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mark christianForums Admins, Member, ModeratorPosts: 24,456******
edited November -1
quote:Originally posted by shilowar
I have an SA born in 1947, bought it as a Service Grade from CMP 10 years ago. It was a Greek Loaner. So could it have seen use in Korea prior to being loaned to Greece? Or were they produced and directly loaned to Greece since WWII was over?
There were no new M1 rifles being produced in 1947 so your rifle probably (I am just guessing) went through a post war rebuild and now has a replacement barrel dated 1947. If it has a WWII era serial number (up to 3.9 million) then there is an excellent chance that it saw action in WWII as well as Korea before being sent out on loan to Greece.
quote:Originally posted by mark christian
quote:Originally posted by shilowar
I have an SA born in 1947, bought it as a Service Grade from CMP 10 years ago. It was a Greek Loaner. So could it have seen use in Korea prior to being loaned to Greece? Or were they produced and directly loaned to Greece since WWII was over?
There were no new M1 rifles being produced in 1947 so your rifle probably (I am just guessing) went through a post war rebuild and now has a replacement barrel dated 1947. If it has a WWII era serial number (up to 3.9 million) then there is an excellent chance that it saw action in WWII as well as Korea before being sent out on loan to Greece.
Wonder I got that...apparently I was wrong, my serial is much newer 5790000, but it was sold as a Greek loaner, it has a 65 barrel.
mark christianForums Admins, Member, ModeratorPosts: 24,456******
edited November -1
5.79 million. Is it an HRA or a Springfield? If it is a Springfield you have an extremely rare and unusual serial number, one of only around 6200 produced (I have one and they are impossible to find). If it is an HRA then you have of the very last one's off the line. The 1965 replacement barrel hurts the value of an HRA but if it is a Springfield it is still worth good coin as is. Send me an e-mail at markinrancho@att.net so that we can go into the rifle in depth.
quote:Originally posted by mark christian
5.79 million. Is it an HRA or a Springfield? If it is a Springfield you have an extremely rare and unusual serial number, one of only around 6200 produced (I have one and they are impossible to find). If it is an HRA then you have of the very last one's off the line. The 1965 replacement barrel hurts the value of an HRA but if it is a Springfield it is still worth good coin as is. Send me an e-mail at markinrancho@att.net so that we can go into the rifle in depth.
ok, it is a mix of parts...HRA trigger group, but is has a SA barrel and op rod.
mark christianForums Admins, Member, ModeratorPosts: 24,456******
edited November -1
quote:Originally posted by shilowar
quote:Originally posted by mark christian
5.79 million. Is it an HRA or a Springfield? If it is a Springfield you have an extremely rare and unusual serial number, one of only around 6200 produced (I have one and they are impossible to find). If it is an HRA then you have of the very last one's off the line. The 1965 replacement barrel hurts the value of an HRA but if it is a Springfield it is still worth good coin as is. Send me an e-mail at markinrancho@att.net so that we can go into the rifle in depth.
ok, it is a mix of parts...HRA trigger group, but is has a SA barrel and op rod.
JACKPOT!. There were only 6152 Springfields produced on the 5.79 million range (virtually the entire 5.7 million block was assigned to H&R) making it one of the rarest serial numbers out there. It took me 15 years to track down a 5.79 million SA and you just ordered an M1 blind and scored big...Oh the injustice of it all [;)]. I strongly urge you to hold onto the rifle because you likely won't live long enough to ever find another like it.
I'm curious as to why any 579xxxx serial numbered M1 produced by Springfield Armory would command any sort of premium? It is my understanding that blocks of serial numbers were assigned to contractors and when one block was done, the individual contractor just proceeded onto the next one without a break in production.
Is there a significant number of people who collect serial numbers such that this rifle would command a premium? I do know a Springfield Armory M1 with a serial number in the 6 million range does command a premium because it's the end of production.
mark christianForums Admins, Member, ModeratorPosts: 24,456******
edited November -1
quote:Originally posted by CDMead
I'm curious as to why any 579xxxx serial numbered M1 produced by Springfield Armory would command any sort of premium? It is my understanding that blocks of serial numbers were assigned to contractors and when one block was done, the individual contractor just proceeded onto the next one without a break in production.
Is there a significant number of people who collect serial numbers such that this rifle would command a premium? I do know a Springfield Armory M1 with a serial number in the 6 million range does command a premium because it's the end of production.
