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quote:Originally posted by Rack Ops
I can't blame the "good folks" in California for their gun laws...and good folks are out there.
To call them cowards is hypocrisy. Every damned one of us lives under the yolk of unconstitutional law....Crowing about the "freedom" where we live is no better than the "My turd is better than your turd" argument that makes modern politics so noxious.
For those Californians who believe the 2nd Amendment means what it says, I welcome them. For those who would foist tyranny upon us...to hell with them.
Exactly, Rack.
Meet individuals where they are, support that which you agree with.
Well said.
Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.
quote:Originally posted by Rockatansky
quote:Originally posted by artherd
Now, if you'll excuse me, our Foundation is busy getting the Heller decision incorporated under the 9th circuit. (if the 9th incorporates, all others incorporate...)
That's right, an adjudicated 2A Individual Right will directly apply in CA and in all other states, for the first time - ever. Oral Args are set for 01-15-2009 at 1:30PM in SF, and I invite anyone who gives a toot to come and witness this historic day.
Is this a joke of some sort?
No, it's called REAL WORK IN THE REAL WORLD to regain the ground that has been lost.
No, it doesn't fit your fantasy of taking back the Second by force of arms, it is something that actually has impact.
You were asked, repeatedly, what you specifically and personally have done, what effort beyond being an internet tough guy you have made and you had NOTHING.
But you are more then willing to try, and fail, to mock those doing REAL WORK.
You talk the talk online but when it comes to 'WHAT HAVE YOU DONE' you have nothing and resort to snide comments, evasions and blustering bravado.
Face it, your a Democrat.
quote:Originally posted by jpwolf
I was 24 in '94 kestryll. My awakening as to the true meaning began around the age 30. Heck, they didn't even teach Civics anymore when I came through the indoctrination system.
I think most of my early life I just thought that rkba just meant we could have guns, and I had guns, so what's the big deal? You know? I bought my first gun (shotgun) at age 14 at the hardware store by myself.
I fell for the "it's for your own safety" crap as one infringement after another was put in place. Never knew anything about '34, '68, '86 and '94 just seemed stupid to me as I could still get what I always believed was the only thing available to us, it just had to have a thumbhole and various other stupid hoops. The gravity of it didn't hit me for many years.
Now I understand the boiling frog tactic and how important it is to put things back the way the founders intended. The govt is supposed to fear us, not the other way around. Case in point:
first bailout package 299/300 correspondences to D.C. expressed opposition to it. What happened? They gave 99.6% of America the one finger wave.
Okay, 24, that's not too bad.
When it passed, or more on a more pertinent level in 2000 when you realized what was being done to our rights how did you react to the ban?
Anger? Frustration? Betrayed? Concern?
Out of those feelings what action did you decide on and then take?
Where did you begin your involvement in 2A rights and what form does it take today?
Again, I'm not asking to belittle or anything I want to see what the progression was and how you feel you are making an active difference today.
quote:Originally posted by Rockatansky
Jp, do you not understand that the question of what have you done to prevent '94 AWB is nothing else but desperation?
You know, it is a widely held and agreed on concept that we judge the world and the actions of others based on our own example.
In other words we expect other to act as we would act ourselves.
Your presupposition of my intent speaks volumes about you and you're likely not aware of it at all.
See, I would not have a problem with these calgunners IF they came here seeking peace and understanding, but instead they marched in demanding something from everyone else. This is the best of them, imagine what the rest look like?
Ahhh, so as long as people act like good little boys and girls kowtowing to your awesomeness you're okay with that. But dare to have a backbone and NOT hold all that you say as gospel and suddenly there's a problem.
Sounds an awful lot like the Government you claim to oppose.
They are not any part of CA "gun owners" as much as they want to be, they are nothing but loud mouths, that they so quick to label everyone else who don't conform to their ideas (need I go into psychology of this paradox?).
One way or another, I am just warning you, if you can do better that I could -- awesome. Maybe there's even some hope. But, imo, it is a long shot, a very long one.
Frankly, you've shown yourself to be incapable of rational discourse, unable to answer basic questions and prone to resort to insult when you have nothing valid to say.
I've asked you direct questions and you can not stand up and answer them, and you expect me to believe that you will stand up and be counted when they finally decide to come for our firearms?
Sorry, not buying it.
