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No Law Prohibiting or Abridging, Shall Not Infring
The RTKBA. The Founders never intended for any government restriction and/or regulation of that right, no matter what the 22,000+ laws on the book claim; they are unconstitutional.
Jim, you may not like that, but it is reality nonetheless, and denial does not change reality.
The RTKBA. The Founders never intended for any government restriction and/or regulation of that right, no matter what the 22,000+ laws on the book claim; they are unconstitutional.
Jim, you may not like that, but it is reality nonetheless, and denial does not change reality.
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
Shane,
Put your money where your mouth is!!
Show me just ONE example now or ever where there have rights without SOME restrictions or exceptions. [}:)]
Jim, if I may;
Freedom of speech has no restriction other than criminal prosecution or civil damages that result from illegal or irresponsible use.
As noted previously, these criminal prosecutions or civil damages are the result of actions taken by the owner of the vocal cords.
These are not restrictions, they are consequences of illegal or irresponsible actions.
Firearm ownership is preemptively restricted. Vocal cord ownership is not. Misuse of either results in consequences as a result of that misuse, but only one is signalled out for infringement, ironically the very one that legally cannot be infringed.
Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.
Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them.
Here we have two people talking, they appear to actually be talking about the same subject.
Yet they are not.
Jims' circular logic "Give one example of Rights that are not restricted somehow"
Simply states the obvious ;
There ARE no Rights that haven't been restricted.
Now...instead of coming to the obvious conclusion, namely, `Shall Not be Infringed' means EXACTLY what it says, he unhesitatingly accepts those restrictions placed by very evil men as actually somehow being PART of the Second Amendment...and therefore it's a `good thing.
The good guy here is stating what SHOULD be completely obvious ;
`Shall Not be Infringed' places an utter BAN on the various governments to interfere with the free flow of weapons to Citizens...and EVERY SUCH INTERFERENCE IS TOTALLY AGAINST THE CONSTITUTION!!!
Both speaking English...yet they appear to be speaking two separate languages, from entirely different countries.
Perhaps they are.
quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
Shane,
Put your money where your mouth is!!
Show me just ONE example now or ever where there have rights without SOME restrictions or exceptions. [}:)]
Jim, if I may;
Freedom of speech has no restriction other than criminal prosecution or civil damages that result from illegal or irresponsible use.
As noted previously, these criminal prosecutions or civil damages are the result of actions taken by the owner of the vocal cords.
These are not restrictions, they are consequences of illegal or irresponsible actions.
Firearm ownership is preemptively restricted. Vocal cord ownership is not. Misuse of either results in consequences as a result of that misuse, but only one is signalled out for infringement, ironically the very one that legally cannot be infringed.
Your attempt to 'redefine' restrictions and exceptions don't fly. If what you say is correct the laws which make it illegal to own or carry a gun are not restrictions. Your logic is nothing short of silly.
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
Your attempt to 'redefine' restrictions and exceptions don't fly. If what you say is correct the laws which make it illegal to own or carry a gun are not restrictions. Your logic is nothing short of silly.
No re-definition at all on my side, Jim.
You are comparing laws that penalize dangerous and damaging behavior (laws that already apply to improper firearm usage, by the way) to laws that restrict possession, ownership, etc.
It is you and gun-ban advocates that have distorted the definition of restriction by comparing the peaceful owning and carrying of a firearm to the incitement of violence or panic.
Only speech and writing that damage someone or something are punishable. In most places, simply carrying a firearm is punishable. I do not believe you honestly equate the two.
Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.
Mr. McManus, that is just an observation and conclusion drawn long analysis of how people behave on the internet. Jim (no offense, Jim, for referring to you in 3rd person) seems like a good guy, just a little misguided and, well, what I said before. Never too late for a correction.
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
Your attempt to 'redefine' restrictions and exceptions don't fly. If what you say is correct the laws which make it illegal to own or carry a gun are not restrictions. Your logic is nothing short of silly.
So, Jim:
You've now had plenty of time to think about this. Let me summarize:
You say that laws that penalize yelling 'fire' in a theater are restrictions comparable to laws that make it illegal to own or carry a firearm.
I say that laws that penalize yelling 'fire' in a theater are restrictions comparable to laws that make it illegal to fire a pistol in a theater.
I would really like to know why you feel this comparison is silly.
Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.
I have been away for the last week with work and whatever free time I could get, hunting in the last week of the season. I had been thinking about the discussions about freedom, NIC's and 4473's. I wrote the following this morning, please forgive its rambling nature, but it does have a point.
I was sitting in a tree stand late last Monday afternoon. A 12 ga. slug gun lay across my lap. It was quiet, cold and I should have been in the office working on sales quotes, but life is short and this was a better use of my time. I like to be alone in the woods; in the solitude you have time to think. I was thinking about my family and the future my little boys face in this country. I thought about the discussions on this board. I rarely get involved in them because of family demands, work and being on the road a lot. This thread however comes at a time when I am trying to get straight about how to face the future.
In this post-Christian society, we can no longer depend on a common understanding of what is right and wrong. We certainly are at a place in our society where common civility, decency and commonsense are in short supply. The need for more and more laws is based on this loss of a common understanding that is our Judeo-Christian heritage. The truths that Thou shall not kill, Thou Shall not steal and Thou shall not have any other gods but Me, etc. This along with marriage being for one man, and one woman till death do they part are just some of the simple beliefs held for so long by the majority. We also understood that when you murder someone; you face death or long years in prison, swift and sure. The truth of Honor your mother and father and respect your elders have been replaced by a nihilistic, anything goes youth culture. These and many other truths that were commonly held as self-evident have been lost and their loss has created the need for more and more laws to govern every form of behavior. This is because when people will not govern their own actions, society will step in and try to do it for them.
I believe that the words "shall not infringe" in the 2A mean just that. I also believe that as long as our society continues down the path of moral and ethical decay we will see more and more laws and restrictions that infringe on many of our constitutional rights as government attempts to keep order. Tyranny rushes in to fill the void left by the decay of a society. True freedom will only return if and when the people of this country return to the truths that provided a bedrock on which to form a civil society.
