat machines to do the things we used to do by hand.
    No it takes two people working full time to have the same thing we had when dad went to work and mom stayed home to raise us right.
    Bt the question I have is this. If it is unconstitutional for the government to demand us to pay for health insurance why is it constitutiional for a union to demand we join them to work a job?
    I can't work in a trade without being in a union, not a truck driver, teacher, fisherman. I can't even take a job as a ditch digger without joining a union...How is that right?
    And what have unions done for us lately (besides drive our employers out of business)
    The free market should determine salary and benefits for everyone then maybe people would actually focus in school insead of waiting for a legecy membership in the local union.



    first, unions didnt drive all employers out of business! Unions may have helped some along, as one problem in many (like GM)but I cant agree that its always the unions fault!

    Second, on your question on what as a union done for you lately? Well Ill tell ya. you have partly answered that by mentioning the overworked, underpaid era......what that era back???? Youll get it if the unions are destroyed!! Maybe not at first, but within 5 years you would see a whole lot of labor laws get rolled back, starting with the 40 hour work week! Then safety would go out the window, and so forth and so on. The unions are the only check and balance to big business and hugh corps. unions are the ONLY voice working people have wheather union or non-union. You should already know you cant trust Government for anything. It wont look out for you!


    Third, progress is the reason that a job that used to take lots of people to do are now done by machine. Thats only good business, machines dont need lunch, breaks, vacations, or get sick. unions had NOTHING to do with this!!!


    forth, not all unions are the same, some are better than others, and some locals are better than others within a union! you should join one, you might find that you like it, if you dont, quit, no one is going to keep you there with a gun to your head! My union has made it possible for my wife to stay at home and raise my kid the way it is supposed to be!!!

    fifth, the free market does determine wages in a union like it does everyone else!! Strikes now days are rare, dispite what faux news tells you!! (my local hasnt had one in over 40 years!) The union/managment relationship now is more about cooperation than hostility! NO one wins a strike and both sides know this!


    sixth, in some states you dont have to join a union if you dont want to! they are right to work (for less) states, but the average wage in those states is a lot lower than closed shop states, which I dont think is a good thing but that another subject!
    +100..."the middle" knows what he/she is talking about[:)]



    Its a HE and thank you
  • footlongfootlong Member Posts: 8,009
    edited November -1
    snottie-0bviously you know NOTHING about what you are talking .Unions made this country great and strong. By setting tandards for both employee and employer. By spreading the wealth EVENLY through the populace. The BANKS with their preaching of FREE money, INSTANT staisfaction is what ruined our country. Your ancestors left the world of the rich man in the old country in order for a better life. Now you have brought his philosophy and his GOD money here. You want to enslave the poor man here just as you did in Europe 200 years ago. Keep it up snottie. He will rise up here and rebel as he is doing in the Middle East now[:(!]
  • SCOUT5SCOUT5 Member Posts: 16,181 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    In Indiana we are debating a new right to work bill. A Right to Work law would simply outlaw the collection of forced union dues and forced union entry.

    Over the past decade, private-sector employment fell by 8.8% in Indiana, but increased by 3.7% in Right to Work states.

    Also, over the past decade, real personal income in Right to Work states grew by nearly 30% -- more than three-and-a-half times that of Indiana. There is many factors in real income, salary is only one of them. Cost of living, taxes, union dues are only a few of them. Right to work states are out performing closed shop states in this area.

    Business does not have to contract with the union, except for government interference which makes it really hard in many states. Government should not be in bed with labor or business. Government should make no laws restricting the free market or manipulate taxes to depress it. When the government "gives business a break" it amounts to lowering already punishing taxes, that is not a break.

    If the union has a good deal to offer then the employee will sign on, if not he will not. If the union does it's job, manages well, insures quality performance it can be in the companies business interest to contract with them. If the union runs a fair program, and members benefit from joining it can be in the employees best interest to do so.

    It makes the union responsible to both the company and the union members. Decreases waste, fraud, and abuse. It creates an environment in which the unions markets it's self to both the company and employees. Forced union entry and forced dues does none of these things.

    This does not take away collective bargaining. It does place it in proper prospective and forces the unions to market themselves in a free market.

    Unions, when done correctly can be a very good thing for both the employees and the company. Give an employee a choice, how does that hurt a well run fairly run union? It doesn't. It does hurt a corrupt top heavy union and that is why unions leaders are so against the right to work concept.

    What are the unions really scared of? Their own performance is what.

    There are a lot of trade offs both ways. Be up to the union to make it worth while.

    IMO, in the long run the competition and balance will strengthen unions. The free market will accomplish what corruption and power can never do.

    Also with out the protective government bond that currently exist and participation in the free market (without government interference and manipulation) the socialist leanings of the unions and their members will begin to evaporate.

    You have seen me type: Buy Union made = support socialism

    Unions contribute money, man hours and votes to socialist candidates. By doing this unions have become a threat to liberty in this country. Unions are willing to sacrifice personal liberty for government protection. It doesn't have or need to be this way. We can have both unions and free market without the move to socialism the unions currently support.

