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anti nerve gas pills

amsptcdsamsptcds Member Posts: 679
edited March 2008 in US Military Veteran Forum
any of you guys take them during the desert shield/storm fracass?
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Comments

  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    Yes...took mine for 39 days straight. No one ever told us that we were only supposed to take them for 14 days (I think)...maybe even less, I cannot remember now. It's probably part of what's wrong with us.
  • amsptcdsamsptcds Member Posts: 679
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by ECC
    Yes...took mine for 39 days straight. No one ever told us that we were only supposed to take them for 14 days (I think)...maybe even less, I cannot remember now. It's probably part of what's wrong with us.


    They didn't tell us that either. After that first night feeling like there was a little demon in my stomach, I told my troops to stop taking them. I had stomach nerve problems for long time after that. But I believe I saved out butts from worse.

    I have wondered about if there are any studies correlating those pills with Gulf War Syndrome.

    but no... why would they want to see if experimental pills might be the answer....???
  • codenamepaulcodenamepaul Member Posts: 2,931
    edited November -1
    Took them too for about a month. Was told I never was told that I was supposed to take them. When checking out of my unit. I noticed the pills were not entered either in my SRB or medical record. Was told again, you were never told to take them. I had written it in a letter to my wife the day I started and ended and copied down the name of the pills. I brought the letter to the C.O. and showed him and the flight surgeon. They entered it in my record.
  • amsptcdsamsptcds Member Posts: 679
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by codenamepaul
    Took them too for about a month. Was told I never was told that I was supposed to take them. When checking out of my unit. I noticed the pills were not entered either in my SRB or medical record. Was told again, you were never told to take them. I had written it in a letter to my wife the day I started and ended and copied down the name of the pills. I brought the letter to the C.O. and showed him and the flight surgeon. They entered it in my record.


    man... those "people". I kept my pills for proof in case it were ever necessary. Seems like I'm ok. Just a little nuts...

    Those pills were designed to slow down synaptic response.
    They were meant to counteract nerve agent, which speeds up synaptic reponse causing convulsions etc.
    But no one discussed what happens from simply taking something that works on the nervous system like that alone.

    I wouldn't be surprised if people who took a lot of them have problems including symptoms that imitate parkinsons in later life or oppositely MD. I think either could happen as a result of nerve damage dependent upon what cluster of nerves become affected.
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by amsptcds
    quote:Originally posted by codenamepaul
    Took them too for about a month. Was told I never was told that I was supposed to take them. When checking out of my unit. I noticed the pills were not entered either in my SRB or medical record. Was told again, you were never told to take them. I had written it in a letter to my wife the day I started and ended and copied down the name of the pills. I brought the letter to the C.O. and showed him and the flight surgeon. They entered it in my record.


    man... those "people". I kept my pills for proof in case it were ever necessary. Seems like I'm ok. Just a little nuts...

    Those pills were designed to slow down synaptic response.
    They were meant to counteract nerve agent, which speeds up synaptic reponse causing convulsions etc.
    But no one discussed what happens from simply taking something that works on the nervous system like that alone.

    I wouldn't be surprised if people who took a lot of them have problems including symptoms that imitate parkinsons in later life or oppositely MD. I think either could happen as a result of nerve damage dependent upon what cluster of nerves become affected.


    I've got all kinds of crap wrong with me...including heart problems that started two years ago...and SEVERE memory loss. I do not sleep at all. The list goes on and on. I went through the Persian Gulf Review years back and was recommended for 100% disability. I submitted the Dr's recommendations along with ALL of my medical records and the VA conveniently lost everything...said I had to start the whole process over again. I was not about to go through all that stuff again. This was just prior to the VA getting computerized, so there's no way to find those records.

    Forgot to mention...I'm only 35 years old.
  • amsptcdsamsptcds Member Posts: 679
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by ECC
    quote:Originally posted by amsptcds
    quote:Originally posted by codenamepaul
    Took them too for about a month. Was told I never was told that I was supposed to take them. When checking out of my unit. I noticed the pills were not entered either in my SRB or medical record. Was told again, you were never told to take them. I had written it in a letter to my wife the day I started and ended and copied down the name of the pills. I brought the letter to the C.O. and showed him and the flight surgeon. They entered it in my record.