How will we ever return to those truths?
I have clear ideas of my own, but what are your thoughts?
quote:Originally posted by Matchshot
I have been away for the last week with work and whatever free time I could get, hunting in the last week of the season. I had been thinking about the discussions about freedom, NIC's and 4473's. I wrote the following this morning, please forgive its rambling nature, but it does have a point.
I was sitting in a tree stand late last Monday afternoon. A 12 ga. slug gun lay across my lap. It was quiet, cold and I should have been in the office working on sales quotes, but life is short and this was a better use of my time. I like to be alone in the woods; in the solitude you have time to think. I was thinking about my family and the future my little boys face in this country. I thought about the discussions on this board. I rarely get involved in them because of family demands, work and being on the road a lot. This thread however comes at a time when I am trying to get straight about how to face the future.
In this post-Christian society, we can no longer depend on a common understanding of what is right and wrong. We certainly are at a place in our society where common civility, decency and commonsense are in short supply. The need for more and more laws is based on this loss of a common understanding that is our Judeo-Christian heritage. The truths that Thou shall not kill, Thou Shall not steal and Thou shall not have any other gods but Me, etc. This along with marriage being for one man, and one woman till death do they part are just some of the simple beliefs held for so long by the majority. We also understood that when you murder someone; you face death or long years in prison, swift and sure. The truth of Honor your mother and father and respect your elders have been replaced by a nihilistic, anything goes youth culture. These and many other truths that were commonly held as self-evident have been lost and their loss has created the need for more and more laws to govern every form of behavior. This is because when people will not govern their own actions, society will step in and try to do it for them.
I believe that the words "shall not infringe" in the 2A mean just that. I also believe that as long as our society continues down the path of moral and ethical decay we will see more and more laws and restrictions that infringe on many of our constitutional rights as government attempts to keep order. Tyranny rushes in to fill the void left by the decay of a society. True freedom will only return if and when the people of this country return to the truths that provided a bedrock on which to form a civil society.
How will we ever return to those truths?
I have clear ideas of my own, but what are your thoughts?
In red above. Sorry Sir, but you are making a huge mistake. I thought you had already learned a hard lesson in that the only "thoughts" that are valued here are those approved of by the local *. The * simply cannot tolerate dissent.
quote:In red above. Sorry Sir, but you are making a huge mistake. I thought you had already learned a hard lesson in that the only "thoughts" that are valued here are those approved of by the local *. The * simply cannot tolerate dissent.
Dissent is fine, but in your case Judas, your stupidity and absolute lack of any principle and ability to be trusted, can no longer be ignored. You won't allow it. Here's why...
Tis better to be thought a fool, than open your mouth and remove all doubt.
You just wouldn't shutup. Now there is no doubt. Thank yourself.
Also, I thank you. It is a good lesson that needs to be taught occasionally, the lesson that you may think you can trust somebody, but maybe not-be careful....tr's are everywhere just waiting to plant the knife. I just hope if we cross paths, I can sniff you out
quote:
I have clear ideas of my own, but what are your thoughts?
In red above. Sorry Sir, but you are making a huge mistake. I thought you had already learned a hard lesson in that the only "thoughts" that are valued here are those approved of by the local *. The * simply cannot tolerate dissent.
[/quote]
I understand. I am asking how do we get to that society that the founders intended?
quote:Originally posted by jpwolf
Dissent is fine, but in your case Judas, your stupidity and absolute lack of any principle and ability to be trusted, can no longer be ignored. You won't allow it. Here's why...
Tis better to be thought a fool, than open your mouth and remove all doubt.
You just wouldn't shutup. Now there is no doubt. Thank yourself.
I am sorry that you did not understand. I believe that our society is giving up its rights by falling away from the bedrock ideas that our founders put forth. Can this society get back to those ideals? Simple dissent, writing to the local paper or to our elected officials doesn't do much good.
I can't answer your question Chris. I had hope when RP entered the race for potus , that America would wake up, that God was throwing us one last chance so-to-speak. Now what?
Chris, that reply was directed at a troll, not you. Please go back, I did reply to your question as best as I could, which wasn't very good. Sorry for the confusion.
I agree with your premise, I just don't have an answer that anyone likes to hear.
Matchshot ;
If you can mangage to ignore the trash mouthed by the collectivists that infest America...some pretty close.
Congratulations on your solitude...and using it to very good advantage.
We hereabout vary quite a bit over what the process should be for the future.
I can and will state my opinion.
I made it my business many years ago to look into all those demons you mentioned in your excellent post.
It became my belief after many years that the system had become so corrupted that there was no longer any hope to restore it by conventional means.
I harp on the Second Amendment simply because one man cannot hope to reach his arms across the massive injustices that are perpetrated daily against the Citizens of this country by those in authority.
Plus ..those same authorities PROHIBIT Citizens from tending to the animals that freely roam the streets.
I believe that the only solution is to step back and allow those in authority to freely follow their instincts ..which are akin to the lowest, common street criminal. Except street criminals are brave enough to stick a gun in the victims side.....
Things MUST get far worse in this country...
Then the Founders taught us how and WHY to deal with tyranny.
quote:Originally posted by jpwolf
I can't answer your question Chris. I had hope when RP entered the race for potus , that America would wake up, that God was throwing us one last chance so-to-speak. Now what?
Jeff,
Unfortunately, I think we are too far down the road of decay. Even if RP had been elected, there are too many laws and too many people invested in keeping us under those laws.
I believe that God's laws are above all authority. I believe also that our founding fathers based our country's founding principles in those laws. As we have turned from God so too we have turned from those principles.
I didn't come to this board looking for a fight but a discussion. Perhaps I am a fool for coming here. I will say though,between being called a traitor and a fool (among other things) there were some well thought through arguments that got me thinking in the last week. I agree that the meaning of "will not infringe" is clear. I am trying to figure is it possible to the point where the majority of society believes the same.
quote:My prayer is that we will see an awakening that can only be divinely inspired.