Kestryll I dont think this was our intent when some of us came over here (your last few posts). I think we need to band together not cut down on eachother. This could be said to some of the C.A.'s as well. We need to think about the Big Picture that is going to drive us all to the wall and not divide our forces. I know its a pipe dream but thats what I belive needs to happen.
quote:Originally posted by Deadred707
Kestryll I dont think this was our intent when some of us came over here (your last few posts). I think we need to band together not cut down on each other. This could be said to some of the C.A.'s as well. We need to think about the Big Picture that is going to drive us all to the wall and not divide our forces. I know its a pipe dream but thats what I belive needs to happen.
My intent was civil discourse.
I attempted this and was met with snide remarks, insults and childish evasions. Granted this was almost entirely by one member but the blatant attempt at division is evident.
No matter what our differences are on smaller issues we ALL share a common goal, the complete return of our 2A rights.
Unfortunately this will be a hard fight given that we tend to factionalize ourselves more then the Bradys could ever hope to do.
So, in your view, you have "imported" a few rifles by pretty much finding a loop hole in existing law (rather than working on repealing a bad law), and that's about it.
If 100,000+ is 'a few' and changing enforcement of existing law on a statewide scale dosen't mean anything to you, then I think we're done here.
quote:As far as Lockyer's letter, it's pretty much a joke.
Care to elaborate?
quote:No laws have been challenged, no propositions suggested, no work whatsoever. Only more gun control enacted. Do you have any idea why?
Did you read the last link? AB2728 was *written by one of our attorneys* and it is now existing law.
I suppose that the great state of Georgia does not technically support the Second, but our state definitely does not attack it. There are no idiotic infringements on our rights other than the requirement of a state-issued carry permit.
I was 40 when the 1994 Omnibus Crime Bill was enacted. I mailed numerous letters and made many phone calls then, as I do now. Our (at that time) Democrat senator - Sam Nunn, voted for it; the Republican - Paul Coverdell, voted against. My US Representative at that time was a gentleman by the name of Bob Barr. Not only did he vote against it, he was a member of the large group who insisted that the "sunset clause" be attached to the bill, without which it would have been blocked. Incidentally, Mr Barr also wanted a sunset clause attached to the Patriot Act, but was unsuccessful on that one.
To you California guys - yes, I would most definitely move out of an area that passed the type of draconian restrictions on citizens' rights that yours does. I do not choose to live in an area that is not comprised of like-minded folks. I moved away from the neighborhood I had lived in for 30 years when the Black Plague moved in and turned it into a crime-ridden war zone, and I will do it again as necessary, including leaving the state if need be. Decent folks are leaving the eastern and western areas of this country and moving to the middle. Judging by the influx of Mexicans and Blacks here, with the accompanying degradation of the general societal infrastructure that comes with their becoming the majority voting block, I may be soon doing the same.
Those of us who still believe in freedom, rather than urbanization, tribalism, and statism/collectivism will need to be in an area where we can join together en masse if we want to be successful.
artherd, many here at GB do not practice PC'ness. He is saying exactly what you think he is, and merely stating facts as he PERSONALLY lived through them. Very simple. Are you suggesting you haven't seen middle class neighborhoods go down the tube when taken over by criminals?
I myself have lived in both, and there most certainly was a difference in behaviour.
Acceptance, PC'ness if you will, appears to be, and has for decades, one of the roots of Cali's problems. Group think. Being non-PC requires one to not be afraid to stand out, be an individual. Anyway, I'm rambling...time to move on...
Originally posted by Kestryll
Okay, 24, that's not too bad.
When it passed, or more on a more pertinent level in 2000 when you realized what was being done to our rights how did you react to the ban? I found it to be an egregious act by a corrupt government that had no respect for the limits placed upon it by the BOR, but still believed (duh!) that working in the system and getting involved could make a difference
Anger? Frustration? Betrayed? Concern?
Out of those feelings what action did you decide on and then take?
Where did you begin your involvement in 2A rights and what form does it take today?I became much more politically active and truly believed much more than ever before that repubs were the answer (Again, duh!)
Now, 8 years have passed. I have developed zero faith in the system as it stands (federal). Witness November's election, one and only one man had the record and the knowledge to produce REAL change!(5 minutes research would prove this to all but most idiotic) Witness the recent bailout. We have zero control of our federal govt. There is but little hope to effect change at the state level.
Again, I'm not asking to belittle or anything I want to see what the progression was and how you feel you are making an active difference today.
quote:Originally posted by artherd
Now, if you'll excuse me, our Foundation is busy getting the Heller decision incorporated under the 9th circuit. (if the 9th incorporates, all others incorporate...)