    In a free market well manages unions based on sound principles will thrive and the others will fail. In the long run unions will be stronger than ever and they will not need to be in bed with socialist politicians to do it.
  • footlongfootlong Member Posts: 8,009
    edited November -1
    Union simply mans--together. There is strength in numbers. Rich people want to keep it ALL for themselves. The BANKS are the ones to blame with their FREE money
  • lpaalplpaalp Member Posts: 951 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:In Indiana we are debating a new right to work bill. A Right to Work law would simply outlaw the collection of forced union dues and forced union entry.

    Over the past decade, private-sector employment fell by 8.8% in Indiana, but increased by 3.7% in Right to Work states.

    Also, over the past decade, real personal income in Right to Work states grew by nearly 30% -- more than three-and-a-half times that of Indiana. There is many factors in real income, salary is only one of them. Cost of living, taxes, union dues are only a few of them. Right to work states are out performing closed shop states in this area.

    Business does not have to contract with the union, except for government interference which makes it really hard in many states. Government should not be in bed with labor or business. Government should make no laws restricting the free market or manipulate taxes to depress it. When the government "gives business a break" it amounts to lowering already punishing taxes, that is not a break.

    If the union has a good deal to offer then the employee will sign on, if not he will not. If the union does it's job, manages well, insures quality performance it can be in the companies business interest to contract with them. If the union runs a fair program, and members benefit from joining it can be in the employees best interest to do so.

    It makes the union responsible to both the company and the union members. Decreases waste, fraud, and abuse. It creates an environment in which the unions markets it's self to both the company and employees. Forced union entry and forced dues does none of these things.

    This does not take away collective bargaining. It does place it in proper prospective and forces the unions to market themselves in a free market.

    Unions, when done correctly can be a very good thing for both the employees and the company. Give an employee a choice, how does that hurt a well run fairly run union? It doesn't. It does hurt a corrupt top heavy union and that is why unions leaders are so against the right to work concept.

    What are the unions really scared of? Their own performance is what.

    There are a lot of trade offs both ways. Be up to the union to make it worth while.

    IMO, in the long run the competition and balance will strengthen unions. The free market will accomplish what corruption and power can never do.

    Also with out the protective government bond that currently exist and participation in the free market (without government interference and manipulation) the socialist leanings of the unions and their members will begin to evaporate.

    You have seen me type: Buy Union made = support socialism

    Unions contribute money, man hours and votes to socialist candidates. By doing this unions have become a threat to liberty in this country. Unions are willing to sacrifice personal liberty for government protection. It doesn't have or need to be this way. We can have both unions and free market without the move to socialism the unions currently support.

    In a free market well manages unions based on sound principles will thrive and the others will fail. In the long run unions will be stronger than ever and they will not need to be in bed with socialist politicians to do it. Well said.
  • Fred1911Fred1911 Member Posts: 50 ✭✭
    edited November -1
  • Horse Plains DrifterHorse Plains Drifter Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 40,167 ***** Forums Admin
    edited November -1
    quote:Bt the question I have is this. If it is unconstitutional for the government to demand us to pay for health insurance why is it constitutiional for a union to demand we join them to work a job?
    I can't work in a trade without being in a union, not a truck driver, teacher, fisherman. I can't even take a job as a ditch digger without joining a union...How is that right?
    Plenty of places for you to work should you choose not to join a union.

    the middle's and SCOUT5's posts are well put together.
  • MMOMEQ-55MMOMEQ-55 Member Posts: 13,134
    edited November -1
    I saw first hand where the unions caused the steel mills and coal mines to shut down in Pa. back in the early 80s. The steel workers were making $25.00 an hour with 4 weeks payed vacation and a weeks worth of sick leave. The unions said they wanted more and tried to go on strike. The owners of the steel mills said enough is enough and moved over seas.

    My experience with the carpenters union is that that union was for lazy men. I was in that union for a short period of time and got out real fast. Never again.
  • scottm21166scottm21166 Member Posts: 20,723
    edited November -1
    middle, thanks for taking the time to give us the union speech, you know it well enough to be shop steward! I know there are people who have had good experience with unions (my dad was a teamster when I was growing up and he was like middle, a union man) but some have not had a good experience with union membership.
    I was thinking, three jobs I have had required union membership to work there. 2 of them were seasonal jobs so I enjoyed the seniority of getting my position back when a new job came up. On the other hand, they took my premiums even when I wasn't working, They took us out on strike and made us miss a whole fishing season (cost me personally, 100 grand)
    How have unions done something for the employee while helping the employer? And don't tell me that business owners don't look for ways to trim employees, they do a cost benefit analysis quarterly and if they can find a machine that will replace workers they do it. That's why so many of the jobs lost in this last (and continuing) recession
    are never coming back, EVER! It is one of the reasons so many American companies have either sold to foreign entities or moved their plants offshore. That is a fact. Unions are not the only reason but they are a major contributing factor.
    It doesn't help that the government is giving tax breaks for purchasing new equipment instead of for bringing their manufacturing back to the US and hiring the unemployed.
    One of my ex GF's works for Boeing. She's in the machinists union (as is her ex husband) and it has worked out well for her so far. They have only gone on strike once (for 4 months) and threatened one other time in the three years of her tenure. She will never earn back the money that strike cost her personally.
    On the other hand, Trumpka does talk to the whitehouse every day and maybe he had something to do with Boeing getting that new contract for in-flight refueling tankers that was initially awarded to Airbus.
    There was a time when Boeing and other American aircraft companies were the only game in town. There was no Airbus and certainly no Chinese competition in the world market. So they could have really controlled the worker if there hadn't been a union.
    At the same time, all three major builders (Boeing, Mcdonnell-Douglas and Lockheed Martin) had workers from the same union so you couldn't build airplanes for a living without joining the machinists union. SO the UNIONS did control the worker.
    Those Unions demanded more and more from their employers and I dare say, took the independance of 6-7 major players and turned them into three.
    Now Boeing has to compete with Airbus to build aircraft for our own military and you know the Chinese have a growing commercial aircraft industry (they never go for long without stealing a good idea)They will probably have the "dream liner" before Boeing does!

