In order to participate in the GunBroker Member forums, you must be logged in with your GunBroker.com account. Click the sign-in button at the top right of the forums page to get connected.
FedEx-Busted Winchester Model 88
gitano
Member Posts: 30 ✭✭
Here are three new rifles I have added to my collection.
The top one is a Remington Model 660; the next a Remington Model 600, and the bottom one a Winchester Model 88. As I wrote in the title, they are all chambered in .308 Winchester.
Here's a close-up of the Model 88 as it came out of the shipping container shipped via FedEX.
Made me sick to my stomach. I purchased this from Cabelas, and it WAS in pristine condition. Metal is essentially like new-in-the-box. The stock WAS almost perfect. I got it for a song, and the sons of bachelors at FedEx broke it in half. It is my heartfelt belief that FedEx breaks/destroys firearms ON PURPOSE. Let me repeat that for emphasis. I BELIEVE THAT FEDEX INTENTIONALLY BREAKS/DESTROYS FIREARMS. The reason I have this belief is: personal experience, first-hand knowledge of friends and acquaintances, and a mountain of reports on "gun" web-sites reporting broken/destroyed firearms shipped by FedEx.
I contacted Cabelas first by phone then followed up with this email:
Dear Mr. Morse,
Per our telephone conversation earlier today, I am enclosing pictures of the rifle broken in shipping. (I am of course assuming you didn't send me a broken rifle.) I have included:
1) Two pictures of the rifle,
2) The mailing label,
3) The invoice/receipt from Cabelas, and
4) The shipping box.
I opened the box personally at the place of business of the FFL I was using for the transfer. The rifle was well-packed and the box at first glance didn't appear to be damaged. As soon as I attempted to remove the rifle from the shipping container I knew something was wrong as it was clearly in at least two pieces and I was fairly certain that Cabela's had not removed the butt-stock before shipping. Upon careful removal of the wrapping I saw that the stock was broken in two. Even though this break is essentially in the wrist, this particular break required some SERIOUS `effort' to accomplish.
I was heart-broken when I saw this. This is a beautiful rifle in excellent condition. I purchased it to include in my collection. It's collectable value is now `salvage' at best, but I am more grieved by the destruction of such an excellent example of a Model 88 than I am about my personal loss. This is truly a shame.
Based on personal experience, the experience of others I know personally and the reports of reliable sources on the internet, this breakage is "normal" for FedEx. In fact, it is my personal belief based on the frequency of occurrence with FedEx and the rarity of occurrence with other shippers, (NEVER in 15 years of personally shipping guns around the country), that FedEx intentionally breaks/destroys firearms. It may be something that occurs whenever they x-ray boxes for "overseas" shipments to Alaska or anywhere else where FedEx is called on to x-ray the contents of a package and they find out it is a firearm. I realize this may sound "paranoid", but I assure you that I am not "that sort" of person.
In addition to the propensity to break/destroy firearms, FedEx is extremely recalcitrant when it comes to "owning up" to the responsibility. This is inconsistent with their normal willingness to acknowledge responsibility for any other form of loss due to their action. In fact, they are very quick to rectify damage caused by them when it comes to anything OTHER THAN firearms. This is another reason I believe they break/destroy them intentionally.
As I said on the phone, I would prefer not to return this firearm to you and receive a refund. If that is necessary to get FedEx to fulfill their obligations in this matter, then so be it. However, a solution I would be perfectly happy with is replacement of the stock with one of comparable condition before this one was broken. If Cabelas can find such a stock, and I'm not in any particular hurry, I would much prefer that resolution.
Thank you for your consideration in this matter and please don't hesitate to call at the numbers below - the cell is best - if you have any questions or want to discuss this further.
Sincerely,
Paul Skvorc
On the phone, Mr. Morse agreed to my suggested solution of finding a replacement stock. That said, I doubt that will be very easy. I would like to enlist the help of the folks here at GunBroker.com in finding a proper stock for this rifle, (this rifle was - according to the serial number - made in 1961). Morse said he would check in Cabelas "inventory", but I have little hope for success there. However, if "I" find one, I may be able to get Cabelas to reimburse the cost if I purchase it.
Thanks,
Paul
The top one is a Remington Model 660; the next a Remington Model 600, and the bottom one a Winchester Model 88. As I wrote in the title, they are all chambered in .308 Winchester.
Here's a close-up of the Model 88 as it came out of the shipping container shipped via FedEX.
