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Unfit for Command
gregoryhart1
Member Posts: 518 ✭✭✭
I just got through reading the Fake & Wannabe posting which is oddly appropriate since I just started reading the John Kerry story as told by Swift Boat Veterans. My question is this, has anyone on this forum served with Kerry or does anyone have any firsthand experience with the writers of the book?
Thank you for your input and above all, your service.
GH1[:)]
Thank you for your input and above all, your service.
GH1[:)]
Comments
I just got through reading the Fake & Wannabe posting which is oddly appropriate since I just started reading the John Kerry story as told by Swift Boat Veterans. My question is this, has anyone on this forum served with Kerry or does anyone have any firsthand experience with the writers of the book?
Thank you for your input and above all, your service.
GH1[:)]
Yes, and yes.
Doug Reese
GH1[:)]
Is the book accurate?
GH1[:)]
No. It is anything but.
Look me up (in the book) and I'll give you an example -- connected with what I told them, and what they put in the book.
Doug Reese
GH1[:)]
No can do, I returned it to the fellow I borrowed it from.
GH1[:)]
Ok, no problem. If you Googled me and added kerry drudge, you would come up with quite a bit. Let me give you one link, as it covers a lot of the bs. This was back when Unfit for Command was being promoted, in early August, 2004.
It's dinner time over here, so I won't comment further now. Just go to the link and read it all, although the mention of me is at the bottom. I'll try to come back here later tonight (my tonight is your evening, if you know what I mean) and go from top to bottom and explain all the misrepresentations and outright lies. . . . there are many!
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/swift_boat_nuts/
Doug Reese
I'll post more about this later.
......................................
Doug Reese, a pro Kerry Army veteran, recounted what happened that day to O'Neill, "Far from being alone, the boats were loaded with many soldiers commanded by Reese and two other advisors. When fired at, Reese's boat-not Kerry's-was the first to beach in the ambush zone. Then Reese and other troops and advisors (not Kerry) disembarked, killing a number of Viet Cong and capturing a number of weapons. None of the participants from Reese's boat received Silver Stars.
..............................................
1. I have never, ever, spoken to O'Neill about that day. Either drudge or O'Neill are lying.
2. I am not here, or in the book, quoted. Make no mistake about that - not a single quote from me.
3. The fact that the Swift Boats had Vietnamese soldiers on them has been noted in the after-action report and Kerry's citation. It is not now, in 2004, or any time prior to that something that was hidden.
4. I am not sure what boat beached first at the initial ambush site (there were two sites, three boats), but the fact is that ALL the boats beached. The only Americans who got off were myself and the other two advisors - along with the Vietnamese soldiers from all three boats.
5. No one has ever claimed that Kerry got off at what was the first ambush site that day.
6. A number of awards were given to those on my boat. No Silver Stars, but Bronze Stars, etc.
Doug Reese
Doug, I know you support him, and I'm not insulting that support in any way, but the man jerk is a liar and you will find he has very little support from those he told these lies on or those who served with him or around him, under his command or not.
Kerry's career is right where is should be, finished.
Doug Reese
Regarding the Ph's -- they were hardly political. Many Swiftees received them for similiar (minor) wounds.
Doug Reese
We'll agree to disagree on that one, but either way, he's a liar and unfit for public office of any kind in my eyes.
Doug
It's (the PHs) not a matter of opinion, but a matter of fact.
Doug
I mean on the "fact" that "his" were political or not. His were. The only reason he was there for 7 months was to get some awards so he could run for political office once he got home. The only reason he lied and was "anti-war" was because that was the political popularity of the time.
If the politcal stand had been "prowar", you would have heard much different words from Kerry's mouth. All he wanted was "elected".
So, his PH's were political, but those belonging to other's weren't? Does that include the PH he received where he still has the shrapnel in his leg?
Doug
PS. It was less than 5 months.
Well, that's certainly the typical anti-Kerry stance, I'll give you that much.
So, his PH's were political, but those belonging to other's weren't? Does that include the PH he received where he still has the shrapnel in his leg?
Doug
PS. It was less than 5 months.
Interesting reply.
All of the reports I've read on his wounds. none of them said he had any shrapnel left in his leg. None of them, anywhere.
I believe Kerry was planning his political career and used 5 or 7 months of active duty to attempt to start it. I have no respect for that from either side of the isle, and there are cases of it on both sides.
You may know the man on a personal level, I don't, but I don't have to know him personally to hold him responsible for the lies out of his mouth about men who served and died with honor and no political motives in their service. I don't support liars. Any of them.
