Military Question.
Oakie
Member Posts: 40,510 ✭✭✭✭
What is your opinion. On this date, in 1977, Jimmy Carter, Pardoned all the draft dodgers from the Vietnam war. Some men were scared and some didn't feel right about the war. I myself, never served in the military. I went from HS, to being married in two weeks, and then on to college.
If I was drafted, I know I would have went and enlisted in the Marine Corp, or Navy right away. I think the draft ended the year I graduated HS, 1981. Not sure.
Having said this, I'm not sure how I personally feel about the draft dodgers. I don't consider them cowards, Just men with a fear of dying for something they didn't believe in, or strong religious beliefs. Some of you were drafted or enlisted, and served our country proudly. Would you stand up for your friend, neighbor, or family member, that refused to serve on these basis???? Do you feel that you served, to protect their rights as Americans????
God bless you all and please don't let this become an argument. Thank you all for your HONEST answer. Oakie
Comments
I have more respect for my former enemies than for those who refused to serve their country. But their own conscience is punishment enough.
I respect those like Cassius Clay who stood for their convictions. Those who fled or hid behind phony medical or school deferments get none.
That said, I think Carter’s pardon was the right thing to do. At the time, I was going into the USN, and it did not sit right, but the kinder and gentler me of today is more forgiving.
Brad Steele
I think the draft ended about 9 years earlier, Nixon was president, "police action" in Vietnam ended. I think. My draft number was 13 and class 1-A. All but had my bags packed.
Yes to first question, didn't serve so I can't answer second question for those that did.
Although they did not fight we are supposed to be a county of free choice.
Forgive and forget should be our main goal in life, not hate and division like what is promoted today
Same here, butchdog. My number was 28. I hated to see the mail man coming.
Didn't serve as I was 4f . Deaf men don't do well in the jungle. Knew folks on both sides. Like all of us ..... flawed human beings . I suspect the dodgers punish theirselves.
Comment rescinded. On second thought, I think I agree with Warbirds (comment below). Some of y’all were there. We’ll leave it to you to judge.
I think this is one of those events that really has to be judged by the generation that lived it.
I didn’t live it.
I had no use for them in `1971 and still don't. I was injured in a training accident that year and declared unfit for service which ended my military commitments.
I served two tours in VN, '69 & '70. The reception I got upon return was a lot less welcoming than those returning from Canada. That's all I have to say about that.
I was drafted in November 1963 but was sitting at home with a broken foot (when JFK was shot) so was not inducted until March '64. Had mixed feelings, at the time, about those who refused military service and was not personally acquainted with anyone who did so. However, my ultimate choice was to forgive and forget. This does not come naturally to humans, it comes from scriptural teaching, which I trust and believe in very deeply: if I do not forgive others for their transgressions, the Creator will not forgive me of mine.
Grandad served in WWI, Dad in WWII so felt it was my turn. Got ROTC commission fall of '72, my class of new Signal Corps lieutenants was the first not to be sent to Vietnam. I served three years active duty, then in the Army Reserve until I retired.
I once told a captain who received a Silver Star for continuing to lead his platoon after being badly wounded in an ambush that I wondered how I would have handled combat. His reply was, "It's not worth knowing."
The more I learn about the reasons and excuses for the decisions made at "Echelons above reality" the more I direct my anger at the politicians and Generals behind those decisions. It is not for me to judge those who chose another path. Our lives are shaped by choices made and we all must live with the results.
Wild Turkey: Everybody wonders how they'd react in actual combat. And everybody reacts differently. In my case, the first few times were terrifying. The next dozen or three were scary. And then I quit counting after half a million rounds fired at me and it became just another day at work. If I had ever been wounded, it probably would have been different, I grant you.
It also would have been different if I had been in ground combat. Flying is a separate environment.
I volunteered to serve just a month before Jimmy was elected and served my 4 years under him... I considered him the worst president and CIC ever until more recent Presidents we have/had... Draft dodgers were far and few between my circle of friends at the time so didn't really think much of them either way, but as others have said they have had to live with their choices, I made mine.
I was drafted in November 1969. I had started a good job that I liked on the railroad, and I had a fiancée at the time. No I didn’t really want to go, but I was raised up to understand that there are a lot of thing in life you may not want to do, but there are obligations in life that you are obligated to do. It would be nice if we could pick and choose are obligations and duties in life, but we can’t sometimes.
This is the problem with this country today, people are taught to feel that they are only obligated to them self.
They should not have been forgiven. That said I am not a big proponent of the draft, at least not in the combat arms.
I served 25 years in the all volunteer army and fought in every conflict we had between 1982 and 2007 except Desert Storm. I would not really have wanted to be around other combat soldiers who didn't want to be there with me. I was fortunate enough to serve 99% of my time in units who select their soldiers so I was lucky.
That said not many know that 2/3's of the soldiers who fought in VN were volunteers and 70% of those killed were volunteers too, whereas the numbers are the opposite in WW2. Over 2/3's of the soldiers who fought in WW2 were drafted. I have known several guys who were VN vets that come from all over the world to fight the commies in VN and stayed in the military.