I too pray for that.
Meanwhile..I urge ALL to gather supplies and prepare for hard times that are here...not 'COMING.'
The problem with 'prayer' ?
Our churches are filled with 501(C3s)...and they no longer serve the Lords words plain and unvarnished.
The Revolution was led partially from the pulpit ...you can bet your gippy there will be NONE of that, today. The Preachers are mostly instruments of the government, today....
I am sorry for your hard times here..I am quite sure I am the main culprit.
Sometimes information...and honesty..is brutal. You no doubt are the injured party here..but I extend the hand of friendship if you truly have considered the situation ...and concluded that the entity WRONG here is the government...and not those of us demanding Constitutional principles.
quote:Originally posted by Matchshot
I have been away for the last week with work and whatever free time I could get, hunting in the last week of the season. I had been thinking about the discussions about freedom, NIC's and 4473's. I wrote the following this morning, please forgive its rambling nature, but it does have a point.
I was sitting in a tree stand late last Monday afternoon. A 12 ga. slug gun lay across my lap. It was quiet, cold and I should have been in the office working on sales quotes, but life is short and this was a better use of my time. I like to be alone in the woods; in the solitude you have time to think. I was thinking about my family and the future my little boys face in this country. I thought about the discussions on this board. I rarely get involved in them because of family demands, work and being on the road a lot. This thread however comes at a time when I am trying to get straight about how to face the future.
In this post-Christian society, we can no longer depend on a common understanding of what is right and wrong. We certainly are at a place in our society where common civility, decency and commonsense are in short supply. The need for more and more laws is based on this loss of a common understanding that is our Judeo-Christian heritage. The truths that Thou shall not kill, Thou Shall not steal and Thou shall not have any other gods but Me, etc. This along with marriage being for one man, and one woman till death do they part are just some of the simple beliefs held for so long by the majority. We also understood that when you murder someone; you face death or long years in prison, swift and sure. The truth of Honor your mother and father and respect your elders have been replaced by a nihilistic, anything goes youth culture. These and many other truths that were commonly held as self-evident have been lost and their loss has created the need for more and more laws to govern every form of behavior. This is because when people will not govern their own actions, society will step in and try to do it for them.
I believe that the words "shall not infringe" in the 2A mean just that. I also believe that as long as our society continues down the path of moral and ethical decay we will see more and more laws and restrictions that infringe on many of our constitutional rights as government attempts to keep order. Tyranny rushes in to fill the void left by the decay of a society. True freedom will only return if and when the people of this country return to the truths that provided a bedrock on which to form a civil society.
How will we ever return to those truths?
I have clear ideas of my own, but what are your thoughts?
I do the same. The further I am from people the closer I feel to God and I do ALOT of thinking then as well.[8D]
What you said is correct to a degree, but many use this situation as an excuse to disarm us. Those in power know they have no real power as long as their 'subjects' are allowed to be armed. Thus they use any excuse and every opportunity to try and disarm them. This has been the case throughout history. Those responsible for founding this nation witnessed this first hand, thus the Bill of Rights, and more specifically the 2nd Amendment!!!
Many in this country are losing sight of the fundamentals of freedom and those in power are taking full advantage of this. The Internet is a powerful tool because information is a powerful tool and we MUST use this tool to educate those who are the least bit receptive to what is going on in our government and try and halt and reverse this process. IT TAKES ALL KINDS TO DO THIS! In this endeavor we are all ONE. We can debate and/or argue about degree and semantics, but we all MUST try and educate the many idiots out there as to what is happening and why!!![:(!]
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
I do the same. The further I am from people the closer I feel to God and I do ALOT of thinking then as well.[8D]
What you said is correct to a degree, but many use this situation as an excuse to disarm us. Those in power know they have no real power as long as their 'subjects' are allowed to be armed. Thus they use any excuse and every opportunity to try and disarm them. This has been the case throughout history. Those responsible for founding this nation witnessed this first hand, thus the Bill of Rights, and more specifically the 2nd Amendment!!!
Many in this country are losing sight of the fundamentals of freedom and those in power are taking full advantage of this. The Internet is a powerful tool because information is a powerful tool and we MUST use this tool to educate those who are the least bet receptive to what is going on in our government and try and halt and reverse this process. IT TAKES ALL KINDS TO DO THIS! In this endeavor we are all ONE. We can debate and/or argue about degree and semantics, but we all MUST try and educate the many idiots out there as to what is happening and why!!![:(!]
Many suggest that a little infringement is OK. They suggest that it is no different than laws that punish dangerous or damaging behavior and actions.
Sadly, we are not all one, because the degree that some wish to compromise re-defines the words 'people' and 'infringe', thus purposefully re-defining the intent and meaning of the 2nd. Many will never be one with those that believe in the concept of 'free enough'.
Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.
quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
I do the same. The further I am from people the closer I feel to God and I do ALOT of thinking then as well.[8D]
What you said is correct to a degree, but many use this situation as an excuse to disarm us. Those in power know they have no real power as long as their 'subjects' are allowed to be armed. Thus they use any excuse and every opportunity to try and disarm them. This has been the case throughout history. Those responsible for founding this nation witnessed this first hand, thus the Bill of Rights, and more specifically the 2nd Amendment!!!
Many in this country are losing sight of the fundamentals of freedom and those in power are taking full advantage of this. The Internet is a powerful tool because information is a powerful tool and we MUST use this tool to educate those who are the least bet receptive to what is going on in our government and try and halt and reverse this process. IT TAKES ALL KINDS TO DO THIS! In this endeavor we are all ONE. We can debate and/or argue about degree and semantics, but we all MUST try and educate the many idiots out there as to what is happening and why!!![:(!]
Many suggest that a little infringement is OK. They suggest that it is no different than laws that punish dangerous or damaging behavior and actions.
Sadly, we are not all one, because the degree that some wish to compromise re-defines the words 'people' and 'infringe', thus purposefully re-defining the intent and meaning of the 2nd. Many will never be one with those that believe in the concept of 'free enough'.
