Why does....

Mr. Gunz

....no one like the belted magnums, what are the advantages vs the disadvantages?

Pearyw

The 2 things I don't like are the fact that they usually have less magazine capacity in a bolt rifle and they head space off the belt like a rimmed case.

1KYDSTR

It's sort of a Chevy guy vs. the Mopar guy scenario. Simply (I'll try anyway) put, the belt area provides a fair bit more beef in the area of the brass cartridge (the webb) that moves the most under the pressure of firing, but not a whole bunch. They (belts) also prevent the user accidentally inserting and firing a similar dimensioned cartridge in the wrong rifle (best current example would be the 45-70 and 450 Marlin rounds. The Marlin round having been developed to handle the higher performance the newer lever guns are capable of handling without the issue of the new "hotter" rounds getting into an older 45-70 rifle. Then there is the name appeal...a "belted magnum" is a cool sounding appelation and the buyer might want that kind of exclusivity. I have been led to "understand" also that most of these cartridges headspace off the belt...but I keep reading also that most headspace off the shoulder like almost any other cartridge? There is a puzzler. If you are interseted in vintage Safari guns most are belted mags, like the 458 Win Mag and the 264 Win Mag and 300 and 338 too, but it has been a while since anyone came out with a truely new one. Also, one has to wonder why Remington came out with the RUM line (these things are really cannons in my experience) that has no belt if one is truely needed for this kind of performance

In the end appraisal...there aren't a whole bunch of new belted "magnum" type cartridges produced in the last 30 years or so, so one should likely consider them as becoming a bit obsolete, or into the rhealm of collector guns. I'm sure I am going to take a beating for my opinion on this issue, but it is just that...although a well formed opinion built on lots of range time and shooting/reloading. Best Regards, and decide for yourself after reading lots of posts about this stuff...you are the one to decide in the end.

perry shooter

Hello while I agree with the other 2 post I might add How I think the belted MAGNUM came about and why I don't think it is the best way to go. The 300 H&H is one of the grand-daddies of the belted magnums. I believe this came about because it was mostly a tapered case without much of a shoulder and hard to headspace then the other MAGNUMS followed suit. However I think a non belted cartridge is the better mouse trap. If you MIKE the belt on many cartridges they vary all over the place and in todays newer cartridges SHORT & FAT seems to be the way to go "as far as I know no bench rest cartridges are belted" The belt does not even go up to the inside base of the cartridge so it not add strength to the case except in the area of bolt thrust but straight walled with high angle shoulders in case design do not develop as much bolt thrust as a tapered case .Why would you want to reduce powder capacity by reducing the diameter of the case right at the base . The better IMHO is a larger magnum size head extended this size in an almost straight case to the shoulder. Now the third point most people will agree the 50 BMG is a stout round IT DOES NOT HAVE A BELT nuff said [:p][:p][:p]Hello givette I have no way for knowing for sure but I suspect your salesman was very good at making a gun seem more desirable. But I would ask the question have you ever reloaded any cases from rounds shot in this rifle ? if you have did they take a lot of effort to resize? If not then the chamber is standard . Lets remember the 300 H& H as well as the 375 H&H are very close to the 100 year mark and I don't think any one reloaded these rounds back then and maybe the chambers were bigger interesting point.

givette

Belted magnums....well, back in the old days in hot tropical climes, one had the headspace "forgiveness" of a rimmed cart. and the superior qualities of a rimless...feeding, extraction, etc. .375 H&H rifles designed in 1912 had (relative statement here) sloppy chambers. Something to do with extraction reliability in hot, tropical climates. I was told by the dealer when I bought my .375 Whitworth that my new aquisition came with the chambering that Holland and Holland originally designed the round for. To anyone reading this...does that mean that later chamberings for the .375 have closer tolerances? I'd like to know, if anyone would care to comment. Best, Joe

EDIT: spelling corrections

bpost

quote:Originally posted by givette
Belted magnums....well, back in the old days in hot tropical climes, one had the headspace "forgiveness" of a rimmed cart. and the superior qualities of a rimless...feeding, extraction, etc. .375 H&H rifles designed in 1912 had (relative statement here) sloppy chambers. Something to do with extraction reliability in hot, tropical climates. I was told by the dealer when I bought my .375 Whitworth that my new aquisition came with the chambering that Holland and Holland originally designed the round for. To anyone reading this...does that mean that later chamberings for the .375 have closer tolerances? I'd like to know, if anyone would care to comment. Best, Joe

EDIT: spelling corrections


Smokeless powders were in their infancy in 1912. Heat and humidity was a problem for powder makers at the time, (pre air-conditioning). Increased pressures and sticking cases was a real possibility and very bad when the buffalo was mad at you.. In colder climates the performance could be a lot less than desirable cold made for lower pressures. It was a function of the powders not the case being the issue in those days.
Manufacturing tolerances and machining capabilities were stone age compared to today. Steels were a lot less refined and consistent from batch to batch. Things could not be mass produced to the level of repeatability we can do today with CNC machining.