You have obviously judged me as anti-Kerry by your words when in fact I am anti-political and anti-liar.
You seem to be comfortable supporting his lies and accusing the swift boat veterans of being liars. What is the difference? A liar is a liar, and I don't support any of them.
I also dislike and do not support many of Kerry's politics, but I know some folks don't think I have the right to my opinion if it differs from theirs, and to be honest, I don't care for anyone who doesn't give a man the right to his political view and tries to make some kind of accusatory defamation of their character or beliefs when they don't.
I simply disagreed with you and see him in a much different light than you do, so now I'm the bad guy.
Typical.
I honor all service as it was given, even Kerry's. I don't honor lies about others who served or exploitation of falsified service for political gain, again, on either side of the isle.
quote:Originally posted by DougReese
Well, that's certainly the typical anti-Kerry stance, I'll give you that much.
So, his PH's were political, but those belonging to other's weren't? Does that include the PH he received where he still has the shrapnel in his leg?
Doug
PS. It was less than 5 months.
Interesting reply.
All of the reports I've read on his wounds. none of them said he had any shrapnel left in his leg. None of them, anywhere.
I believe Kerry was planning his political career and used 5 or 7 months of active duty to attempt to start it. I have no respect for that from either side of the isle, and there are cases of it on both sides.
You may know the man on a personal level, I don't, but I don't have to hold him responsible for the lies out of his mouth about the men who served and died with honor and no political motives in their service. I don't support liars. Any of them.
You have obviously judged me as anti-Kerry by you words when in fact I am Anti-political and anti-liar.
You seem to be comfortable supporting his lies and accusing the swift boat veterans of being liars. What is the difference? A liar is a liar and I don't support any of them.
I also dislike and do not support many of Kerry's politics, but I know some folks don't think I have the right to my opinion if it differs from theirs, and to be honest, I don't care for anyone who doesn't give a man the right to his political view and tries to make some kind of accusatory defamation of their character or beliefs when they don't.
I simply disagreed with you and see him in a much different light than you do, so now I'm the bad guy.
Typical.
I honor all service as it was given, even Kerry's. I don't honor lies about others who served or exploitation of falsified service for political gain, again, on either side of the isle.
Ah, so now you're putting words in my mouth. Words that in fact never came out of it.
Are some of the Swift Boat guys liars? Absolutely. But precious few fall into that category. That mostly falls on the head of their spokesman, who is a master of twisting words to suit his purpose. He also lies with reckless abandon.
As for the shrapnel, that comes from his doctor. As for that particular PH, it was the second. You may not have read what the doctor said, or the report of what happened that day, but it is still in his leg.
You may well be anti-political and anti-liar. But without a doubt you are also anti-Kerry. No big deal, as quite a few people fall into that category.
I am "comfortable supporting his lies"? Well, you seem to be the one who decides what is a lie and what isn't. You also seem to have decided that I support what you deem to be a lie.
And now I think you're the "bad guy" because we disagree? Hardly.
I do my best to stick to facts. Opinion, of course, is there, but much of what I focus on is fact -- such as what began getting me in this discussion. The utter nonsense that is in Unfit for Command to be specific.
And you are more than welcome to back up the "falsified service" claim. Please do your best to make it something substantial, if you would.
Doug Reese
His lies are well published and even he couldn't explain the flip flop in what he said. The lies he told to congress about the ear necklaces were for nothing other than political gain.
As for his falsified service, I am talking about the stories he tells of running after NVA through the jungle when it was proven he never did. Again, lies that you seem to be fine with because you support either the man or the party.
He is nothing other than a typical politician. I don't care for them. They will tell you whatever they need to to get a vote. I'm sick of the bunch of them, both democrats and republicans.
You are obviously pro-Kerry. I don't know if it is the politics, the man or both, nor does it matter, you are free to vote as you wish, and so am I. I usually vote a split ticket, but I don't vote for liars, socialist or yes-men, and that doesn't leave many on the ticket I can vote for these days.
Kerry and his kind make me sick with their politics. He may be a kind man, but he is a liar and that leaves little room for finding goodness in him. He and his kind are all that seem to run for public office, at least on the national level, yet I see many who will put the facts aside and continue to support them, and that is why we have them in office.
I am very well-versed in all the stories, claims, etc, true and false, regarding Kerry. But I have never, ever, heard such a thing.
Besides the fact that we had only VC down where we were (I'll let that go as a confusion of terms -- VC vs NVA), just when did he claim to be chasing anyone through the jungle?