Well you and those with the 'ideal' mind set will NEVER be free because you are trying to achieve perfection in an imperfect world. Thus the difference between 'ideal' and 'real'. The Founding Fathers were 'ideal' in their believes, but 'real' in their application. This is the way I see it. They would laugh at all of you who think you will ever even come close to your 'ideal' because they had not lost touch with the real world and had common sense. Going to war does that to you, I know this from experance![:(!]
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
Well you and those with the 'ideal' mind set will NEVER be free because you are trying to achieve perfection in an imperfect world. Thus the difference between 'ideal' and 'real'. The Founding Fathers were 'ideal' in their believes, but 'real' in their application. This is the way I see it. They would laugh at all of you who think you will ever even come close to your 'ideal' because they had not lost touch with the real world and had common sense. Going to war does that to you, I know this from experance![:(!]
Thus the statement that we are not one, Jim.
My experience was also one of compromise in this regard, because it was real, and I gained comfort in accepting that it was the best I could do. No more settling. Yes I know that in my lifetime I will probably not see the ideal. So What? If we give up and settle now, no one will ever have the hope of the ideal.
I would never pretend to suggest what the founders would think of someone with your beliefs, Jim. How do think they would have considered someone who stated that Tom's brilliant letter to King George was the ideal, but face it, guys, it is not reality?
Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.
Didn't feel a thing. When your right the blows don't connect!!![;)] I don't believe in compromising my believes any more than you do yours. It just so happens I am a realist so my believes are realistic, not idealistic! I refuse to compromise them and fight to attain them. But the difference is I have a chance at success and you have no chance at success!!![:D]
My 'believe' of what the FF would do in today's world are much more accurate than are yours because they were real 'thinkers', not just rigid 'idealists/believers'![;)]
Some would suggest that fitting one's beliefs to reality is compromise in and of itself.
I would suggest that such a compromise will deny freedom to those that follow us.
We now see that the re-definition of restriction, and the consequent re-definition of the 2nd Amendment has resulted in a concept of success that reserves to government the power to control firearm ownership.
Success is simple when one sets goals that are acceptable to his opponents. If memory serves, that is how Neville Chamberlain achieved success.
Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.
Like I said before. I must be doing it right because the 'idealist' on both sides of this issue disagree with me!!![8D]
You want 'no restrictions' and they want the opposite 'total restriction'. Reality is somewhere between the two 'ideals', but much closer to your 'ideal' than their 'ideal'!! Simply because your ideal is based on the Constitution. Their ideal as no bases or logic to back it up what so ever!
quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
Some would suggest that fitting one's beliefs to reality is compromise in and of itself.
I would suggest that such a compromise will deny freedom to those that follow us.
We now see that the re-definition of restriction, and the consequent re-definition of the 2nd Amendment has resulted in a concept of success that reserves to government the power to control firearm ownership.
Success is simple when one sets goals that are acceptable to his opponents. If memory serves, that is how Neville Chamberlain achieved success.
BTW Jim, Don's "ideal" isn't based on the Constitution, yours is. His is the Constitution. Light years difference. And what a realistic concept, eh? The document already exists, and the document IS the USofA. What is more realistic than that?
It is not that we 'want' no restrictions, rather we 'demand' no restrictions. That's right; we, 'the people', DEMAND. 'And just why do you think you can demand anything of the government?' Here ya go; words of wisdom from the past:
"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,..."
Pretty clear who is the master and who is the servant, dontcha think?
quote:Originally posted by wsfiredude
You want 'no restrictions'
No, Jim, that is incorrect.
It is not that we 'want' no restrictions, rather we 'demand' no restrictions. That's right; we, 'the people', DEMAND. 'And just why do you think you can demand anything of the government?' Here ya go; words of wisdom from the past:
"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,..."
Pretty clear who is the master and who is the servant, dontcha think?
To put it in today's terms,
'We da man'
Thank you again Shane for proving my point. Demand away. Just like those who 'demand' no more death for drunk drivers, or 'demand' no more deaths from cancer, or 'demand' no more violence! Keep on demanding your 'ideal'. It will only show how unrealistic you are!!!![;)]
You folks and Obama are keeping elitism alive in this country!!![}:)]
Thank you again Shane for proving my point. Demand away. Just like those who 'demand' no more death for drunk drivers, or 'demand' no more deaths from cancer, or 'demand' no more violence! Keep on demanding your 'ideal'. It will only show how unrealistic you are!!!!
You folks and Obama are keeping elitism alive in this country!!!
The freedom from being killed by an intoxicated motorist is not a right enumerated in the BOR.
The freedom from being stricken with cancer(s) is not a right enumerated in the BOR.
The freedom from violence is not a right enumerated in the BOR.
The RTKBA is a right of the people enumerated in the BOR, and it shall not be infringed. Period. Read it and weep.
quote:Originally posted by wsfiredude
Thank you again Shane for proving my point. Demand away. Just like those who 'demand' no more death for drunk drivers, or 'demand' no more deaths from cancer, or 'demand' no more violence! Keep on demanding your 'ideal'. It will only show how unrealistic you are!!!!
You folks and Obama are keeping elitism alive in this country!!!
The freedom from being killed by an intoxicated motorist is not a right enumerated in the BOR.
The freedom from being stricken with cancer(s) is not a right enumerated in the BOR.
The freedom from violence is not a right enumerated in the BOR.
The RTKBA is a right of the people enumerated in the BOR, and it shall not be infringed. Period. Read it and weep.
Thanks again Shane for proofing my point even further. Reality don't care what you base your 'idealistic' believe on. Idealism is idealism regardless what it is based on. You think your believes are 'special' because you base it on a government document! If this were a perfect world idealism would prevail over reality, BUT THIS IS NOT A PERFECT WORLD, even though you can't or won't except this fact!!! Denial does not change reality!
Thanks again Shane for proofing my point even further. Reality don't care what you base your 'idealistic' believe on. Idealism is idealism regardless what it is based on. You think your believes are 'special' because you base it on a government document!
