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Navy to Discharge All who refuse Covid -19 shot

serfserf Member Posts: 9,225 ✭✭✭✭

How much you wanna bet that if your post is a very important one with highly skill knowledge that you get an exception, but if you are just a regular sailor it'* the door and get out now!

serf

https://news.usni.org/2021/10/14/new-navy-guidance-will-discharge-sailors-refusing-covid-19-vaccination-without-exemption

Any active-duty Navy service members who do not get fully vaccinated or do not have an approved or pending exemption will be processed for an honorable separation without involuntary separation, according to NAVADMIN 225/21, released by Vice Chief of Naval Operations Adm. William Lescher and Chief of Naval Personnel Vice Adm. John Nowell.

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Comments

  • chiefrchiefr Member Posts: 13,013 ✭✭✭✭

    Not new news.

    Same with the contentious Anthrax shots and all other shots. Follow orders or get an Article 15 followed by a general discharge package. For all services, not just navy.

  • serfserf Member Posts: 9,225 ✭✭✭✭

    Yep soon they will make it mandatory for all regardless one way or another. Civilians and Government workers for sure.I doubt they can make you if you're self independent, but if you wish to use a service well or be admitted to a domain ,you won't be going to do either if you need to use them regardless.

    serf

  • Don McManusDon McManus Member Posts: 23,138 ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2021

    The bigger picture of course, is that these tyrants are attempting to create a submissive military that will blindly follow orders, regardless of how closely they approach the ‘lawful’ threshold.

    A submissive military charged with the suppression of activities or people deemed dangerous to the planned tyranny is a great danger foreseen and addressed in our Constitution.

    Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.

    Brad Steele
  • Mr. PerfectMr. Perfect Member, Moderator Posts: 63,836 ******

    That's how I see it. Weed out those you can't control 100% and then you can make them turn on their fellow citizens. Mao used teenagers as enforcers, and no surprise the most compliant are the young in our military.

    Some will die in hot pursuit
    And fiery auto crashes
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    While sifting through my ashes
    Some will fall in love with life
    And drink it from a fountain
    That is pouring like an avalanche
    Coming down the mountain
  • Don McManusDon McManus Member Posts: 23,138 ✭✭✭✭

    Agreed, Randy.

    Please note that would be tyrants are using the same technique in law enforcement as is being done to the WSP right now. Of those that gave up their jobs, I would bet a good number were vaccinated and just decided that acquiescing to a demand for papers was something they could not do.

    In the near term, the taming of local and state law enforcement is a bigger danger than is the US Military. As the left continues to destroy our economy and implement idiocraties that marginalize our existence, it will become ever-easier to sway the compliant into the role of enforcer, not unlike was done under Mao as you point out. Filling their heads with visions of power and significance that they know would have been impossible for them to have achieved on their own.

    Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.

    Brad Steele
  • serfserf Member Posts: 9,225 ✭✭✭✭

    The sheriff law enforcement agencies in rural areas is big one for the Marxist. I heard they want to charge all Navy Seals and military pilots for schooling/training them which if true is insane,

    serf

  • select-fireselect-fire Member Posts: 69,482 ✭✭✭✭

    Y'all forgot who they signed up with...The Govt. So if they don't want to follow the chain of command...

  • Don McManusDon McManus Member Posts: 23,138 ✭✭✭✭

    The policy is what is in question, SF, not the individual service members’ actions. Bigger picture by far.

    Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.

    Brad Steele
  • select-fireselect-fire Member Posts: 69,482 ✭✭✭✭

    The policy will stand. Govt made that policy. Folks signed up to work for a Govt agency will vaccinate or be cast off. ( unless of a reason)

  • serfserf Member Posts: 9,225 ✭✭✭✭

    Heck, soon we all will be government subjects with no rights whatsoever. I went to municipal court here in Houston, Texas, and it was demanded That I wear a face mask and had to take off my shoes and stand before a face recognition monitor to pass through the security check out system. They called it a temp check! What a lie that was!