    Aircraft are very labor intensive, from the engineers who design them to the peons who run parts. Boeing is one of the best jobs you can get in this region (probably in the country) but will the continual demands from the unions make their product too expensive for the world market?
    What good is it to have great pay and benefits if your job goes away?.
    I dunno,
    I am rethinking this even as I write I am seeing a potential advantage to strong unions
    Maybe the way the world is, it's time for a comeback for unions if they shifted from protecting the workers from the company to protecting the workers and their companies from the government and globalization.
    I still think Unions for public workers are over reaching and untenable. A government job should not have better pay and benefits than their private sector counterparts and we as taxpayers cannot afford to pay more when we earn less.
    BUT no one answered the question.
    How is it unconstitutional for the government to take money from us to pay for health care but still constitutional for unions to "make us join" and pay dues in order to work at that company.
  • Horse Plains DrifterHorse Plains Drifter Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 40,167 ***** Forums Admin
    edited November -1
    quote:How is it unconstitutional for the government to take money from us to pay for health care but still constitutional for unions to "make us join" and pay dues in order to work at that company.
    Once again, NOBODY is forcing you to join a UNION!!! You are free to join one or you are free to not!! YOUR choice!
  • danielgagedanielgage Member Posts: 10,543 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    if people years ago had not joined together in one voice(union) to get thier employer's attention about certain things that they felt could be improved on safety-wise or any other improvements all of our work conditions would be alot worse right now, anyone that cannot see this is not opening thier mind, did you all know before the IBEW (international brotherhood of electrical workers)was formed one out of two lineman/electrical workers were not coming home after work because they were getting killed so some wise men got together to help thier own safety on the job and to require the companies to pay out benefits to widows and orphans. Just remember a unoin can be made up of good people or bad people just like a church or any other group made up of people. some unions have done great things and some have done terrible things. I am thankful for unions. I am really glad some people joined together and said they were going to form a better union and not be treated like England was doing us @ 1776 how about you all?
  • joker5656joker5656 Member Posts: 5,598 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    There's good unions and there is bad unions. The good ones won't bite the hand that feeds. Meaning if company is in trouble then they might make a sacrefice or two so the employees and employer stay in business. The bad ones won't concede on anything. The bad ones need to go.
  • bpostbpost Member Posts: 32,669 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Unions suck.
    Public Unions are "legalized" extortion.

    BUST THE UNIONS!
  • peabopeabo Member Posts: 3,098
    edited November -1
    UNIONS ---- I could write a book.
    OK unions have their good points but the ones who abuse it are many.
    You are not rewarded for your abilities or willingness to perform your job. Seniority is everything when you belong to a Union.

    I have seen the lazy member cost the company money because it takes them 8 hours to do a 2 hour job. I had one person tell me -- "Tom, we can't go at this like we're gutting a hog - (then spits tobacco juice on the floor)- If we get the job done too fast, we will work ourselves out of a job....."

    Then you have the ones who are too lazy to work, but still have a job because of seniority. "They can't lay me off, I have seniority. They can't fire me, I belong to the Union"

    I doesn't matter how much you know, how much experience you have, or how willing you are to work = your pay is based on seniority.
    Unless you start when you are 18 and build up your seniority, there is no chance of advancement - your pay is determined by the union --- that lazy, worthless worker makes the same as you.

    Yes I could write a book -- None of it would be positive from a union perspective.

    BTW I was a member of United Steelworkers and the IBEW.

    Thanks---Peabo
  • RtWngExtrmstRtWngExtrmst Member Posts: 7,456
    edited November -1
    Unions are like governments. The dues are like a tax. This money is spent not to better the people who provide it, but to better those who collect it. Like the gov, unions make silly rules that benefit no one. Like the gov, unions only take, they never give. Like the gov, unions pretend to protect the weak and feeble minded. Like the gov, they are corrupt. People who organize and run unions are indistinguishable from politicians. Big hats, no cattle.

    People who are too weak to protect themselves, think they need unions to protect them. These same people like big governments.
  • bhale187bhale187 Member Posts: 7,798
    edited November -1
    In Illinois if you are in a job that has a union you don't have to join the union, but you do have to pay partial union dues called 'fair share'. That results in you getting all the same benefits at work as the union members, but you don't get any privledges of the lodge and you don't get to vote on any union issues.