Wrong. I do not for one second believe my rights come from the government. A lot of folks do, but that type of mentality is pure poison.
If this were a perfect world idealism would prevail over reality, BUT THIS IS NOT A PERFECT WORLD, even though you can't or won't except this fact!!! Denial does not change reality!
You are exactly right. Folks can deny the true meaning of the RTKBA, but it in no way changes the reality that the RTKBA is a right free from intrusion, infringement, mandates, and regulation.
Let me ask you a question, Jim, specifically relating to this 'reality' you speak of.
If one chooses to carry a weapon as he wishes without begging permission to do so by some entity, is that reality?
If one chooses to own whatever arms he chooses, including those which expel more than one round with a single pull of the trigger, without begging permission to do so, is that reality?
Comments
You got that wrong.
Show me just ONE example
Ask, and ye shall receive.
The RTKBA. The Founders never intended for any government restriction and/or regulation of that right, no matter what the 22,000+ laws on the book claim; they are unconstitutional.
Jim, you may not like that, but it is reality nonetheless, and denial does not change reality.
SHOW ME ONE EXAMPLE PLEASE!!!!![}:)]
SHOW ME ONE EXAMPLE PLEASE!!!!![}:)]
Ask, and ye shall receive.
The RTKBA. The Founders never intended for any government restriction and/or regulation of that right, no matter what the 22,000+ laws on the book claim; they are unconstitutional.
Jim, you may not like that, but it is reality nonetheless, and denial does not change reality.
Shane,
Put your money where your mouth is!!
Show me just ONE example now or ever where there have rights without SOME restrictions or exceptions. [}:)]
Jim, if I may;
Freedom of speech has no restriction other than criminal prosecution or civil damages that result from illegal or irresponsible use.
As noted previously, these criminal prosecutions or civil damages are the result of actions taken by the owner of the vocal cords.
These are not restrictions, they are consequences of illegal or irresponsible actions.
Firearm ownership is preemptively restricted. Vocal cord ownership is not. Misuse of either results in consequences as a result of that misuse, but only one is signalled out for infringement, ironically the very one that legally cannot be infringed.
Brad Steele
Thomas Paine 1775
Yet they are not.
Jims' circular logic "Give one example of Rights that are not restricted somehow"
Simply states the obvious ;
There ARE no Rights that haven't been restricted.
Now...instead of coming to the obvious conclusion, namely, `Shall Not be Infringed' means EXACTLY what it says, he unhesitatingly accepts those restrictions placed by very evil men as actually somehow being PART of the Second Amendment...and therefore it's a `good thing.
The good guy here is stating what SHOULD be completely obvious ;
`Shall Not be Infringed' places an utter BAN on the various governments to interfere with the free flow of weapons to Citizens...and EVERY SUCH INTERFERENCE IS TOTALLY AGAINST THE CONSTITUTION!!!
Both speaking English...yet they appear to be speaking two separate languages, from entirely different countries.
Perhaps they are.
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
Shane,
Put your money where your mouth is!!
Show me just ONE example now or ever where there have rights without SOME restrictions or exceptions. [}:)]
Jim, if I may;
Freedom of speech has no restriction other than criminal prosecution or civil damages that result from illegal or irresponsible use.
As noted previously, these criminal prosecutions or civil damages are the result of actions taken by the owner of the vocal cords.
These are not restrictions, they are consequences of illegal or irresponsible actions.
Firearm ownership is preemptively restricted. Vocal cord ownership is not. Misuse of either results in consequences as a result of that misuse, but only one is signalled out for infringement, ironically the very one that legally cannot be infringed.
Your attempt to 'redefine' restrictions and exceptions don't fly. If what you say is correct the laws which make it illegal to own or carry a gun are not restrictions. Your logic is nothing short of silly.
Your attempt to 'redefine' restrictions and exceptions don't fly. If what you say is correct the laws which make it illegal to own or carry a gun are not restrictions. Your logic is nothing short of silly.
No re-definition at all on my side, Jim.
You are comparing laws that penalize dangerous and damaging behavior (laws that already apply to improper firearm usage, by the way) to laws that restrict possession, ownership, etc.
It is you and gun-ban advocates that have distorted the definition of restriction by comparing the peaceful owning and carrying of a firearm to the incitement of violence or panic.
Only speech and writing that damage someone or something are punishable. In most places, simply carrying a firearm is punishable. I do not believe you honestly equate the two.
Brad Steele
Don, JR's point being here is not search for answers but proving of others wrong to feed his ego. Period.
I had not thought that to be the case with Jim, Rock, but I must confess that this one has me stumped.
Brad Steele
Your attempt to 'redefine' restrictions and exceptions don't fly. If what you say is correct the laws which make it illegal to own or carry a gun are not restrictions. Your logic is nothing short of silly.
So, Jim:
You've now had plenty of time to think about this. Let me summarize:
You say that laws that penalize yelling 'fire' in a theater are restrictions comparable to laws that make it illegal to own or carry a firearm.
I say that laws that penalize yelling 'fire' in a theater are restrictions comparable to laws that make it illegal to fire a pistol in a theater.
I would really like to know why you feel this comparison is silly.
Brad Steele
I was sitting in a tree stand late last Monday afternoon. A 12 ga. slug gun lay across my lap. It was quiet, cold and I should have been in the office working on sales quotes, but life is short and this was a better use of my time. I like to be alone in the woods; in the solitude you have time to think. I was thinking about my family and the future my little boys face in this country. I thought about the discussions on this board. I rarely get involved in them because of family demands, work and being on the road a lot. This thread however comes at a time when I am trying to get straight about how to face the future.
In this post-Christian society, we can no longer depend on a common understanding of what is right and wrong. We certainly are at a place in our society where common civility, decency and commonsense are in short supply. The need for more and more laws is based on this loss of a common understanding that is our Judeo-Christian heritage. The truths that Thou shall not kill, Thou Shall not steal and Thou shall not have any other gods but Me, etc. This along with marriage being for one man, and one woman till death do they part are just some of the simple beliefs held for so long by the majority. We also understood that when you murder someone; you face death or long years in prison, swift and sure. The truth of Honor your mother and father and respect your elders have been replaced by a nihilistic, anything goes youth culture. These and many other truths that were commonly held as self-evident have been lost and their loss has created the need for more and more laws to govern every form of behavior. This is because when people will not govern their own actions, society will step in and try to do it for them.
