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FedEx-Busted Winchester Model 88

gitanogitano Member Posts: 30 ✭✭
edited September 2012 in General Discussion
Here are three new rifles I have added to my collection.
2012-08-30_11-04-14_660.jpg


The top one is a Remington Model 660; the next a Remington Model 600, and the bottom one a Winchester Model 88. As I wrote in the title, they are all chambered in .308 Winchester. :)

Here's a close-up of the Model 88 as it came out of the shipping container shipped via FedEX.
2012-08-30_06-40-07_710.jpg

2012-08-30_06-40-14_983.jpg

Made me sick to my stomach. I purchased this from Cabelas, and it WAS in pristine condition. Metal is essentially like new-in-the-box. The stock WAS almost perfect. I got it for a song, and the sons of bachelors at FedEx broke it in half. It is my heartfelt belief that FedEx breaks/destroys firearms ON PURPOSE. Let me repeat that for emphasis. I BELIEVE THAT FEDEX INTENTIONALLY BREAKS/DESTROYS FIREARMS. The reason I have this belief is: personal experience, first-hand knowledge of friends and acquaintances, and a mountain of reports on "gun" web-sites reporting broken/destroyed firearms shipped by FedEx.

I contacted Cabelas first by phone then followed up with this email:


Dear Mr. Morse,

Per our telephone conversation earlier today, I am enclosing pictures of the rifle broken in shipping. (I am of course assuming you didn't send me a broken rifle.) I have included:
1) Two pictures of the rifle,
2) The mailing label,
3) The invoice/receipt from Cabelas, and
4) The shipping box.

I opened the box personally at the place of business of the FFL I was using for the transfer. The rifle was well-packed and the box at first glance didn't appear to be damaged. As soon as I attempted to remove the rifle from the shipping container I knew something was wrong as it was clearly in at least two pieces and I was fairly certain that Cabela's had not removed the butt-stock before shipping. Upon careful removal of the wrapping I saw that the stock was broken in two. Even though this break is essentially in the wrist, this particular break required some SERIOUS `effort' to accomplish.

I was heart-broken when I saw this. This is a beautiful rifle in excellent condition. I purchased it to include in my collection. It's collectable value is now `salvage' at best, but I am more grieved by the destruction of such an excellent example of a Model 88 than I am about my personal loss. This is truly a shame.

Based on personal experience, the experience of others I know personally and the reports of reliable sources on the internet, this breakage is "normal" for FedEx. In fact, it is my personal belief based on the frequency of occurrence with FedEx and the rarity of occurrence with other shippers, (NEVER in 15 years of personally shipping guns around the country), that FedEx intentionally breaks/destroys firearms. It may be something that occurs whenever they x-ray boxes for "overseas" shipments to Alaska or anywhere else where FedEx is called on to x-ray the contents of a package and they find out it is a firearm. I realize this may sound "paranoid", but I assure you that I am not "that sort" of person.

In addition to the propensity to break/destroy firearms, FedEx is extremely recalcitrant when it comes to "owning up" to the responsibility. This is inconsistent with their normal willingness to acknowledge responsibility for any other form of loss due to their action. In fact, they are very quick to rectify damage caused by them when it comes to anything OTHER THAN firearms. This is another reason I believe they break/destroy them intentionally.

As I said on the phone, I would prefer not to return this firearm to you and receive a refund. If that is necessary to get FedEx to fulfill their obligations in this matter, then so be it. However, a solution I would be perfectly happy with is replacement of the stock with one of comparable condition before this one was broken. If Cabelas can find such a stock, and I'm not in any particular hurry, I would much prefer that resolution.

Thank you for your consideration in this matter and please don't hesitate to call at the numbers below - the cell is best - if you have any questions or want to discuss this further.

Sincerely,
Paul Skvorc


On the phone, Mr. Morse agreed to my suggested solution of finding a replacement stock. That said, I doubt that will be very easy. I would like to enlist the help of the folks here at GunBroker.com in finding a proper stock for this rifle, (this rifle was - according to the serial number - made in 1961). Morse said he would check in Cabelas "inventory", but I have little hope for success there. However, if "I" find one, I may be able to get Cabelas to reimburse the cost if I purchase it.