    Strikes have become increasingly rare around here since the '90s when it seemed like every union in the area that could strike, did strike. Both sides took such hard hits, and several big manufacturing plants closed, now both sides seem to be willing to actually negotiate rather than just make demands than go straight o strike or lock out when they don't get their way.
  • nordnord Member Posts: 6,106
    edited November -1
    Interesting how we all seem to point elsewhere when it comes to blame. Allow me a few thoughts if you will.

    There was a time in US history when the gap between a common laborer and the barons of industry was beyond comprehension. Labor with two hands and a strong back existed in inexhaustible numbers and industry abused labor at every opportunity. Certainly there needed to be change and it came. Unions played a huge part and were necessary.

    Those times are many decades in the past. Rules and regulations protect workers today. Safety nets exist where there were none. Unions can take credit for most of these changes.

    Society today has changed as have the unions. There are now very few jobs demanding strength and endurance. Jobs that demand such have been in steady decline because of technology. Robots are more efficient, cheaper, and seldom fail drug tests. They make no demands and they don't strike. An accident fatal to a robot isn't likely to become much of an issue. In other words the very things that unions were formed to protect are now obsolete in large part.

    Each of us who work has something to sell to our employer. Be it the ability to lift heavy objects, endure adverse environments, or to perhaps use a special talent... (In other words use our brains.) Like it or not employers pay for brains because machines don't have any. And so there comes a certain reality. Technology is quickly eliminating many of the jobs previously allocated to manual labor.

    Think of it this way... How many jobs out there fifty years ago required only that a set of hands be available? The worker could essentially turn off his or her brain for an entire shift. And when there was no other way to produce a product, this made sense as the worker essentially was selling his body at a price an employer was willing to pay. Because of this the worker could use himself as a bargaining tool and mass numbers of workers had the power to force change.

    Today is different. Much different! We may wish for the good old days, but they won't ever come back. Today it's brain power and not brawn that will have value for the most part. A union isn't needed when one has this asset. Brainpower enjoys a sellers market. Combine it with experience and value only increases.

    Certainly we can argue the good or bad of this as it relates to society. We can propose that the replacement of ten auto workers by a robot is bad because it reduces the consumer base. We can argue that sending jobs overseas does the same thing. We can argue that unions are the path to save jobs.

    We can argue, but we can't change the fact that the door is open and the cattle have long since left the barn and won't be coming back. Union tend to ignore this and wish for days gone by.

    I see only one path by which the majority of us can now succeed. Education! When I say education I don't mean indoctrination as I believe we've mistakenly combined the two words into a single meaning. In my opinion a college degree generally means that one holds a certificate of indoctrination, not education. (I said GENERALLY!)

    Indoctrination without education pretty much qualifies one for exactly the same type of future as the coal miner of 1900, except in a 21st Century environment. Always that great divide because one has so very little to sell an employer. Always the "need" for a union because of the limited value of what's for sale and the number of folks trying to sell it.

    In the environment of today unions will have their way for a time. In the case of teachers and other public employees the time will run out when the funds run out and probably not before. But the funds WILL run out! In the case of industry, industry will pick up and leave. As the jobs go away so will unions. And with them will go those without the ability to prosper on their own.

    If one considers for a moment, the unions of today are heading us down the path to a social structure more of England during the advent of the Industrial Revolution. To a large degree they know it. This is the reason unions push socialism so heavily. It's in the hope that everyone will become equal without effort, but it's a false hope.

    In socialist systems the average standard of living seems to fall for the average man. Look at the paradise of the former USSR where the general population shared poverty, not wealth. Then look once again at the socialist system and realize that there was always yet another portion of the population who didn't share in poverty. In effect there are always the slaves and their masters within a socialist system.

    I'll conclude by saying that this is exactly where I see the present system leading us. Once the general trough is empty a situation will arise where a majority of us will have nothing. We won't have a "real" education, we'll have very little to offer in the line of a marketable talent or skill, we'll own nothing, and our belief that "someone or something" (union) will protect us will be nothing but a bad dream.

    So we'll either act to change before the train wreck or the survivors will sort things out afterward. Sadly I see the latter rather than the former as more likely. A few of us will profit from this. Mostly those who think outside the box and are used to taking advantage of the situation at hand. Something most of us aren't educated to do.
  • SCOUT5SCOUT5 Member Posts: 16,181 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Good post Nord, thanks for taking the time to write it.
  • UNIVERSITY50UNIVERSITY50 Member Posts: 1,705 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Even in a "Closed" Union shop you do not HAVE TO join the Union. You can always opt out as a Fair Share Employee. You are not forced to join the Union in any job, that would be a Federal Violation.
  • SCOUT5SCOUT5 Member Posts: 16,181 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by UNIVERSITY50
    Even in a "Closed" Union shop you do not HAVE TO join the Union. You can always opt out as a Fair Share Employee. You are not forced to join the Union in any job, that would be a Federal Violation.


