please give me a 'basics course' on Makarovs..

Throckmorton

Heard about 'em for years,don't know a lot about 'em.Seem very affordable and no one says much bad about 'em...if anything.
are they new production.are they all mil-spec?Are some countries' guns considered better than others?blowback operated?single action?
Lots of ??,little knowledge on'em.
Thanks guys!

Throckmortons' the alias,cas is the game.

22WRF

Lots of info here

http://makarov.com/

mark christian

Nice little pistols barrowing heavily from the Waltehr PP. Most are chambered (at least originally) for the 9X18mm Makarov cartridge which fits in a nitch somewhere between the .380 and 9mm Parabellum (Luger). These are simple blowback operated double action pistols which use a fixed barrel and tend to give little trouble in service. The triggers are nothing special and neither are the sights, but they get the job done. Right now the most common of the Makarovs are the Bulgarians which can be eitehr new commercial production or ex-police guns and these represent an outstanding value in my opiion. There are also some former East German Maks on the market and I consider these the best of the breed with fit and finish well above the others. Russian/Soviet Makarovs were imported for brief time in the early 1990's and are tough to find but are worth considering if you don't mind paying a premium. The Russians can be found in both military/police configuration as well as a commercial pistol with adjustable sights and a thumbrest grip...a sort of target Makarov with better fit and finish. Typically the ChiCom Makarovs are at the bottom of the quality pool but they work and can serve as inexpensive plinkers. There are other makes of Maks out there and all are basically the same pistol in design and function identically. You will often come across Maks chambered for the .380 cartridge, especially ChiComs and many of these were among the first imported in the mid 1980s before the 9mm Makarov cartridge was widely available in this country and the .380 chambering was considered to be an advantage on the American market. These days 9mm Makarov is so cheap and easily available most folks prefer it to the .380. Pick up a Bulgarian Makarov for a starter and I'll bet you'll want another...I know!


"Nothing can ever be made 'idiot proof' because idiots are simply too clever"!
Mark T. Christian

chunkstyle

I have 4. 2 Bulgarians, and 2 Russians, with Bulgarian import marks, so they were made in Russia, then sold to the Bulgarians, then exported to the US. All Maks work very well (though I can't speak for the Chinese, as I've never fired one), and are quite accurate, considering the short barrel length, as the barrel is fixed to the frame. They are reliable and concealable.

At current prices, they are one of the best gun deals out there.

Feel free to e-mail me if you have any more specific questions about them.


"Every child had a pretty good shot,
To get at least as far as their old man got,
But something happened on the way to that place,
They threw an American flag in our face."
-Billy Joel, "Allentown"

Throckmorton

Just the info I needed.Thanks!!
I see a Mak in my future,for sure.I have .380 loading stuff so will get the additional barrel too.
Thanks again!

Throckmortons' the alias,cas is the game.

tr fox

Sorry everyone, just gotta add this "counterpoint".

Does anyone wonder exactly why most (perhaps all) of the worlds gun manufactureres refuse to design a semi-auto action such as found on the Makarov? I am referring to the somewhat unusual fixed barrel on the Makarov as compared to the delayed blowback or roller cam operated actions on most other semi-auto pistols. Yes, I know that at least two carbines/rifles (Marlin or Ruger) has straight blowback and it works fine, but that is another story.

The only reason the Makarov can function with a fixed barrell is because the chamber is extra tight and causes "striction" upon the round when the action is trying to exject the spent round. This means the gun is designed to cause the fired round to almost "hangup" in the chamber but because of the close design the gun is able to overcome the striction and is able to eject the fired round and chamber a fresh round.

I myself feel this is cheap and careless engineering and want nothing to do with such a design.

Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"

Hangfire

quote:Originally posted by tr fox
Sorry everyone, just gotta add this "counterpoint".

Does anyone wonder exactly why most (perhaps all) of the worlds gun manufactureres refuse to design a semi-auto action such as found on the Makarov? I am referring to the somewhat unusual fixed barrel on the Makarov as compared to the delayed blowback or roller cam operated actions on most other semi-auto pistols. Yes, I know that at least two carbines/rifles (Marlin or Ruger) has straight blowback and it works fine, but that is another story.

The only reason the Makarov can function with a fixed barrell is because the chamber is extra tight and causes "striction" upon the round when the action is trying to exject the spent round. This means the gun is designed to cause the fired round to almost "hangup" in the chamber but because of the close design the gun is able to overcome the striction and is able to eject the fired round and chamber a fresh round.

I myself feel this is cheap and careless engineering and want nothing to do with such a design.

Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"


What[?]
Nevermind...maybe Mark will want to tackle this.Walther,Colt, Smith, Ruger,High Standard,Browning and others don't seem especially cheap or careless to me.

Love them Pre-64's!!!!-Bob

tr fox

Yeah, well how many of those several manufacturers that you mentioned have produced and sold a fixed barrell on a pistol in a caliber with the power such as a 9x18 or 9x19 mm?

Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"

chunkstyle

This is actually a valid point. The egnieers at Walther back in the '20s struggled with this, ultimately producing the PP series of pistols, using only a barrel-wrapped mainspring as the means of keeping the chamber closed in battery. During WWII, these same engineers developed the 9x18 Police round, as a reach toward the maximum power this design allows. When the Russians overran much of Germany, these engineers were tapped for Russian pistol design, combined with native Russian talent, and the result was the Makarov. Later (like the 70's), a rebuilt Walther engineering dept. developed the 9x18 Ultra round, near the maximum power indeed. Now, even more powerful blowback designs are possible, and have been implemented in Russia, but they involve traction grooves on the inside of the chamber, deforming the case as it ejects.

