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Why does....
Mr. Gunz
Member Posts: 1,621 ✭✭✭
....no one like the belted magnums, what are the advantages vs the disadvantages?
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In the end appraisal...there aren't a whole bunch of new belted "magnum" type cartridges produced in the last 30 years or so, so one should likely consider them as becoming a bit obsolete, or into the rhealm of collector guns. I'm sure I am going to take a beating for my opinion on this issue, but it is just that...although a well formed opinion built on lots of range time and shooting/reloading. Best Regards, and decide for yourself after reading lots of posts about this stuff...you are the one to decide in the end.
EDIT: spelling corrections
Belted magnums....well, back in the old days in hot tropical climes, one had the headspace "forgiveness" of a rimmed cart. and the superior qualities of a rimless...feeding, extraction, etc. .375 H&H rifles designed in 1912 had (relative statement here) sloppy chambers. Something to do with extraction reliability in hot, tropical climates. I was told by the dealer when I bought my .375 Whitworth that my new aquisition came with the chambering that Holland and Holland originally designed the round for. To anyone reading this...does that mean that later chamberings for the .375 have closer tolerances? I'd like to know, if anyone would care to comment. Best, Joe
EDIT: spelling corrections
Smokeless powders were in their infancy in 1912. Heat and humidity was a problem for powder makers at the time, (pre air-conditioning). Increased pressures and sticking cases was a real possibility and very bad when the buffalo was mad at you.. In colder climates the performance could be a lot less than desirable cold made for lower pressures. It was a function of the powders not the case being the issue in those days.
Manufacturing tolerances and machining capabilities were stone age compared to today. Steels were a lot less refined and consistent from batch to batch. Things could not be mass produced to the level of repeatability we can do today with CNC machining.
Chambers and ammo simply had more variances built into them.
Chambers meet SAMMI specs or they do not. Today guns are mass produced to SAMMI specifications the allowable tolerances are specified. I am not aware of any change in specifications for the .375 H&H magnum. The ABILITY of holding closer tolerances is better than in the past but it does not mean today's chambers are better or worse than chambers of the past. Your gun dealer is quite the salesman IMO. There is no mention of a change in the .375H&H in the Cartridges of The World 10th edition.
To Bpost: What a real dummy I am! If I thought about it I could have answered my own question! Of course the chambers wouldn't be dimensionally different between then and now. A modern manufacturer will use SAAMI specs when chambering for a civilian rifle. And it stands to reason that back when SAAMI was being organized into a comprehensive listing of various chamberings, etc. Holland and Holland was consulted for their proprietary chamber dimensions. And H&H gave them to SAAMI..along with the 1912 tolerances to accomodate the cordite temperature/pressure irregularities. The man who sold me the .375 was being cute, real cute. Anyway, the Whitworth is an excellent firearm. Have a good night! Joe
I like shooting my .375 H&H on the Encore frame. It is even more pleasureable to shoot with cast bullets. Out to about 150 yards it would be a great deer rifle using cast bullets. The nice flat meplat would put a world of hurt on a deer. I am getting about 2" groups at 100 yards with cast bullets.
I don't shoot rifles with this level of recoil off a bench with factory or reloaded jacketed bullet loads. I don't mind recoil but shooting a .375 H&H off of a bench is a bit much in my book. I shot a Whitworth in .458 years ago, I was impressed with the quality of work done on the rifle. Good luck!
"Why does...., ....no one like the belted magnums, what are the advantages vs the disadvantages?"
I'm not sure that I would say 'no one' because it eliminates me and several others that still create and use the belted magnums with great results.
The 'controversy' is used to stimulate sales of various products.
I think what you see is the yammerings from the reactions to stories written and fed by the mag writers who just want to sell stories by creating controversy though dissention. The more attention paid to the story and the more mail that the mags get, the more money the author can demand for his stuff. If you got a better representation of opinions, I don't think it would appear to be so slanted.
I don't see listing out the Pros and Cons because everything right is good and everything that's wrong, I don't see that way. Call it playing Devil's Advocate...
The belt was created as the positive control point for headspace on the .375 H&H because the shoulder was not consistant enough for reliable safety. You can miss out on a terrific group of cartridges by listening to the belt haters.
You can lose the equivalent of one cartridge capacity in some magazines. How many shots do you need? I use one when hunting (maybe 2 for some) and the specific competition sets the parameters for each game and most of them that I shoot are single shot anyway.
Problems feeding from the magazine? Get the gunsmith to do it right the first time. If they don't understand the geometry of feeding take it to someone else.
Re-sizing problems? Learn how to set your dies up properly or buy a good set of dies. Not all rifles like to have the shoulder touch in the chamber. Push it back a couple of thousandths. Maybe yours like contact on both the shoulder and the front of the belt. Neck size or partial re-size.
Inaccurate? Don't tell the guys shooting the .300 Win. Mag. and winning in competitions or sniper drills. The .30-.338 is a wildcat that still gets rave reviews for long distance accuracy.
Unreliable? Don't suggest that to the hunters using them in magazine fed rifles to shoot Dangerous Game in Africa. They will explain that you need a good gunsmith or a better quality rifle built correctly. See above.
You can find these disagreements throughout the web and in print in the sports magazines. It really doesn't matter since the whole thing is a pendulum anyway. It always swings back around.
Best.