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It certainly looks like we are on the brink of war.

Mr. PerfectMr. Perfect Member, Moderator Posts: 64,745 ******
edited January 27 in Politics

I know the current administration is hell bent on destroying this nation from within, but I hadn't quite calculated that they would think the destruction is going so slowly that they need to get us entangled in a war with a nuclear power.

We just authorized sending tanks to Ukraine.

There is no way Russia sees this move as anything but an act of war (they're already retaliating in Ukraine). I'm sure in their mind, financing and small arms aid up to this point was borderline. And now Ukraine is renewing their ask for air support as well. I have few doubts we will provide it. Lots of articles here, all supporting these thoughts. Read through them as you have time. It does not look promising.



Some will die in hot pursuit
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
«13

Comments

  • MobuckMobuck Member Posts: 13,120 ✭✭✭✭

    The way I heard it, we 'committed' to send tanks to Ukraine. Gotta build them first.

    IF (and that's the big IF) we were willing to get into a war, we'd send air power to simply DEVASTATE Russian armor. We have that capability(remember the Iraqi's trying to escape Kuwait?) to completely overwhelm anything the Russians have in the field TOMORROW but we're offering Abrams tanks to be delivered in a year or two.

  • Mr. PerfectMr. Perfect Member, Moderator Posts: 64,745 ******

    The delivery timeline is a bit uncertain. It may be a matter of a few months or could be a couple years. They are relying on industry to supply them and there's a potential backlog in the way. My guess is the skids will get greased and they will have tanks by year's end.

    Some will die in hot pursuit
    And fiery auto crashes
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    While sifting through my ashes
    Some will fall in love with life
    And drink it from a fountain
    That is pouring like an avalanche
    Coming down the mountain
  • mac10mac10 Member Posts: 2,267 ✭✭✭✭

    and they want our guns too

  • 62vld204262vld2042 Member Posts: 499 ✭✭✭✭

    I would think they would NOT be getting the current M1A tank.........as it's design/components are highly classified. Perhaps some older mothballed tanks.

    Just a thought/$0.02......

  • MobuckMobuck Member Posts: 13,120 ✭✭✭✭

    '.as it's design/components are highly classified. Perhaps some older mothballed tanks.'

    News report this evening said 'new production' so it's possible the classified goodies could be deleted.

  • Floyd621Floyd621 Member Posts: 1,915 ✭✭✭✭

    World War 3 Incoming..be ready...

  • KenK/84BravoKenK/84Bravo Member Posts: 10,008 ✭✭✭✭

    Certainly edging closer.

    I believe the Abrahms Tanks were only offered up, due to the German demand that they would only supply their Leopard II tanks, IF we supplied the Abrahms. NATO was at an impasse.

    Putin has proven himself to be unstable, getting bad advice from those around him.

    Would not take too much, a mistake by either side, to start the ball rolling.

    Extreme NE TN/W NC ya'll. 😁

  • Sam06Sam06 Member Posts: 21,212 ✭✭✭✭

    FYI we have sent the M1 to several country's, not many know this but Egypt has more M1's than the USMC did. Iraq has over 300 as do the Saudis.

    RLTW

  • waltermoewaltermoe Member Posts: 1,046 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 28

    From what I have read and watched on a documentary a while back, the German Leopard 2 is the top rated tank in the world right now. I also believe it is diesel powered which gives it a longer range than the M1A Abrams tank.

  • wifetrainedwifetrained Member Posts: 1,200 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 28

    WW3 is already here. Right now, we're fighting a proxy war but it's slowly expanding with each batch of military aid. And Ukraine won't get the tanks for a while because they have to be new built with different armor. Their tanks can't have the depleted uranium armor mesh due to federal laws regarding spent fissile material. Their tanks, like other export customers, will have the tungsten composite armor. And besides there's only one tank plant in the US, in Lima Ohio so they can only move so fast. With a reported build rate of 3 tanks a week, could take a while. If it wasn't for the armor issue, they could simply pull tanks from storage where, reportedly, 3700 reside.

