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M60 tanks in Nam?
11echo
Member Posts: 1,007 ✭✭
I'm watching that "jar-head" Ermey in "Lock and Load" and he is talking about the history of tanks. I was a "tanker" from 73 to 76 (served on both M60s and M551s) so I was interested in what he was saying. But some how he's got some info that there were M60s in Viet Nam. The only US tanks I heard of in Nam were M48s and M551s. Anybody that was there ever SEE any M60s?
Comments
But the tank was at a serious disadvantage in muddy terrain, and was not normally sent on operations unless we were dealing with fortified NVA/VC positions that were also close to a village or other civilian areas. If we were not close to a village or other civilian areas artillery would have been called in first, followed by air support if we were to far away from the nearest fire-base. During several heavy engagements with NVA regulars we did use both artillery and air-support.
In retrospect, you were far more likely to see a heavily armed but far lighter M113 in Vietnam then a M60.
You sure they weren't M48 tanks? ..rounded bellys on them with muzzle break on the very end of the main gun tube!?? ...M113 were troop transport vehicles, I know they were there.
Nope...I was with the 3rd armored division in Kirch-Gons Germany before I went to Vietnam, so I'm very familiar with the M60.
Well I was in the 3rd AD myself ("Swing'n Budingen"), but if you were at the "Rock" then you'd know a M60! ...I stand corrected, but there could have been too many M60s there(Nam)!!?
I only saw a dozen or so M60s in Vietnam so they were rare. But they were there. The terrain and climate probably had a lot to do with it, and the fact most M60s were on The Rock..[:D]
Curt
I was in the 2/8th Inf Mech 4th Div in the Central highlands. We used lots of M113 APC's and also had some M60 tanks. They were used a lot for highway security.
It was safer on top of the M113 than inside of it![V]
I was in the 2/8th Inf Mech 4th Div in the Central highlands. We used lots of M113 APC's and also had some M60 tanks. They were used a lot for highway security.
Hi Lefty.
By chance do you remember the unit number of the EVAC hospital on tropo hill in Pleiku? It was located directly behind several huge tropo scatter shields....Thanks in advance.
Well I was in the 3rd AD myself ("Swing'n Budingen"), but if you were at the "Rock" then you'd know a M60! ...I stand corrected, but there could have been too many M60s there(Nam)!!?
Off topic. but I was in Bud in the late 60's. "B" Troop
...And
Or Read " Praying For Slack" By Robert E Peavey. You will find John is in there too.
Just looked they Mention the M48A3. Know John was on a flame tank.
[:D] Sure enough brings back some memories, thanx. It's been awhile since I've been out that way.
Was talking to a German buddy a few months back, said he was trying to rent some of the motor pool bays. He is in a club that restores old military vehicles and displays them.
A lot of the old U.S. Kasernes in Hessen are still sitting vacant. Never been sold or put to other uses, for the most part. Makes a body wonder.
What years were you there? If you've mentioned it, I missed it.
Chuck
Probably one of the best times of my life! SO what part of the FRG are you in?
Was that Ranger Company still around when you were there? Must have been interesting if they were. We stole there mascot, a big farken Ram they had chained out in front of the billets across the street from the snack bar. And ate it at the 4th of July picnic. We almost went to war over that one. They finally figured out they were outnumbered 6 or 7 to one and stopped strutting around, being obnoxious and acting tough.
We are likely going to get scolded here soon, for being off topic.[:D]
I still have my pet Cactus.
Between Scout Crew Qualification, Tank Crew Qualification, Reforger, Graf, Wildflicken, Hoenfelds, details for Border Patrol, cross unit training (we even trained with the Brit's one year, those guys were certifiably nuts),various other TDY's, FTX's and whatnot, we stayed gone much of the year.
Having a chain of command, 3rd AD directly to the 12th Cav. had it's perks, also had it's down sides. We had a One Star, BG Gerrard (one of the good ones) who used to train with us. He was kind of a General Swarzkopf type on steroids, you most always heard him before you saw him.