    This is not good. Do you still have at least the letters sent to your wife metioning the pills?

    man... those "people". I kept my pills for proof in case it were ever necessary. Seems like I'm ok. Just a little nuts...

    Those pills were designed to slow down synaptic response.
    They were meant to counteract nerve agent, which speeds up synaptic reponse causing convulsions etc.
    But no one discussed what happens from simply taking something that works on the nervous system like that alone.

    I wouldn't be surprised if people who took a lot of them have problems including symptoms that imitate parkinsons in later life or oppositely MD. I think either could happen as a result of nerve damage dependent upon what cluster of nerves become affected.


    I've got all kinds of crap wrong with me...including heart problems that started two years ago...and SEVERE memory loss. I do not sleep at all. The list goes on and on. I went through the Persian Gulf Review years back and was recommended for 100% disability. I submitted the Dr's recommendations along with ALL of my medical records and the VA conveniently lost everything...said I had to start the whole process over again. I was not about to go through all that stuff again. This was just prior to the VA getting computerized, so there's no way to find those records.

    Forgot to mention...I'm only 35 years old.


    This is not good. Do you still have at least the letters sent to your wife metioning the pills?
  • GBDeveloperGBDeveloper Member Posts: 19 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Lack of sleep will cause memory problems and heart problems, so you might focus on that. It's possible the pills caused an ulcer.
    If your doctor can't figure out what's wrong or is happy to treat it with medication instead of continuing tests to determine the problem then you are seeing the wrong doctor. Also stop drinking and smoking completely for two weeks to see if you feel better. Healthy people can drink and smoke, so it's not to determine whether drinking or smoking causes the problem but would help expose what area the problem could be coming from since tobacco and drinking affect different parts of the body. If completely stopping drinking/smoking (no cheating for 2 weeks) doesn't give you a 100% improvement, then you can possibly rule out some kinds of obvious health problems and focus more on the less likely things.
  • amsptcdsamsptcds Member Posts: 679
    edited November -1
    That sounds like good advice to me.
  • JorgeJorge Member Posts: 10,656
    edited November -1
    2 PAM-Chloride/Atropine taken by PO? Didn't know such concoction, or it's equivalent, was available. Where can I learn more?
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Polite Psycho
    2 PAM-Chloride/Atropine taken by PO? Didn't know such concoction, or it's equivalent, was available. Where can I learn more?


    From my understanding, what we took was supposed to be a mild dose of nerve agent, to hopefully help us build up an immunity to nerve agent. I cannot remember exactly what they were called...might have been pp pills, or pvp...I really cannot remember now. I saved some, but they have since been lost in our numerous moves.
  • JorgeJorge Member Posts: 10,656
    edited November -1
    Hey Eric, how are you? Greetings from the West Indies!!!

    As far as I know, atropine in sustained doses has a wicked side effect, namely an increase in oxygen consumption on myocardial (heart) cells. Was it atropine or something else?
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Polite Psycho
    Hey Eric, how are you? Greetings from the West Indies!!!

    As far as I know, atropine in sustained doses has a wicked side effect, namely an increase in oxygen consumption on myocardial (heart) cells. Was it atropine or something else?


    Hanging in there...How about yourself? I'm glad to see you checking in here again...seemed as if you were gone for a while.

    I do not believe it was atropine. We had atropine injectors to keep us fighting in the event we were exposed to nerve agent. Every soldier there kept their syringes in a pouch on the case for our gask masks. I had a couple of those that I hung on to for a while as well...they too have been lost over the years.

    On second thought, I believe our injectors were called antropine...not atropine.
  • One shotOne shot Member Posts: 1,064
    edited November -1
    Took mine as told and also kept a few. Have memory problems, Digestive Problems, Don't sleep well, vary short tempered, daughter was born with a hole in the heart.
  • amsptcdsamsptcds Member Posts: 679
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by ECC
    quote:Originally posted by Polite Psycho
    Hey Eric, how are you? Greetings from the West Indies!!!