    Make no mistake here, they have already stated that the end goal is regime change in Moscow. It's been stated repeatedly by numerous officials up to president deadhead. Several foreign countries have also stated this as well so I don't see how a full-blown conflict can be avoided. Someone is going to get stupid and eventually push one button too many.

  • MPistoneMPistone Member Posts: 104 ✭✭✭

    How is sending U.S. tanks and other resources to the Ukraine now, any different than any other time that we have fought a proxy war?

    That door you just kicked in was locked for your protection - not mine.

  • wifetrainedwifetrained Member Posts: 1,200 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 28

    There is no real difference, I think the stakes are much higher now. Mission creep is in play, the weapons systems being supplied are growing both in terms of sophistication and lethality, officials from NATO have stated its a war between the alliance and Russia which has the largest nuclear weapons arsenal on the planet. They have also overtly stated that regime change is the goal. The consequences of a misstep could be severe.

  • DerBarbarianDerBarbarian Member Posts: 287 ✭✭
  • wifetrainedwifetrained Member Posts: 1,200 ✭✭✭✭

    One really has to wonder what's going on. The number stated doesn't make a lot of sense from a tactical standpoint.

  • Floyd621Floyd621 Member Posts: 1,915 ✭✭✭✭

    I read a few days ago that the Dutch are going after Zelensky.. they are trying to figure out how he is worth 850 million dollars...

  • toad67toad67 Member Posts: 12,221 ✭✭✭✭
  • fayettefattsfayettefatts Member Posts: 24

    So what will the U.S. do if Russia wins this war???

  • MPistoneMPistone Member Posts: 104 ✭✭✭

    Nothing I think. America, like Europe, believe that it is in their nation's interest to support Ukraine. That "interest" is greater for Russia (the Soviet Union) not only as Kyiv offers strategic military value due to it's location, but with the world watching a Russian win would damage the United State's credibility (leadership and strength) in the eyes of Europe and send a strong signal to China's President Xi Jinping that America is week and an alliance with Russia would strengthen both countries.

    China and Russia both know that America is not week, but we have no leadership (backbone) with the current administration. Should Putin gain victory in the Ukraine while Biden is in office - we'll lose, on every front. Putin is not an idiot and Russia will likely step up it's aggression to secure a win before 2024 to avoid facing a potentially strong Republican.

    That door you just kicked in was locked for your protection - not mine.

  • wifetrainedwifetrained Member Posts: 1,200 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 30

    The chairman of NATO's military committee announced that the alliance is ready for a direct confrontation with Russia. That's odd, considering the fact that most of the countries within the alliance have failed for years to pony up the minimum agreed amount for defense.

    The future is looking ominous.

  • Floyd621Floyd621 Member Posts: 1,915 ✭✭✭✭

    Like I said..if Putin is the good guy in all of this... people's heads will explode..

  • wifetrainedwifetrained Member Posts: 1,200 ✭✭✭✭

    The broader question is just how long this is going to drag out. The current administration says it's in for as long as it takes no matter the cost. Nato members have made the same claim.

  • Mr. PerfectMr. Perfect Member, Moderator Posts: 64,745 ******

    It's not different than some of them, but it is a bit different this time because of the players involved. Usually, lately anyway, the US stays out of conflicts that would lure Russia in.

    Some will die in hot pursuit
    And fiery auto crashes
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    While sifting through my ashes
    Some will fall in love with life
    And drink it from a fountain
    That is pouring like an avalanche
    Coming down the mountain
  • chris8X57chris8X57 Member Posts: 1,112 ✭✭✭✭

    During the Korean conflict, politically called a 'police action', American pilots engaging Mig-15s knew that they were actually fighting Soviet pilots. Both sides had to observe certain rules of engagement and utmost secrecy to prevent the conflict into escalating into a world war.

    In Ukraine, NATO nations sending weapons (Britain sending Challenger Tanks, Germany sending Leopards, and the US sending Abrams, and Denmark sending F-16s) have to be especially careful that their 'military advisors' do not become combatants. This could lead to an outright declaration of war against the offending country.

    With the boatloads of money going to Zelensky, I think he should be buying his own equipment.

  • Mr. PerfectMr. Perfect Member, Moderator Posts: 64,745 ******

    Are we going to take him at his word?