That's right, an adjudicated 2A Individual Right will directly apply in CA and in all other states, for the first time - ever. Oral Args are set for 01-15-2009 at 1:30PM in SF, and I invite anyone who gives a toot to come and witness this historic day.
Have you read Heller???? It left as much room as a government could ask for to enact "reasonable" controls.[xx(]
Comments
I can't blame the "good folks" in California for their gun laws...and good folks are out there.
To call them cowards is hypocrisy. Every damned one of us lives under the yolk of unconstitutional law....Crowing about the "freedom" where we live is no better than the "My turd is better than your turd" argument that makes modern politics so noxious.
For those Californians who believe the 2nd Amendment means what it says, I welcome them. For those who would foist tyranny upon us...to hell with them.
Exactly, Rack.
Meet individuals where they are, support that which you agree with.
Well said.
Brad Steele
This isn't even the same ball park, R.O., not even the same sport. I hope I don't need to explain.
If you say so.
quote:Originally posted by artherd
Now, if you'll excuse me, our Foundation is busy getting the Heller decision incorporated under the 9th circuit. (if the 9th incorporates, all others incorporate...)
That's right, an adjudicated 2A Individual Right will directly apply in CA and in all other states, for the first time - ever. Oral Args are set for 01-15-2009 at 1:30PM in SF, and I invite anyone who gives a toot to come and witness this historic day.
Is this a joke of some sort?
No, it's called REAL WORK IN THE REAL WORLD to regain the ground that has been lost.
No, it doesn't fit your fantasy of taking back the Second by force of arms, it is something that actually has impact.
You were asked, repeatedly, what you specifically and personally have done, what effort beyond being an internet tough guy you have made and you had NOTHING.
But you are more then willing to try, and fail, to mock those doing REAL WORK.
You talk the talk online but when it comes to 'WHAT HAVE YOU DONE' you have nothing and resort to snide comments, evasions and blustering bravado.
Face it, your a Democrat.
I was 24 in '94 kestryll. My awakening as to the true meaning began around the age 30. Heck, they didn't even teach Civics anymore when I came through the indoctrination system.
I think most of my early life I just thought that rkba just meant we could have guns, and I had guns, so what's the big deal? You know? I bought my first gun (shotgun) at age 14 at the hardware store by myself.
I fell for the "it's for your own safety" crap as one infringement after another was put in place. Never knew anything about '34, '68, '86 and '94 just seemed stupid to me as I could still get what I always believed was the only thing available to us, it just had to have a thumbhole and various other stupid hoops. The gravity of it didn't hit me for many years.
Now I understand the boiling frog tactic and how important it is to put things back the way the founders intended. The govt is supposed to fear us, not the other way around. Case in point:
first bailout package 299/300 correspondences to D.C. expressed opposition to it. What happened? They gave 99.6% of America the one finger wave.
Okay, 24, that's not too bad.
When it passed, or more on a more pertinent level in 2000 when you realized what was being done to our rights how did you react to the ban?
Anger? Frustration? Betrayed? Concern?
Out of those feelings what action did you decide on and then take?
Where did you begin your involvement in 2A rights and what form does it take today?
Again, I'm not asking to belittle or anything I want to see what the progression was and how you feel you are making an active difference today.
Jp, do you not understand that the question of what have you done to prevent '94 AWB is nothing else but desperation?
You know, it is a widely held and agreed on concept that we judge the world and the actions of others based on our own example.
In other words we expect other to act as we would act ourselves.
Your presupposition of my intent speaks volumes about you and you're likely not aware of it at all.
See, I would not have a problem with these calgunners IF they came here seeking peace and understanding, but instead they marched in demanding something from everyone else. This is the best of them, imagine what the rest look like?
Ahhh, so as long as people act like good little boys and girls kowtowing to your awesomeness you're okay with that. But dare to have a backbone and NOT hold all that you say as gospel and suddenly there's a problem.
Sounds an awful lot like the Government you claim to oppose.
They are not any part of CA "gun owners" as much as they want to be, they are nothing but loud mouths, that they so quick to label everyone else who don't conform to their ideas (need I go into psychology of this paradox?).
One way or another, I am just warning you, if you can do better that I could -- awesome. Maybe there's even some hope. But, imo, it is a long shot, a very long one.
Frankly, you've shown yourself to be incapable of rational discourse, unable to answer basic questions and prone to resort to insult when you have nothing valid to say.
I've asked you direct questions and you can not stand up and answer them, and you expect me to believe that you will stand up and be counted when they finally decide to come for our firearms?
Sorry, not buying it.