Thanks,
Paul
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Comments

  • CS8161CS8161 Member Posts: 13,595 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have always had very good luck with Fedex. I have shipped many guitars using fedex and never had any damage. That being said, any carrier can and will have a certain amount of damage in transit. Its how they handle the claim that makes all the difference in the world. I hope you get this resolved to your satisfaction.
  • Locust ForkLocust Fork Member Posts: 31,617 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I can promise you that you are wrong about Fed Ex. I ship every long gun I sell by Fed Ex and have done so for a long time now.....with several hundred long guns shipped with them...no problems. I am sure whatever happened was not purposely done and the shipper should have insurance that covers your item.
    LOCUST FORK CURRENT AUCTIONS: https://www.gunbroker.com/All/search?Sort=13&IncludeSellers=618902&PageSize=48 Listings added every Thursday! We do consignments, contact us at mckaygunsales@gmail.com
  • ruger41ruger41 Member Posts: 14,646 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Boyds carries them..although they are on a one to two week backorder for certain woods other types of wood are in stock now.
    http://www.boydsgunstocks.com/Replacement-Stocks-Winchester-s/26.htm?searching=Y&sort=9&cat=26&show=12&page=3
  • m88.358winm88.358win Member Posts: 7,272 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I think I'm going to throw up.
  • GrasshopperGrasshopper Member Posts: 16,704 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Wha at *--UPS did the same thing for me though--so its all the same-[B)]
  • nmyersnmyers Member Posts: 16,875 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'm not convinced that it was the carrier's fault. It would be difficult to break a stock without having severe damage to the shipping carton. I'd like to see the carton & the packing materials used. Then, there's always the possibility that the shipping clerk at Cabela's dropped the rifle & figured he'd ship it anyway.

    I've received several rifles that had the barrel poking out of the end of the carton; these have all been poorly packed. OTOH, when I ship a long gun, I pack them with the goal of surviving a 6' drop, & never had a problem.

    Neal
  • gitanogitano Member Posts: 30 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thanks Ruger41 for the Boyd's link. That may ultimately be the way I have to go, but I'm hoping to find a 'take-off' someone has.

    Also want to thank those that have had good luck with FedEx shipping for not being jerks in their defense of FedEx. It is certainly true that Fed Ex ships thousands of rifles every year without destroying them. HOWEVER, I think if the records were examined closely two 'trends' would show up. First, I think the shipments "overseas" - like Alaska - would show a VERY HIGH incidence of breakage. Second, I think an examination of WHO does the shipping would reveal that "little guys" shipping "overseas" had a higher incidence of breakage than "big guys" like Cabelas do. Of course I realize that it was a "big guy" - Cabelas - that shipped this rifle, and it was broken. However, it was shipped "overseas". That may 'trump' "big guy".

    I realize that I sound like a paranoid or a conspiracy theorist. I am neither. It is simply that in 15 years of buying and selling guns via the internet and shipping then all over the country, FedEx is the ONLY shipper that EVER broken a rifle of mine or anyone I have ever personally known. That's just plain suspicious.

    Thanks again,
    Paul
  • River RatRiver Rat Member Posts: 9,022
    edited November -1
    What a shame it had to be the '88. One awesome rifle; the last great Winchester design.
  • machine gun moranmachine gun moran Member Posts: 5,198
    edited November -1
    I took a handgun to FedEx for shipment. Their company rules specified that it had to be shipped 'next day delivery'. And then the FedEx clerk insisted that it had to be shipped 'next MORNING delivery at yet additional steep cost, or they wouldn't ship it at all. It seems that FedEx employees may be encouraged to f*** over people who are shipping guns, no matter what their rules say.
  • OakieOakie Member Posts: 40,519 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Iam absolutly sick to my stomache. Iam a winchester model 88 collector and have many of those rifles, in fact, I have a model 88 tattooed on my forearm. I will help you in your search for a new stock. Let me make some calls and look around for you. Fleabay does sell them once in a while. I would also look at all the auctions on GB. They do come up. I collect the post 64 and yours is a pre 64.I will get back to you if I find one and I know it needs to be in pristine condition. I wont look at any with scratches or nicks in them. Damn Iam pissed at fedex. I hope the guy whom broke it gets crotch rot[;)]. Oak

    [img][/img]img20120422102256.jpg
  • gitanogitano Member Posts: 30 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    This rifle could not be broken in this fashion by "dropping" it, and I have a just a little more difficulty believing that a Cabelas employee would ship a broken firearm than I do that it was broken in shipping, regardless of whether it was broken intentionally or not.

    I didn't say the shipping container was un-marked. I said it wasn't OBVIOUS at first glance. After I saw the breakage, I re-examined the box and it did indeed show signs of damage.

    This box wasn't "dropped". One of two things happened: Either they "bridged" lower boxes with this box then stacked REALLY HEAVY stuff on top of it, or someone stomped on it. It would be VERY difficult to perform this break without really TRYING. My belief is that a FedEx employee, knowing that it was a rifle and only to happy to "do his part" for "the cause" - especially after the Aurora and other recent shootings - INTENTIONALLY used this box to bridge other boxes and INTENTIONALLY stacked VERY HEAVY items on top of it KNOWING that in transit, it would get broken by normal shipping movement.