    So soemone can get a job at a GM plant working the assembly line with out joining the UAW? So why doesn't that happen?
  • c133c133 Member Posts: 608 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Look at GM to see how good the Union is running there. Talk about employees that are slugs. Check out all their benefits to see why GM had to do the bankruptcy thing. Also, the Union would NOT budge to give up anything even when they knew that the Company could possibly close the doors.
    I've worked in a Union shop (IAM) and all the Union did was protect the lazy workers. Seniority rules even in your day to day job. Low man gets all the crap to do while your "senior" union brothers sit by and watch. Don't ever tell me how great Unions are.
  • TooBigTooBig Member Posts: 28,559 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I support most Union but SEIU is destroying the Union movement and this won't win many friends
    Unions Bring Street Tactics to Kansas House Chamber



    TOPEKA,KS- Today, union thugs brought their street tactics to the Kansas House Chamber. Upset by the House's measure to protect Kansas paychecks, these union members gave House members and staff a taste of the bullying tactics being employed by unions across the country.



    Kansas House members were subjected to name-calling and harassment as they entered the chamber. Female legislators and staff were forced to endure sexually explicit and degrading comments by these threatening individuals. The union members disrupted the House Chamber and were removed by security. This outburst comes off the heels of similar acts in Wisconsin, Ohio and Indiana as union bosses desperately try to hold on to preferential treatment.



    "This conduct has no place in Kansas, especially not in our Capitol." said Amanda Adkins, chair of the Kansas Republican Party. "Unfortunately, this only provides a glimpse into the "negotiation" style preferred by these agitators. The House passage of this legislation is an important step toward employee choice."



    "I call on the Kansas Democrat Party to condemn the use of threats and sexually degrading comments towards Kansas legislators and staff," said Adkins. "This has no place in Kansas and even most union members would agree."



    -30-
  • bhale187bhale187 Member Posts: 7,798
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by SCOUT5
    quote:Originally posted by UNIVERSITY50
    Even in a "Closed" Union shop you do not HAVE TO join the Union. You can always opt out as a Fair Share Employee. You are not forced to join the Union in any job, that would be a Federal Violation.


    So soemone can get a job at a GM plant working the assembly line with out joining the UAW? So why doesn't that happen?

    Caterpillar in Illinois is this way, and they are UAW. I know there are a quite a few employees at the Decatur plant that are fair share. Which means they have to pay into the union, but not as much as a union member.
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    quote:BUT no one answered the question.
    How is it unconstitutional for the government to take money from us to pay for health care but still constitutional for unions to "make us join" and pay dues in order to work at that company.


    Scott, there is a vast difference.

    With Obama care, as a condition of being a citizen you MUST purchase health insurance or be fined. You cannot escape it, you can't opt out.

    With unions, you have a choice to work the job or not. If you CHOOSE to work for a union shop and the condition exists that requires you pay dues, you can avoid it by NOT taking the job.

    There are no provisions in the constitution allowing the government to force you to buy products and services from the private sector, or face fines and possible jail time.
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by SCOUT5
    In Indiana we are debating a new right to work bill. A Right to Work law would simply outlaw the collection of forced union dues and forced union entry.

    Over the past decade, private-sector employment fell by 8.8% in Indiana, but increased by 3.7% in Right to Work states.

    Also, over the past decade, real personal income in Right to Work states grew by nearly 30% -- more than three-and-a-half times that of Indiana. There is many factors in real income, salary is only one of them. Cost of living, taxes, union dues are only a few of them. Right to work states are out performing closed shop states in this area.

    Business does not have to contract with the union, except for government interference which makes it really hard in many states. Government should not be in bed with labor or business. Government should make no laws restricting the free market or manipulate taxes to depress it. When the government "gives business a break" it amounts to lowering already punishing taxes, that is not a break.

    If the union has a good deal to offer then the employee will sign on, if not he will not. If the union does it's job, manages well, insures quality performance it can be in the companies business interest to contract with them. If the union runs a fair program, and members benefit from joining it can be in the employees best interest to do so.

    It makes the union responsible to both the company and the union members. Decreases waste, fraud, and abuse. It creates an environment in which the unions markets it's self to both the company and employees. Forced union entry and forced dues does none of these things.

    This does not take away collective bargaining. It does place it in proper prospective and forces the unions to market themselves in a free market.

    Unions, when done correctly can be a very good thing for both the employees and the company. Give an employee a choice, how does that hurt a well run fairly run union? It doesn't. It does hurt a corrupt top heavy union and that is why unions leaders are so against the right to work concept.

    What are the unions really scared of? Their own performance is what.

    There are a lot of trade offs both ways. Be up to the union to make it worth while.

    IMO, in the long run the competition and balance will strengthen unions. The free market will accomplish what corruption and power can never do.

    Also with out the protective government bond that currently exist and participation in the free market (without government interference and manipulation) the socialist leanings of the unions and their members will begin to evaporate.

    You have seen me type: Buy Union made = support socialism

    Unions contribute money, man hours and votes to socialist candidates. By doing this unions have become a threat to liberty in this country. Unions are willing to sacrifice personal liberty for government protection. It doesn't have or need to be this way. We can have both unions and free market without the move to socialism the unions currently support.

    In a free market well manages unions based on sound principles will thrive and the others will fail. In the long run unions will be stronger than ever and they will not need to be in bed with socialist politicians to do it.