Personally I feel that some type of "draft"/mandatory obligation of say 2 years would not be a bad thing in this country. It would not have to be a military style unit but just about anything that would get kids off their butts and do some old fashioned work for their country/ state/ community.
I was 18 when the draft ended and didn't get a #. Prior to that I was ready to enlist. I'll leave the choice to forgive, up to those who served.
Oakie, About 17 years ago someone came in my office at work and stole my wallet out of my briefcase. Among the documents in my wallet was my draft card that was missing when they found my wallet in a creek about two months later. Next to my marriage certificate it was the most important document in my life, even more than my pistol permit and DD-214. It was a constant reminder that i elected to serve three years and follow in Grandpa's, Dad's, Uncle's footsteps. (all Army)
On 11/23/1967 my childhood fishing buddy and first cousin Calvin was KIA. He was a good red headed country boy from Mineral, Virginia. Once a year I try to visit his marker next to Grandpa's. The hurt in my heart never goes away.
I never go out of my way to punish those who evaded the draft but I am sorry I can't forgive them.----------------------------Ray
Forgive them ? NO!!
It's hard to forgive the dodgers when you've personally been in the fight, loaded wounded & lifeless bodies of friends onto e-vac choppers, I was drafted, yep, I dreaded to go but it was my duty as an American and the time to suck it up. As Merle Haggard sang, "when you're running down my country you're walking on the fight'en side of me". So, no forgiveness to the dodgers or Carter from me, just forget about them, it's their problem to deal with.
"Never do wrong to make a friend----or to keep one".....Robert E. Lee
For every man that bailed, someone else had to step up and fill the spot. Maybe that man got short changed. When I came home from overseas, a friend who lit out for Canada, asked me to send my newly amended draft card so he could come home to visit. I don't know how my draft card was supposed to help him. I declined...
In 1980 when they dedicated the new Vietnam Memorial in Washington D.C. The State University of New York at Albany put on a support group for men who evaded military service. The would sit in a grove of trees...shirtless....banging on drums.
This was supposed to be a male bonding ritual to get back their missing MOJO. This would draw about thirty men each time they did it, but there would be a hundred or more people there to watch them.
The man group called the police to make the people go away, they said they were feeling intimidated.. I guess the MOJO and drumming didn't work...😮
I agree with the comments about the dodgers getting pardoned I cannot forgive them nor do I go out of my way to comfort them.
I joined when I was 17 because I did not want to be drafted. Lucky I did when I turned 18 my draft number was 23 so I would have been drafted.
I volunteered to go to Vietnam because all of the others kids I knew were there.
I got very lucky I was two weeks away from shipping out to Vietnam and because I had a job they were having a hard time filling in the Navy I got sent to Europe because someone left the Navy and they needed to replace them because of NATO requirements.
After leaving activity duty I stayed in the Reserves but Carter screwed things up so bad I got out after 10 years.
I can’t forgive the dodgers because while they were in college or was working to advance their careers I was on activity duty. That meant I started my career much later so I had to work harder and longer to make up for the late start to my career.
I don’t remember having a draft card, I know I registered when I turned 18. Enlisted in the AF in 61 Vietnam 66/67, as for the dodgers they should never have been pardoned, we were all afraid at times, but we lived with it, and I think it made us better people.
About 2002, a DOD man came to the factory where I worked. He was following up on a former co-worker who had applied for a job that required a security clearance and want to talk to me.
When I went to meet him, I said " If this is about my draft card, that thing disintegrated in my wallet years ago."
He didn't think that was funny.
Those who thought their personal opinions - and personal development, personal preferences and/or personal well being were more important than their responsibilities to the nation simply should not be allowed to live here.
For most, avoiding military service was not a matter of conscience about the war. It was a matter of personal interest, with the war providing an excuse.
Carter's pardon was the first major step for society in 'personal opinion' being justification for aberrant and illegal behavior. The same concept has been extended to include many types of anti social behavior today - including riots, theft, mayhem. It was a precursor to the flawed thinking which interprets such behavior as a demonstration of "freedom".
And, OBTW, IMNSHO, those who avoided the draft thru personal connections (Clinton), or spurious medical reasons (Trump, Biden) should not be in positions to govern the nation they were unwilling to personally defend.
Thank you everyone for your opinions and sacrifices. I didn't mean to stir up any bad memories for some of you, I was just curious on your thoughts about this subject.
I guess I kind of answered my own question, when I stated," Do you think you served to protect their rights as Americans." They fled to Canada to avoid the draft, so they are not Americans in my opinion. God Bless the American soldiers. Oakie
Any thoughts on Trump avoiding Vietnam and the draft - 5 times?