Made me sick to my stomach. I purchased this from Cabelas, and it WAS in pristine condition. Metal is essentially like new-in-the-box. The stock WAS almost perfect. I got it for a song, and the sons of bachelors at FedEx broke it in half. It is my heartfelt belief that FedEx breaks/destroys firearms ON PURPOSE. Let me repeat that for emphasis. I BELIEVE THAT FEDEX INTENTIONALLY BREAKS/DESTROYS FIREARMS. The reason I have this belief is: personal experience, first-hand knowledge of friends and acquaintances, and a mountain of reports on "gun" web-sites reporting broken/destroyed firearms shipped by FedEx.
I contacted Cabelas first by phone then followed up with this email:
Dear Mr. Morse,
Per our telephone conversation earlier today, I am enclosing pictures of the rifle broken in shipping. (I am of course assuming you didn't send me a broken rifle.) I have included:
1) Two pictures of the rifle,
2) The mailing label,
3) The invoice/receipt from Cabelas, and
4) The shipping box.
I opened the box personally at the place of business of the FFL I was using for the transfer. The rifle was well-packed and the box at first glance didn't appear to be damaged. As soon as I attempted to remove the rifle from the shipping container I knew something was wrong as it was clearly in at least two pieces and I was fairly certain that Cabela's had not removed the butt-stock before shipping. Upon careful removal of the wrapping I saw that the stock was broken in two. Even though this break is essentially in the wrist, this particular break required some SERIOUS `effort' to accomplish.
I was heart-broken when I saw this. This is a beautiful rifle in excellent condition. I purchased it to include in my collection. It's collectable value is now `salvage' at best, but I am more grieved by the destruction of such an excellent example of a Model 88 than I am about my personal loss. This is truly a shame.
Based on personal experience, the experience of others I know personally and the reports of reliable sources on the internet, this breakage is "normal" for FedEx. In fact, it is my personal belief based on the frequency of occurrence with FedEx and the rarity of occurrence with other shippers, (NEVER in 15 years of personally shipping guns around the country), that FedEx intentionally breaks/destroys firearms. It may be something that occurs whenever they x-ray boxes for "overseas" shipments to Alaska or anywhere else where FedEx is called on to x-ray the contents of a package and they find out it is a firearm. I realize this may sound "paranoid", but I assure you that I am not "that sort" of person.
In addition to the propensity to break/destroy firearms, FedEx is extremely recalcitrant when it comes to "owning up" to the responsibility. This is inconsistent with their normal willingness to acknowledge responsibility for any other form of loss due to their action. In fact, they are very quick to rectify damage caused by them when it comes to anything OTHER THAN firearms. This is another reason I believe they break/destroy them intentionally.
As I said on the phone, I would prefer not to return this firearm to you and receive a refund. If that is necessary to get FedEx to fulfill their obligations in this matter, then so be it. However, a solution I would be perfectly happy with is replacement of the stock with one of comparable condition before this one was broken. If Cabelas can find such a stock, and I'm not in any particular hurry, I would much prefer that resolution.
Thank you for your consideration in this matter and please don't hesitate to call at the numbers below - the cell is best - if you have any questions or want to discuss this further.
Sincerely,
Paul Skvorc
On the phone, Mr. Morse agreed to my suggested solution of finding a replacement stock. That said, I doubt that will be very easy. I would like to enlist the help of the folks here at GunBroker.com in finding a proper stock for this rifle, (this rifle was - according to the serial number - made in 1961). Morse said he would check in Cabelas "inventory", but I have little hope for success there. However, if "I" find one, I may be able to get Cabelas to reimburse the cost if I purchase it.
Thanks,
Paul
Comments
http://www.boydsgunstocks.com/Replacement-Stocks-Winchester-s/26.htm?searching=Y&sort=9&cat=26&show=12&page=3
I've received several rifles that had the barrel poking out of the end of the carton; these have all been poorly packed. OTOH, when I ship a long gun, I pack them with the goal of surviving a 6' drop, & never had a problem.
Neal
Also want to thank those that have had good luck with FedEx shipping for not being jerks in their defense of FedEx. It is certainly true that Fed Ex ships thousands of rifles every year without destroying them. HOWEVER, I think if the records were examined closely two 'trends' would show up. First, I think the shipments "overseas" - like Alaska - would show a VERY HIGH incidence of breakage. Second, I think an examination of WHO does the shipping would reveal that "little guys" shipping "overseas" had a higher incidence of breakage than "big guys" like Cabelas do. Of course I realize that it was a "big guy" - Cabelas - that shipped this rifle, and it was broken. However, it was shipped "overseas". That may 'trump' "big guy".