Thanks,
Charlie
The average M1 bear simply wants a rifle from each of the four manufacturers (SA, WRA, IHC, HRA) and a post war SA thrown in for good measure. There are however advanced collectors who want rifles from every M1 productions block, some of which are virtually impossible to locate due to limited numbers in that particular serial number range. Post war Springfields for instance exist in the 4.2 million range, 4.3 million, 5 million (only 499 ever produced so a virtual impossibility to locate one), 5.2 million (hard to find), 5.3 million, 5.4 million, 5.7 million (very difficult to locate), 5.8 million, 5.9 million and 6 million (hard to find). As you can see it would take ten M1s just to complete a full collection of post war Springfield serial number blocks. 4.2 million, 4.3, 5.3, 5.4, 5.8 and 5.9 million SAs are very common and not too difficult to find while the other serial blocks are much less so. The same sort of thing exists with Harrington and Richardson rifles as well as well as International Harvester, although to a lesser degree due to lower production numbers and tighter serial number blocks assigned to those manufacturers. Basically Springfield "picked up the slack" on any serial numbers that remained unused in various production blocks and this lead to a wide range of serial numbers in post war Springfields.
Thanks, Mark. That's great information! One day I will eventually get a Garand, so I keep tucking good information like that away for when it's needed.
One point I will make about your comment on Carbine ammo:
quote:
All .30 M1 Carbine ammunition was loaded with non corrosive primers and this is why so many Carbines survived with their original barrels.
I'd modify that slightly to say, "All U.S.-made .30 M1 Carbine ammunition was loaded with non-corrosive primers...."
Foreign manufacturers of M1 Carbine ammo have used corrosive primers.
It's being willing. I found out early that most men, regardless of cause or need, aren't willing. They blink an eye or draw a breath before they pull the trigger. I won't. ~ J.B. Books
mark christianForums Admins, Member, ModeratorPosts: 24,456******
edited November 2013
I get e-mails every day asking M1 questions from what seem to be the four corners of the world and some of them are worth doing a thread on. Like all M1 Rifle parts nothing was set in stone as far as updates and revisions until the DoD "froze" the M1 design at the start up of post WWII production. John Garand had always felt that his M1 Rifle was a work in progress but after 15 years and four million M1s off the line, the Army felt the design had progressed enough! Although several sub types of M1 Trigger Guards exist, there are only two major designs and one widely used sub type and these three will be the focus of this piece:
Top to Bottom:
(TOP) Milled guard which saw use during pre war as well as into mid WWII production.
(MIDDLE) WWII era stamped guard which saw use beginning in around June, 1944 and remained the standard type until post war production began.
(BOTTOM) Post war stamped guard which was adopted at the start of post war production and became the finalized design.
The key to the differences between a WWII and post war stamped guards lies in the little hook/latch on the tip of the guard. The WWII era guards had a milled notch in their latch (just like the early milled guards) while the post war guards have only a tab for locking purposes. Even with no milled cut to secure the latch the tab design functioned fine. This photo, with the WWII guard on the left, will show the variation:
The stamped guards took about 75% less time to produce than the milled type and production time was critical. Although the actual cost savings between the two types was "only" fifteen cents, Uncle Sam was ordering M1s in the millions of units and since fifteen cents times millions of M1s (plus spare parts production) adds up quick, the savings was very real. Only Winchester stuck with the older milled guard throughout production, although a few thousand of the last Winchester rifles off the line did make some use of the stamped trigger guards. The old milled guards were never declared unserviceable and called in for mandatory replacement with the newer type so as long as they remained in good condition (they were built of solid steel so wearing out was not much of an issue) they remained in service and often showed up on M1s many years after the stamped guards were supposed to have replaced them. The large hole in the rear of the milled guard was easily adaptable for attaching a winter trigger (which snapped right in to the hole) and are favored even today by shooters who want to use those devices.
That is far from the entire M1 trigger Guard story...But it is enough!
mark christianForums Admins, Member, ModeratorPosts: 24,456******
edited November 2013
I get e-mails every day asking M1 questions from what seem to be the four corners of the world and some of them are worth doing a thread on. Like all M1 Rifle parts nothing was set in stone as far as updates and revisions until the DoD "froze" the M1 design at the start up of post WWII production. John Garand had always felt that his M1 Rifle was a work in progress but after 15 years and four million M1s off the line, the Army felt the design had progressed enough! Although several sub types of M1 Trigger Guards exist, there are only two major designs and one widely used sub type and these three will be the focus of this piece:
Top to Bottom:
(TOP) Milled guard which saw use during pre war as well as into mid WWII production.