    The State law be dammed by Democrats BLM Guards, and I think it's going to get worst before it gets better.Folks!

    serf

  • hillbillehillbille Member Posts: 13,151 ✭✭✭✭

    thats odd, I just went to circiut court here in WVa, over a custody issue, had to pass through a metal detector but that was it, no mask on myself or any of those in court, or even in the hallways......

  • serfserf Member Posts: 9,225 ✭✭✭✭

    Do you live in a radicalized minority city? That does not obey state laws ? Houston,Texas resides in a Blue county just like Austin, Texas. The whole state of Texas will be blue as soon as the invading progressive from California gets to settle in. Just watch.

    It's called a Liberal progressive Democracy with a Marxist takeover, and they have the votes with the giveaway welfare for all mottos for the poor and downtrodden minorities. Most whites do not qualify for any of it but get rising crime rates with higher taxes and much more debt being created for prosperity for all!

    Biden say it's ZERO costs for it all ! What a joke the republic has become.

    serf

  • Mr. PerfectMr. Perfect Member, Moderator Posts: 63,836 ******

    Unlawful orders are not to be followed.

    Some will die in hot pursuit
    And fiery auto crashes
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    While sifting through my ashes
    Some will fall in love with life
    And drink it from a fountain
    That is pouring like an avalanche
    Coming down the mountain
  • select-fireselect-fire Member Posts: 69,482 ✭✭✭✭

    Court Martial . The Govt. orders are the law . LMAO

  • select-fireselect-fire Member Posts: 69,482 ✭✭✭✭

    Folks working for the Govt and not obeying the Govt will be cast aside... just as it should be.. or they can leave on their own.

  • BobJudyBobJudy Member Posts: 5,417 ✭✭✭✭

    I have already stated that I am not in favor of civilian mandates but I do not see how this would be an unlawful order for a military person. The military already has mandates in place for 17 other vaccines;

    I seem to recall several ships being quarantined last year due to Covid outbreaks and if the vaccine can lesson the impact of those outbreaks and keep the ship from losing its viability as an active military asset, that's a good thing. With the Chinese saber rattling about Taiwan those ships may be needed there instead of tied up at a pier with an incapacitated crew. Bob

  • Mr. PerfectMr. Perfect Member, Moderator Posts: 63,836 ******

    I don't see how a mandate is unlawful for the military either.

    Some will die in hot pursuit
    And fiery auto crashes
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    While sifting through my ashes
    Some will fall in love with life
    And drink it from a fountain
    That is pouring like an avalanche
    Coming down the mountain
  • select-fireselect-fire Member Posts: 69,482 ✭✭✭✭

    Seems the thread is complete.... Not unlawful

  • Don McManusDon McManus Member Posts: 23,138 ✭✭✭✭

    The only reason it is not unlawful is that the FDA approval was rushed with less than 2 years of data. Data insufficient to determine long term problems.

    The tyranny of good intentions will hopefully not bite us in the *.

    Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.

    Brad Steele
  • SCOUT5SCOUT5 Member Posts: 16,195 ✭✭✭✭

    Everything legal isn't right and everything illegal isn't wrong. Legal vs illegal and right versus wrong are two different subject matters that happen to overlap in application.

  • serfserf Member Posts: 9,225 ✭✭✭✭

    Ft. Detrick is lawful, while Wuhan Lab is not? Is all about whose side your own. Just another Pandora's Box, you think? Who and which is the culprit?

    serf


  • select-fireselect-fire Member Posts: 69,482 ✭✭✭✭

    Fact is proving China made a biological weapon. Fact is.. Govt passed the Navy Law. That is proven

  • MrMag00MrMag00 Member Posts: 521 ✭✭✭

    There are a couple issues at play. The first is changing the rules after you sign your life over to them. The second and most important is that the covid shot is not a vaccine.  It is an experimental biological agent/weapon and is 100% against the Nuremberg code.

    Just visit cigarettes and LSD to start with, and we can toss in Agent Orange just for controversy.

    It is sad to watch our GI's violate their sworn duty.

    "I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."  

    All that is left is to determine if the mandate is constitutional.   Hint, it is not. 