Was it, by any chance, in the course of the incident for which he received the Silver Star? If so, he did chase a guy (VC) through the brush ever so briefly. But that is all that I think of that even remotely comes close to what you are claiming he said.
You said "Again, lies that you seem to be fine with because you support either the man or the party."
As I mentioned, I am not aware of any such "lies". I go up against those who disparage his service with lies, misrepresentations or unsupported allegations because I was present for some of the time Kerry served in Vietnam. I know some of this rubbish to be false, from personal, firsthand experience.
From what I can see from your posts here, your knowledge comes from what you have read (nothing wrong with that, by the way), but you seem to have, well, misremembered, as much of what you have posted just isn't true.
Doug Reese
You will not change my mind, nor I yours. Like I said many post ago, we can agree to disagree, because we are not going to sway each other even a little.
You have made claims about his service which you seem to not be able to back up . . . like that "chasing the NVA through the jungle"?
Where oh where did you get that from?
Doug Reese
PS. Do you really think there weren't any ear necklaces? Really?
My support is for his service. You have chosen to go after other aspects of his life, and that's fine with me. You don't like his politics. Fine. You think he's a liar. Fine by me.
You have made claims about his service which you seem to not be able to back up . . . like that "chasing the NVA through the jungle"?
Where oh where did you get that from?
Doug Reese
PS. Do you really think there weren't any ear necklaces? Really?
I was trying to give you the last word, but you just won't take it.
The "chasing the NVA through the jungle" was, to the best of my recollection from 5 or so years ago, a claim that they had him on record as saying, and several former Seamen who served with him saying it was a lie. Since I wasn't there (I was but not with him or in the Navy) I listened to both sides and believed the other. Not because they were more credible, but because I had already watched a tape of him testifying before Congress, heard his tales, knew they were lies, and had pretty much decided he was not truthful, so when I saw 6 or 7 men who served with him, had a history of being truthful, and saying he, who I knew was a liar, was not being honest, I believed them, and still do. Not to mention his lie about throwing his medals in the river. One he stated many times, then recanted himself. (Basically admitting he lied about it)
Now, here you are, and I don't know you from Adam, telling me he is honest, when, as stated earlier, I know he is a liar. You, telling me, one on one. Phffft! I was told Richard Nixon was honest too, and look how that turned out.
As for the "ear necklaces", was there one somewhere? I can't say. Was it common practice like he said? Absolutely not! From 1968 until 1972, I was a constant on the ground, and never, I mean NEVER did I see or hear of even the one that may have existed, if it did. For him to say the foot soldiers did such things as common practice, along with the other atrocities he lied about, pretty much speaks to the character of the man, and I have no use for someone who is a (known to me as factual) liar.
Now, to your defense, the man you know may be a different man. You may believe all he said, and he may have said different things to you, some or all of which are true. This could make you like and trust the man, but your trust of him does nothing for me, and my distrust of him does nothing for you.
So, there we have it. I won't sway your devoted opinion of him, and you won't sway mine. Last time I checked, we were both still free to make those judgments of him and free to express them. I won't attempt to quite yours, please don't attempt to quite mine. The best we can do at this point is agree to disagree.
I don't like progressive, liberal or socialist politics (again, my right) and I don't like his politics. I don't like liars, and I believe he is one. I don't like the majority of career politicians (in fact, I can't think of one on either side of the isle I do like) and he was one.
Lastly, I will say (for the last time I might add) that he disgraced many honorable men who fought and served with honor when he lied and painted them (at least the large majority of them) with a brush of rapist, baby killers, mutilators and murders.
You say you were there, and I have no reason to doubt you. If you were, you know there is always one crazy person who does vial things in the of war, but it is a very, very small number, and good men shouldn't be accused of such things for political gain. Something that was a fad at the time.
Now, I am through arguing with you over my beliefs. I have stated them clearly, and you have rejected them, each and every one. I believe that is you right, and unless you intend to refuse me my right to my opinions and beliefs, then we are done.
PS, Let's agree on one other thing. To all those who served with honor and dignity, let's say thank you, and may the truth be known that you were a good soldier in defense of your country at it's call to you. Thank you all, and God bless the men and women who wear America's military uniform with honor and pride.
GH1[:)]
That may help a bit.
Doug Reese
Man I sure opened up a can of worms here. Unfortunately I still don't know what to believe.
GH1[:)]
As I said earlier, a person might not like Kerry as a person, or his politics. Some do not like his post-war activities when it came to his anti-war stance, and what he said in front of congress in April 1971.