(MIDDLE) WWII era stamped guard which saw use beginning in around June, 1944 and remained the standard type until post war production began.
(BOTTOM) Post war stamped guard which was adopted at the start of post war production and became the finalized design.
The key to the differences between a WWII and post war stamped guards lies in the little hook/latch on the tip of the guard. The WWII era guards had a milled notch in their latch (just like the early milled guards) while the post war guards have only a tab for locking purposes. Even with no milled cut to secure the latch the tab design functioned fine. This photo, with the WWII guard on the left, will show the variation:
The stamped guards took about 75% less time to produce than the milled type and production time was critical. Although the actual cost savings between the two types was "only" fifteen cents, Uncle Sam was ordering M1s in the millions of units and since fifteen cents times millions of M1s (plus spare parts production) adds up quick, the savings was very real. Only Winchester stuck with the older milled guard throughout production, although a few thousand of the last Winchester rifles off the line did make some use of the stamped trigger guards. The old milled guards were never declared unserviceable and called in for mandatory replacement with the newer type so as long as they remained in good condition (they were built of solid steel so wearing out was not much of an issue) they remained in service and often showed up on M1s many years after the stamped guards were supposed to have replaced them. The large hole in the rear of the milled guard was easily adaptable for attaching a winter trigger (which snapped right in to the hole) and are favored even today by shooters who want to use those devices.
That is far from the entire M1 trigger Guard story...But it is enough!
Thanks, Mark! I've never seen a stamped guard with a milled hook before. I literally learn something new every time you post anything on the M1.[:)][^]
An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it.
quote:Originally posted by fishkiller41
i always thought that hole was for locking the rifles safety in the safe position.Such as on a rack of rifles...
mark christianForums Admins, Member, ModeratorPosts: 24,456******
edited November -1
The purpose of the hole was to aid in disassembly. The first few trigger guards had no loop at all and it was up to the soldier to pry the gaurd open as best he could...Strong fingers being a must! When the hole was first added there were concentric grooves cut around the hole to allow for easier graspng but since this was all done by machining it was deemed too expensive and time consuming and the grasping grooves were eliminated after around 40,000 guards were made. These early guards with rings are super rare and I don't have one to show you (I prefer to use only my own M1 parts in all of my M1 photos and not stuff lifted from the net) [xx(].
If you look at this photo you can see how a .30-06 Ball cartridge is inserted into the hole so it can be used to pry open the guard:
Did you notice that the areas on the left and right ends of the hole have a slight taper?
This is to allow for the taper on the shoulder of the .30-06 cartridge case and when you look even closer (the red arrow) you can see how the interior of the hole was "relieved" so that the entire neck of the case was in contact with the interior of the hole and not the unsupported bullet, which could have been easily deformed during the process of opening the guard.
The guys who designed this stuff were not fooling around, every little detail was taken into account!
A cable of the right diameter can be run through the hole but the trigger group can be removed as a unit leaving the entire rifle free to be removed with the trigger group still locked on to the cable. It is not a secure way to store M1s.
A couple of my Garands have the hole at the rear of the trigger guard. I use it for taking the gun apart but didn't know it was put there for that purpose.
mark christianForums Admins, Member, ModeratorPosts: 24,456******
edited November -1
The stamped guards, being made of lighter metal, were flexible and much easier to open with just finger pressure. If you look at the rear of a stamped guard you can see where a little extra metal was left in place to give you a better grip with your fingers:
The M1 Rifle as we know it today is well over half a century old and most rifles in circulation have long since "worn in" but when they were new they were tight. At the factory the standard procedure for closing a new trigger guard was to give it a sharp rap with a rubber or leather mallet! Getting a brand new guard to open with your fingers after it was closed with a mallet would be like taking a tire off your car with that little lug wrench the manufacturer provided in your trunk after the tire had been put on with an impact gun at the tire shop!
Comments
I have an SA born in 1947, bought it as a Service Grade from CMP 10 years ago. It was a Greek Loaner. So could it have seen use in Korea prior to being loaned to Greece? Or were they produced and directly loaned to Greece since WWII was over?