    As far as I know, atropine in sustained doses has a wicked side effect, namely an increase in oxygen consumption on myocardial (heart) cells. Was it atropine or something else?


    Hanging in there...How about yourself? I'm glad to see you checking in here again...seemed as if you were gone for a while.

    I do not believe it was atropine. We had atropine injectors to keep us fighting in the event we were exposed to nerve agent. Every soldier there kept their syringes in a pouch on the case for our gask masks. I had a couple of those that I hung on to for a while as well...they too have been lost over the years.

    On second thought, I believe our injectors were called antropine...not atropine.


    need a giggle?

    One of my staffsergeants stabbed himeslf with one when the ship pitched while he was showing his section how to use them...
  • wanted manwanted man Member Posts: 3,276
    edited November -1
    The pills WERE NOT Atropine, they were a chemical combination (part amphetamine), ALLEDGEDLY designed to allow your body to quickly and effectively USE atropine, if injected, thereby "speeding" or flushing nerve agent from your body, if you were to be exposed. The immediate, short-term effect seemed to be on par with doing a couple lines of No-Doze, etc, or so I was told. I personally chose never to take them and told my troops (in private) that I would cover for them if they chose not to take them as well. Cheap speed with nasty, long-term side effects, I would say (and suspected as much at the the time)
  • One shotOne shot Member Posts: 1,064
    edited November -1
    Correct, the pills were not antropine or 2-pam chloride. They had another name for them. All 2-pam cloride and antropine do are clear up the connection in the nerve endings so they work properly after exposure to nerve ageants. This is a vary simple explination but the best I can do now without the aid of my referance material.
  • sarge_3adsarge_3ad Member Posts: 8,387 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I took maybe only 3 of those pills. The rest went out the window one at a time when we were told to take a dose. I don't remember what they were called either. I to have memory problems, and sleep apnea. My biggest complaint though is joint pain.
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by sarge_3ad
    I took maybe only 3 of those pills. The rest went out the window one at a time when we were told to take a dose. I don't remember what they were called either. I to have memory problems, and sleep apnea. My biggest complaint though is joint pain.


    I hear you...I have so much joint pain that I feel like I must be at least 60...but my old man gets around better than I do.
  • One shotOne shot Member Posts: 1,064
    edited November -1
    I have to go to the doctor soon for a bone density test. They are worried about my spine. I say, let them worry cause I ain't goint to let anything beat me. I have no back problems as of yet, but the knees are a another story. I can not remember a vet from any era that has not had knee problems. Damn all that running[:D]
  • amsptcdsamsptcds Member Posts: 679
    edited November -1
    THIS IS WHAT YOU TOOK


    I have that packet right here:

    21 tablets
    pyridostigmine bromide usp 30mg
    (Nerve Agent Pre-Treatment tablets)
    NSN 6505-01-178-7903
    Directions for use:
    1.Commence taking onlywhen ordered by your commander.
    2.Take one every 8 hours
    3.It is dangerous to exceed the stated dose.

    Duphar BV Amsterdam Holland

    That's all that is written on the package.
  • codenamepaulcodenamepaul Member Posts: 2,931
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by amsptcds
    THIS IS WHAT YOU TOOK


    I have that packet right here:

    21 tablets
    pyridostigmine bromide usp 30mg
    (Nerve Agent Pre-Treatment tablets)
    NSN 6505-01-178-7903
    Directions for use:
    1.Commence taking onlywhen ordered by your commander.
    2.Take one every 8 hours
    3.It is dangerous to exceed the stated dose.

    Duphar BV Amsterdam Holland

    That's all that is written on the package.


    10X. Dug the letter out last night to post the name. You got it.
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    Thanks for the info...last night I was thinking they may have been PB pills.
  • amsptcdsamsptcds Member Posts: 679
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by ECC
    Thanks for the info...last night I was thinking they may have been PB pills.


    check out those idiot instructions.