    Some will die in hot pursuit
    And fiery auto crashes
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    While sifting through my ashes
    Some will fall in love with life
    And drink it from a fountain
    That is pouring like an avalanche
    Coming down the mountain
  • wifetrainedwifetrained Member Posts: 1,200 ✭✭✭✭

    Poland just announced that it is willing to send F-16 fighter planes to Ukraine. See how this is slowly escalating just as it is with the mission creep. We went from territorial expulsion to regime change, we went from Stingers to hawks and now to Patriots, we went from Humvee's to Bradley's and now to Abrams, Leopards, Challengers, Marder's and possible French LeClerc's.

    Germany deployed a Patriot battery on Nato soil to defend Nato airspace bordering on Ukraine. Is Germany really ready to possibly initiate a shootdown of Russian aircraft from Nato territory? The numbers stated on tanks to be supplied don't make any sense from either a tactical or strategic point. The numbers are small, and the equipment is arriving in drips and drabs mostly from existing stockpiles and not from new production. Is this a war of attrition? If so, we are underestimating the Russians legendary disregard about casualties. If they did care this conflict would have been over 6 months ago and they would have withdrawn back to pre-war boundaries, maybe even giving up Crimea back to Ukraine in the process. Who knows.

    As Mr. Perfect points out, the players this time around are different and four of the players have nuclear weapons, one of which has the largest arsenal on the planet. Any screwups could have massive ramifications. What strikes me odd is that nothing taking place to date has made any sense from a military point of view. The Russians invaded Ukraine with a pitifully small force deployed on a front hundreds of miles long to achieve the goals initially stated. The leadership, planning and logistics were clearly lacking and even some of their equipment wasn't up to snuff. Ukraine did a masterful job of slowing down and eventually halting the advance but ultimately would have been defeated if not for the massive influx of money and material. But only enough to regain some territory and not enough to inflict a signal defeat on the Russians that would compel a withdrawal and cessation of hostilities. So, again I ask what's the point of the exercise? What's the end goal. And just how did Zelensky amass a fortune of $850 million bucks since 2019 when he was elected? And the comparison of Zelensky to Winston Churchill is laughable to say the least.

  • 4205raymond4205raymond Member Posts: 2,615 ✭✭✭✭

    Nephew is CSM at Bragg. He migrated from 5th SF Group and trains SF Troops. Last picture, no more room on his blues for ribbons. There are times when he disappears from the face of the earth. Most would be surprised at what goes on behind the scenes. We worry about him. -----------------------------Ray

  • Floyd621Floyd621 Member Posts: 1,915 ✭✭✭✭

    China...North Korea and Iran are just waiting in the wings... Taiwan.. South Korea and Israel are about to be Hammered... they have waited years for this...But hey..no more mean tweets....

  • Don McManusDon McManus Member Posts: 23,289 ✭✭✭✭

    This is the flip side of the Korean and Vietnam conflicts other than in those two we were technically on the defense as compared to Russia being on the offense in Ukraine.

    The Soviets sent modern weaponry in the these wars to test against a first world opponent and we are doing the same for Ukraine.

    The question is one of personality. Putin seems to believe his legacy includes rebuilding at least some of what was The Soviet Union. He knows, especially considering the performance of his military in Ukraine, that direct conflict with the Western Allies will end this quest. It then becomes a question of stability and the willingness of the Russian military to follow Putin to oblivion.

    Putin remains a wild card. A military revolt and/or coup would be very much in play.

    Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.

    Brad Steele
  • Mr. PerfectMr. Perfect Member, Moderator Posts: 64,745 ******

    Don, I don't know that many Russian leaders disagree with Putin on this. Most of them want their kingdom back. They may disagree with the method, but I doubt they disagree with the goal.

    Some will die in hot pursuit
    And fiery auto crashes
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    While sifting through my ashes
    Some will fall in love with life
    And drink it from a fountain
    That is pouring like an avalanche
    Coming down the mountain
  • wifetrainedwifetrained Member Posts: 1,200 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1

    Don, normally I agree with your thoughts and analysis, but I feel this go around is much different and much more dangerous.