I believe that the words "shall not infringe" in the 2A mean just that. I also believe that as long as our society continues down the path of moral and ethical decay we will see more and more laws and restrictions that infringe on many of our constitutional rights as government attempts to keep order. Tyranny rushes in to fill the void left by the decay of a society. True freedom will only return if and when the people of this country return to the truths that provided a bedrock on which to form a civil society.
How will we ever return to those truths?
I have clear ideas of my own, but what are your thoughts?
I have been away for the last week with work and whatever free time I could get, hunting in the last week of the season. I had been thinking about the discussions about freedom, NIC's and 4473's. I wrote the following this morning, please forgive its rambling nature, but it does have a point.
I was sitting in a tree stand late last Monday afternoon. A 12 ga. slug gun lay across my lap. It was quiet, cold and I should have been in the office working on sales quotes, but life is short and this was a better use of my time. I like to be alone in the woods; in the solitude you have time to think. I was thinking about my family and the future my little boys face in this country. I thought about the discussions on this board. I rarely get involved in them because of family demands, work and being on the road a lot. This thread however comes at a time when I am trying to get straight about how to face the future.
In this post-Christian society, we can no longer depend on a common understanding of what is right and wrong. We certainly are at a place in our society where common civility, decency and commonsense are in short supply. The need for more and more laws is based on this loss of a common understanding that is our Judeo-Christian heritage. The truths that Thou shall not kill, Thou Shall not steal and Thou shall not have any other gods but Me, etc. This along with marriage being for one man, and one woman till death do they part are just some of the simple beliefs held for so long by the majority. We also understood that when you murder someone; you face death or long years in prison, swift and sure. The truth of Honor your mother and father and respect your elders have been replaced by a nihilistic, anything goes youth culture. These and many other truths that were commonly held as self-evident have been lost and their loss has created the need for more and more laws to govern every form of behavior. This is because when people will not govern their own actions, society will step in and try to do it for them.
I believe that the words "shall not infringe" in the 2A mean just that. I also believe that as long as our society continues down the path of moral and ethical decay we will see more and more laws and restrictions that infringe on many of our constitutional rights as government attempts to keep order. Tyranny rushes in to fill the void left by the decay of a society. True freedom will only return if and when the people of this country return to the truths that provided a bedrock on which to form a civil society.
How will we ever return to those truths?
I have clear ideas of my own, but what are your thoughts?
In red above. Sorry Sir, but you are making a huge mistake. I thought you had already learned a hard lesson in that the only "thoughts" that are valued here are those approved of by the local *. The * simply cannot tolerate dissent.
Dissent is fine, but in your case Judas, your stupidity and absolute lack of any principle and ability to be trusted, can no longer be ignored. You won't allow it. Here's why...
Tis better to be thought a fool, than open your mouth and remove all doubt.
You just wouldn't shutup. Now there is no doubt. Thank yourself.
Also, I thank you. It is a good lesson that needs to be taught occasionally, the lesson that you may think you can trust somebody, but maybe not-be careful....tr's are everywhere just waiting to plant the knife. I just hope if we cross paths, I can sniff you out
I have clear ideas of my own, but what are your thoughts?
In red above. Sorry Sir, but you are making a huge mistake. I thought you had already learned a hard lesson in that the only "thoughts" that are valued here are those approved of by the local *. The * simply cannot tolerate dissent.
[/quote]
I understand. I am asking how do we get to that society that the founders intended?
Dissent is fine, but in your case Judas, your stupidity and absolute lack of any principle and ability to be trusted, can no longer be ignored. You won't allow it. Here's why...
Tis better to be thought a fool, than open your mouth and remove all doubt.
You just wouldn't shutup. Now there is no doubt. Thank yourself.
I am sorry that you did not understand. I believe that our society is giving up its rights by falling away from the bedrock ideas that our founders put forth. Can this society get back to those ideals? Simple dissent, writing to the local paper or to our elected officials doesn't do much good.
I agree with your premise, I just don't have an answer that anyone likes to hear.
If you can mangage to ignore the trash mouthed by the collectivists that infest America...some pretty close.
Congratulations on your solitude...and using it to very good advantage.
We hereabout vary quite a bit over what the process should be for the future.
I can and will state my opinion.
I made it my business many years ago to look into all those demons you mentioned in your excellent post.
It became my belief after many years that the system had become so corrupted that there was no longer any hope to restore it by conventional means.
I harp on the Second Amendment simply because one man cannot hope to reach his arms across the massive injustices that are perpetrated daily against the Citizens of this country by those in authority.
Plus ..those same authorities PROHIBIT Citizens from tending to the animals that freely roam the streets.
I believe that the only solution is to step back and allow those in authority to freely follow their instincts ..which are akin to the lowest, common street criminal. Except street criminals are brave enough to stick a gun in the victims side.....
Things MUST get far worse in this country...
Then the Founders taught us how and WHY to deal with tyranny.
I can't answer your question Chris. I had hope when RP entered the race for potus , that America would wake up, that God was throwing us one last chance so-to-speak. Now what?
Jeff,
Unfortunately, I think we are too far down the road of decay. Even if RP had been elected, there are too many laws and too many people invested in keeping us under those laws.
I believe that God's laws are above all authority. I believe also that our founding fathers based our country's founding principles in those laws. As we have turned from God so too we have turned from those principles.
I didn't come to this board looking for a fight but a discussion. Perhaps I am a fool for coming here. I will say though,between being called a traitor and a fool (among other things) there were some well thought through arguments that got me thinking in the last week. I agree that the meaning of "will not infringe" is clear. I am trying to figure is it possible to the point where the majority of society believes the same.
Things MUST get far worse in this country...