    But the key here is that the NSN is on the package. Makes them harder to deny.
  • One shotOne shot Member Posts: 1,064
    edited November -1
  • tokerboytokerboy Member Posts: 17
    edited November -1
    They were called "psp" pills.I never took them. We were told not to take them unless ordered. Then, one day the MP's came around collecting them from everyone. By the way, B co 7/159th AVN RGMT. This is the first time iI have ever gone to a forum specifically for the Storm.
  • tokerboytokerboy Member Posts: 17
    edited November -1
    I also must mention. In the first year after returning home, I came down with a mystery ilness that usually lasted 3-5 days. Symptoms included: severe(I mean the worst) body aches. High fever. Severe kidney pain. Severe joint pain that lasted after all the others for about a week. I would get these symptoms about every 90 days with them getting worse each time they appeared. The last time the symptoms appeared was about 18 months after my return and they were the worst ever. I went the doctor twicw duting these episodes. Ran blood tests and then told me I didn't have any virus or anything that they could find. Finally gave up.
  • One shotOne shot Member Posts: 1,064
    edited November -1
    I have to go back to the VA here in the near future. Mood swings, digestive problems, headaches, joint pain, and a few others. Civilian doctors have no idea and just want to suck as much money out of me as they can get. Decided it was time to give the local VA a shot.
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by One shot
    I have to go back to the VA here in the near future. Mood swings, digestive problems, headaches, joint pain, and a few others. Civilian doctors have no idea and just want to suck as much money out of me as they can get. Decided it was time to give the local VA a shot.


    Good luck. The VA in DC is horrible. The one in Martinsburg is a LOT better, but you still have to PUSH to have anything done...and to get them to give you any information...and as usual, they want to treat everything with pills.
  • sarge_3adsarge_3ad Member Posts: 8,387 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I go to the VA in Des Moines, Iowa. Was there this morning to get a cortozone shot in the wrist. I've never had a complaint about their service. In fact, I thing I get pretty good treatment and service.
  • match308match308 Member Posts: 9
    edited November -1
    The Meds were Pyrostigmine Bromide. A drug used for years to treat Myasthenia Gravis. It was never suspected of causing the strange array of problems by itself. But it was never studied in replication of all the different exposures we experienced, (oil resin rain, deet, heat stress, 25mm ammo uranium, etc.).

    PS-Does anyone else get violently ill after smelling Avon Skin so soft?
  • One shotOne shot Member Posts: 1,064
    edited November -1
    The Walla Walla VA Hospital has been great so far. The population is somewhat small here as aposed to other places. I have been pleased with thier service. We also have one hell of a local VA rep that will go the distance when needed.
  • Red223Red223 Member Posts: 7,946
    edited November -1
    Y'all know the big needle ya got shoved in your backdoor prior to going to the Gulf contained mercury right?

    The Gobulin shot contained thimerosal (mercury):


    http://www.fda.gov/Cber/vaccine/thimerosal.htm

    "theoretical potential for neurotoxicity of even low levels "


    They say even the flu shot contains mercury...but that big horse needle you got shoved in your keister was for a very large dose of vaccine containing mercury.

    And the say you shouldn't eat Salmon from the Great Lakes....why not...Uncle Sam shoves mercury up your.......

    That globulin shot was recalled and is no longer given to service members:

    http://www.tricare.osd.mil/policy/fy96/hav54.html


    I lied and never got it. They ran out and told me to get the shot over there. When I got there I told them I already got it. Lucky for me....it was recalled.