  • BobJudyBobJudy Member Posts: 5,417 ✭✭✭✭

    The uniform code of military justice is unfortunately on the side of the president;

    Mandates suck but the military is governed by a different set of rules than the civilian population. If a service person can't get a religious exemption and refuses the vaccine he will likely face at least a dishonorable discharge. Bob

  • select-fireselect-fire Member Posts: 69,482 ✭✭✭✭

    Bob I am sure glad you posted that .. Some just don't understand

  • Don McManusDon McManus Member Posts: 23,138 ✭✭✭✭

    Yes, the UCMJ is different than civilian law, but there remain legitimate reasons to refuse the current experimental treatments. To correct you, Bob, and from the link in the OP, at least the Navy department is pursuing honorable separation for personnel would are to be relieved. On hopes the tyrants do not intercede with this reasonable approach to make a further political point.

    The fact remains, however, that this is still a continuation of the purge of diversity of thought in the DOD.

    Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.

    Brad Steele
  • BobJudyBobJudy Member Posts: 5,417 ✭✭✭✭

    Don, I did see that the Navy, for the time being, is going to do the right thing concerning vaccine discharges. Unfortunately they have a good chance of being overruled by their commander in chief or his lackey the sec. of defense.

    I am somewhat torn about this military mandate. For civilians I am definitely against mandates but for a member of the military to defy a lawful order is another thing. If they can refuse this order without penalty does it set a precedent for refusing other orders in the future? Will service men and women be able to refuse orders to fight anyone in their ethnic group like asians, muslims, African Americans? I know that is an apples to oranges comparison but bending to the will of the average service member can be a slippery slope. Bob

  • pingjockeypingjockey Member Posts: 1,872 ✭✭✭✭

    The Soviet Union was very good at establishing units of one ethnicity and stationing them in different areas away from "their people". Seemed to work quite well.

  • serfserf Member Posts: 9,225 ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2021

    Don't be fooled the only reason there is not a mandate for private citizens because they can vote and protest but if you're under an employer with work requirements then there go your rights anyway!

    Back in the day when you could board a plane without Body scans, face scans with Bio metrics data is long gone and U.S. citizens have no rights until the government sanction them one way or another. The 1st & 2nd amendment rights are next and The 4th amendment is already gone with The NSA/CIA with FISA courts because it's all for your safety and security Folks!

    The equity clause they are pushing now should finish off any and all Freedoms for capitalism, under The United Nations mandates and The Central Banks with politicians are all for it! Next is socialism with a cashless society!

    serf

  • Don McManusDon McManus Member Posts: 23,138 ✭✭✭✭

    Refusing and questioning orders are two different things, Bob.

    A couple of points. We know the Biden believes those not getting vaccinated are Trump supporters. We know that early this year, he instigated a program to identify Trump supports under the guise of white supremacy following the 6 January mostly peaceful protest.

    With this in mind, it is not a big stretch to consider whether these mandates are the left's attempt to purge people who are not easily manipulated into doing questionable things. Purging independent thought in the lower ranks leads to mindless order takers in the upper ranks in a very short time.

    Mindless order takers in the upper ranks leads to a military command structure that can be convinced to engage in stupid and arguably criminal wars such as the invasion of Iraq in 2003, and to a lessor extent the invasion of Afghanistan in 2001.

    A civilian controlled military is a good thing, but if structures are put into place to create a military that does not provide honest feedback, and generals who follow stupid orders without protesting and/or resigning, we are left with the dictatorial military machine that was contemplated by our Founders in their placing of a 2 year appropriation limit on the Army.

    Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.

    Brad Steele
  • BobJudyBobJudy Member Posts: 5,417 ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2021

    Don I agree with the points you have made but If a General or Admiral protests or questions his or her orders to vigorously then they will be bypassed and their career will be basically over no matter how competent they may be. If they resign in protest then they will surely be replaced by someone whose political beliefs mirrors or at least bends to those in civilian office. We should have a civilian controlled military but it seems that in todays world politics trumps responsible leadership. I don't have the answer to this and that is why I said my opinion was torn by the ramifications of the original topic. Bob

  • Don McManusDon McManus Member Posts: 23,138 ✭✭✭✭

    One of the first things Stalin did, Bob was to purge the military of those he thought would not be in line with his desires. It is what tyrants do.