[/quote]
Highball:
Although it seems to be headed that way, I hope you are wrong. Tyrannys have fallen without a shot fired and societies do change.
My prayer is that we will see an awakening that can only be divinely inspired.
How will we ever return to those truths?[/b]
How indeed?
Voting and voicing an opinion via email, phone, and letters hasn't worked.
They do NOT listen, and it just keeps getting WORSE.
Hopes and prayers haven't helped.
Barring divine intervention........well.........
I too pray for that.
Meanwhile..I urge ALL to gather supplies and prepare for hard times that are here...not 'COMING.'
The problem with 'prayer' ?
Our churches are filled with 501(C3s)...and they no longer serve the Lords words plain and unvarnished.
The Revolution was led partially from the pulpit ...you can bet your gippy there will be NONE of that, today. The Preachers are mostly instruments of the government, today....
I am sorry for your hard times here..I am quite sure I am the main culprit.
Sometimes information...and honesty..is brutal. You no doubt are the injured party here..but I extend the hand of friendship if you truly have considered the situation ...and concluded that the entity WRONG here is the government...and not those of us demanding Constitutional principles.
I have been away for the last week with work and whatever free time I could get, hunting in the last week of the season. I had been thinking about the discussions about freedom, NIC's and 4473's. I wrote the following this morning, please forgive its rambling nature, but it does have a point.
I was sitting in a tree stand late last Monday afternoon. A 12 ga. slug gun lay across my lap. It was quiet, cold and I should have been in the office working on sales quotes, but life is short and this was a better use of my time. I like to be alone in the woods; in the solitude you have time to think. I was thinking about my family and the future my little boys face in this country. I thought about the discussions on this board. I rarely get involved in them because of family demands, work and being on the road a lot. This thread however comes at a time when I am trying to get straight about how to face the future.
In this post-Christian society, we can no longer depend on a common understanding of what is right and wrong. We certainly are at a place in our society where common civility, decency and commonsense are in short supply. The need for more and more laws is based on this loss of a common understanding that is our Judeo-Christian heritage. The truths that Thou shall not kill, Thou Shall not steal and Thou shall not have any other gods but Me, etc. This along with marriage being for one man, and one woman till death do they part are just some of the simple beliefs held for so long by the majority. We also understood that when you murder someone; you face death or long years in prison, swift and sure. The truth of Honor your mother and father and respect your elders have been replaced by a nihilistic, anything goes youth culture. These and many other truths that were commonly held as self-evident have been lost and their loss has created the need for more and more laws to govern every form of behavior. This is because when people will not govern their own actions, society will step in and try to do it for them.
I believe that the words "shall not infringe" in the 2A mean just that. I also believe that as long as our society continues down the path of moral and ethical decay we will see more and more laws and restrictions that infringe on many of our constitutional rights as government attempts to keep order. Tyranny rushes in to fill the void left by the decay of a society. True freedom will only return if and when the people of this country return to the truths that provided a bedrock on which to form a civil society.
How will we ever return to those truths?
I have clear ideas of my own, but what are your thoughts?
I do the same. The further I am from people the closer I feel to God and I do ALOT of thinking then as well.[8D]
What you said is correct to a degree, but many use this situation as an excuse to disarm us. Those in power know they have no real power as long as their 'subjects' are allowed to be armed. Thus they use any excuse and every opportunity to try and disarm them. This has been the case throughout history. Those responsible for founding this nation witnessed this first hand, thus the Bill of Rights, and more specifically the 2nd Amendment!!!
Many in this country are losing sight of the fundamentals of freedom and those in power are taking full advantage of this. The Internet is a powerful tool because information is a powerful tool and we MUST use this tool to educate those who are the least bit receptive to what is going on in our government and try and halt and reverse this process. IT TAKES ALL KINDS TO DO THIS! In this endeavor we are all ONE. We can debate and/or argue about degree and semantics, but we all MUST try and educate the many idiots out there as to what is happening and why!!![:(!]
I do the same. The further I am from people the closer I feel to God and I do ALOT of thinking then as well.[8D]
What you said is correct to a degree, but many use this situation as an excuse to disarm us. Those in power know they have no real power as long as their 'subjects' are allowed to be armed. Thus they use any excuse and every opportunity to try and disarm them. This has been the case throughout history. Those responsible for founding this nation witnessed this first hand, thus the Bill of Rights, and more specifically the 2nd Amendment!!!
Many in this country are losing sight of the fundamentals of freedom and those in power are taking full advantage of this. The Internet is a powerful tool because information is a powerful tool and we MUST use this tool to educate those who are the least bet receptive to what is going on in our government and try and halt and reverse this process. IT TAKES ALL KINDS TO DO THIS! In this endeavor we are all ONE. We can debate and/or argue about degree and semantics, but we all MUST try and educate the many idiots out there as to what is happening and why!!![:(!]
Many suggest that a little infringement is OK. They suggest that it is no different than laws that punish dangerous or damaging behavior and actions.
Sadly, we are not all one, because the degree that some wish to compromise re-defines the words 'people' and 'infringe', thus purposefully re-defining the intent and meaning of the 2nd. Many will never be one with those that believe in the concept of 'free enough'.
Brad Steele
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
I do the same. The further I am from people the closer I feel to God and I do ALOT of thinking then as well.[8D]
What you said is correct to a degree, but many use this situation as an excuse to disarm us. Those in power know they have no real power as long as their 'subjects' are allowed to be armed. Thus they use any excuse and every opportunity to try and disarm them. This has been the case throughout history. Those responsible for founding this nation witnessed this first hand, thus the Bill of Rights, and more specifically the 2nd Amendment!!!
Many in this country are losing sight of the fundamentals of freedom and those in power are taking full advantage of this. The Internet is a powerful tool because information is a powerful tool and we MUST use this tool to educate those who are the least bet receptive to what is going on in our government and try and halt and reverse this process. IT TAKES ALL KINDS TO DO THIS! In this endeavor we are all ONE. We can debate and/or argue about degree and semantics, but we all MUST try and educate the many idiots out there as to what is happening and why!!![:(!]