I realize that I sound like a paranoid or a conspiracy theorist. I am neither. It is simply that in 15 years of buying and selling guns via the internet and shipping then all over the country, FedEx is the ONLY shipper that EVER broken a rifle of mine or anyone I have ever personally known. That's just plain suspicious.
Thanks again,
Paul
[img][/img]
I didn't say the shipping container was un-marked. I said it wasn't OBVIOUS at first glance. After I saw the breakage, I re-examined the box and it did indeed show signs of damage.
This box wasn't "dropped". One of two things happened: Either they "bridged" lower boxes with this box then stacked REALLY HEAVY stuff on top of it, or someone stomped on it. It would be VERY difficult to perform this break without really TRYING. My belief is that a FedEx employee, knowing that it was a rifle and only to happy to "do his part" for "the cause" - especially after the Aurora and other recent shootings - INTENTIONALLY used this box to bridge other boxes and INTENTIONALLY stacked VERY HEAVY items on top of it KNOWING that in transit, it would get broken by normal shipping movement.
All of that said, the reason I posted here WAS NOT TO 'rag on' FedEx or entertain a discussion about the pros and cons of our favorite shippers. I'll acknowledge that I opened that door with my frustrated comments about FedEx. Let me attempt to close that door and get this back on topic:
I'm looking for a replacement stock for an "early" Winchester Model 88.
Thanks,
Paul
Paul
Paul
Paul
You'd have to have a lot of damage on the box to see that break. Or the rilfe would have had to be removed for the break and re inserted.
Shippers should develope a seal system where by it can be seen if the package was opened during shipping.
I've had rifles show up with the muzzel stiking out of a box too. Fact I get shipments all the time that raise my eye brow as a former shipping clerk. Most recently I got a shipment of silver and a little gold. Placed in a presentation type box. And the shipper wrapped it up in shipping tape! [V]
This "was" a mint condition Arisaka cleaning rod that WhiteClouder received.
More shipping monkey handiwork.
The difference being I was only assured the delivery of the item, not what condition it would arrive in.
So after 4 hours on the phone working my way up to VP of marketing I FINALLY got them to send the money to build a new one. I was still out the money for labor. But the only way I get something from fedex is if I am forced. And most of the time, I will refuse to do business if it comes down to fedex.
That may be the most ignorant part of your post. Why would any company intentionally break/destroy ANYTHING? FedEx ships thousands of guns a day. 90%+ of damages on ANY shipment, not just guns, are caused by improper packaging. You'd be amazed at what you think is proper packaging is severely under what it needs to be. Your packages are touched by mechanical devices, which to my knowledge are completely impartial, more than they are human hands. And where do you think FedEx "Xrays" these shipments? Do you think in a sort system where they move millions of packages a night they seriously have time to Xray packages?
Big Sky Redneck got his M-1 Garand from Mark Christian, Mark does an excellent job of packing too. From what I saw, it looked like someone stomped this rifle to break it like this.
This "was" a mint condition Arisaka cleaning rod that WhiteClouder received.
More shipping monkey handiwork.
Between these pics and the original pic of the 88 I think I have thrown up in my mouth twice now. Those almost literally hurt me.
Zulu7 - Thanks for the link.
Waco Waltz - Here you go:
A box could be stomped or "bridged" without showing too much damage. Like I said above, at first glance there was nothing about the box that was any worse than many other boxes I have seen. It was only after I took the rifle out that I went back and looked closer at the box. The box was clearly bent at the crease and it was 'torn' at the crease on the short side.
Regardless of my personal opinion on the matter, I think if one were to look around the web, they would find that the incidences of problems with FedEx gun shipments far, FAR outnumber those with other shippers. This thread alone would support that supposition. Cabelas has already offered to refund my money, so the "recovery" from FedEx is an issue between Cabelas and FedEx, not FedEx and me.
Thanks for your help so far,
Paul
OX 190 - The jaskassedness of your post doesn't warrant more response than this.
That's rare!
Paul
OAKIE - That stock is not for the older version. It is inlet for the "round" receiver. The older ones like the one I bought has the "clover leaf" receiver.
Zulu7 - Thanks for the link.
Waco Waltz - Here you go:
A box could be stomped or "bridged" without showing too much damage. Like I said above, at first glance there was nothing about the box that was any worse than many other boxes I have seen. It was only after I took the rifle out that I went back and looked closer at the box. The box was clearly bent at the crease and it was 'torn' at the crease on the short side.
Regardless of my personal opinion on the matter, I think if one were to look around the web, they would find that the incidences of problems with FedEx gun shipments far, FAR outnumber those with other shippers. This thread alone would support that supposition. Cabelas has already offered to refund my money, so the "recovery" from FedEx is an issue between Cabelas and FedEx, not FedEx and me.