I heard the new bunch, in the 70`s, got more civilized than we were, hope you still managed to have some fun.[:D]
Married a German girl, we've been together for over thirty years now. Polar opposites, go figure? I was third and fourth generation German (mostly) on both sides of the family and spoke some German when I got here. Things were easier for me than most.
Did you ever make it to the Drag races in Erlensee (Fliegerhorst)? I was part of that (organization). Pretty much what I did back then, when I was at home station.
People forget, back in the "60's, a typical Troop made about $150 a month. You had to dress in your class "A" Uniform to go out on pass. We were transitioning from an Occupying force (mostly) to a defense force (mostly). When we went out on maneuvers it was as much a show of force as it was training, for both sides of the Iron Curtain. We kept the vehicles uploaded with ammo.
Funny story, I looked down the loaders hatch one day and saw some troop scrubbing the rust, really vigorously, off of the primer on a 105 round with steel wool. I never knew until that day, that I could actually cover around 30 meters in three large bounds.[:D]
We had a mechanic (operating the tool trailer in Graf) pick up a dud 152mm main gun round (Sheridan M551) and was caught by the motor pool Sgt. using a powered wire brush on it! Was "pretty'n it up for a souvenir"! [:D]
It was probably Rhein Main Airbase where you went to the "Sound Center". Mainz Kastel was the big one, but was quit a drive.
To bad you missed the Drags, good times, it was at it's peak when you were there. They also had dirt track (Bernbach) outside of Gelnhausen.
I spent many a Saturday at the pistol and rifle range at Bernbach, in the warm months. One of the few places around with a five hundred meter range. There was a small group of us that did Bench shooting. I competed locally (with the Germans) pistol shooting. Though I didn't really enjoy it, too much politics and Beer, instead of shooting. Germans wanted to turn it into a mind game, instead of a skill.
One of my old Commanders had a pair of highly polished Brass casing, 105 MM rounds on either side of his desk, on lacquered wooden bases, with the projectile painted black and gold Armor emblems on the sides of the projectiles. Each had a brass plate attached to the wooden base, one said "Fire Power", the other said "Shock Effect". I always figured they were the cement filled HEP practice rounds, with the propellant removed. Some Troop was polishing the top and some of the black paint came off, he came running out to tell me and ask what to do. I looked at where he had rubbed and noticed the paint underneath was O.D. and saw some yellow letters. I got to laugh, this Captain was an in your face, alcoholic, I can picture somebody painting up a pair of live HEP rounds and giving them to him as a going away present. We evacuated half the Kaserne and called in EOD to dispose of them.
I was thinking about the M-60 Tank in Nam, people forget there weren't actually that many M-48's around. I sure don't know the exact number, but my guess would be less than 10,000 total, maybe much fewer.
I even remember seeing a picture of an M-60 hull (Distinctive horizontal wedge shape front, 105 MM gun) with five support rollers (normal M-48/gasoline powered configuration) and odd (M-48) fenders, M-60's have rounded fenders at the edge. M-60 models have three support rollers. They made an M-48 model with three support rollers, which was usually the diesel variety (I believe). there may have been diesel powered M-48's with five support rollers, I haven't been in every model ever produced.
Most every time there was an appropriation for an M-48 (or M-60) upgrade or a newer model, another company usually got the contract. The older model was re engineered or modified. The Army usually kept the prototypes, at near a million, 1960 dollars, a pop, some of the prototypes likely made it into service.
I remember hearing in the sixties about the tankers not being happy with the gasoline powered variety of the M-48. RPG's, mines and 350 gallons of gas didn't do well together.
It's probable there were M-60's delivered to Nam, (don't know how many or even if it happened for sure), as an interim solution and during the ramp up for the M-48 diesel model production (M-60's/Diesel were being produced in number, before the M48/diesel model was). Likely the older model M-60's with the older sight configuration, may have been sent to Nam (in case one got captured intact). They didn't start producing the diesel model M-48 until the late sixties sometime, the M-60 was being produced in the early sixties.
My time lines may be a little off, it has been a long time and the old brain is way over due for a good de-fragmentation.
Just a short logic tree, that will likely add fuel to the discussion.