There are those who lie, and those who misremember. I don't pretend to know which of these are going on here, but it's clearly one or the other as the facts do not support much of what is being stated.
For now I will put Unfit for Command aside, and deal with statements made by dheffley, which I will attempt to address in the order they were made.
1. Band-aid Purple Hearts: Kerry, and many other Swiftees, received PHs for minor wounds. The same is true of guys in the Infantry. It wasn't unusual. And, as I mentioned, Kerry still has the shrapnel in his leg from his 2nd PH.
Bob Dole is another public figure who received a PH for a minor wound. And that PH (Dole's 1st) was self-inflicted. Feel free to look it up. Dole mentions it in his book.
2. Ear Necklaces: This has been mentioned a number of times. The problem is, I can't seem to find Kerry making such a statement. Perhaps I just missed it, but I did a Google search and came up empty.
And since Kerry (accordingly to dheffley) made this statement before congress, I looked up that speech. Here it is:
http://facultystaff.richmond.edu/~ebolt/history398/JohnKerrytestimony.html
Please read it. Perhaps I missed the part about the ear necklaces. If so, I apologize.
3. Kerry's 7 Months of Duty in the River: It was actually less than five months . . . more like 4 ? months. Not a big deal. It even gives Kerry more time in-country. . . but it isn't correct.
4. Throwing His Medals in the River: First of all, this is the first I ever heard about Kerry throwing anything in a river. It didn't happen.
But Kerry did throw away his ribbons (not in a river, though) and the medals of someone else. If you look at photos of Kerry from that week in April 1971, you will just see him wearing his ribbons. If he had his medals, perhaps he would have thrown them away, but he didn't, and threw away his ribbons.
5. Running after NVA through the Jungle: This was supposedly something Kerry said "on record" that several former seamen - supposedly "6 or 7 who had a history of being truthful" claimed Kerry was a liar.
Sorry, but this is flat out false.
If I am wrong, and it is "on record", then dheffley can pull up a link that shows us I am wrong.
As I stated earlier, the only thing Kerry did that is even remotely close to what dheffley states, occurred in the course of the Silver Star incident, Feb 28, 1969.
I was there for that incident, along with 24 other guys. Not a single one of us has disputed what Kerry and/or the Navy has said about what happened that day.
Other incidents for which there is some dispute (whether valid or not) do not involve Kerry "running through the jungle". And for that matter, none have "6 or 7" guys disputing what Kerry has said.
As the saying goes . . . . We are all entitled to our own set of opinions, but we are not entitled to our own set of facts.
And I repeat, if dheffley can come up with links that dispute what I have stated in this post (although I doubt any exists), then I will address them.
Doug Reese
Could it be possible that you 'misremember' exactly what happened in Feb. 1969 ? That was a long time ago. I was in Viet Nam at that time myself, and I don't remember everything that happened that year.
Kerry knew that after 3 PH's, you could go home, and that was his intention from the start, get the PH's and get home.
Just seeing him in pictures with Jane Fonda suggests to me that he cannot be trusted to tell the truth. Yes, unfit for command.
If the truth were known, he probably was not recommended for retention.
Thanks---Peabo
As for the photo "with" fonda, do you mean the one in a crowd of hundreds of people where he's a row or two back and several people over . . . sitting on the ground? Or, do you mean the photo that was photo shopped that had Kerry and fonda on a stage next to each other?
As for misrembering what happened the morning of February 28, 1969 along the banks of the Dong Cung Canal . . . . sorry, not a chance. It's fair to say everyone there that morning will never forget what happened.
Doug Reese
Surely you don't think he intended to make the Navy a career, do you?
As for the photo "with" fonda, do you mean the one in a crowd of hundreds of people where he's a row or two back and several people over . . . sitting on the ground? Or, do you mean the photo that was photo shopped that had Kerry and fonda on a stage next to each other?
As for misrembering what happened the morning of February 28, 1969 along the banks of the Dong Cung Canal . . . . sorry, not a chance. It's fair to say everyone there that morning will never forget what happened.
Doug Reese
Navy ---- career? Of course not. He just wanted the government to give him a free education. Still, in his military records somewhere, there is probably a form that states that he is not recommended for retention.
When he got orders to Viet Nam, the wheels started turning and the only 'out' that he had was to get his PH's.
How many others that you know of had a tour of only 4 - 5 months?
He used his service as a stepping stone to launch his political career.
Kerry is looking out for Kerry. Can you guess why he married Heinz ?
