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M-1 Garand thread
montanajoe
Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 59,956 ******
This thread will be the information pulled from Mark Christian's post.
Comments
There were four US firearms firms that produced the M1 rifle. These were the US Armory at Springfield (SA), Winchester Repeating Arms (WRA), Harrington and Richardson (HRA), and International Harvester (IHC). It is common in Garand-speak to use the letter codes SA, WRA, HRA or IHC in place of the full manufacturers name.
So during what time periods were these firms making M1 rifles?
Springfield began M1 series production back in 1937, continued through WWII and then began producing M1s again During the Korean War. Winchester began their series M1 production in January 1941 and delivered their last complete M1 rifle in June, 1945. Winchester would never produce complete M1 rifles again and in fact sold all of their M1 tooling to Beretta in the 1950s. Both Harrington & Richardson and International Harvester produced post war M1 rifles. No M1s were built by either if these two firms during WWII.
Okay smart guy, I want a WWII M1 because of it's history. I know now that all Winchesters are WWII rifles but what about the Springfields, how can I tell a WWII rifle from a post war M1?
The easy way is by serial numbers. Any Springfield M1 rifle above 3.9 million is going to be post war while Pre WWII rifles will be numbered below about 400,000. Any rifle in the 7+ million range will be a commercial rifle, typically one produced by Springfield Armory Inc (the M1A folks).
I don't care about when the rifle was made, I just want the best built M1. Who made the best of the rifles and during which time period?
You have to remember that all M1s were subjected to very severe government inspections so every rifle which was accepted into service is going to be a good one. With that said you must also keep in mind that during WWII it was a matter of life or death to get as many M1s into the hands of our troops as fast as possible. Because of this, fit and finish and small details like parts polishing during WWII were not a priority. Dammit, there is a war on and we need M1s NOW so just skip the extra bit of polishing and send out that rifle! Some WWII M1 parts will in fact appear roughly finished but they will all function properly. In my opinion the best made of all of the M1s are the post war Springfields and the Harrington and Richardson M1s (all post war). There was more time to spend on careful production, especially after the end of the Korean War, and by that time Springfield had been building M1s for nearly 20 years so they knew what they were doing. H&R was an old time gun maker with decades of production experience behind them and they got into the M1 production program at near full speed, making wonderful rifles which are in most cases the match for any of the Springfield M1s.
Well I want a rare/ hard to find M1. Which of those four firms made the most and which one the fewest rifles?
Springfield produced something like 4,040,000 M1s, Winchester a little over 500,000, while H&R and IHC each produced under 500,000 M1s each. Clearly Springfields are the most common. While it would appear that it would be easier to find a Winchester than an IHC or H&R it is important to remember that all of the Winchester rifles were produced during WWII and they suffered large loses during that conflict. The surviving Winchesters then saw duty during the Korean War and they took a beating there as well. As a result of their two tours of duty Winchesters are often very hard to locate. It can also prove difficult to find an International Harvester and because of this the "Cornbinder M1s" are very popular with collectors.
So why is it that I see a lot of WWII period Springfields with barrels dated during the 1950's and 1960's?
Starting right after WWII our military began rebuilding M1s which were worn or damaged. This repair/rebuilding program continued well into the early 1960s and it is not uncommon to find M1s which have been rebuilt once, twice or even three of more times! As long as the receiver was within specifications Uncle Sam would just keep replacing barrels and parts to keep these old war horses in service. As an example of how vital it was to keep the older M1s in serviceable condition Springfield Armory rebuilt over 200,000 M1 rifles in 1948 alone and would average another 100,000 rebuilds each year up until 1952 when M1 production was resumed for the Korean War. Each M1 rebuilt in 1952 cost an average of $6 while a new rifle off the production line cost Uncle Sugar over eight times that amount! Rebuilding M1 rifles saved the taxpayers a bundle of cash and was much quicker than making a brand new rifle.
So what about getting an all matching M1, you know, a real collector's rifle?