    ""In June, 1996, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) requested that manufacturers test lots of IG for the presence of Hepatitis C virus (HCV) RNA, using advanced polymerase chain reaction (PCR2) methods. Centeon, the primary supplier of IG used by DoD, initiated a voluntary recall of its product rather than conduct the tests. ""

    You got Hepatitis C and mercury injected in you Gulf War vets.
  • cyhorseshoeingcyhorseshoeing Member Posts: 3 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    i took the pills and every other damn shot that a pfc has to take. now i am 33 years old and poop 15 times a day, i have cramps that feel like a knife in my gut all day. and dont worry that hasnt messed up my mind being so messed up.
  • match308match308 Member Posts: 9
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by cyhorseshoeing
    i took the pills and every other damn shot that a pfc has to take. now i am 33 years old and poop 15 times a day, i have cramps that feel like a knife in my gut all day. and dont worry that hasnt messed up my mind being so messed up.


    Have you been worked up to rule out Chrohn's disease or Irritable bowel?
  • cyhorseshoeingcyhorseshoeing Member Posts: 3 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    the va has given me a ton of tests including upper and lower gi. checked for krons(sp)and everything else. they rated me at 30% but i have hardly worked in the last few years. I think my rating should be higher.
  • match308match308 Member Posts: 9
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by cyhorseshoeing
    the va has given me a ton of tests including upper and lower gi. checked for krons(sp)and everything else. they rated me at 30% but i have hardly worked in the last few years. I think my rating should be higher.


    May be worth an inquiry to your Liason (Am. Legion ), or even a letter to you Congressional Rep. Good luck w/ it.
  • Rack OpsRack Ops Member Posts: 18,597 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I was given a pack of Nerve Agent pills and a pack of Cipro before crossing the berm into Iraq. I took the advice of some Desert Storm vets and never took them.

    I figured if we were gassed I'd be screwed anyways......
  • amsptcdsamsptcds Member Posts: 679
    edited November -1
    I hope that we don't give up on this particular topic. Maybe future vets that make it into gunbroker will bump into it and get a an idea of what may have affected them.
  • jkingrphjkingrph Member Posts: 3 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Drug you took was pyridostigmine, commonly used to treat myasthenia gravis, a condition that is a motor disorder characterized by muscle fatigue, caused by antibodies to acetylcholine receptors in neuromuscular juctions, and a decrease in receptor sites for actylcholine. Basically the condition hinders the passage of nervous impulses therefore not allowing the muscle to function.

    Most of the nerve gasses are basically superpotent insectides,ie cholineesterace inhibitors, which cause over stimulation of nerves.

    Cannot readily find reference as to what pridostigmine does, but my guess is it probably occupies receptor then the nerve agent would attach and stimulate.

    Again cannot find reference as to what it would do in a pertson not suffering myasthenia gravis.

    JJk RPh
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    I think the problems with us are from a cocktail of things, and it would be very hard for anyone to pin it down as to what. We were exposed to so much.

    I do know if you keep on the VA, and keep putting in for re-evaluation that eventually you will get to a 100% rating.

    I was medically discharged 1 year after returning from desert storm. The VA started me at a 10% rating. I kept putting in for re-evaluation and sometimes they would raise it others they wouldn't. But after years of fighting them I finally got my 100% about 2 years ago. I have a list of about 40 things that I am rated for, rangeing from bone & joint problems to "UNDIAGNOSED ILLNESES". (And they truely do call "Gulf War Illness""Undiagnosed Illnesses".

    The best advice I can give anyone is: List every little thing you ever had wrong with you while you were in the service. I don't care if it was a hang-nail, list it. That is what my represenitive from AM-VETS told me. He is known as one of the best in the country in helping VETS get their benifits from the VA. (in fact he was insrumental in helping the guys from nam to start getting benifits for agent-orange) Also support your claim with all documentation. Order your 201 filesto show were you were in the gulf. (mine were suprising: you here about government papers having been blacked out in sections: mine had just this very thing. Most of the page would be fine but a paragraph in the middle would be blacked out for some reason.) If you have you shot records, that too is a big help. (there were 750,000 shot records lost from the gulf war)

    If any one would like some help with there claims feel free to contact me and I can tell you what was done on mine. I have a file cabnet full of my papers and such from my years of fighting the VA on my claim. I can also help get you in touch with the guy from AM-VETS who helped me with mine to get advise.
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