My father was a conscientious objector, but was relieved of his obligation during Vietnam because he was getting his master's degree anyway. I have talked with him about it several times and have had a hard time reconciling his thoughts on it. He says he could never have taken a life, just couldn't do it. I struggle with this. His younger brother served for a short time in the army but was discharged when he was diagnosed with diabetes.
I registered with the selective service when I was 18 and would have happily served, if I had been called up. That was when we had just gone to war in the gulf, so it was a possibility I was going to be, at least to my 18 year old mind. But I enrolled in college and no draft ever came up.
Looking back on my life, I really would have benefited by serving in one of our armed forces.
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
Both my Dad and Uncle were in the post Korean War / pre-Vietnam Army. Both were too old for the draft. A family friend that taught me to hunt and shoot was a conscientious objector (religious beliefs) that went to Vietnam as an unarmed Navy Medic supporting the Marines.
I went into the Army Reserves after graduating High School in 1993. I did 6 years active Reserves + 2 inactive as a mechanic, and got out. The Army gave me a good kick the *, that helped me get through college. Having that experience was helpful working as a contractor in Iraq at the end of the war and in Africa. E4 for life!
After serious thought and rethought I feel I need to clarify my response . I knew lots of folks who really didn't want to go but did so anyway . It was part of their responsibilities as a citizen . I respect and value them for this sacrifice.
One of my high school history teachers skipped out to Canada to avoid the draft. Not a popular move in a city that was/ is home to a major air force base . Didnt think it was the thing to do then and still don't.
A classs mates father, a major in the air force was shot down and was a POW for about 6 years.
If those who have served since the Declaration Of Independence was declared had cut and ran, We would all be speaking German, Japanese, Russian. That is, if we were allowed to live under their tyranny. Pastor Martin Neimoller said it best, look him up. The Sissies made their choice and I made mine. They have to live with theirs, they know what they did. No, I do not forgive them and neither do my brothers who didn't come home.
BTW, I DO BELIEVE ON MY MOTHERS GRAVE MANY P.O.W.'S WERE/ARE BEING HELD IN CAPTIVITY. JUST LIKE THE CHINESE DID AFTER THE KOREAN CONFLICT.
With all due respect, elubsme, the last war we fought where there was a real threat of invasion of the Continental US and the overthrow of our government was the war of 1812.
The remaining wars of the 19th century and all wars of the 20th and 21st century were engaged for political or economic reasons.
Neither Germany, Japan, nor the Soviet Union ever had the capability of taking over the US. Yes, the Soviets could have destroyed much of the US, but once the destruction occurred, we still would never have been occupied.
Do not get me wrong. I have nothing but respect for those who sacrificed life and limb in our armed forces in wars to protect the political and/or economic interests of the United States. I also recognize that many or most of these wars, while they protected our way of life, did not have much to do with protecting our freedom.
Brad Steele
The Army of Northern Agression invaded Virginia in 1861. They had to draft immigrants to man their army.
I suppose we'd have to draft immigrants to man our army, today.
Not Continental USA but believe Alaska Highway was joint venture with Canadians because real fear the Japs would invade USA. They did knock on the door in Aleutians.----------------Ray
There were many possibilities in the first World War and WW-II. Without our help and support Germany would have conquered Europe and eventually became strong enough to attack and take over the U.S. If not, Hitler and the Japanese Empire surely would have done so in the second world war after they had the rest of the world under their control. I do agree with you that political and economical gain had a lot to do with it. Even more so today. I fear for our country's future more than ever today. Ed
Even if Germany had been successful in their European campaign, occupation of the US was not only not on their agenda, it was not in the realm of possibility.
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
Was not Germany very close to developing the Atomic bomb( Heavy water) and a jet bomber to deliver it? At the Point, Westy loaned me to Werner Von Braun (Redstone Arsenal) for a day. Took him to the Ordinance Lab to lecture cadets. We grabbed a lot of those brilliant minds after the war. Given a little more time, who knows what might have happened.--------------------------Ray
That's exactly why we should never fight to a stalemate, if we're going to fight then lets kick *. In a stalemate the weaker actually is the winner.
"Never do wrong to make a friend----or to keep one".....Robert E. Lee
There was a TV show in 1975 about a hippie/musician, his step-daughter, his girlfriend and his hippie friends, all of whom were living in Canada. I don't recall anyone in the show saying so specifically, but I had the impression that these characters were in Canada to avoid the draft.
The "brains" behind the Iraq War, Dick Cheney, could have gone to 'Nam. He got five deferments. Cheney never served in the military.
And the man he talked in to starting up the illegal Iraq War, George Bush, flew fighter jets during the Vietnam War. George flew over Mobile Alabama, he was in the Air Force Reserve. George never crossed the Pacific during the war, but he looked good in the uniform. Rich kids got in to the Army Reserve, or Air Force Reserve, knowing they would not be sent to the war.
George Bush the First's VP Dan Quayle was in the Army Reserve in Indiana during the Vietnam War.
lf Jimmy Cracker can pardon draft dodgers, Joe Biden can pardon Todd & Julie Chrisley😜