Unlike many European firearms our military did not match the parts of a particular M1 rifle to that rifle's receiver by serial number.
Well I see a whole bunch of little numbers stamped on parts all over the rifle. What are these for?
Those numbers are called drawing numbers and are more or less production code numbers. As the M1 evolved it's parts were modified, in most cases very slightly, and these minor changes were reflected in a change in drawing numbers. Of course certain drawing numbers were only used on rifles during a specific production period so it is possible for collectors to look at a rifle, check the drawing numbers of it's parts, compare the known production dates and then determine of the parts are correct for an M1 in that serial number range.
Why is it that I see so many M1s with what would appear to be replacement barrels? My M1 carbines all have their original barrels. Are M1 barrels made from bad steel?
All pre war, war time and much of the post war .30-06 ammunition used by our military was loaded with corrosive primers and this took a toll on M1 rifle barrels and this is why it is hard to find a WWII M1 with it's original barrel. Barrel loses due to corrosion damage were so high that in 1944 Springfield produced over 400,000 replacement barrels in addition to barrels for brand new rifles coming off the production line. Chrome lining the barrel would have added an additional 75 cents per barrel (new unit cost) but the Army did not want to spend the money; so instead they ended up buying nearly 1 million replacement barrels at $3.50 each! All .30 M1 Carbine ammunition was loaded with non corrosive primers and this is why so many Carbines survived with their original barrels.
If there is any interest we can cover some basic M1 parts identification; just easy stuff to help you out at a gun show and nothing advanced.
I think I need to start a Mark Christian fan club!!! You are the best!
++1!!
Great article!! I could have read another 3-4 pages!!
Please sir,More Q&A!!
That's worth printing out!!
When are you gonna write damn book!?!?!
Between you and BDJ, I am gonna go crazy pushing you both to do what you BOTH know needs to be done.
Sheeesh!
NS
quote:Originally posted by Locust Fork
I think I need to start a Mark Christian fan club!!! You are the best!
++1!!
Great article!! I could have read another 3-4 pages!!
Please sir,More Q&A!!
That's worth printing out!!
Absolutely Mark... +1000
Fishy hit the nail on proverbial Head!!!
Being an engineer this stuff really works for me!
A comment about the drawing numbers...
Here in the good Ol'USA, industry most often uses drawing numbers for parts identification and
will revise and then reissue drawings with revision marks typically as a letter format or less often as a number format...
i.e.: Part Number (Dwg No.) 1234567rA or 1234567rB or 1234567rC...
In the European regions... They often use numbering sequences that are DIFFERENT than drawing numbers to identify parts...
i.e.: Part Number (AssyNo-xx) 12329-10 and 12329-20 and 12329-30...
Their revised parts would be like...
12329-11 indicating that the first part of the assembly was the 'second revision'
and 12329-27 indicating that the second part of the assembly was the seventh revision
and 12329-34 indicating the third part of the assembly was the fourth revision...
Much like a drawing number AND a serialized number or Assembly [dash] number to identify a part is from a particular assembly...
The European way of identification can and is confusing to say the least...
It also limits interchangeability at times between different assemblies with obviously shared parts...
such as 12329-11 is identical to 28756-32... just different assemblies...
They'll take the same part and identify it differently for the sake of different final assemblies...
I have to work with European parts AND American parts... jus'guess which I prefer... [;)]
Merry Christmas Mark.
Don
Mark,
When are you gonna write damn book!?!?!
Between you and BDJ, I am gonna go crazy pushing you both to do what you BOTH know needs to be done.
Sheeesh!
NS
Mark, you're a busy guy but you really need to make time to do this!
And MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!
Dammit. Now I want *another* Garand. [:0]
info in your head will be lost....[:(]
There is no computer program (yet) to compile
all that you know into a readable format...
Please look into writing down what you have
learned so future generations can benefit
from it...