Thanks for your help so far,
Paul
OX 190 - The jaskassedness of your post doesn't warrant more response than this.
Yeah you're right what would I know, only 13 yrs working in the shipping industry.
I've never loaded a shipment of various stuff you see in say UPS. But I would think that the trailers are loaded with the maximum content for the sake of economy. SO you really should have little to NO play in the movement of the parcels.
Does Fed Ex break rifles on purpose? No in that it's not company policy but that does not say some employees in some areas of the country don't do it for political reasons. It's the perfect crime. Don't steal the guns and no one's going to come sniffing around. Break them here and there and crap happens you know?
Short of someone backing over the rifle with a truck and the rifle being proped up or on something soild I don't see any reason for the damage. And I don't know why the parcels would be placed anywhere but a laoding dock or trailer in rout.
I suppose someone with a palet jack loaded with really heavy stuff could have lost his load. If so could have been a person in the way just the same.
Just my un educated opinion but the damage on the box is not consistant with a simple drop. Walnut stocks are awful tough. Just looks like the rifle was pinched between something solid and something moving with a bit of force.
I've never loaded a shipment of various stuff you see in say UPS. But I would think that the trailers are loaded with the maximum content for the sake of economy. SO you really should have little to NO play in the movement of the parcels.
Does Fed Ex break rifles on purpose? No in that it's not company policy but that does not say some employees in some areas of the country don't do it for political reasons. It's the perfect crime. Don't steal the guns and no one's going to come sniffing around. Break them here and there and crap happens you know?
Short of someone backing over the rifle with a truck and the rifle being proped up or on something soild I don't see any reason for the damage. And I don't know why the parcels would be placed anywhere but a laoding dock or trailer in rout.
I suppose someone with a palet jack loaded with really heavy stuff could have lost his load. If so could have been a person in the way just the same.
It's called a belt jam, and it happens all the time. A turn on the conveyor belt and long box get stuck in it, then another box moving along comes up and hits it, or multiple boxes hit it until it either clears itself, or someone notices, stops the belt and clears it manually.
See the thread:
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=570864
They recently broke a stock on my Remington Woodsmaster that I had shipped from Kasey.
I forgot about that one....I am sorry. I have shipped so many things and in all of these years to have the number of firearms go through Fed Ex without having the things that people here are describing just seems uncanny. A couple people are suggesting that they "purposely" break guns. If that were the case.....SURELY I would be a victim of this. So, I am convinced that the idea that "Fed Ex breaks guns on purpose" is untrue.
I've never loaded a shipment of various stuff you see in say UPS. But I would think that the trailers are loaded with the maximum content for the sake of economy. SO you really should have little to NO play in the movement of the parcels.
Does Fed Ex break rifles on purpose? No in that it's not company policy but that does not say some employees in some areas of the country don't do it for political reasons. It's the perfect crime. Don't steal the guns and no one's going to come sniffing around. Break them here and there and crap happens you know?
Short of someone backing over the rifle with a truck and the rifle being proped up or on something soild I don't see any reason for the damage. And I don't know why the parcels would be placed anywhere but a laoding dock or trailer in rout.
I suppose someone with a palet jack loaded with really heavy stuff could have lost his load. If so could have been a person in the way just the same.
This is pretty much exactly my opinion. The reason for considering that FedEx DOES break firearms on purpose, is that when one tallies the broken firearms shipped by FedEx and the ones shipped by ALL the other shippers COMBINED, FedEx "wins", and not by "a little bit". That's suspicious, pure and simple. Furthermore, the more times a given parcel is handled, like those that have to go farther, the greater the likelihood of a 'gorilla' handling it, a "machine" mangling it, or an "activist" doing something for "the cause". However, that's all true for EVERY carrier. Why does FedEx have such a HIGH rate of breakage with firearms, compared to other carriers, and why do they fight 'tooth-and-nail' about acknowledging responsibility for gun damage, but don't complain AT ALL about responsibility for EVERY other form of damage. As I said, that suspicious, pure and simple.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH, retroxler58,
Paul
http://www.shop.macongunstocks.com/Winchester-Model-88-Example-Walnut-Stock-Winchester-88-Stock.htm
Last rifle I shipped was two guns for repair to century and I broke both rifles down so the box did not even look like a gun box. It was more economical to ship two guns in a smaller box and it also took attention away from those looking for gun boxes to steal.
NO belt jam shape to the box either.
Paul