    All of that said, the reason I posted here WAS NOT TO 'rag on' FedEx or entertain a discussion about the pros and cons of our favorite shippers. I'll acknowledge that I opened that door with my frustrated comments about FedEx. Let me attempt to close that door and get this back on topic:

    I'm looking for a replacement stock for an "early" Winchester Model 88.

    Thanks,
    Paul
  • gitanogitano Member Posts: 30 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thanks Oakie - I sincerely appreciate the effort.

    Paul
  • OakieOakie Member Posts: 40,519 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Post over on the want ads for the stock while were looking. You might get lucky. Guys on GB are more then willing to help out.
  • gitanogitano Member Posts: 30 ✭✭
    edited November -1
  • gitanogitano Member Posts: 30 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I was wrong about the date of manufacture. It was 1956, (23,XXX) not 1961. :(

    Paul
  • Waco WaltzWaco Waltz Member Posts: 10,828 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'd like to see the box if possible?

    You'd have to have a lot of damage on the box to see that break. Or the rilfe would have had to be removed for the break and re inserted.

    Shippers should develope a seal system where by it can be seen if the package was opened during shipping.

    I've had rifles show up with the muzzel stiking out of a box too. Fact I get shipments all the time that raise my eye brow as a former shipping clerk. Most recently I got a shipment of silver and a little gold. Placed in a presentation type box. And the shipper wrapped it up in shipping tape! [V]
  • armilitearmilite Member Posts: 35,478 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    They have these do dads now that they can put on a box to tell if it was dropped. I forget what they are called exactly and they are not exactly cheap but they are available. Placing these on a box would give a shipper a priority of making sure they weren't man handled. Take it in to ship and show the shipper they weren't set off. Receive the shipment at the other end and if there tripped the shipper is automatically guilty.
  • armilitearmilite Member Posts: 35,478 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Did a little checking and they are called shock indicators. They are available in different G ratings and they are not as expensive as I thought. A few of these on a box would cost about $5. well worth the price.
  • OakieOakie Member Posts: 40,519 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I found one on GB for 325. It looks real nice. Type in (winchester model 88 stock) Good luck. John
  • jltrentjltrent Member Posts: 9,195 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    A little gorilla glue and it will be back together.
  • nutfinnnutfinn Member Posts: 12,804 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    FedEx SUX, UPS is way to go, they will even let you drop them ammo shipments at their location [:I]
  • TRAP55TRAP55 Member Posts: 8,270 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Big Sky Redneck got his M-1 Garand from Mark Christian, Mark does an excellent job of packing too. From what I saw, it looked like someone stomped this rifle to break it like this.

    Untitled.jpg

    This "was" a mint condition Arisaka cleaning rod that WhiteClouder received.

    100_1195.jpg

    More shipping monkey handiwork.

    split001.jpg
  • Sooeyman2035Sooeyman2035 Member Posts: 3,226
    edited November -1
    The above pictures are sickening!
  • JnRockwallJnRockwall Member Posts: 16,350 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Never had a gun destroyed in shipping. I have had a computer I built for a friend to be utterly destroyed by fedex and when I attempted to collect insurance I was told it was in fact assurance, not insurance.

    The difference being I was only assured the delivery of the item, not what condition it would arrive in.

    So after 4 hours on the phone working my way up to VP of marketing I FINALLY got them to send the money to build a new one. I was still out the money for labor. But the only way I get something from fedex is if I am forced. And most of the time, I will refuse to do business if it comes down to fedex.
  • 11BravoCrunchie11BravoCrunchie Member Posts: 33,423 ✭✭
    edited November -1
  • Ox190Ox190 Member Posts: 2,782 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    "Based on personal experience, the experience of others I know personally and the reports of reliable sources on the internet, this breakage is "normal" for FedEx. In fact, it is my personal belief based on the frequency of occurrence with FedEx and the rarity of occurrence with other shippers, (NEVER in 15 years of personally shipping guns around the country), that FedEx intentionally breaks/destroys firearms. It may be something that occurs whenever they x-ray boxes for "overseas" shipments to Alaska or anywhere else where FedEx is called on to x-ray the contents of a package and they find out it is a firearm. I realize this may sound "paranoid", but I assure you that I am not "that sort" of person."