There were no new M1 rifles being produced in 1947 so your rifle probably (I am just guessing) went through a post war rebuild and now has a replacement barrel dated 1947. If it has a WWII era serial number (up to 3.9 million) then there is an excellent chance that it saw action in WWII as well as Korea before being sent out on loan to Greece.
quote:Originally posted by shilowar
I have an SA born in 1947, bought it as a Service Grade from CMP 10 years ago. It was a Greek Loaner. So could it have seen use in Korea prior to being loaned to Greece? Or were they produced and directly loaned to Greece since WWII was over?
There were no new M1 rifles being produced in 1947 so your rifle probably (I am just guessing) went through a post war rebuild and now has a replacement barrel dated 1947. If it has a WWII era serial number (up to 3.9 million) then there is an excellent chance that it saw action in WWII as well as Korea before being sent out on loan to Greece.
Wonder I got that...apparently I was wrong, my serial is much newer 5790000, but it was sold as a Greek loaner, it has a 65 barrel.
5.79 million. Is it an HRA or a Springfield? If it is a Springfield you have an extremely rare and unusual serial number, one of only around 6200 produced (I have one and they are impossible to find). If it is an HRA then you have of the very last one's off the line. The 1965 replacement barrel hurts the value of an HRA but if it is a Springfield it is still worth good coin as is. Send me an e-mail at markinrancho@att.net so that we can go into the rifle in depth.
ok, it is a mix of parts...HRA trigger group, but is has a SA barrel and op rod.
There fixed it
quote:Originally posted by mark christian
5.79 million. Is it an HRA or a Springfield? If it is a Springfield you have an extremely rare and unusual serial number, one of only around 6200 produced (I have one and they are impossible to find). If it is an HRA then you have of the very last one's off the line. The 1965 replacement barrel hurts the value of an HRA but if it is a Springfield it is still worth good coin as is. Send me an e-mail at markinrancho@att.net so that we can go into the rifle in depth.
ok, it is a mix of parts...HRA trigger group, but is has a SA barrel and op rod.
JACKPOT!. There were only 6152 Springfields produced on the 5.79 million range (virtually the entire 5.7 million block was assigned to H&R) making it one of the rarest serial numbers out there. It took me 15 years to track down a 5.79 million SA and you just ordered an M1 blind and scored big...Oh the injustice of it all [;)]. I strongly urge you to hold onto the rifle because you likely won't live long enough to ever find another like it.
I guess its worth the $522.95 I paid CMP for it 8 years ago, shipping included [:D]
Is there a significant number of people who collect serial numbers such that this rifle would command a premium? I do know a Springfield Armory M1 with a serial number in the 6 million range does command a premium because it's the end of production.
Thanks,
Charlie
I'm curious as to why any 579xxxx serial numbered M1 produced by Springfield Armory would command any sort of premium? It is my understanding that blocks of serial numbers were assigned to contractors and when one block was done, the individual contractor just proceeded onto the next one without a break in production.
Is there a significant number of people who collect serial numbers such that this rifle would command a premium? I do know a Springfield Armory M1 with a serial number in the 6 million range does command a premium because it's the end of production.
Thanks,
Charlie
The average M1 bear simply wants a rifle from each of the four manufacturers (SA, WRA, IHC, HRA) and a post war SA thrown in for good measure. There are however advanced collectors who want rifles from every M1 productions block, some of which are virtually impossible to locate due to limited numbers in that particular serial number range. Post war Springfields for instance exist in the 4.2 million range, 4.3 million, 5 million (only 499 ever produced so a virtual impossibility to locate one), 5.2 million (hard to find), 5.3 million, 5.4 million, 5.7 million (very difficult to locate), 5.8 million, 5.9 million and 6 million (hard to find). As you can see it would take ten M1s just to complete a full collection of post war Springfield serial number blocks. 4.2 million, 4.3, 5.3, 5.4, 5.8 and 5.9 million SAs are very common and not too difficult to find while the other serial blocks are much less so. The same sort of thing exists with Harrington and Richardson rifles as well as well as International Harvester, although to a lesser degree due to lower production numbers and tighter serial number blocks assigned to those manufacturers. Basically Springfield "picked up the slack" on any serial numbers that remained unused in various production blocks and this lead to a wide range of serial numbers in post war Springfields.
One point I will make about your comment on Carbine ammo:
quote:
All .30 M1 Carbine ammunition was loaded with non corrosive primers and this is why so many Carbines survived with their original barrels.
I'd modify that slightly to say, "All U.S.-made .30 M1 Carbine ammunition was loaded with non-corrosive primers...."
Foreign manufacturers of M1 Carbine ammo have used corrosive primers.
Thanks for the info.