    So Scout, how long have you owned/ran the company?

    We went over this in another thread, but I guess you couldn't any longer give any answers so you walked away.

    I have come to the conclusion, right or wrong, that you either own a business or are running one. Nothing wrong with either one. Something very wrong though when you belive a worker has no right to collectively bargin his/her wage. THAT is a example of the Barons squashing the worker.
  • RtWngExtrmstRtWngExtrmst Member Posts: 7,456
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by UNIVERSITY50
    Even in a "Closed" Union shop you do not HAVE TO join the Union. You can always opt out as a Fair Share Employee. You are not forced to join the Union in any job, that would be a Federal Violation.

    The whole purpose of the union is to take money from members. If you're forced to pay money to the union, what difference does it make if you're a 'member'. What's this 'fair share' crap? Sounds like a Dim bitching because the 10% top earners ONLY pay 70% of the taxes.
  • Horse Plains DrifterHorse Plains Drifter Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 40,167 ***** Forums Admin
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by freemind
    Something very wrong though when you belive a worker has no right to collectively bargin his/her wage. THAT is a example of the Barons squashing the worker.
    I did not come away with this thought from reading Scout's post. Maybe I'm missing something, which wouldn't be the first time.
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Horse Plains Drifter
    quote:Originally posted by freemind
    Something very wrong though when you belive a worker has no right to collectively bargin his/her wage. THAT is a example of the Barons squashing the worker.
    I did not come away with this thought from reading Scout's post. Maybe I'm missing something, which wouldn't be the first time.


    Certainly what he make me think in the other thread. He walked away from the conversation.

    When you get down to brass tacks, that certainly is what is implied when you take away the tools of the union. He supports the idea of "right to work states" that take away union membership. He is supporting non union workers work side by side of union workers with the same pay and benefits and are not required to pay any union dues.

    Busting the ability to collectively bargin, is what this matter comes down to.
  • the middlethe middle Member Posts: 3,089
    edited November -1
    I would like to point out to you all that my union (the IBEW) PROHIBITS socialist, communeist, nazism, or any other unAmerican "ism" from having any part in the union!!! ITS ON PAGE 1!!!

    Hell, about half the guys I work with are republicians!!

    I am a vet. as are most of my co-workers, and none, NONE of us are socialist!!!

    I RESENT BEING CALLED THAT!!!!!!!

    NEVER in ALL my years of going to union meetings was socialism EVER brought up!!!!

    I have never gotten socialist or commie propaganda in the mail from my union, EVER!!!!


    Is that true in all unions, I dont know, but I doubt any Bad "ism" is in any union.....All that is is right wing HATE being spread to enjoyn fear into people who are too weak minded to know better!!!!




    That being said, I somewhat agree with the idea that FORCEED union membership is wrong!! I somewhat agree with right to work in that respect. BUT, I also feel that IF a person takes advantage of collective bargining in a right to work state they BETTER join the union, or they are a complete fool!!
  • nordnord Member Posts: 6,106
    edited November -1
    I forgot about government mandated purchasing of health care...

    ILLEGAL! It's a non issue.
  • bhale187bhale187 Member Posts: 7,798
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by RtWngExtrmst
    quote:Originally posted by UNIVERSITY50
    Even in a "Closed" Union shop you do not HAVE TO join the Union. You can always opt out as a Fair Share Employee. You are not forced to join the Union in any job, that would be a Federal Violation.

    The whole purpose of the union is to take money from members. If you're forced to pay money to the union, what difference does it make if you're a 'member'. What's this 'fair share' crap? Sounds like a Dim bitching because the 10% top earners ONLY pay 70% of the taxes.

    Fair share means you pay partial dues and in return you get the same pay and benefits that union members get. What they don't get is union representation in greivances against the employer, ie if the employee gets disciplined or fired and they think wrongly so they are on their own. They also do not get to vote on contracts, and don't get use of the lodge facilities.
  • SCOUT5SCOUT5 Member Posts: 16,181 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by freemind
    quote:Originally posted by SCOUT5
    In Indiana we are debating a new right to work bill. A Right to Work law would simply outlaw the collection of forced union dues and forced union entry.

    Over the past decade, private-sector employment fell by 8.8% in Indiana, but increased by 3.7% in Right to Work states.

    Also, over the past decade, real personal income in Right to Work states grew by nearly 30% -- more than three-and-a-half times that of Indiana. There is many factors in real income, salary is only one of them. Cost of living, taxes, union dues are only a few of them. Right to work states are out performing closed shop states in this area.

    Business does not have to contract with the union, except for government interference which makes it really hard in many states. Government should not be in bed with labor or business. Government should make no laws restricting the free market or manipulate taxes to depress it. When the government "gives business a break" it amounts to lowering already punishing taxes, that is not a break.

    If the union has a good deal to offer then the employee will sign on, if not he will not. If the union does it's job, manages well, insures quality performance it can be in the companies business interest to contract with them. If the union runs a fair program, and members benefit from joining it can be in the employees best interest to do so.

    It makes the union responsible to both the company and the union members. Decreases waste, fraud, and abuse. It creates an environment in which the unions markets it's self to both the company and employees. Forced union entry and forced dues does none of these things.