Anyway, the idea that this design is somehow inferior to a delay-locked breech, at least in this power range, is false. The Makarov, the Walther PP, PPK, and the H&K 4 are all examples of highly reliable design. Sure, you can't shoot .45 ACP (or even 9mmPara) out of them, but they work well.

"Every child had a pretty good shot,
To get at least as far as their old man got,
But something happened on the way to that place,
They threw an American flag in our face."
-Billy Joel, "Allentown"

tr fox

very, very interesting and I thank you for informing me. But I still would prefer to avoid the design if reasonablly possible.

Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"

Hangfire

Well said Chunkstyle-I agree. I was just taken back by the condemnation of fixed bbls and straight blowback actions and " tight chambers". There was no mention of caliber so 22's would have been included.

Love them Pre-64's!!!!-Bob

tr fox

I thought the suject was the 9x18 Makarov and felt no need to mention .22 or some such.

But I consider a "deformed case" to be abnormal and do not want to depend upon the case deforming to just exactly the right amount in order for me to be able to depend upon the handgun functioning properly, especially if my life depends upon it.

For example, if you depend upon the case deforming to just the right amount for the gun to properly function, what happens it you get so new ammo and that ammo deforms more or even less than is expected? Then just how dependable is your firearm?

I feel these are questions that people should consider.

Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"

Hangfire

quote:Originally posted by tr fox
Sorry everyone, just gotta add this "counterpoint".

Does anyone wonder exactly why most (perhaps all) of the worlds gun manufactureres refuse to design a semi-auto action such as found on the Makarov? I am referring to the somewhat unusual fixed barrel on the Makarov as compared to the delayed blowback or roller cam operated actions on most other semi-auto pistols.


I myself feel this is cheap and careless engineering and want nothing to do with such a design.

Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"


I give up!!!Deformed case???

Mr. Fox ...The chamber in a Walther PPK .32 auto is the same as in a 1903 Colt.A PPK 380 is the same as a Colt 1908 or Beretta 84. I'm through.

Love them Pre-64's!!!!-Bob


Mark...Howcome you went to bed so early!!!![8D]

mark christian

Oh thanks alot hangfire, just pass this one along to me. The 9mm Makarov is a moderate pressure round in the same catagory as the .380 ACP with a chamber pressure below 25,000 PSI. The 9mm Luger on the other hand developes around 35,000 PSI and demands some sort of locked breech. Without some form of locking firearms chambered for 9mm Parabellum either needs a 1 pound bolt or an action spring as powerful as the one used to lift a garage door. An example of the former method would be the Stallard Arms/HiPoint JS-9s which use massively heavy slides in order to operate as straight blowbacks. An example of the former waa the Dreyes "Military" Model which had an action spring so stout that in order to cock the pistol you actually used a special loading lever which disengaged itself from the pistols action to allowed a round to be chambered seperately. Once fired the 9mm cartridge provided the power to overcome the pistols massive action spring, cycle the action, recock the striker and prepare for another shot. These things were a real mess and if you've ever fired one you'd know what I was talking about. The only other blow back 9mm pistols were the Spanish Astra Model 400 which actually used a sort of buffer consisiting of a steel plate mounted inside the receiver below the chamber with a coil spring behind it to dampen the recoil blow. Those are the 9mm Parabellum blow back pistols that I am aware of...but I have not yet seen an example of every firearm produced (but I am closing in).

The only two retarded (delayed) blowback pistols I am know of consist of the Czech Vz52 and the old HK P9/P9S series of handguns. No one else has chosen to go that route since the more common Browning "swing link" and Browning "cam", or the "locking wedge" from the Walther P38 and Beretta Model 92 are just as reliable and effective, less expensive, and much easier to fit into the confines of a handgun's action. The barrel on the Makarov is fixed because the original Walther PP design found that there was no reason to add the complication of a movable the barrel to a blow back operated handgun. Walther's competitors over at Mauser felt otherwise and the folks at Oberndorf deisgned their HSc with a barrel which is easily removed from the frame along with the slide. There are plenty of pros and cons on the virtues of the HSc vs. PP (I have examples of each) but I have never heard the issue of a removable barrel as a factor except that the PP with a fixed barrel can be easily silenced while the HSc cannot.

When the hammer drops on a loaded round the bullet moves forward and since there is an equal but opposite reaction the cartridge case moves to the rear. The weight of the slide and its spring vs. the power of the 9mm Makarov service cartridge is enormous but given time the cartridge overcomes its mechanical disadvantage and pushes the slide to the rear and opens the breech but by this time the bullet has left the barrel and pressures have dropped down to safe levels. The rim of the cartridge is grasped at all times by the extractor and when the case passes over a fixed ejector the spent case is tossed out of the pistol taking a considerable amount of heat with it. Where does "striction" fit into this equation? Walther developed the PP (which the Makarov is simply a copy of) back in 1929 and if you feel that it is based on cheap and careless engineering you stand in a very small group of people who've been pretty darned satisified with the design for 75+ years!

"Nothing can ever be made 'idiot proof' because idiots are simply too clever"!
Mark T. Christian

mark christian

I just though of something. Mr. Fox, we are talking about Makarovs here and not the much more powerful Tokarov round which demands a locked breech. I seem to recall we went around in circles on this once before due to a mix up in cartridges.

"Nothing can ever be made 'idiot proof' because idiots are simply too clever"!
Mark T. Christian

Hangfire

I'm really sorry Mark...I owe you one[8D]

Super reply!!!

Love them Pre-64's!!!!-Bob

BTW- doesn't the H&K P-7 series use a gas delayed Blowback ?