Thanks and Merry Christmas
Thank you and MERRY CHRISTMAS!
If you can't feel the music; it's only pink noise!
So assuming the same cosmetic condition, which would be a better "keeper"?
A 1945 SA with SA barrel (also dated 1945) or a 1950's H & R, that also has a 1960's SA barrel?? Both are CMP pieces purchased 14-15 years ago.
Any opinions?
Thank you for the Christmas Gift Thread.
I have one of the new production Springfield Armory models and I love it.
Clouder..
I also thank you for sharing your knowledge....
So assuming the same cosmetic condition, which would be a better "keeper"?
A 1945 SA with SA barrel (also dated 1945) or a 1950's H & R, that also has a 1960's SA barrel?? Both are CMP pieces purchased 14-15 years ago.
Any opinions?
Sorry but I did not see your question until right now. I'd keep the WWII rifle with teh original barrel. An HRA with a replacement barrel might be a good shooter but WWII M1s with their original barrels are not common and that rifle will always have collector interest.
Feel free to go over to Ask The Experts and post all of your M1 questions. We have several guys over there (not just me) who live for them!
I can just see the sticky now:
"M1 Garand/Good Booze Identification In Detail"
(Heh Heh) Joe
You folks are very kind. I wasn't sure that this late in the holiday season anyone wold be around with the time to read my thread and I appreciate those of you who took the time out to do so. It is simply impossible to teach someone everything they need to know about the M1 rifle in one sitting but it was my hope that this thread would provide a general understanding of the rifle so that while wondering around a gun show they will not be completely overwhelmed. The purchase of a nice M1 Garand involves a goodly amount of money while the purchase of a collector quality M1 is a major investment and should not be rushed into without understanding exactly what it is that you are buying. After Christmas I'll bring up a series of brief threads which will help you to identify and understand the various parts of the M1 Garand. While it is true that most M1 parts look more or less alike, there are in fact many differences between what would otherwise be considered identical parts and these differences can often can mean many hundreds of dollars in value at point of sale.
Sooo... You're gonna write "The Book" through a 'Series' on the GB Forums... [^]
Good to know... I'll keep on this for sure! Thanks MC!
I seriously think im going to buy an International Harvester M1. I am the biggest IH fan ever. OMG that is awesome.
Cornbinder M1s are among the rarest of the M1 service rifles and are even tougher to find than Winchesters. Typical prices on a mixed-parts IHC is easily double the cost of a Springfield or HRA in identical condition so be prepared.
Excellent information you've provided, sir. Thanks for your continued support![:D]
The M1 Garand: World War II
and
The M1 Garand: Post World War II
I also highly recommend joining the Garand Collectors Association. Their journal publication is well worth the cost of admission, and they meet the requirement of an affiliated club for CMP M1 purchase.
Unlike many military rifles the parts on an M1 Garand were not serialized to the rifle's receiver and in fact the only part on an M1 Rifle with a serial number is the receiver and on USGI rifles this is always found on the heel. If you spot a serial number on an M1 anywhere but the receiver heel then you are looking at a foreign made rifle or a commercial copy. Although the individual parts were not serialized they were marked with what was known as a drawing number, which served as a means of identifying parts made during a specific production period as well as indicating updates, or revisions to the various parts. The very first M1 to come off the line had virtually every part and screw marked with a drawing number but as the years went by only the major components of the rifle continued to bear drawing numbers. As an example I chose to use the M1 hammer, a component part which underwent many revisions and was always marked with a drawing number:
[img][/img]
From left to right we can see a Winchester hammer, which has it's drawing number marked along the side of the hammer body (very early Springfield were marked the same way) followed by a selection of M1 hammers that range in use from serial number 65,000 all the way up to the end of production at around 6 million.