A couple of maps 11echo may be interested in, the first is the Fulda Gap.
The second map is the Roman battle lines fron the 2nd Century A.D.
The red "X" marks the approximate location of B?dingen.
I always figured they'd fake civil unrest on the East side of the border, move in tanks, then the next wave and the next. Some Russian General once said "quantity has a quality all it's own".
Got to figure, first thing they'd do is run MIG's over, then bombers, maybe tactical missiles. A MIG could be there in minutes. Static ground to air, air defense, was always pretty feeble in Germany, it was pretty much a one shot deal in most cases, if it ever got off a shot. They really didn't put much money or effort into it, my guess is they figured it was a lost cause anyway. To many MIG's, to mnay flight paths. "Quantity has a quality all it's own."
Kirch G?ns was right out there on a high plateau, rolling hills classic tank country.
Don't know if you ever noticed or not where you were sitting, was on the wrong side of the pass, you were in front of the best defensive positions LOL. The troops on the border were going to get rolled over, then you would hopefully mix it up some, maybe slow it down a bit and then the plan was to use tactical nukes. The question was always where the nukes were going off, in front of you, behind you or on you? My guess is they were going to use tactical nukes in West Germany so they could say it was purely defensive. Maybe engineering nukes to close avenues of advance (likely behind you). Blow the bridges, behind you.
Between being with the Division scouts, pretty much perpetual maneuver and training out and about, and exploring on my motorcycle, I got a pretty good overview of the area. I had a girlfriend that lived about five minutes from the border, about an hours drive (driving like a German) from my place to hers.
One discussion that always generates large silences, was that many of the villages between you and border, had communist leanings and actually supported West Germany being absorbed by the East Germans, instead of the other way around. A wave of insurgency was likely before the MIG's ever appeared. Bader Meinhof and the Red Army faction, were just later manifestations of what had always been there, since the end of the WW II. Heck I still remember helping to load a buddy into an ambulance, in Frankfurt, after a car bomb went off at the Armed Forces gas station. Or going to eat breakfast one morning and discovering the Mess Hall was a pile of rubble (Abrams Complex Frankfurt). It didn't happen every day, but often enough to keep a person nervous. Probably a 15 second blurb on the news back in the states.
I spoke some German when I got here, learned some more fast. When I got out in the country some and mingled, I was shocked at how many times somebody would try to convert me or recruit me. I got tired of filling out incidence reports.
I always figured we were sacrificial goats. And not meant to really deter or delay them.
I had a guy call B.S. on another board when I told him in 68 when the Russians invaded Czechoslovakia, I was standing (right) on the border and watched a MIG fly right over my head at around fifty meters, flying East to West. My first thought was WOW. I still remember the spot report I called in, whoever was on the other end asked if I was sure it was a MIG, my answer was it had a big red star on the side, was painted green, looked just like the pictures from my aircraft I.D. classes, I doubt it was Israeli, it sure wasn't one of ours.
Found out later (over somebodies pocket radio) MIG's were making practice bomb runs on Munich. They squashed that news quick, heard it for an hour or two and then never heard about it again.
My guess is you were like many of the Troops of the time, lived in a fairly closed community and were treated like a mushroom. Kept in the dark and fed manure.
I always figured part of the reason for the Czech invasion, was to tie up troops and resources, to prevent them being used in Vietnam. Classic Sun Tzu.
I'm not saying I'm the sharpest needle in the sewing kit, but it took me about a year or so to figure it out. I always did seem to have a talent for noticing stuff that other people seemed to miss. I had my own opinions and sure didn't believe much of what I was told.
About 60 miles by road, from you to the border. I always figured by the time we got everything packed up and drove out the gate, they'd be there to meet us.
I always figured they'd fake civil unrest on the East side of the border, move in tanks, then the next wave and the next. Some Russian General once said "quantity has a quality all it's own".
Got to figure, first thing they'd do is run MIG's over, then bombers, maybe tactical missiles. A MIG could be there in minutes. Static ground to air, air defense, was always pretty feeble in Germany, it was pretty much a one shot deal in most cases, if it ever got off a shot. They really didn't put much money or effort into it, my guess is they figured it was a lost cause anyway. To many MIG's, to mnay flight paths. "Quantity has a quality all it's own."