MONEY !!!
Just curious, how did you find this web site and this particular thread? Are you still so infatuated with Kerry that you google him every night and this thread just popped up ?
I'm not going to get into a pissing-contest with you.
My opinion of Kerry is apparently a lot different than yours, so we will just leave it at that.
Thanks---Peabo
Doug Reese
I don't care what Kerry did in country, or how he got his PHs, but when he tries to lie about what he did, because it finaly became fashonable to be a Viet Nam vet, just chaps my *. You that where there in the boonies know what I mean, the rest believe what they read, and don't know when to call BS. My company comander was CPT John Abrams, if anyone had the means to get bandaid PHs and further his career it was him, but he stayed in the field for two years, started as an LT platoon leader, didn't just do six months and take an admin job, he stayed in the field and got the job done.
I don't have any time for those who have suddenly decided that now, because of public aceptance, and for thier betterment, it's alright to be a Viet Nam hero. John McCain is a hero.
W.D.
He did not get a PH for that, but for something else later in the day.
I agree with what you say about McCain.
Doug Reese
I will not be able to get back online and do some looking until this weekend, but I will do my best to answer you by this weekend.
I will say this, and no offense is intended, but you say they are telling lies, and you were there. they were there too, and say they are telling the truth. You have to understand that WE have to make a decision of who to believe, and we don't know you are them, so we have to make a judgement.
By knowing Kerry has lied about this, I do not believe him. When you defend someone who has changed his story and been caught in lies, it doesn't speak well that we should believ you. I've heard more support for those you say are telling lies than for Kerry.
You obviously support him, but I am curious if it's support for the man or for his politics, or both.
Regards,
Danny
"Bandaid" PH's were given out when I was [Corpsman] with the 4th, then 9th Marines. When I went back I was with Navy team N5/delta (MACV team 64) you required a hospital stay of at least 24 hours to be eligible for the PH.
I believe the "24 hour" rule started very late '68/early '69..don't quote me on that, however. Best, Joe
If it was, thousands of guys would never have received a PH.
Doug
Hmm, I never heard of such a rule. It may well have existed, somewhere, as a particular unit's policy. However, a hospital stay, clearly, according to the regulations, is not required for a PH.
If it was, thousands of guys would never have received a PH.
Doug
Don't feel too badly, I'm sure a lot of people aren't aware of this little "tidbit" mentioned by me.
Mine is 2nd hand information, gleaned just before I went to the Delta. The Info was from USN medical corps doctors in Bethesda that served up in I corps, and were putting on a slide show for us prior to deployment in '69. Perhaps the reg. was local (1st MARDIV)..because they were referencing Khe Sanh, Camp Carroll, hills 861, Con Tien, etc.
Also, what you say happened is true. I'm only referencing a change in policy, (again, local policy?) not that it didn't exist.
I never heard of Kerry until then. Did not serve in his type of unit. I was TDY'd to a PBR unit (river patrol) deeper in the delta, and had nothing to do with swift boats. Swift boats sucked. They were noisy, poorly armed, and hot. Propeller-driven, I believe, which posed a host of problems. They needed deeper water, and performed best when there was no enemy present.
I do, however, recall the reaction among the boat crews when Kerry's testimony trickled back to us. Basically: "Huh?" I believe he was seeking glory for future political purposes, and I believe he had a huge JFK complex -- to the point of being spooky.
I was there in '72, and in-country for only a few months. PH rules were quite clear: you had to be injured as a direct result of enemy action, and you had to require medical attention. In two instances I racked up one of each, but not both at the same time. You had to have both to get a PH.
He never should have gotten as far in life as he did. I suppose the marriage helped.
Not sure if this helps or adds fuel. I saw John Kerry, on national t.v. during his campaign, say he was operating the boat when a sniper shot at them. Kerry said he turned the boat around, landed it and chased him through the jungle, caught him and killed him. I do not remember if Kerry said the sniper was a vc or a nva. Kerry did say he turned the boat around landed it, chased him though the jungle caught him and killed him.
That was Feb 28, 1969. The guy was a VC, as there weren't any NVA in the area. Anyway, he lived just a few yards away -- which is to say he was a local.
Doug Reese
When Kerry said this it sound, came across as, very very lame and sounded like something that was made up to make him look good but was not true. At least that is how it sounded to me.
Actually, Kerry never said that during the campaign. Others did, or something along the lines of what you posted, but Kerry didn't.
Having said that, it did, most certainly, happen. It wasn't at all made up.
Doug Reese
Michael R Caso