    That may be the most ignorant part of your post. Why would any company intentionally break/destroy ANYTHING? FedEx ships thousands of guns a day. 90%+ of damages on ANY shipment, not just guns, are caused by improper packaging. You'd be amazed at what you think is proper packaging is severely under what it needs to be. Your packages are touched by mechanical devices, which to my knowledge are completely impartial, more than they are human hands. And where do you think FedEx "Xrays" these shipments? Do you think in a sort system where they move millions of packages a night they seriously have time to Xray packages?
  • GashaulerGashauler Member Posts: 2,281 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by TRAP55
    Big Sky Redneck got his M-1 Garand from Mark Christian, Mark does an excellent job of packing too. From what I saw, it looked like someone stomped this rifle to break it like this.

    Untitled.jpg

    This "was" a mint condition Arisaka cleaning rod that WhiteClouder received.

    100_1195.jpg

    More shipping monkey handiwork.

    split001.jpg

    Between these pics and the original pic of the 88 I think I have thrown up in my mouth twice now. Those almost literally hurt me.
  • owen219owen219 Member Posts: 3,799
    edited November -1
    They recently broke a stock on my Remington Woodsmaster that I had shipped from Kasey.
  • gitanogitano Member Posts: 30 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    OAKIE - That stock is not for the older version. It is inlet for the "round" receiver. The older ones like the one I bought has the "clover leaf" receiver.

    Zulu7 - Thanks for the link.

    Waco Waltz - Here you go:
    IMG_0565.jpg

    IMG_0567.jpg

    IMG_0566.jpg

    A box could be stomped or "bridged" without showing too much damage. Like I said above, at first glance there was nothing about the box that was any worse than many other boxes I have seen. It was only after I took the rifle out that I went back and looked closer at the box. The box was clearly bent at the crease and it was 'torn' at the crease on the short side.

    Regardless of my personal opinion on the matter, I think if one were to look around the web, they would find that the incidences of problems with FedEx gun shipments far, FAR outnumber those with other shippers. This thread alone would support that supposition. Cabelas has already offered to refund my money, so the "recovery" from FedEx is an issue between Cabelas and FedEx, not FedEx and me.

    Thanks for your help so far,
    Paul

    OX 190 - The jaskassedness of your post doesn't warrant more response than this.
  • JimmyJackJimmyJack Member Posts: 5,385 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have one new in the box, that is perfect, pre 64, but you would have to take the rest of the rifle to get it. Actually Im not planning on selling it unless someone makes me a rediculous offer.
  • gitanogitano Member Posts: 30 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    NIB "Early" Model 88?

    That's rare!

    Paul
  • Ox190Ox190 Member Posts: 2,782 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by gitano
    OAKIE - That stock is not for the older version. It is inlet for the "round" receiver. The older ones like the one I bought has the "clover leaf" receiver.

    Zulu7 - Thanks for the link.

    Waco Waltz - Here you go:
    IMG_0565.jpg

    IMG_0567.jpg

    IMG_0566.jpg

    A box could be stomped or "bridged" without showing too much damage. Like I said above, at first glance there was nothing about the box that was any worse than many other boxes I have seen. It was only after I took the rifle out that I went back and looked closer at the box. The box was clearly bent at the crease and it was 'torn' at the crease on the short side.

    Regardless of my personal opinion on the matter, I think if one were to look around the web, they would find that the incidences of problems with FedEx gun shipments far, FAR outnumber those with other shippers. This thread alone would support that supposition. Cabelas has already offered to refund my money, so the "recovery" from FedEx is an issue between Cabelas and FedEx, not FedEx and me.

    Thanks for your help so far,
    Paul

    OX 190 - The jaskassedness of your post doesn't warrant more response than this.


    Yeah you're right what would I know, only 13 yrs working in the shipping industry.
  • Waco WaltzWaco Waltz Member Posts: 10,828 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Just my un educated opinion but the damage on the box is not consistant with a simple drop. Walnut stocks are awful tough. Just looks like the rifle was pinched between something solid and something moving with a bit of force.


    I've never loaded a shipment of various stuff you see in say UPS. But I would think that the trailers are loaded with the maximum content for the sake of economy. SO you really should have little to NO play in the movement of the parcels.

    Does Fed Ex break rifles on purpose? No in that it's not company policy but that does not say some employees in some areas of the country don't do it for political reasons. It's the perfect crime. Don't steal the guns and no one's going to come sniffing around. Break them here and there and crap happens you know?

    Short of someone backing over the rifle with a truck and the rifle being proped up or on something soild I don't see any reason for the damage. And I don't know why the parcels would be placed anywhere but a laoding dock or trailer in rout.