Kirch G?ns was right out there on a high plateau, rolling hills classic tank country.
Don't know if you ever noticed or not where you were sitting, was on the wrong side of the pass, you were in front of the best defensive positions LOL. The troops on the border were going to get rolled over, then you would hopefully mix it up some, maybe slow it down a bit and then the plan was to use tactical nukes. The question was always where the nukes were going off, in front of you, behind you or on you? My guess is they were going to use tactical nukes in West Germany so they could say it was purely defensive. Maybe engineering nukes to close avenues of advance (likely behind you). Blow the bridges, behind you.
Between being with the Division scouts, pretty much perpetual maneuver and training out and about, and exploring on my motorcycle, I got a pretty good overview of the area. I had a girlfriend that lived about five minutes from the border, about an hours drive (driving like a German) from my place to hers.
One discussion that always generates large silences, was that many of the villages between you and border, had communist leanings and actually supported West Germany being absorbed by the East Germans, instead of the other way around. A wave of insurgency was likely before the MIG's ever appeared. Bader Meinhof and the Red Army faction, were just later manifestations of what had always been there, since the end of the WW II. Heck I still remember helping to load a buddy into an ambulance, in Frankfurt, after a car bomb went off at the Armed Forces gas station. Or going to eat breakfast one morning and discovering the Mess Hall was a pile of rubble (Abrams Complex Frankfurt). It didn't happen every day, but often enough to keep a person nervous. Probably a 15 second blurb on the news back in the states.
I spoke some German when I got here, learned some more fast. When I got out in the country some and mingled, I was shocked at how many times somebody would try to convert me or recruit me. I got tired of filling out incidence reports.
I always figured we were sacrificial goats. And not meant to really deter or delay them.
I had a guy call B.S. on another board when I told him in 68 when the Russians invaded Czechoslovakia, I was standing (right) on the border and watched a MIG fly right over my head at around fifty meters, flying East to West. My first thought was WOW. I still remember the spot report I called in, whoever was on the other end asked if I was sure it was a MIG, my answer was it had a big red star on the side, was painted green, looked just like the pictures from my aircraft I.D. classes, I doubt it was Israeli, it sure wasn't one of ours.
Found out later (over somebodies pocket radio) MIG's were making practice bomb runs on Munich. They squashed that news quick, heard it for an hour or two and then never heard about it again.
My guess is you were like many of the Troops of the time, lived in a fairly closed community and were treated like a mushroom. Kept in the dark and fed manure.
I always figured part of the reason for the Czech invasion, was to tie up troops and resources, to prevent them being used in Vietnam. Classic Sun Tzu.
I'm not saying I'm the sharpest needle in the sewing kit, but it took me about a year or so to figure it out. I always did seem to have a talent for noticing stuff that other people seemed to miss. I had my own opinions and sure didn't believe much of what I was told.
No question the guys on the rock and at the Ray Barracks in Friedberg were in place to just slow the Russians down for several days until NATO forces could be fully mobilized. That's why some units at Kirch Gons had Davey Crockett's, but they were stored at Koppern for safe keeping.
They moved the whole company out into the open, in company formation. And started a class on field sanitation or some other inane subject.
I look up over a sea of bored faces and see a Bear Bomber flying over the clearing low and slow.
Somebody had failed to notify the Russians before calling the alert. The fit had hit the shan and the Russians demanded flyovers to verify what the truck was going on.
90% of the troops, didn't have clue or were too bored to notice or too tired to care, the other 10% knew enough to keep their mouths shut.
No question the guys on the rock and at the Ray Barracks in Friedberg were in place to just slow the Russians down for several days until NATO forces could be fully mobilized. That's why some units at Kirch Gons had Davey Crockett's, but they were stored at Koppern for safe keeping.
Can you pick out the bunker in the photo of B?digen? Tip, right next to the LZ, I mean sports field.
On one Kaserene it was right next to or maybe under the Chapel.