The first number you will see is C46008-2 SA, which is a very early M1 hammer. In this case the letter C represents the production drawing sheet (17X22 inches in size) with letters ranged from A-D. This is followed by the number 460008, which was the actual part number for an M1 hammer. The -2 represents the second revision (update) to the M1 hammer and the SA is the manufacturers code for Springfield Armory. WRA being Winchester, HRA for Harrington and Richardson and IHC for International Harvester. If you look closely you can see revision numbers -2, -3, -5, -7, -8 and -9. Revision numbers -4 and -6 were never used and the reason for this is currently unknown. You may notice that the two hammers on the extreme right are marked a bit differently than the previous hammers. Those two hammers are post war production and during that period the entire parts marking process was over hauled and differs from WWII and pre war markings. From a collector standpoint this makes is child's play to identify post war parts from WWII parts. In the case of the post war hammer the letter C denotes an early hammer while the letter D denotes the first revision. The manufacturers codes remained the same except that Winchester never produced rifles after WWII so there are no post war Winchester hammers.
If you look at all of those hammers you will notice that with the exception of the markings they all pretty much look identical. The simple fact is that most revisions consists of very minor manufacturing changes that are often impossible to detect with the naked eye. Bolts, hammers, trigger housings, safeties and operating rods were the parts with the greatest numbers of revisions, but there were also changes to many other parts during the many decades the M1 was in service. Keeping track of all of the various parts marking and being able to ID them on sight can take many years to learn and keeps collectors busy rooting through piles of parts at gun shows searching for the -2 hammer which will finally finish out a pre war M1 restoration.
Unlike many military rifles the parts on an M1 Garand were not serialized to the rifle's receiver and in fact the only part on an M1 Rifle with a serial number is the receiver and on USGI rifles this is always found on the heel. If you spot a serial number on an M1 anywhere but the receiver heel then you are looking at a foreign made rifle or a commercial copy. Although the individual parts were not serialized they were marked with what was known as a drawing number, which served as a means of identifying parts made during a specific production period as well as indicating updates, or revisions to the various parts. The very first M1 to come off the line had virtually every part and screw marked with a drawing number but as the years went by only the major components of the rifle continued to bear drawing numbers. As an example I chose to use the M1 hammer, a component part which underwent many revisions and was always marked with a drawing number:
[img][/img]
From left to right we can see a Winchester hammer, which has it's drawing number marked along the side of the hammer body (very early Springfield were marked the same way) followed by a selection of M1 hammers that range in use from serial number 65,000 all the way up to the end of production at around 6 million.
The first number you will see is C46008-2 SA, which is a very early M1 hammer. In this case the letter C represents the production drawing sheet (17X22 inches in size) with letters ranged from A-D. This is followed by the number 460008, which was the actual part number for an M1 hammer. The -2 represents the second revision (update) to the M1 hammer and the SA is the manufacturers code for Springfield Armory. WRA being Winchester, HRA for Harrington and Richardson and IHC for International Harvester. If you look closely you can see revision numbers -2, -3, -5, -7, -8 and -9. Revision numbers -4 and -6 were never used and the reason for this is currently unknown. You may notice that the two hammers on the extreme right are marked a bit differently than the previous hammers. Those two hammers are post war production and during that period the entire parts marking process was over hauled and differs from WWII and pre war markings. From a collector standpoint this makes is child's play to identify post war parts from WWII parts. In the case of the post war hammer the letter C denotes an early hammer while the letter D denotes the first revision. The manufacturers codes remained the same except that Winchester never produced rifles after WWII so there are no post war Winchester hammers.
If you look at all of those hammers you will notice that with the exception of the markings they all pretty much look identical. The simple fact is that most revisions consists of very minor manufacturing changes that are often impossible to detect with the naked eye. Bolts, hammers, trigger housings, safeties and operating rods were the parts with the greatest numbers of revisions, but there were also changes to many other parts during the many decades the M1 was in service. Keeping track of all of the various parts marking and being able to ID them on sight can take many years to learn and keeps collectors busy rooting through piles of parts at gun shows searching for the -2 hammer which will finally finish out a pre war M1 restoration.