Kestryll I dont think this was our intent when some of us came over here (your last few posts). I think we need to band together not cut down on each other. This could be said to some of the C.A.'s as well. We need to think about the Big Picture that is going to drive us all to the wall and not divide our forces. I know its a pipe dream but thats what I belive needs to happen.
My intent was civil discourse.
I attempted this and was met with snide remarks, insults and childish evasions. Granted this was almost entirely by one member but the blatant attempt at division is evident.
No matter what our differences are on smaller issues we ALL share a common goal, the complete return of our 2A rights.
Unfortunately this will be a hard fight given that we tend to factionalize ourselves more then the Bradys could ever hope to do.
If I were a resident of the PRK, I would do just as I do now;
Exercise my RTKBA as the Founders intended. Period.[;)]
So, in your view, you have "imported" a few rifles by pretty much finding a loop hole in existing law (rather than working on repealing a bad law), and that's about it.
If 100,000+ is 'a few' and changing enforcement of existing law on a statewide scale dosen't mean anything to you, then I think we're done here.
quote:As far as Lockyer's letter, it's pretty much a joke.
Care to elaborate?
quote:No laws have been challenged, no propositions suggested, no work whatsoever. Only more gun control enacted. Do you have any idea why?
Did you read the last link? AB2728 was *written by one of our attorneys* and it is now existing law.
Did you even read the Calguns Foundation link earlier? http://calgunsfoundation.org/main/index.php/news/1-latest-news/59-nordykeoralarguments
quote:Originally posted by Rockatansky
Is this a joke of some sort?
I was 40 when the 1994 Omnibus Crime Bill was enacted. I mailed numerous letters and made many phone calls then, as I do now. Our (at that time) Democrat senator - Sam Nunn, voted for it; the Republican - Paul Coverdell, voted against. My US Representative at that time was a gentleman by the name of Bob Barr. Not only did he vote against it, he was a member of the large group who insisted that the "sunset clause" be attached to the bill, without which it would have been blocked. Incidentally, Mr Barr also wanted a sunset clause attached to the Patriot Act, but was unsuccessful on that one.
To you California guys - yes, I would most definitely move out of an area that passed the type of draconian restrictions on citizens' rights that yours does. I do not choose to live in an area that is not comprised of like-minded folks. I moved away from the neighborhood I had lived in for 30 years when the Black Plague moved in and turned it into a crime-ridden war zone, and I will do it again as necessary, including leaving the state if need be. Decent folks are leaving the eastern and western areas of this country and moving to the middle. Judging by the influx of Mexicans and Blacks here, with the accompanying degradation of the general societal infrastructure that comes with their becoming the majority voting block, I may be soon doing the same.
Those of us who still believe in freedom, rather than urbanization, tribalism, and statism/collectivism will need to be in an area where we can join together en masse if we want to be successful.
Are you seriously saying what I think you're saying?
I myself have lived in both, and there most certainly was a difference in behaviour.
Acceptance, PC'ness if you will, appears to be, and has for decades, one of the roots of Cali's problems. Group think. Being non-PC requires one to not be afraid to stand out, be an individual. Anyway, I'm rambling...time to move on...
Okay, 24, that's not too bad.
When it passed, or more on a more pertinent level in 2000 when you realized what was being done to our rights how did you react to the ban? I found it to be an egregious act by a corrupt government that had no respect for the limits placed upon it by the BOR, but still believed (duh!) that working in the system and getting involved could make a difference
Anger? Frustration? Betrayed? Concern?
Out of those feelings what action did you decide on and then take?
Where did you begin your involvement in 2A rights and what form does it take today?I became much more politically active and truly believed much more than ever before that repubs were the answer (Again, duh!)
Now, 8 years have passed. I have developed zero faith in the system as it stands (federal). Witness November's election, one and only one man had the record and the knowledge to produce REAL change!(5 minutes research would prove this to all but most idiotic) Witness the recent bailout. We have zero control of our federal govt. There is but little hope to effect change at the state level.
Again, I'm not asking to belittle or anything I want to see what the progression was and how you feel you are making an active difference today.
Now, if you'll excuse me, our Foundation is busy getting the Heller decision incorporated under the 9th circuit. (if the 9th incorporates, all others incorporate...)
That's right, an adjudicated 2A Individual Right will directly apply in CA and in all other states, for the first time - ever. Oral Args are set for 01-15-2009 at 1:30PM in SF, and I invite anyone who gives a toot to come and witness this historic day.
Have you read Heller???? It left as much room as a government could ask for to enact "reasonable" controls.[xx(]