    This does not take away collective bargaining. It does place it in proper prospective and forces the unions to market themselves in a free market.

    Unions, when done correctly can be a very good thing for both the employees and the company. Give an employee a choice, how does that hurt a well run fairly run union? It doesn't. It does hurt a corrupt top heavy union and that is why unions leaders are so against the right to work concept.

    What are the unions really scared of? Their own performance is what.

    There are a lot of trade offs both ways. Be up to the union to make it worth while.

    IMO, in the long run the competition and balance will strengthen unions. The free market will accomplish what corruption and power can never do.

    Also with out the protective government bond that currently exist and participation in the free market (without government interference and manipulation) the socialist leanings of the unions and their members will begin to evaporate.

    You have seen me type: Buy Union made = support socialism

    Unions contribute money, man hours and votes to socialist candidates. By doing this unions have become a threat to liberty in this country. Unions are willing to sacrifice personal liberty for government protection. It doesn't have or need to be this way. We can have both unions and free market without the move to socialism the unions currently support.

    In a free market well manages unions based on sound principles will thrive and the others will fail. In the long run unions will be stronger than ever and they will not need to be in bed with socialist politicians to do it.


    So Scout, how long have you owned/ran the company?

    We went over this in another thread, but I guess you couldn't any longer give any answers so you walked away.

    I have come to the conclusion, right or wrong, that you either own a business or are running one. Nothing wrong with either one. Something very wrong though when you belive a worker has no right to collectively bargin his/her wage. THAT is a example of the Barons squashing the worker.


    Freemind,

    I didn't really walk away, I just thought the other thread had run it's course. You wrote your opinion and I wrote mine. I did read your last post about your personal experience. Growing pains will happen, things will happen to some that are not good for them personally. That happens in any system, not everyone gets what they hoped for, I'm sorry your experience was bad.

    I have owned a business, years ago. It was very small, I was very inexperienced, all I made was wages, and often not that. I was really just making myself a job. The issue of unions was never a factor, though at the time I was a strong union supporter. I could do much better in business now but have other avenues I am pursuing, primarily investment properties.

    I was at one time a members of the carpenters union. I went back to doing my own thing and eventually went back to school and now work in the medical field as a RN, primarily in ER and ICU. There is always a push to unionize the medical field. It works in some areas and not so well in others. By and large I am against it, but it has it's place.

    Trade unions, company union, and public employee unions are all different.

    I never state ed a person did not have the right to collective bargaining. That is not my point at all. I did state they should not be forced to as a condition of employment. I also do not think unions have the same place in the public (tax payer funded) sector as the private sector.

    As I have stated, IMO unions can be a benefit to both the employee and the company when ran well. The current system with a high level of government intervention is not in the best interest of this country.

    If you do not agree with my position, it's America and we both have that right. But please do take the time to understand it, I try to give you this courtesy.

    I am not completely anti-union, I am completely anti-socialism and very pro-liberty. The over all union situation runs counter to my beliefs of liberty and free markets being the most important assets we have here in America.
  • gunnut505gunnut505 Member Posts: 10,290
    edited November -1
    Unions are bad because although they may have had their place in Early America, they have become Political powers that set the agenda by using dues money to pay Politicians who are friendly to the Unions' collectivist nature, and perpetuate the fraud that our Political system has become.
    AFSCME is closest to the local candidates, and by turning out a few hundred members, can overwhelm any news coverage; which gives their candidate (who votes to set the rules by which Unions can grab even MORE power) better name recognition than the other guy. Whether it's good or bad coverage, nobody remembers what happened when, and are too short-sighted to connect the dots.
    SEIU is the thug arm of Union activity; they are servers, waiters, just imagine the scenes in Fight Club, where "workers" all over this country can cause havoc by sabotaging their work product, or gathering like a flash mob to put down any "unrest/Union Busting".

    As long as the current state of Union Political interference is maintained; we will be subjected to threats to individual Freedoms and collectivist ideology.

    Long story short; if Unions are allowed to pick & choose who we vote for by making enormous contributions of cash and services, if Unions are able to elect individuals who will set the benefits favorably for the Unions, we are doomed (some more).
  • SCOUT5SCOUT5 Member Posts: 16,181 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by the middle
    I would like to point out to you all that my union (the IBEW) PROHIBITS socialist, communeist, nazism, or any other unAmerican "ism" from having any part in the union!!! ITS ON PAGE 1!!!

    Hell, about half the guys I work with are republicians!!

    I am a vet. as are most of my co-workers, and none, NONE of us are socialist!!!

    I RESENT BEING CALLED THAT!!!!!!!

    NEVER in ALL my years of going to union meetings was socialism EVER brought up!!!!

    I have never gotten socialist or commie propaganda in the mail from my union, EVER!!!!


    Is that true in all unions, I dont know, but I doubt any Bad "ism" is in any union.....All that is is right wing HATE being spread to enjoyn fear into people who are too weak minded to know better!!!!




    That being said, I somewhat agree with the idea that FORCEED union membership is wrong!! I somewhat agree with right to work in that respect. BUT, I also feel that IF a person takes advantage of collective bargining in a right to work state they BETTER join the union, or they are a complete fool!!