  • Don McManusDon McManus Member Posts: 23,289 ✭✭✭✭

    I believe you folks are correct regarding the Russian leaders. This is why I referenced a military revolt/coup. While it is very possible Putin has sufficient numbers of loyalists in the upper echelons of the military, there are any numbers of rumors where military leadership is not liking the path Putin is taking.

    A few quick and decisive victories in Ukraine may bring all into the fold. A few quick and decisive setbacks may do the opposite.

    We need to remember that Biden basically green-lighted a limited incursion into Ukraine. Putin fell for it, perhaps thinking Biden actually knew what he was saying. There can be no such confusion regarding an expansion of the war outside of Ukraine, regardless of what weaponry we supply.

    Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.

    Brad Steele
  • Mr. PerfectMr. Perfect Member, Moderator Posts: 64,745 ******

    Don, my point is the leaders would put it down. Most likely proactively.

    Some will die in hot pursuit
    And fiery auto crashes
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    While sifting through my ashes
    Some will fall in love with life
    And drink it from a fountain
    That is pouring like an avalanche
    Coming down the mountain
  • bpostbpost Member Posts: 32,405 ✭✭✭✭

    I would be a lot more comfortable if Europe stepped up to defend Ukraine against the immoral invasion by Putin. They can send their blood and treasure to help their neighbor. There should be a lot more Russian citizens against this invasion but they do not know the truth. Europe has cost a lot of American blood and treasure in the pas century. It is past time for Europe to pay for its own defense and come to the aid of European nations under attack by a bully like Putin.

  • wifetrainedwifetrained Member Posts: 1,200 ✭✭✭✭

    The problem is that when it comes to war nowadays one can never chance, let alone afford, a misstep. There is something awry here as more and more Nato members seem to be clamoring for more escalation, crossing the "red" line. The fact that the chairman of Nato's military committee states that the alliance is ready for a direct confrontation with Russia is disturbing and patently absurd as the alliance, for decades, has failed to live up to its military obligations with Germany being amongst the worst offenders. All of the equipment supplied from Nato members has come from existing stockpiles which weakens them, so I don't see how the chairman thinks the Alliance is ready. If he truly believes it, he's delusional, if it's just blather, it's dangerous and risks potential escalatory missteps. Don't forget that four of the powers directly or indirectly involved in this conflict are nuclear armed.

  • jimdeerejimdeere Member, Moderator Posts: 24,423 ******

    The only way to win a fight is to close on the enemy with overwhelming force and destroy him.

  • wifetrainedwifetrained Member Posts: 1,200 ✭✭✭✭

    No argument there. But what we're seeing is dangerous. When it comes to major weapons systems being provided the numbers are ridiculously small, for example 14 used German Leopard 2 tanks and 12-14 used British Challenger tanks. Makes for good headlines I guess but in real terms that equates to 2 old school armored companies. Might win an engagement or two in the short term but will have no impact on either the tactical or strategic picture. 31 Abrams tanks that'll take 1-2 years to deliver. Again, it makes headlines but nothing else, wouldn't even equip an old school armored battalion. It was hinted at in the beginning that this conflict could take years, that appears to be how it's playing out.

  • 62vld204262vld2042 Member Posts: 499 ✭✭✭✭

    Well.......

    The Oligarchs put the Little Stalin INTO power.

    Perhaps if life becomes a bit too tough for them........as in loosing a few too many mega yachts........maybe they would remove him FROM power.

    Probably just wishful thinking.........but it would solve soooo many people's problems.

    Well......except for one person's. I'm sure there's no shortage of windows at the Kremlin. 🤔

  • Mr. PerfectMr. Perfect Member, Moderator Posts: 64,745 ******

    To clarify a bit, the only way to win a fight with an enemy invader is to close on the enemy with overwhelming force and destroy him. If you are taking the battle TO the enemy, you can not simply win this way. You must also be prepared to occupy.

    Some will die in hot pursuit
    And fiery auto crashes
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    While sifting through my ashes
    Some will fall in love with life
    And drink it from a fountain
    That is pouring like an avalanche
    Coming down the mountain
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