    If you think for a minute that 90% of Flag officers in today's military, particularly those who rise to the top, are not politicians already, you would be incorrect. A look at the behavior of Austin and Milley over the past few months bear this out.

    Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.

    Brad Steele
  • Mr. PerfectMr. Perfect Member, Moderator Posts: 63,836 ******

    The question still remains as to whether the order is lawful. One of the noted reasons for unconstitutionality is whether the order was done under emergency powers. Where is the current emergency? This has been the longest emergency in the history of the world and not many are talking about that.

    Some will die in hot pursuit
    And fiery auto crashes
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    While sifting through my ashes
    Some will fall in love with life
    And drink it from a fountain
    That is pouring like an avalanche
    Coming down the mountain
  • BobJudyBobJudy Member Posts: 5,417 ✭✭✭✭

    I agree but still don't know the answer for insulating the military from political whims. Recently Lt. Colonel Scheller learned that you couldn't protest about the Afghanistan debacle without paying a price. He got off with only forfeiting a months pay but his career and chances for advancement are effectively over. I am afraid that others will pay a similar price if they speak out against the the vaccine mandate. If the military mandate was unlawful then some would speak up but that is not the case and most if not all will keep their misgivings private to preserve their careers. Bob

  • Don McManusDon McManus Member Posts: 23,138 ✭✭✭✭

    Since the FDA was forced to rush the full approval of the MRNA experiment, Bob, the order is lawful.

    It is, however, unnecessary and stupid.

    Perhaps if they ordered only the fat sailors to get the treatment, it would be less stupid, but that would no doubt be viewed as discriminatory against some minority or sex.

    Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.

    Brad Steele
  • serfserf Member Posts: 9,225 ✭✭✭✭

    They are going to do much more than just purge the Arm Forces of Trump supporters. In the end, you must comply with all orders, unlawful or not. The debacle on Jan 6th was a set-up to begin with.The speaker of the house would not allow reinforcing any police actions or deploy the National guard to guard The Halls of Congress period!

    serf

    https://www.worldtribune.com/video-shows-u-s-capitol-police-giving-jan-6-protesters-ok-to-demonstrate-inside-building

    A newly obtained video shows United States Capitol Police officers instructing several Jan. 6 protesters inside the Capitol about how to peacefully demonstrate there. The group included Jacob Chansley, the so-called “Q shaman” who has been in jail awaiting trial since January.

  • Mr. PerfectMr. Perfect Member, Moderator Posts: 63,836 ******
    edited October 2021

    Fortunately, it's super easy to replace folks like naval aviators with a decade of experience. What could possibly go wrong?

    Some will die in hot pursuit
    And fiery auto crashes
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    While sifting through my ashes
    Some will fall in love with life
    And drink it from a fountain
    That is pouring like an avalanche
    Coming down the mountain
  • MrMag00MrMag00 Member Posts: 521 ✭✭✭

    That's not true, that is politics.  The oath we took is what is true.  Did you read and understand the oath? 

  • BobJudyBobJudy Member Posts: 5,417 ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2021

    " Refusal to carry out a lawful order would likely violate Article 92 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (“UCMJ”), Failure to Obey Order or Regulation. Punishment could include a dishonorable or bad-conduct discharge, two years confinement, and forfeiture of all pay and allowances. "


    I understand where you are coming from and I also don't like mandates but in this case what I like is irrelevant. The above quote from the article the I posted is directly linked to the oath of enlistment. The president gives a lawful order to the military and under the guidance of the UCMJ the orders are sworn to be carried out.

    If it could be determined that it was an unlawful order then other options are available, but the vaccine order has not been determined unlawful. Bob


    Edit to add a judge has just issued a temporary injunction regarding religious exemptions;


  • select-fireselect-fire Member Posts: 69,482 ✭✭✭✭
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