I always wondered where they hid all the antenna's, I never did find any. I guess antenna's are easier to hide than bunkers LOL.
Another tip off was when they unloaded and cleared their weapons after leaving a building, not before they entered it. Somebody screwed that SOP up, dead give away.
quote:Originally posted by 70-101
No question the guys on the rock and at the Ray Barracks in Friedberg were in place to just slow the Russians down for several days until NATO forces could be fully mobilized. That's why some units at Kirch Gons had Davey Crockett's, but they were stored at Koppern for safe keeping.
Can you pick out the bunker in the photo of B?digen? Tip, right next to the LZ, I mean sports field.
On one Kaserene it was right next to or maybe under the Chapel.
I always wondered where they hid all the antenna's, I never did find any. I guess antenna's are easier to hide than bunkers LOL.
Another tip off was when they unloaded and cleared their weapons after leaving a building, not before they entered it. Somebody screwed that SOP up, dead give away.
Amazing thanks.
In another Kaserene, they had to take a part of the lid off for some reason. It was under a parking lot and just this side of huge. Or at least a lot deeper than you'd think, I didn't get a chance to make the tour. I remember thinking at the time, good spot, good drainage.
They played a shell game with the package anyway. Later they centralized it some.
You ever notice any 10th Group guys hanging around?
I never went on an active Easter Egg hunt, but occasionally a person would just kind of trip over it, a well maintained road on the way from nowhere, going no place. I found a remote site once, nobodies national uniform I've ever seen (king of reminded me of a subdued street car conductors uniform, no markings or patches), MP-5's and the guy looked uber competent. Knew I was coming before I got there, was standing in the street outside of the shack, in front of a well maintained gate and fence, in the rain, no overcoat, I could hear dogs barking in the distance.
Got to use a reverse logic tree. Either centralize storage and security, which makes it vulnerable and apparent. Or scatter it all over the country side, keep it quiet and keep it handy. Largely depended on the threat level. Got to think, bunkers all over this country, they are still finding them. Wouldn't it be odd if there were none at a Kaserene?
You ever trip across prepared fighting positions? Level shooting platform, Packed gravel base, usually with a berm in front. Marked by a stake with a number, often a cement pylon type marker. Usually a covered back way in and out. Brush trimmed in front of the position, but not too clean. Good fields of fire. I've tripped across those things by the hundreds in my travels, funny but many are still there and somebody is keeping the brush trimmed.
I am not a vet, and was in diapers when Tet was fought, but I find your stories very interesting.
Stop on over to General Discussion some time and say hello.
Loaf
They took everyones main gun firing pins away for awhile and left the tanks uploaded, 76 I think. I most always had a spare in my pocket anyway, most experienced M-60 tankers kept a spare handy, they tended to break at the tip on occasion. I doubt anybody turned in their spares.
Guess it was 76, in Graf, the range right next to 42 (forget the range number), watched a Sheridan burn. Driver should have got a medal, he managed to pull it out of line and away from the ammo point, before he bailed. I came back the next day for a look see and all that was left was a pile about a foot and a half tall. At least when a M-48 or an M-60 burned, there was something left after the fire.
Some yahoo threw a smoke grenade in the basement of your building, 68 sometime,just a prank I guess. They locked down the whole Kaserne, everybody back into their rooms. Nobody but NCO's, Officers and MP's allowed to move, locked and loaded. Moved a battalion of tanks out of Gelnhausen and Friedberg, pretty much surrounded B?dingen. Talk about a prank gone wrong.
They used to keep the tanks uploaded and then for awhile they'd keep the ammo stored separately. Even sometimes just MG ammo and no main gun rounds. I always figured it had to do with the threat level. Maybe it had to do with who had the football, or was just a part of the normal shell game they played on a fairly regular basis.
MudderChuck -
I am not a vet, and was in diapers when Tet was fought, but I find your stories very interesting.
Stop on over to General Discussion some time and say hello.
Loaf
Thanks for the invite, I rarely get tired of hearing the sound of my own voice.[:D] I've been checking out the boards some. Saw the 12th Cav Crest on this thread, thought I might find a friend.