    I suppose someone with a palet jack loaded with really heavy stuff could have lost his load. If so could have been a person in the way just the same.
  • Ox190Ox190 Member Posts: 2,782 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Waco Waltz
    Just my un educated opinion but the damage on the box is not consistant with a simple drop. Walnut stocks are awful tough. Just looks like the rifle was pinched between something solid and something moving with a bit of force.


    I've never loaded a shipment of various stuff you see in say UPS. But I would think that the trailers are loaded with the maximum content for the sake of economy. SO you really should have little to NO play in the movement of the parcels.

    Does Fed Ex break rifles on purpose? No in that it's not company policy but that does not say some employees in some areas of the country don't do it for political reasons. It's the perfect crime. Don't steal the guns and no one's going to come sniffing around. Break them here and there and crap happens you know?

    Short of someone backing over the rifle with a truck and the rifle being proped up or on something soild I don't see any reason for the damage. And I don't know why the parcels would be placed anywhere but a laoding dock or trailer in rout.

    I suppose someone with a palet jack loaded with really heavy stuff could have lost his load. If so could have been a person in the way just the same.


    It's called a belt jam, and it happens all the time. A turn on the conveyor belt and long box get stuck in it, then another box moving along comes up and hits it, or multiple boxes hit it until it either clears itself, or someone notices, stops the belt and clears it manually.
  • retroxler58retroxler58 Member Posts: 32,693 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Might I suggest a "solution" to the situation???

    See the thread:
    http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=570864
  • Locust ForkLocust Fork Member Posts: 31,617 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by owen219
    They recently broke a stock on my Remington Woodsmaster that I had shipped from Kasey.


    I forgot about that one....I am sorry. I have shipped so many things and in all of these years to have the number of firearms go through Fed Ex without having the things that people here are describing just seems uncanny. A couple people are suggesting that they "purposely" break guns. If that were the case.....SURELY I would be a victim of this. So, I am convinced that the idea that "Fed Ex breaks guns on purpose" is untrue.
    LOCUST FORK CURRENT AUCTIONS: https://www.gunbroker.com/All/search?Sort=13&IncludeSellers=618902&PageSize=48 Listings added every Thursday! We do consignments, contact us at mckaygunsales@gmail.com
  • gitanogitano Member Posts: 30 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Just my un educated opinion but the damage on the box is not consistant with a simple drop. Walnut stocks are awful tough. Just looks like the rifle was pinched between something solid and something moving with a bit of force.


    I've never loaded a shipment of various stuff you see in say UPS. But I would think that the trailers are loaded with the maximum content for the sake of economy. SO you really should have little to NO play in the movement of the parcels.

    Does Fed Ex break rifles on purpose? No in that it's not company policy but that does not say some employees in some areas of the country don't do it for political reasons. It's the perfect crime. Don't steal the guns and no one's going to come sniffing around. Break them here and there and crap happens you know?

    Short of someone backing over the rifle with a truck and the rifle being proped up or on something soild I don't see any reason for the damage. And I don't know why the parcels would be placed anywhere but a laoding dock or trailer in rout.

    I suppose someone with a palet jack loaded with really heavy stuff could have lost his load. If so could have been a person in the way just the same.

    This is pretty much exactly my opinion. The reason for considering that FedEx DOES break firearms on purpose, is that when one tallies the broken firearms shipped by FedEx and the ones shipped by ALL the other shippers COMBINED, FedEx "wins", and not by "a little bit". That's suspicious, pure and simple. Furthermore, the more times a given parcel is handled, like those that have to go farther, the greater the likelihood of a 'gorilla' handling it, a "machine" mangling it, or an "activist" doing something for "the cause". However, that's all true for EVERY carrier. Why does FedEx have such a HIGH rate of breakage with firearms, compared to other carriers, and why do they fight 'tooth-and-nail' about acknowledging responsibility for gun damage, but don't complain AT ALL about responsibility for EVERY other form of damage. As I said, that suspicious, pure and simple.

    THANK YOU VERY MUCH, retroxler58,
    Paul
  • TRAP55TRAP55 Member Posts: 8,270 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
  • Waco WaltzWaco Waltz Member Posts: 10,828 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    ON the other hand a belt jam, something I've never heard of or seen the equipment this can happen on sounds plausable.

    Last rifle I shipped was two guns for repair to century and I broke both rifles down so the box did not even look like a gun box. It was more economical to ship two guns in a smaller box and it also took attention away from those looking for gun boxes to steal. :)

    NO belt jam shape to the box either.
  • gitanogitano Member Posts: 30 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thanks, Trap55. Those are reproductions, and I may end up that route, but before I do I want to try to find a "take-off".

    Paul
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