Did a C&P into my library. [^][^]
Top to Bottom:
(TOP) Milled guard which saw use during pre war as well as into mid WWII production.
(MIDDLE) WWII era stamped guard which saw use beginning in around June, 1944 and remained the standard type until post war production began.
(BOTTOM) Post war stamped guard which was adopted at the start of post war production and became the finalized design.
The key to the differences between a WWII and post war stamped guards lies in the little hook/latch on the tip of the guard. The WWII era guards had a milled notch in their latch (just like the early milled guards) while the post war guards have only a tab for locking purposes. Even with no milled cut to secure the latch the tab design functioned fine. This photo, with the WWII guard on the left, will show the variation:
The stamped guards took about 75% less time to produce than the milled type and production time was critical. Although the actual cost savings between the two types was "only" fifteen cents, Uncle Sam was ordering M1s in the millions of units and since fifteen cents times millions of M1s (plus spare parts production) adds up quick, the savings was very real. Only Winchester stuck with the older milled guard throughout production, although a few thousand of the last Winchester rifles off the line did make some use of the stamped trigger guards. The old milled guards were never declared unserviceable and called in for mandatory replacement with the newer type so as long as they remained in good condition (they were built of solid steel so wearing out was not much of an issue) they remained in service and often showed up on M1s many years after the stamped guards were supposed to have replaced them. The large hole in the rear of the milled guard was easily adaptable for attaching a winter trigger (which snapped right in to the hole) and are favored even today by shooters who want to use those devices.
That is far from the entire M1 trigger Guard story...But it is enough!
Top to Bottom:
(TOP) Milled guard which saw use during pre war as well as into mid WWII production.
(MIDDLE) WWII era stamped guard which saw use beginning in around June, 1944 and remained the standard type until post war production began.
(BOTTOM) Post war stamped guard which was adopted at the start of post war production and became the finalized design.
The key to the differences between a WWII and post war stamped guards lies in the little hook/latch on the tip of the guard. The WWII era guards had a milled notch in their latch (just like the early milled guards) while the post war guards have only a tab for locking purposes. Even with no milled cut to secure the latch the tab design functioned fine. This photo, with the WWII guard on the left, will show the variation:
The stamped guards took about 75% less time to produce than the milled type and production time was critical. Although the actual cost savings between the two types was "only" fifteen cents, Uncle Sam was ordering M1s in the millions of units and since fifteen cents times millions of M1s (plus spare parts production) adds up quick, the savings was very real. Only Winchester stuck with the older milled guard throughout production, although a few thousand of the last Winchester rifles off the line did make some use of the stamped trigger guards. The old milled guards were never declared unserviceable and called in for mandatory replacement with the newer type so as long as they remained in good condition (they were built of solid steel so wearing out was not much of an issue) they remained in service and often showed up on M1s many years after the stamped guards were supposed to have replaced them. The large hole in the rear of the milled guard was easily adaptable for attaching a winter trigger (which snapped right in to the hole) and are favored even today by shooters who want to use those devices.
That is far from the entire M1 trigger Guard story...But it is enough!
i always thought that hole was for locking the rifles safety in the safe position.Such as on a rack of rifles...
How would you do that ?
If you look at this photo you can see how a .30-06 Ball cartridge is inserted into the hole so it can be used to pry open the guard:
Did you notice that the areas on the left and right ends of the hole have a slight taper?
This is to allow for the taper on the shoulder of the .30-06 cartridge case and when you look even closer (the red arrow) you can see how the interior of the hole was "relieved" so that the entire neck of the case was in contact with the interior of the hole and not the unsupported bullet, which could have been easily deformed during the process of opening the guard.
The guys who designed this stuff were not fooling around, every little detail was taken into account!
A cable of the right diameter can be run through the hole but the trigger group can be removed as a unit leaving the entire rifle free to be removed with the trigger group still locked on to the cable. It is not a secure way to store M1s.
Hey, thanks for the education Mark!!
+1,,[^][^][8D][8D]
Lots of M1 fans here.
Thanks, Mark.
The M1 Rifle as we know it today is well over half a century old and most rifles in circulation have long since "worn in" but when they were new they were tight. At the factory the standard procedure for closing a new trigger guard was to give it a sharp rap with a rubber or leather mallet! Getting a brand new guard to open with your fingers after it was closed with a mallet would be like taking a tire off your car with that little lug wrench the manufacturer provided in your trunk after the tire had been put on with an impact gun at the tire shop!
btt