    I do not think all union members are socialist, or even that all unions desire socialism.

    However when over 90% of unions (collectively) political contributions go to the democratic party, which is driving the bus straight to socialism, what does that say? When the union members organize to promote, and encourage the union members to vote for candidates who are voting us into socialism, what does that say.

    Perhaps your union doesn't do this and runs a good program. If so your union should do well in a true free market. But collectively the unions are a strong part of the engine driving us into a socialist state. IMO unions (collectively) have become a threat to liberty in this country. It does not have or need to be that way, but it is. How do we change that?
  • kimikimi Member Posts: 44,719 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Say what you will about the unions helping out their people, and/or other people in certain geographical locations in the nation, but the fact of the matter is they are being hurt right now for a number of reasons.

    One reason is that industry and money has moved, and continues to move to other countries and to, primarily, the southern states. Another reason is that unions are now receiving heat from citizens of their own states, and from citizens everywhere in America, because too many citizens are mad about government and union personnel taking care of themselves while the masses go to the poor house, so to speak.

    One of the things that has brought this issue to the forefront of our daily news is that too many state and local governments cannot manage their state governments in a responsible manner. We can also add our federal government representatives to this type list of "incompetent and corrupt" political activity.

    So, what we have are people of certain states going at each other's throats, and people all over this country angered at having their tax dollars ripped off generation after generation to shore up the lifestyle of a few, while the majority flip the bill.

    Now that OBama is in office our federal representatives have acted like a pack of wild dogs, and this will continue until "something" gives. My money says that the union members can bust-heads if they want to, but they will have a seriously rude awakening if they do, and in the final analysis...the unions will be limited in their collective bargaining power.
    What's next?
  • RtWngExtrmstRtWngExtrmst Member Posts: 7,456
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by the middle
    I would like to point out to you all that my union (the IBEW) PROHIBITS socialist, communeist, nazism, or any other unAmerican "ism" from having any part in the union!!! ITS ON PAGE 1!!!

    Hell, about half the guys I work with are republicians!!

    I am a vet. as are most of my co-workers, and none, NONE of us are socialist!!!

    I RESENT BEING CALLED THAT!!!!!!!

    NEVER in ALL my years of going to union meetings was socialism EVER brought up!!!!

    I have never gotten socialist or commie propaganda in the mail from my union, EVER!!!!


    Is that true in all unions, I dont know, but I doubt any Bad "ism" is in any union.....All that is is right wing HATE being spread to enjoyn fear into people who are too weak minded to know better!!!!




    That being said, I somewhat agree with the idea that FORCEED union membership is wrong!! I somewhat agree with right to work in that respect. BUT, I also feel that IF a person takes advantage of collective bargining in a right to work state they BETTER join the union, or they are a complete fool!!

    The basic philosphy on which the labor union movement is grounded is the Marx manifesto 'Workers Unite!'. The unions are operated exactly the same way Joseph Stalin operated the Soviet Union. Corrupt powerful dictators at the head that have no chance of being unelected. These union thugs borrowed from Stalins quip 'the man voting has very little power, the man counting the votes has a great deal of power'. You may not consider yourself the member of a communist or socialist organization, but those on the outside looking in can't see a distinction.
  • the middlethe middle Member Posts: 3,089
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by RtWngExtrmst
    quote:Originally posted by the middle
    I would like to point out to you all that my union (the IBEW) PROHIBITS socialist, communeist, nazism, or any other unAmerican "ism" from having any part in the union!!! ITS ON PAGE 1!!!

    Hell, about half the guys I work with are republicians!!

    I am a vet. as are most of my co-workers, and none, NONE of us are socialist!!!

    I RESENT BEING CALLED THAT!!!!!!!

    NEVER in ALL my years of going to union meetings was socialism EVER brought up!!!!

    I have never gotten socialist or commie propaganda in the mail from my union, EVER!!!!


    Is that true in all unions, I dont know, but I doubt any Bad "ism" is in any union.....All that is is right wing HATE being spread to enjoyn fear into people who are too weak minded to know better!!!!




    That being said, I somewhat agree with the idea that FORCEED union membership is wrong!! I somewhat agree with right to work in that respect. BUT, I also feel that IF a person takes advantage of collective bargining in a right to work state they BETTER join the union, or they are a complete fool!!

    The basic philosphy on which the labor union movement is grounded is the Marx manifesto 'Workers Unite!'. The unions are operated exactly the same way Joseph Stalin operated the Soviet Union. Corrupt powerful dictators at the head that have no chance of being unelected. These union thugs borrowed from Stalins quip 'the man voting has very little power, the man counting the votes has a great deal of power'. You may not consider yourself the member of a communist or socialist organization, but those on the outside looking in can't see a distinction.



    Clearly buddy you dont have a damn clue!!!

    What was in the soviet union was NOTHING like labor unions in the USA!

    Socialist or commies didnt start the labor movement here, and have ZERO control over it.

    We vote for our union leaders, with plenty of oversite for the "counters"!

    Check the facts, in the last 30 years there has been little fraud going on in the unions!
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