Chambers and ammo simply had more variances built into them.

Chambers meet SAMMI specs or they do not. Today guns are mass produced to SAMMI specifications the allowable tolerances are specified. I am not aware of any change in specifications for the .375 H&H magnum. The ABILITY of holding closer tolerances is better than in the past but it does not mean today's chambers are better or worse than chambers of the past. Your gun dealer is quite the salesman IMO. There is no mention of a change in the .375H&H in the Cartridges of The World 10th edition.

givette

To Bpost: What a real dummy I am! If I thought about it I could have answered my own question! Of course the chambers wouldn't be dimensionally different between then and now. A modern manufacturer will use SAAMI specs when chambering for a civilian rifle. And it stands to reason that back when SAAMI was being organized into a comprehensive listing of various chamberings, etc. Holland and Holland was consulted for their proprietary chamber dimensions. And H&H gave them to SAAMI..along with the 1912 tolerances to accomodate the cordite temperature/pressure irregularities. The man who sold me the .375 was being cute, real cute. Anyway, the Whitworth is an excellent firearm. Have a good night! Joe

bpost

quote:Originally posted by givette
To Bpost: What a real dummy I am! If I thought about it I could have answered my own question! Of course the chambers wouldn't be dimensionally different between then and now. A modern manufacturer will use SAAMI specs when chambering for a civilian rifle. And it stands to reason that back when SAAMI was being organized into a comprehensive listing of various chamberings, etc. Holland and Holland was consulted for their proprietary chamber dimensions. And H&H gave them to SAAMI..along with the 1912 tolerances to accomodate the cordite temperature/pressure irregularities. The man who sold me the .375 was being cute, real cute. Anyway, the Whitworth is an excellent firearm. Have a good night! Joe


I like shooting my .375 H&H on the Encore frame. It is even more pleasureable to shoot with cast bullets. Out to about 150 yards it would be a great deer rifle using cast bullets. The nice flat meplat would put a world of hurt on a deer. I am getting about 2" groups at 100 yards with cast bullets.

I don't shoot rifles with this level of recoil off a bench with factory or reloaded jacketed bullet loads. I don't mind recoil but shooting a .375 H&H off of a bench is a bit much in my book. I shot a Whitworth in .458 years ago, I was impressed with the quality of work done on the rifle. Good luck!

nononsense

Mr. Gunz,

"Why does...., ....no one like the belted magnums, what are the advantages vs the disadvantages?"

I'm not sure that I would say 'no one' because it eliminates me and several others that still create and use the belted magnums with great results.

The 'controversy' is used to stimulate sales of various products.

I think what you see is the yammerings from the reactions to stories written and fed by the mag writers who just want to sell stories by creating controversy though dissention. The more attention paid to the story and the more mail that the mags get, the more money the author can demand for his stuff. If you got a better representation of opinions, I don't think it would appear to be so slanted.

I don't see listing out the Pros and Cons because everything right is good and everything that's wrong, I don't see that way. Call it playing Devil's Advocate...

The belt was created as the positive control point for headspace on the .375 H&H because the shoulder was not consistant enough for reliable safety. You can miss out on a terrific group of cartridges by listening to the belt haters.

You can lose the equivalent of one cartridge capacity in some magazines. How many shots do you need? I use one when hunting (maybe 2 for some) and the specific competition sets the parameters for each game and most of them that I shoot are single shot anyway.

Problems feeding from the magazine? Get the gunsmith to do it right the first time. If they don't understand the geometry of feeding take it to someone else.

Re-sizing problems? Learn how to set your dies up properly or buy a good set of dies. Not all rifles like to have the shoulder touch in the chamber. Push it back a couple of thousandths. Maybe yours like contact on both the shoulder and the front of the belt. Neck size or partial re-size.

Inaccurate? Don't tell the guys shooting the .300 Win. Mag. and winning in competitions or sniper drills. The .30-.338 is a wildcat that still gets rave reviews for long distance accuracy.

Unreliable? Don't suggest that to the hunters using them in magazine fed rifles to shoot Dangerous Game in Africa. They will explain that you need a good gunsmith or a better quality rifle built correctly. See above.

You can find these disagreements throughout the web and in print in the sports magazines. It really doesn't matter since the whole thing is a pendulum anyway. It always swings back around.

Best.

rsnyder55

My 300 Weatherby puts 3 shots inside a dime at 100 yards.

ChetStafford

I have two belted mags. one in .264 win mag and one in .300 Weatherby mag I did not buy either of them because they were belted I bought them because they had the ballistics I wanted. The only real question is the cartridge capable of performing the task you want it for whether it is belted or not [;)]