Many suggest that a little infringement is OK. They suggest that it is no different than laws that punish dangerous or damaging behavior and actions.
Sadly, we are not all one, because the degree that some wish to compromise re-defines the words 'people' and 'infringe', thus purposefully re-defining the intent and meaning of the 2nd. Many will never be one with those that believe in the concept of 'free enough'.
Well you and those with the 'ideal' mind set will NEVER be free because you are trying to achieve perfection in an imperfect world. Thus the difference between 'ideal' and 'real'. The Founding Fathers were 'ideal' in their believes, but 'real' in their application. This is the way I see it. They would laugh at all of you who think you will ever even come close to your 'ideal' because they had not lost touch with the real world and had common sense. Going to war does that to you, I know this from experance![:(!]
Well you and those with the 'ideal' mind set will NEVER be free because you are trying to achieve perfection in an imperfect world. Thus the difference between 'ideal' and 'real'. The Founding Fathers were 'ideal' in their believes, but 'real' in their application. This is the way I see it. They would laugh at all of you who think you will ever even come close to your 'ideal' because they had not lost touch with the real world and had common sense. Going to war does that to you, I know this from experance![:(!]
Thus the statement that we are not one, Jim.
My experience was also one of compromise in this regard, because it was real, and I gained comfort in accepting that it was the best I could do. No more settling. Yes I know that in my lifetime I will probably not see the ideal. So What? If we give up and settle now, no one will ever have the hope of the ideal.
I would never pretend to suggest what the founders would think of someone with your beliefs, Jim. How do think they would have considered someone who stated that Tom's brilliant letter to King George was the ideal, but face it, guys, it is not reality?
Brad Steele
My 'believe' of what the FF would do in today's world are much more accurate than are yours because they were real 'thinkers', not just rigid 'idealists/believers'![;)]
I would suggest that such a compromise will deny freedom to those that follow us.
We now see that the re-definition of restriction, and the consequent re-definition of the 2nd Amendment has resulted in a concept of success that reserves to government the power to control firearm ownership.
Success is simple when one sets goals that are acceptable to his opponents. If memory serves, that is how Neville Chamberlain achieved success.
Brad Steele
You want 'no restrictions' and they want the opposite 'total restriction'. Reality is somewhere between the two 'ideals', but much closer to your 'ideal' than their 'ideal'!! Simply because your ideal is based on the Constitution. Their ideal as no bases or logic to back it up what so ever!
Some would suggest that fitting one's beliefs to reality is compromise in and of itself.
I would suggest that such a compromise will deny freedom to those that follow us.
We now see that the re-definition of restriction, and the consequent re-definition of the 2nd Amendment has resulted in a concept of success that reserves to government the power to control firearm ownership.
Success is simple when one sets goals that are acceptable to his opponents. If memory serves, that is how Neville Chamberlain achieved success.
another one[B)]*ouch*
No, Jim, that is incorrect.
It is not that we 'want' no restrictions, rather we 'demand' no restrictions. That's right; we, 'the people', DEMAND. 'And just why do you think you can demand anything of the government?' Here ya go; words of wisdom from the past:
"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,..."
Pretty clear who is the master and who is the servant, dontcha think?
To put it in today's terms,
'We da man'
You want 'no restrictions'
No, Jim, that is incorrect.
It is not that we 'want' no restrictions, rather we 'demand' no restrictions. That's right; we, 'the people', DEMAND. 'And just why do you think you can demand anything of the government?' Here ya go; words of wisdom from the past:
"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,..."
Pretty clear who is the master and who is the servant, dontcha think?
To put it in today's terms,
'We da man'
Thank you again Shane for proving my point. Demand away. Just like those who 'demand' no more death for drunk drivers, or 'demand' no more deaths from cancer, or 'demand' no more violence! Keep on demanding your 'ideal'. It will only show how unrealistic you are!!!![;)]
You folks and Obama are keeping elitism alive in this country!!![}:)]
You folks and Obama are keeping elitism alive in this country!!!
The freedom from being killed by an intoxicated motorist is not a right enumerated in the BOR.
The freedom from being stricken with cancer(s) is not a right enumerated in the BOR.
The freedom from violence is not a right enumerated in the BOR.
The RTKBA is a right of the people enumerated in the BOR, and it shall not be infringed. Period. Read it and weep.
Thank you again Shane for proving my point. Demand away. Just like those who 'demand' no more death for drunk drivers, or 'demand' no more deaths from cancer, or 'demand' no more violence! Keep on demanding your 'ideal'. It will only show how unrealistic you are!!!!
You folks and Obama are keeping elitism alive in this country!!!
The freedom from being killed by an intoxicated motorist is not a right enumerated in the BOR.
The freedom from being stricken with cancer(s) is not a right enumerated in the BOR.
The freedom from violence is not a right enumerated in the BOR.
The RTKBA is a right of the people enumerated in the BOR, and it shall not be infringed. Period. Read it and weep.
Thanks again Shane for proofing my point even further. Reality don't care what you base your 'idealistic' believe on. Idealism is idealism regardless what it is based on. You think your believes are 'special' because you base it on a government document! If this were a perfect world idealism would prevail over reality, BUT THIS IS NOT A PERFECT WORLD, even though you can't or won't except this fact!!! Denial does not change reality!
Wrong. I do not for one second believe my rights come from the government. A lot of folks do, but that type of mentality is pure poison.
If this were a perfect world idealism would prevail over reality, BUT THIS IS NOT A PERFECT WORLD, even though you can't or won't except this fact!!! Denial does not change reality!
You are exactly right. Folks can deny the true meaning of the RTKBA, but it in no way changes the reality that the RTKBA is a right free from intrusion, infringement, mandates, and regulation.
Let me ask you a question, Jim, specifically relating to this 'reality' you speak of.
If one chooses to carry a weapon as he wishes without begging permission to do so by some entity, is that reality?
If one chooses to own whatever arms he chooses, including those which expel more than one round with a single pull of the trigger, without begging permission to do so, is that reality?
I submit to you that it is.